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(Bleeding Cool)   Steven Moffat reveals what would have happened if David Tennant had stayed on for season 5 of Doctor Who. Hint: Doctor Teeth vs. the Red Menace   (bleedingcool.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Doctor Who, Steven Moffat, Eleventh Doctor, Tenth Doctor  
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4711 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Apr 2013 at 11:31 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-06 07:31:30 PM  

t3knomanser: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Rory was a real character with real emotions and a real history

More important, Rory had an actual character arc. He  really developed. He started as a nebbishly Arthur Dent character and evolved into a supreme badass. It did create situations where you had to wonder: "Why the hell is he still with Amy?" He definitely was far more committed to the relationship than she was.

While I think much of the hate towards Amy is misplaced, her character was  all over the place. I mean, seriously, she just took on whatever personality traits worked the best for her at the time.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: the most important girl in the universe ... AGAIN

This though, I really don't see. Amy wasn't the most important girl in the universe excepting her "Bad Wolf" moment at the end of her first series. At best, you've got the one exchange where the Doctor tells her that the most important thing in the universe is getting her sorted- not that  she's important, that solving the problem which she represents is important.

Her second series it gets a little bit stronger, where a plan is put in place to kidnap her unborn daughter and raise it and train it to kill the Doctor. Which is actually a completely insane plan. Like... why? How? If killing the Doctor is so important, there must be an approach that doesn't involve kidnapping his companion and stealing her baby so that you can steal the baby and raise it into a perfect assassin who can kill the Doctor. Oh, but River's got some time stuff, from being conceived in the TARDIS. Big whup. A Dalek blaster would end the Doctor nearly as quickly. Oh, he can regenerate? SHOOT HIM AGAIN.

*pantpantpant*

I've actually enjoyed the Moffat era overall, and adore Smith's Doctor, but it hasn't exactly been clever, lately.


You are particularly correct about the second series with Amy, but the whole crack in the universe thing was centered around her ... remember the Doctor asking over and over again: why are you so special, Amy Pond? in a clip destined for numerous adverts.  And yes, the second season's story arc was farking terrible.  So, yeah, this cult of religious zealots wants to kill the Doctor, so we're going to kidnap his companion's baby (assuming, of course, that we knew she was preggers in the first place), raise her inside of an astronaut suit for a bit, lost track of her, find her again, put her underwater, lure the Doctor to the lake, and then have her shoot him.  With a plan like that, what could go wrong?

Like Sherlock, Moffat chose style over substance, and the entire season was a complete pain in the ass.

I haven't liked Moffat much at all, save for an episode here and there, and that's a shame, because Matt Smith is working his ass off and is an excellent Doctor.  But he had Amy, and now it looks like we're doing the same Most Important Girl in the Universe thing with Clara (though I'm sure there will be another nonsensical twist in there).

And you're also right about Rory: he grew and expanded to the point where, in The Asylum of the Daleks, when we had their stupid divorce (a more contrived plot device I cannot think of), I initially thought: hell yes!  Go Rory!  Dump the girl with the thirteen-year-old's mentality!  Then they went the whole "I can't get pregnant" thing and ended up slapping my forehead.
 
2013-04-06 07:31:57 PM  

Valacirca: Also, are some of you honestly using the stupid BBCAmerica Amy intro as an actual reason to hate the character?  That's like hating a movie because a studio released a really bad trailer, its just dumb marketing.




Having to see the BBC America intro a few times, I can understand the hate.
Sad that American viewers had to put up with that.
On another note; tonight's episode was meh, although the singing was pleasant.
Hopefully the stories get better soon.
 
2013-04-06 07:34:44 PM  

WippitGuud: whizbangthedirtfarmer:Amy, though, was just irritating.  She swung from being horrified to childlike to flippant at the weirdest times, and, after the first few episodes, I thought Moffat was trying to create our first verifiable mentally ill companion.  Then I realized that she was there to be cute and to be a reason for the plots (the most important girl in the universe ... AGAIN).  When she fulfilled that purpose, she really didn't do much else in the episodes other than scream or offer a stupid one-liner.  It is telling that a wide number of Who fans were pleased to see her go, but sorry to see Rory leave.  Rory was a real character with real emotions and a real history.  Amy was just the cute chick in the fashionable wear who was awful in almost any context.

I'd just like to point out that The Girl Who Waited was far and away the best episode that focused on Amy, and I would say the best performance of any companion since the restart.


I gave that episode a gigantic "meh."  It was okay, save for some contrived plotting, but Karen Gillian is not a terribly good actress, and she just wasn't convincing to me.  Matt Smith and Rory carried that episode, in much the way Tennant carried that little girl in Fear Her ... she was miserable when he wasn't there, and great when he was.  That's how good of an actor Arthur Darvill is: he took Karen Gillian and convinced people she was a good actress.

And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.
 
2013-04-06 07:50:05 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Matt Smith and Rory carried that episode


When Rory had to make his choice- that was honestly heartbreaking.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: but the whole crack in the universe thing was centered around her


Not really. The crack had nothing to do with her, she was just in the wrong place, a place where the crack was intruding on reality. Up until the "Bad Wolf" moment wherein she recreated the universe, she was nothing more than someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

whizbangthedirtfarmer: now it looks like we're doing the same Most Important Girl in the Universe thing with Clara


They do have some good chemistry, though. Clara is very likable. And the Doctor's attachment at least makes more sense- he has a puzzle that he  must figure out.
 
2013-04-06 08:07:24 PM  
whizbangthedirtfarmer:
And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with Catherine Tate before you saw her on DW?  If so, did you like her before?
 
2013-04-06 08:08:01 PM  
Doctor Who is so full of what if's.  I believe it is because they move fast.

What if Derek Jacobi had gotten a couple of episodes as the Master before regenerating, what if the year of Martha walking the earth had taken more than one episode.  What if Turn left had been half a season of references and clues to things being not right?  What if we had gotten a season of Jack tagging along with the Doctor and Rose?  What if they were really really patient, and strung the Doctor;s encounters with River out over more than two incarnations of the doctor, oh so much that they seem to rush past.  Biggest for me was the Raknos (sp).  They were there at the formation of the earth, and hid for centuries, bleeding into our subconscious, our nightmares since the  dawn of time, and yet they get dealt with in one episode, when clearly this would have made an amazing season long arch.

  I do like Moffats use of time, though, even in this rough concept.  Amy meets Ten at the end, then he comes back before that, a but of a mirroring of his relationship with River.

Still tidbits of might have been's are fun what ifs.  Except for the people who utterly hate the show but continue to watch (and evidently post).
 
2013-04-06 08:54:53 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: NotARocketScientist: Dr Teeth?

[www.muppetcentral.com image 140x171]

Don't forget his companion...


shirtoid.com
 
2013-04-06 09:29:48 PM  

glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer:
And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with Catherine Tate before you saw her on DW?  If so, did you like her before?


Not sure if you're fishing, but it depends on your definition of "familiar."  I had seen her on several episodes of the Catherine Tate show, and I found her to be talented and funny, though the show suffered from the usual issues of sketch comedy -- at some point in time, the material will feel forced.
 
2013-04-06 09:33:54 PM  

hideous: Doctor Who is so full of what if's.  I believe it is because they move fast.

What if Derek Jacobi had gotten a couple of episodes as the Master before regenerating, what if the year of Martha walking the earth had taken more than one episode.  What if Turn left had been half a season of references and clues to things being not right?  What if we had gotten a season of Jack tagging along with the Doctor and Rose?  What if they were really really patient, and strung the Doctor;s encounters with River out over more than two incarnations of the doctor, oh so much that they seem to rush past.  Biggest for me was the Raknos (sp).  They were there at the formation of the earth, and hid for centuries, bleeding into our subconscious, our nightmares since the  dawn of time, and yet they get dealt with in one episode, when clearly this would have made an amazing season long arch.

  I do like Moffats use of time, though, even in this rough concept.  Amy meets Ten at the end, then he comes back before that, a but of a mirroring of his relationship with River.

Still tidbits of might have been's are fun what ifs.  Except for the people who utterly hate the show but continue to watch (and evidently post).


I have always said these two things: that Jacobi should have stayed the Master for a little while.  His switch and I AM THE MASTER moment was absolutely chilling, and he and Tennant would have worked well together.

Also, Captain Jack needs to be a regular companion, but only as part of a small cast.  I was thinking about this earlier: Jack is such a big, unique character that it was almost unfair to have him saddled with a bunch of morans in Torchwood.  The best Torchwood arc: Children of Earth, focused almost solely on Jack, and that worked well.  When Moffat said he wanted to have Jack in the battle where the Silence steal little River, I thought that sounded cool, but ultimately forced.  Jack would not have had enough screen time, and he would have been simply window dressing.
 
2013-04-06 09:57:40 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: When Moffat said he wanted to have Jack in the battle where the Silence steal little River, I thought that sounded cool, but ultimately forced.  Jack would not have had enough screen time, and he would have been simply window dressing.


I always thought that would have been the perfect opportunity to have a cameo for Ace.
 
2013-04-06 11:35:26 PM  
So...the doctor would've perform cunnilingus on a woman during her period?
 
2013-04-07 01:03:31 AM  
I enjoy Smith but Tennant is a better actor. That said, I love Doctor Who.
 
2013-04-07 03:42:16 AM  

zunkus: I enjoy Smith but Tennant is a better actor. That said, I love Doctor Who.


Tennant is good and brash enough to steal every scene he's in and this seems true no matter where you see him.  Smith seems to more or less play the same personality in just about everything, but my exposure to him has been more limitedly.
 
2013-04-07 06:44:43 AM  

gadian: zunkus: I enjoy Smith but Tennant is a better actor. That said, I love Doctor Who.

Tennant is good and brash enough to steal every scene he's in and this seems true no matter where you see him.  Smith seems to more or less play the same personality in just about everything, but my exposure to him has been more limitedly.


Yeah, Smith does seem to be kind of one dimensional. His "surprise" face looks the same as his "scared" or "excited" face. Then again it might just be me but it seems like he hasn't really had an opportunity to do much else seeming as it's the "Amy's in trouble" show. Perhaps this new season he will have the chance to grow a bit.
 
2013-04-07 09:00:14 AM  

t3knomanser: They do have some good chemistry, though. Clara is very likable. And the Doctor's attachment at least makes more sense- he has a puzzle that he  must figure out.


In the latest episode the Doctor does display rather linear thinking for a time lord. He knows there is something strange about Clara, because he's met other versions of her before. Yet he investigates her childhood and parents and finding nothing is frustrated. As a time traveller he should know that Clara could be normal now but something could happen in her future to cause the mystery. He appears to just not consider this. It's like he is just assuming that because he has seen the puzzle in his past it must also have happened in her past.
 
2013-04-07 09:11:24 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Valacirca: Also, are some of you honestly using the stupid BBCAmerica Amy intro as an actual reason to hate the character?  That's like hating a movie because a studio released a really bad trailer, its just dumb marketing.

Having to see the BBC America intro a few times, I can understand the hate.
Sad that American viewers had to put up with that.
On another note; tonight's episode was meh, although the singing was pleasant.
Hopefully the stories get better soon.


Tonight's episode was brutally bad. Long, pointless speeches full of nothing. No actual point, other than to seem epic, which it was certainly not. It was a microcosm of everything that's not working with the show these days.
 
2013-04-07 09:39:14 AM  
I really hope they get on with Clara, this whole "she's impossible" thing is gonna get old quickly, and the Doctor Stalker thing... creepy.

Also:

http://mimi-na.deviantart.com/art/Doctor-s-Girls-Wallpaper-58513223

http://mimi-na.deviantart.com/art/Bad-Wolf-Byebye-90862498

:O)
 
2013-04-07 10:47:04 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer:
And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with Catherine Tate before you saw her on DW?  If so, did you like her before?

Not sure if you're fishing, but it depends on your definition of "familiar."  I had seen her on several episodes of the Catherine Tate show, and I found her to be talented and funny, though the show suffered from the usual issues of sketch comedy -- at some point in time, the material will feel forced.


Actually, I was fishing to see if a theory of mine holds up.  The theory is that those that consider Tate a good/best companion are those who enjoyed her in some other context and carried that attachment to her in DW.

Thanks for responding to my unscientific survey.
 
2013-04-07 10:53:40 AM  

glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer: glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer:
And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with Catherine Tate before you saw her on DW?  If so, did you like her before?

Not sure if you're fishing, but it depends on your definition of "familiar."  I had seen her on several episodes of the Catherine Tate show, and I found her to be talented and funny, though the show suffered from the usual issues of sketch comedy -- at some point in time, the material will feel forced.

Actually, I was fishing to see if a theory of mine holds up.  The theory is that those that consider Tate a good/best companion are those who enjoyed her in some other context and carried that attachment to her in DW.

Thanks for responding to my unscientific survey.


Ironically, I thought Tate was a bad fit for Doctor Who.  I didn't like Donna Noble in her Christmas special, and she was off-putting in the Adipose episode.  It took me about three or four episodes to "like" her.  Also, she has extraordinary chemistry with Tennant, which helped the process along.  I guess, in the end, I was aware of Catherine Tate, but not a BIG fan, just appreciative, but I thought she was a bad fit for Doctor Who, only to find out she worked very well in the show.
 
2013-04-07 10:54:46 AM  
glass_ibis:
Actually, I was fishing to see if a theory of mine holds up.  The theory is that those that consider Tate a good/best companion are those who enjoyed her in some other context and carried that attachment to her in DW.

Thanks for responding to my unscientific survey.


I had never seen her before Doctor Who.  Never.  At first I thought she was horribly grating and frankly just not pretty enough to be a companion.  By the end of her run, she was the greatest Companion that the Doctor has ever had.
 
2013-04-07 11:06:29 AM  

Hebalo: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Valacirca: Also, are some of you honestly using the stupid BBCAmerica Amy intro as an actual reason to hate the character?  That's like hating a movie because a studio released a really bad trailer, its just dumb marketing.

Having to see the BBC America intro a few times, I can understand the hate.
Sad that American viewers had to put up with that.
On another note; tonight's episode was meh, although the singing was pleasant.
Hopefully the stories get better soon.

Tonight's episode was brutally bad. Long, pointless speeches full of nothing. No actual point, other than to seem epic, which it was certainly not. It was a microcosm of everything that's not working with the show these days.


Yeah, it wasn't great. And ended with an ass-pull ending. For a while I thought the Doctor had deliberately chosen that place, or engineered it somehow, just to get Clara to give up something important so he could find out what it was, but the ending didn't seem to confirm that.

The young girl however is the daughter of Aled Jones who as a child singer had a hit with Walking on the Air, the song from The Snowman.
 
2013-04-07 11:07:16 AM  

Flint Ironstag: In the latest episode the Doctor does display rather linear thinking for a time lord. He knows there is something strange about Clara, because he's met other versions of her before. Yet he investigates her childhood and parents and finding nothing is frustrated. As a time traveller he should know that Clara could be normal now but something could happen in her future to cause the mystery. He appears to just not consider this. It's like he is just assuming that because he has seen the puzzle in his past it must also have happened in her past.


Or he knows that he's going to be a part of her future and he can't cross his own time stream and thus is forced to wait and see like the rest of us.
 
2013-04-07 11:40:24 AM  

Mentat: Flint Ironstag: In the latest episode the Doctor does display rather linear thinking for a time lord. He knows there is something strange about Clara, because he's met other versions of her before. Yet he investigates her childhood and parents and finding nothing is frustrated. As a time traveller he should know that Clara could be normal now but something could happen in her future to cause the mystery. He appears to just not consider this. It's like he is just assuming that because he has seen the puzzle in his past it must also have happened in her past.

Or he knows that he's going to be a part of her future and he can't cross his own time stream and thus is forced to wait and see like the rest of us.


...which he has had absolutely no problem with in the past (remember River Song's "the mind boggles" comment).
 
2013-04-07 11:52:42 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer: glass_ibis: whizbangthedirtfarmer:
And I would say almost any later episode with Donna Noble in it has been the best nuWho companion episode.

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with Catherine Tate before you saw her on DW?  If so, did you like her before?

Not sure if you're fishing, but it depends on your definition of "familiar."  I had seen her on several episodes of the Catherine Tate show, and I found her to be talented and funny, though the show suffered from the usual issues of sketch comedy -- at some point in time, the material will feel forced.

Actually, I was fishing to see if a theory of mine holds up.  The theory is that those that consider Tate a good/best companion are those who enjoyed her in some other context and carried that attachment to her in DW.

Thanks for responding to my unscientific survey.

Ironically, I thought Tate was a bad fit for Doctor Who.  I didn't like Donna Noble in her Christmas special, and she was off-putting in the Adipose episode.  It took me about three or four episodes to "like" her.  Also, she has extraordinary chemistry with Tennant, which helped the process along.  I guess, in the end, I was aware of Catherine Tate, but not a BIG fan, just appreciative, but I thought she was a bad fit for Doctor Who, only to find out she worked very well in the show.


That's about where I stand. I didn't know who she was beforehand other than she was that shrieking harpy character that I hated in that one Christmas special. I went in thinking she was going to be horrible and was pleasantly surprised how well she turned out.
 
2013-04-07 12:04:59 PM  
I give Donna a break because of the fantastic mime scene at the window when she and the Doctor spot each other. She could have spent the rest of the season setting fire to orphanages and would have come out ahead.
 
2013-04-07 12:23:44 PM  
I will never understand two things about the doctor who fark crowd:

Their love of Donna and their disdain of matt smith.

Donna was highly irritating but I still give her props for some decent episodes.

Matt Smith plays a wonderfully entertaining doctor that is a nice relief from the past seasons.

Moffat has been writing a mixed bag lately but I don't see anything wrong with Matt Smith's doctor. The previous season where the doctor dies was an awesome series. I loved every minute. I like episodes with a lot of time travel.
 
2013-04-07 03:17:29 PM  

enforcerpsu: I will never understand two things about the doctor who fark crowd:

Their love of Donna and their disdain of matt smith.

Donna was highly irritating but I still give her props for some decent episodes.

Matt Smith plays a wonderfully entertaining doctor that is a nice relief from the past seasons.

Moffat has been writing a mixed bag lately but I don't see anything wrong with Matt Smith's doctor. The previous season where the doctor dies was an awesome series. I loved every minute. I like episodes with a lot of time travel.


I find it curious too.  I thought Donna was a complete waste of screen time until "Turn Left". From there she became tolerable but I never really grew to like her.  Up until Turn Left I was actively hoping she would get left behind or die.  Doubly annoying was the fact that they reverted her back to her original vapid form and erased any affection I had for her. It was supposed to be a tragic ending (and it was) but it made it seem like they'd wasted an entire season's companion slot.

As for Tennant vs Smith - I think they are both great in their own way.  I think Tennant is a more expressive actor (that might be due to having to over-act when working on stage) but some of my favorite episodes are Smiths.

Moffat has been uneven but he seems to have a better feel for the twisty-ness of time travel than Davies did.   Davies wrote some great episodes - "Midnight" a prime example - but most of the stories are linear, simply set in a different time/place.
 
2013-04-07 09:45:07 PM  

enforcerpsu: Their love of Donna and their disdain of matt smith.


I thought Smith showed the best acting since CE's "why won't you die" speech in Dalek last night.  Was never a fan of 10, probably more because of Rose than anything, but...I think Martha was the best companion ever (is 50 years).

In retrospect, making her so awful in The Runaway Bride was genius, because it makes her reappearance and ultimate arc so much more painful to watch.
 
2013-04-08 01:35:47 AM  

zunkus: I enjoy Smith but Tennant is a better actor. That said, I love Doctor Who.


Perhaps, when he's not off his leash.

i.imgur.com



Having said that, his Hamlet was mesmerizing. Here's the whole thing.
 
2013-04-08 03:54:57 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: zunkus: I enjoy Smith but Tennant is a better actor. That said, I love Doctor Who.

Perhaps, when he's not off his leash.

[i.imgur.com image 500x290]

Having said that, his Hamlet was mesmerizing. Here's the whole thing.


Agreed. Though the lighting was really odd.

/and SirPatStew! Yum!
 
2013-04-09 02:53:31 PM  
I don't get these complaints about the Most Important Girl in the Universe thing that happens on this show.

Ace was the Most Important Girl in the Universe (The Doctor was grooming her for something special).
Peri was the Most Important Girl in the Universe (watch Trial of a Timelord).
Romana was the Most Important Girl in the Universe, too.

In fact, I think every girl on the TARDIS was exceptionally important in some way. Maybe not "destroy the universe if we don't sort this out" important, but important to The Doctor's plans, anyway.

Oh, wait--- There was Mel. She wasn't important at all. In fact, she was so unimportant and annoying that the Doctor eagerly gave her away to Sabalom Glitz.

But everyone else going back to his granddaughter (who he actually finally mentioned this week!) was vitally important at some point. Why else would he risk so much to travel with them?

Stop whining about it. This is the structure of the show. The Doctor picks up a companion that intrigues him in some way. He wouldn't travel with boring people.

Also, I'd think that just being associated with The Doctor makes ANYONE one of the Most Important People in the Universe. He's unique in all of creatior, he has seen the dawn of time and the end of it, and he picked YOU to travel with him. Welcome to the big leagues, baby.
 
2013-04-09 04:12:01 PM  

ZeroCorpse: He wouldn't travel with boring people.


Ian Chesterton.
 
2013-04-09 04:13:58 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I don't get these complaints about the Most Important Girl in the Universe thing that happens on this show.

Ace was the Most Important Girl in the Universe (The Doctor was grooming her for something special).
Peri was the Most Important Girl in the Universe (watch Trial of a Timelord).
Romana was the Most Important Girl in the Universe, too.

In fact, I think every girl on the TARDIS was exceptionally important in some way. Maybe not "destroy the universe if we don't sort this out" important, but important to The Doctor's plans, anyway.

Oh, wait--- There was Mel. She wasn't important at all. In fact, she was so unimportant and annoying that the Doctor eagerly gave her away to Sabalom Glitz.

But everyone else going back to his granddaughter (who he actually finally mentioned this week!) was vitally important at some point. Why else would he risk so much to travel with them?

Stop whining about it. This is the structure of the show. The Doctor picks up a companion that intrigues him in some way. He wouldn't travel with boring people.

Also, I'd think that just being associated with The Doctor makes ANYONE one of the Most Important People in the Universe. He's unique in all of creatior, he has seen the dawn of time and the end of it, and he picked YOU to travel with him. Welcome to the big leagues, baby.


Well I am not sure before #2 but to build off you point I think many were either critically important in their own times or a puzzle in some way outside of the doctor.
Zoe-  super special mathmatical genius from the future
Liz - UNITscientific Advisor
JO -  Daughter of an ambassador or some such thing.. I got nothing
Sarah Jane - Top Journalist
Leela - The Doctors very own Eliza Doolittle
Romana - Top timelord chosen by the high council
Adric - Super Special Mathmatical Genius
Nyssa - Space Princess
Tegan - Brave heart (kind of a Donna before there was a Donna.)
Turlough - Space Prince
Peri - MEH  but you are right about Trial of Timelord
Mel - usless absolutely useless
Ace - ahh  the mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped around Nitro 9.
 
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