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(Marketwatch)   Lincoln's new image fails to win support. This is not a repeat from 1865   (blogs.marketwatch.com) divider line 75
    More: Fail, Quentin Fottrell  
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4764 clicks; posted to Business » on 05 Apr 2013 at 8:13 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-05 08:21:18 AM  
I laughed my ass off when I saw that one of their commercials literally had Lincoln in it.
 
2013-04-05 08:26:09 AM  

Phaeon: I laughed my ass off when I saw that one of their commercials literally had Lincoln in it.


You mean like, literally his skeleton? Or like literally an actor representing a figurative image of Lincoln?

end pedantry

Seriously, I get what they are trying to do but if they think they can quickly take share from BMW, Benz or even Infiniti, they're crazy.
 
2013-04-05 08:31:15 AM  
I think the big stumble was having these new commercials (including a Super Bowl commercial) for a car that admittedly looks kinda nice but then not having them in the showrooms.  "Hey honey, let's go look at that new Lincoln we saw on TV."  At the dealership: "Yeah... we don't have those yet..."
 
2013-04-05 08:38:38 AM  
the last lincoln that had any cool at all was the early '60s slab-sided, suicide-doored convertible conti designed by Raymond Loewy (or disciple thereof)
 
2013-04-05 08:44:45 AM  
The problem is, Lincoln was at its best when it was a landship.  But people today want smaller cars, or at least want a car with a lot of room/space without being so big you can't get into a parking space.  So how do you make something that looks like this without it having the turn radius of a light cruiser?

forums.aaca.org
 
2013-04-05 08:48:17 AM  

dionysusaur: the last lincoln that had any cool at all was the early '60s slab-sided, suicide-doored convertible conti designed by Raymond Loewy (or disciple thereof)


This.

Nobody wants a rebadged Taurus or Fusion. The top end versions of those already have the leather, AWD, navigation, and Ecoboost engine. Why pay an extra $20k on top for what amounts to the same features?

/The new Cadillacs look very nice.
//Too bad only grandmas and grandpas still buy them.
 
2013-04-05 08:54:14 AM  
Problem: Your cars are not distinct enough from the budget brand for people to have real interest in when looking to buy high end cars since they have sort of been handcuffed by their parent brand in both appearance and powertrains.

Solution: Add "Motor Company" to your name and make some serious sounding commercials.

Frankly, I don't see what went wrong.
 
2013-04-05 08:58:52 AM  
Wasn't the Town Car their signature model? So yeah, you kill that off, and...
 
2013-04-05 09:04:04 AM  

verbaltoxin: Nobody wants a rebadged Taurus


I'll bet there would be a way to sell a slightly different SHO as a Lincoln and make it work.  I forget what model was popular in the early 50s, but a Lincoln won at least one Daytona Beach race.
 
2013-04-05 09:07:01 AM  
Like all good geeks, I hate marketing people deeply, but you do have to feel sorry for them sometimes.

Ford probably ran focus groups for months on end, asking people what they thought about the Lincoln brand, asked them what things Ford/Lincoln could do to change those perceptions, etc. Most of it was likely nonsense, but they probably did manage to identify several common themes and maybe even a few truly good ideas. In addition they probably ran hundreds, if not thousands of other surveys, hired consulting firms, talked to other marketing groups, studied the competition, performed untold hours of research, scrapped design after design, until finally, they came up with an overall brand relaunch that they felt would revitalize Lincoln into the next decade. More focus groups were formed, and they probably raved and cheered the new designs, fell in love with all the new features, loved the new commercials, and just generally had a great old time telling Ford how great the new Lincolns were.

And then sales fall through the floor like a goddamn anvil.
 
2013-04-05 09:08:06 AM  
Until the Navigator and the MKZ, I didn't realize that Lincolns were purchased by anyone other than car services.
 
2013-04-05 09:13:43 AM  
images.forum-auto.com
My grandfather drove one of these for about 20 years.  The car, not the woman.
 
2013-04-05 09:16:40 AM  

Phaeon: I laughed my ass off when I saw that one of their commercials literally had Lincoln in it.


Does it have enough space to store all my jars of urine?
 
2013-04-05 09:18:55 AM  

verbaltoxin: Nobody wants a rebadged Taurus or Fusion. The top end versions of those already have the leather, AWD, navigation, and Ecoboost engine. Why pay an extra $20k on top for what amounts to the same features?


From what I hear, they actually have some new and unique models coming down the pipe that are in development right now.  The "rebadged Fords" thing is kind of the only way they can keep putting vehicles in showrooms until those new cars are ready.

We'll see though.  The auto industry has serious lead time challenges.
 
2013-04-05 09:24:50 AM  
A doctor I work for bought an MKS.  If you like the Cadillac like luxury cars it was a smart purchase.  The car has every option imaginable for 2/3 the price.

Will it have long term Cadillac or Mercedes quality?  I don't know.
 
2013-04-05 09:31:10 AM  
The MKZ is about as distinctive as any other 3-character-in-the-name car. If you can't even figure out a name for your el clono ...
 
2013-04-05 09:31:38 AM  
They look like somebody took a Jaguar and pounded it into a new shape with an ugly stick.

stuhayes2010: long term Cadillac ... quality


[does. not. compute.]

Although, I'll admit the last person I knew how had a Caddy was a guy who bought a CTS about 7 years ago. It never had any serious mechanical problems, but by 50,000 miles shiat was falling off of it and it rattled like a cup of dice.
 
2013-04-05 09:32:46 AM  

Rapmaster2000: [images.forum-auto.com image 640x480]
My grandfather drove one of these for about 20 years.  The car, not the woman.


Your grandfather drove a custom-built, 2 door Lincoln convertible, as pictured above?

Interesting.
 
2013-04-05 09:36:04 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: verbaltoxin: Nobody wants a rebadged Taurus or Fusion. The top end versions of those already have the leather, AWD, navigation, and Ecoboost engine. Why pay an extra $20k on top for what amounts to the same features?

From what I hear, they actually have some new and unique models coming down the pipe that are in development right now.  The "rebadged Fords" thing is kind of the only way they can keep putting vehicles in showrooms until those new cars are ready.

We'll see though.  The auto industry has serious lead time challenges.


How long have they been in development because the rebadging thing has been done for more than 20 years?

I'd have no problem with getting the Lincoln version of the Taurus SHO, but at that price point, I'd rather have an S4, or ISF, 335is, or the upcoming CLA45 AMG, or G37 Sport, or S60 R-design, or any number of other cars.  Lower the price point by $10k and you might sell a few.
 
2013-04-05 09:42:47 AM  
In my mind's eye, I have Lincolns as a slightly more posh version of Oldsmobile. And the driver is between the ages of 75 and death.
 
2013-04-05 09:51:35 AM  

Lost Thought 00: In my mind's eye, I have Lincolns as a slightly more posh version of Oldsmobile. And the driver is between the ages of 75 and death.


Oldmobile had the 442.  I don't think there has ever been a Lincoln that anyone under 60 wanted to drive.
 
2013-04-05 09:57:26 AM  
Black with black interior suicide door Continental or nothing.

www.roadkillcustoms.com
 
2013-04-05 10:01:25 AM  

bark_atda_moon: Lost Thought 00: In my mind's eye, I have Lincolns as a slightly more posh version of Oldsmobile. And the driver is between the ages of 75 and death.

Oldmobile had the 442.  I don't think there has ever been a Lincoln that anyone under 60 wanted to drive.


The LS was a genually good car. Too bad it was styled like a refrigerator.
 
2013-04-05 10:02:45 AM  
I just bought a used Lincoln IdealArc 300-300 machine with a cool rig for next to nothing.  But that's a 90's vintage machine so I guess it's not relevant to this discussion.

/oh, wait.  What?
 
2013-04-05 10:05:56 AM  
The fact that I read the headline, clicked the link, and went "Oh yeah, there's a car company called Lincoln. Forgot that even existed" is probably a bad sign. Sidenote: I would not object to them bringing back that spokesmodel Jill from the last gasps of Mercury.

/on mobile, someone else make with the pics of her, if you please
 
2013-04-05 10:21:29 AM  
The new MkZ is a step in the right direction, at least it doesn't blatantly scream "I'm a rebadged Taurus".  You can see still it just a dressed up Taurus but it isn't as obvious as previous models.  Ford made a strategic decision to let Lincoln languish (and they closed down Mercury) in favor of pushing their resources into the Ford line and the success of the Focus, Fusion, and Taurus have justified that decision. The flip side is Lincoln is at least one, if not two, more redesigns away from being able to be a legitimate luxury option.  As long as they keep funding development, they'll be fine in the long run.
 
2013-04-05 10:24:29 AM  

majestic: bark_atda_moon: Lost Thought 00: In my mind's eye, I have Lincolns as a slightly more posh version of Oldsmobile. And the driver is between the ages of 75 and death.

Oldmobile had the 442.  I don't think there has ever been a Lincoln that anyone under 60 wanted to drive.

The LS was a genually good car. Too bad it was styled like a refrigerator.


I liked the LS, it had a kind of classic style without being being big as all hell.
 
2013-04-05 10:40:28 AM  

Wireless Joe: Black with black interior suicide door Continental or nothing.

[www.roadkillcustoms.com image 400x295]


i drove a '69 continental - white with white interior and suicide doors. it was awesome. the gas mileage... not so awesome.

i think the trouble with lincoln is, it's cars are F*CKING UGLY AS F*CK.
 
2013-04-05 10:46:03 AM  

FlashHarry: Wireless Joe: Black with black interior suicide door Continental or nothing.

[www.roadkillcustoms.com image 400x295]

i drove a '69 continental - white with white interior and suicide doors. it was awesome. the gas mileage... not so awesome.

i think the trouble with lincoln is, it's cars are F*CKING UGLY AS F*CK.


"People like whales, right? Let's make our next SUV look like it's designed to filter plankton."

o.aolcdn.com
 
2013-04-05 11:04:10 AM  
how did I know that no one has RTFA an immediately blamed product or the ads?

Lincoln's revamped and heavily promoted MKZ sedan, originally expected on lots in December, has been behind schedule, held up in some cases for additional quality inspections. Dealers "have had difficulty explaining to customers why their vehicles took months to arrive,"

people want to buy the MKZ, but dealers don't have any in stock.

Lexus has been selling rebadged Camrys as ES models for the better part of 20 years, with the same engines and options as the Camry, and that is given a pass for some reason. see also: VW Passat/Audi A4, VW Golf/Audi A3, Ford Escape/Range Rover Evoque, Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX, Honda Pilot/Acura MDX, Nissan 370/Infiniti G37

but when Lincoln tries to do it, with different features (V6 isn't in the Fusion, nor is the panorama roof, nor the THX sound system), its a badge job and should be avoided at all costs. Hey lets get a Lexus ES instead!
 
2013-04-05 11:11:33 AM  
Hey lincoln, for 600 bucks an hour you can hire me as a consultant and I will turn your car company around in 10 second of discussion. Think retro. Add modenr tech. Dont skimp on power. make it efficient. You will compete with Cadillac. people like the OLD lincolns.
www.classycars.org
www.diseno-art.com
That will be $1.66 please. Your welcome.
 
2013-04-05 11:20:12 AM  

dionysusaur: the last lincoln that had any cool at all was the early '60s slab-sided, suicide-doored convertible conti designed by Raymond Loewy (or disciple thereof)


I rather liked the styling of the late '90s Mark VIII, too, but other than that quibble, quite agree.
 
2013-04-05 11:24:31 AM  

natazha: The MKZ is about as distinctive as any other 3-character-in-the-name car. If you can't even figure out a name for your el clono ...


That right there is a marketing failure. Lincoln's "thing" used to be their models named 'Mark [something]", so this was supposed to be familiar as the "Mark Z", except younger buyers don't even remember those Lincolns, and most people read it as Emm-Kay-Zee instead of "Mark-Zee".

I'm not even sure what Ford/Lincoln people wanted us to think or say in our heads when we read "MKZ" anyway.
 
2013-04-05 11:34:44 AM  
Ford's biggest problem is that they have tried to bring about a change in brand perception through marketing a product through anticipation rather than experience. And they're also really poorly aligned with their target market.

If you want to convince people that Lincoln is a brand worth buying again, you've got to focus on a group of people who might believe it. Millenials are a TERRIBLE target market for a luxury car. They don't have the money to throw at a car like that, and if they do, they're more likely to go after a German or Japanese car than a Ford. Only the most devoted of Millenial car enthusiasts would ever take a chance on an American luxury car when there are Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses and other similar brands to make a more compelling argument.

Most of the marketing campaign has been about trying to bring back the heritage of the Lincoln brand but with a newer, sleeker car. Who does that appeal to? Who wants to buy a new car with an old name... especially when that old name is associated with giant (but comfortable) towncars?

Where Lincoln could get some traction is in marketing a high-tech car that emphasizes comfort while providing a sleek 21st century experience. But to do that, they've got to mass-produce the car and pretty much bribe people to test-drive the thing, and then price it low enough to get middle-aged people who have some disposable income (and families large enough to require a luxury car that isn't a sports car) to bite.
 
2013-04-05 11:38:17 AM  

StopLurkListen: That right there is a marketing failure. Lincoln's "thing" used to be their models named 'Mark [something]", so this was supposed to be familiar as the "Mark Z", except younger buyers don't even remember those Lincolns, and most people read it as Emm-Kay-Zee instead of "Mark-Zee".

I'm not even sure what Ford/Lincoln people wanted us to think or say in our heads when we read "MKZ" anyway.


The names the used to use, like Navigator, Zephyr, and Town Car were nice.  Even though the cars stank, I wish they'd go back to those names, especially since the entire luxury segment is just a jumble of letters and numbers anymore---using actual words might set them apart from the 335i, the IS, the E-class, and the more obscure POS-1080.
 
2013-04-05 11:39:10 AM  

secularsage: Ford's biggest problem is that they have tried to bring about a change in brand perception through marketing a product through anticipation rather than experience. And they're also really poorly aligned with their target market.

If you want to convince people that Lincoln is a brand worth buying again, you've got to focus on a group of people who might believe it. Millenials are a TERRIBLE target market for a luxury car. They don't have the money to throw at a car like that, and if they do, they're more likely to go after a German or Japanese car than a Ford. Only the most devoted of Millenial car enthusiasts would ever take a chance on an American luxury car when there are Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses and other similar brands to make a more compelling argument.

Most of the marketing campaign has been about trying to bring back the heritage of the Lincoln brand but with a newer, sleeker car. Who does that appeal to? Who wants to buy a new car with an old name... especially when that old name is associated with giant (but comfortable) towncars?

Where Lincoln could get some traction is in marketing a high-tech car that emphasizes comfort while providing a sleek 21st century experience. But to do that, they've got to mass-produce the car and pretty much bribe people to test-drive the thing, and then price it low enough to get middle-aged people who have some disposable income (and families large enough to require a luxury car that isn't a sports car) to bite.


Probably would be simpler and more effective to drop Lincoln entirely and start a new brand
 
2013-04-05 11:50:21 AM  

secularsage: Ford's biggest problem is that they have tried to bring about a change in brand perception through marketing a product through anticipation rather than experience. And they're also really poorly aligned with their target market.

If you want to convince people that Lincoln is a brand worth buying again, you've got to focus on a group of people who might believe it. Millenials are a TERRIBLE target market for a luxury car. They don't have the money to throw at a car like that, and if they do, they're more likely to go after a German or Japanese car than a Ford. Only the most devoted of Millenial car enthusiasts would ever take a chance on an American luxury car when there are Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses and other similar brands to make a more compelling argument.

Most of the marketing campaign has been about trying to bring back the heritage of the Lincoln brand but with a newer, sleeker car. Who does that appeal to? Who wants to buy a new car with an old name... especially when that old name is associated with giant (but comfortable) towncars?

Where Lincoln could get some traction is in marketing a high-tech car that emphasizes comfort while providing a sleek 21st century experience. But to do that, they've got to mass-produce the car and pretty much bribe people to test-drive the thing, and then price it low enough to get middle-aged people who have some disposable income (and families large enough to require a luxury car that isn't a sports car) to bite.


Agreed. Not that i think I'll be anywhere near the luxury car market any time in the next century, but we Gen Yers only know a world where American cars are POSes that will die 50,000 miles before their import counterparts.
 
2013-04-05 11:59:42 AM  

ha-ha-guy: The new MkZ is a step in the right direction, at least it doesn't blatantly scream "I'm a rebadged Taurus".  You can see still it just a dressed up Taurus but it isn't as obvious as previous models.  Ford made a strategic decision to let Lincoln languish (and they closed down Mercury) in favor of pushing their resources into the Ford line and the success of the Focus, Fusion, and Taurus have justified that decision. The flip side is Lincoln is at least one, if not two, more redesigns away from being able to be a legitimate luxury option.  As long as they keep funding development, they'll be fine in the long run.


It's a good thing the MKZ doesn't scream "I'm a rebadged Taurus," because it's a rebadged Fusion.  ;)

Actually, it shares platform and some powertrains with Fusion, but completely unique sheetmetal.  I think MKZ is the interim step to where Lincoln wants to be.  The MKS is the rebadged Taurus, and while it's also mostly unique sheetmetal, its origins are a bit easier to spot.

I'm looking forward to a RWD Lincoln coupe and/or sedan on the refreshed S197-derived 2015 Mustang platform.  Now THAT should be a nice return to form for Lincoln.
 
2013-04-05 12:01:14 PM  
The wife and I bought an 88 Town Car two years ago. Its still a qualilty engine.

Everything after about 1990 however...
 
2013-04-05 12:09:22 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: secularsage: Ford's biggest problem is that they have tried to bring about a change in brand perception through marketing a product through anticipation rather than experience. And they're also really poorly aligned with their target market.

If you want to convince people that Lincoln is a brand worth buying again, you've got to focus on a group of people who might believe it. Millenials are a TERRIBLE target market for a luxury car. They don't have the money to throw at a car like that, and if they do, they're more likely to go after a German or Japanese car than a Ford. Only the most devoted of Millenial car enthusiasts would ever take a chance on an American luxury car when there are Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses and other similar brands to make a more compelling argument.

Most of the marketing campaign has been about trying to bring back the heritage of the Lincoln brand but with a newer, sleeker car. Who does that appeal to? Who wants to buy a new car with an old name... especially when that old name is associated with giant (but comfortable) towncars?

Where Lincoln could get some traction is in marketing a high-tech car that emphasizes comfort while providing a sleek 21st century experience. But to do that, they've got to mass-produce the car and pretty much bribe people to test-drive the thing, and then price it low enough to get middle-aged people who have some disposable income (and families large enough to require a luxury car that isn't a sports car) to bite.

Agreed. Not that i think I'll be anywhere near the luxury car market any time in the next century, but we Gen Yers only know a world where American cars are POSes that will die 50,000 miles before their import counterparts.


its not the reality, but the perception.

from JD Power:
  there are several brands that have performed very well in dependability during the past several years but still face challenges with customer perceptions of their reliability. In particular, during the past four years, models from Buick, Cadillac, Ford, Hyundai, and Lincoln have achieved consistently strong levels of dependability, but still have relatively high proportions of new-vehicle buyers expressing reliability concerns.

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2012008

but go ahead, keep farking that chicken.
 
2013-04-05 12:09:58 PM  

Wireless Joe: Black with black interior suicide door Continental or nothing.

[www.roadkillcustoms.com image 400x295]


No love for the peanut butter guts?
 
2013-04-05 12:10:19 PM  
s.wsj.net

Does it come with that pixie dust?  I'm sure some people would give it a second look if they had a pixie dust option.
 
2013-04-05 12:23:09 PM  

dumbobruni: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: secularsage: Ford's biggest problem is that they have tried to bring about a change in brand perception through marketing a product through anticipation rather than experience. And they're also really poorly aligned with their target market.

If you want to convince people that Lincoln is a brand worth buying again, you've got to focus on a group of people who might believe it. Millenials are a TERRIBLE target market for a luxury car. They don't have the money to throw at a car like that, and if they do, they're more likely to go after a German or Japanese car than a Ford. Only the most devoted of Millenial car enthusiasts would ever take a chance on an American luxury car when there are Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses and other similar brands to make a more compelling argument.

Most of the marketing campaign has been about trying to bring back the heritage of the Lincoln brand but with a newer, sleeker car. Who does that appeal to? Who wants to buy a new car with an old name... especially when that old name is associated with giant (but comfortable) towncars?

Where Lincoln could get some traction is in marketing a high-tech car that emphasizes comfort while providing a sleek 21st century experience. But to do that, they've got to mass-produce the car and pretty much bribe people to test-drive the thing, and then price it low enough to get middle-aged people who have some disposable income (and families large enough to require a luxury car that isn't a sports car) to bite.

Agreed. Not that i think I'll be anywhere near the luxury car market any time in the next century, but we Gen Yers only know a world where American cars are POSes that will die 50,000 miles before their import counterparts.

its not the reality, but the perception.

from JD Power:
  there are several brands that have performed very well in dependability during the past several years but still face challenges with customer perceptions of their reliability. In particular, during the past four years, models from Buick, Cadillac, Ford, Hyundai, and Lincoln have achieved consistently strong levels of dependability, but still have relatively high proportions of new-vehicle buyers expressing reliability concerns.

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2012008

but go ahead, keep farking that chicken.


Silly us, citing our personal experiences and the widespread cultural perceptions that have existed for 30+ years. I hear that Yahoo! Is trying hard now too.
 
2013-04-05 12:32:20 PM  

UNC_Samurai:  But people today want smaller cars, or at least want a car with a lot of room/space without being so big you can't get into a parking space.


I see you haven't been to Texas.

There have been many times I've been at a busy red light on a four lane road and couldn't find anyone who wasn't driving a pickup or giant SUV.
 
2013-04-05 12:46:45 PM  

StopLurkListen: natazha: The MKZ is about as distinctive as any other 3-character-in-the-name car. If you can't even figure out a name for your el clono ...

That right there is a marketing failure. Lincoln's "thing" used to be their models named 'Mark [something]", so this was supposed to be familiar as the "Mark Z", except younger buyers don't even remember those Lincolns, and most people read it as Emm-Kay-Zee instead of "Mark-Zee".

I'm not even sure what Ford/Lincoln people wanted us to think or say in our heads when we read "MKZ" anyway.


Amazing that I didn't even associate MKZ with Mark Z, seeing as how my uncle was a Lincoln guy and I loved his cars when I was a kid.  They had a pretty cool model in the 80s called the LSC. It had a slightly hotter version of the 5.0 used in the Mustang GT of the day.
 
2013-04-05 12:48:44 PM  
Dear Lincoln

Please take the supercharged Coyote 5.0 from the Mustang GT500, put it in a solid sedan, and underprice Caddy's CTS-V by $15,000.  Then I'll be interested.
 
2013-04-05 12:48:52 PM  

Big Beef Burrito: Everything after about 1990 however...


... had a better engine.

They moved to the 4.6L modular after the 5.0 Windsor V8. For all the whining from "pushrod purists" who just don't know what they're talking about, the 4.6L is actually the better motor in most configurations. It's smaller, lighter, more efficient and, in most setups, more powerful. It's also proven very reliable in most setups.
 
2013-04-05 12:57:10 PM  

skozlaw: Big Beef Burrito: Everything after about 1990 however...

... had a better engine.

They moved to the 4.6L modular after the 5.0 Windsor V8. For all the whining from "pushrod purists" who just don't know what they're talking about, the 4.6L is actually the better motor in most configurations. It's smaller, lighter, more efficient and, in most setups, more powerful. It's also proven very reliable in most setups.


It is better, but it's not smaller.
 
2013-04-05 01:19:22 PM  

majestic: It is better, but it's not smaller.


No, I mean in his car. The Town Car went from the 302 Windsor to the 281 Modular in the early 90s.

But, yes, that's true, there were smaller Windsor variants than there have yet been Modular variants.
 
2013-04-05 01:26:15 PM  

skozlaw: majestic: It is better, but it's not smaller.

No, I mean in his car. The Town Car went from the 302 Windsor to the 281 Modular in the early 90s.

But, yes, that's true, there were smaller Windsor variants than there have yet been Modular variants.


I'm not a car guy, just citing personal experience, which is probably skewed.

You sound like you know what you're talking about. When did they ditch the Town Car and move on to the Taurus knock-off that seems to suck so badly?

Old Lincolns are plentiful down here in Florida. The older ones seem to have held up better than the 90s models. They're relatively cheap , and can be found with low mileage. I like them.
 
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