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(Daily Mail)   You may think you've heard of tough battles, but try 11 Victoria Crosses awarded to members of 150 man force. Oh, and a forgotten man of that force has now been found   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 137
    More: Hero, Zulu, Battle of Rorke's Drift, Characters of Halo, bravery, reenactments, Queen Victoria  
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13062 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2013 at 9:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-05 08:43:55 AM  
Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.
 
2013-04-05 09:13:11 AM  

dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.


Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment
 
2013-04-05 09:15:42 AM  
Me three. I think I'll have to watch the movie this weekend.
 
2013-04-05 09:17:50 AM  
It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.
 
2013-04-05 09:18:10 AM  
Meh.Colonial Invader Problems.

Using rfiles against a multitude of shoeless black people with wooden spears and animal hide shields shouting "Where Dem White Wimmin At?" isn't all that brave in my book.
 
2013-04-05 09:26:28 AM  
Seems like rather flimsy "proof"
 
2013-04-05 09:27:01 AM  
Stiglitz?
 
2013-04-05 09:27:21 AM  

GungFu: Meh.Colonial Invader Problems.

Using rfiles against a multitude of shoeless black people with wooden spears and animal hide shields shouting "Where Dem White Wimmin At?" isn't all that brave in my book.


1/10 Started well, ends weak.
 
2013-04-05 09:27:57 AM  
*RTFA*

Oh, those guys.
Yeah, big brave white men.

Fark 'em.
 
2013-04-05 09:28:11 AM  
Brave?     I think the Brits shot some of their own people before the battle even started.

Not like the soliders had much of an option but to stay and shoot things up a bit....
 
2013-04-05 09:32:40 AM  
Those Limeys were all cowards. If you want real heroism, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.
 
2013-04-05 09:33:15 AM  

stellarossa: dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.

Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment


Yes, but it's still a classic bit of cinema, even if it plays fast and loose with the truth.
 
2013-04-05 09:37:59 AM  

r1niceboy: Those Limeys were all cowards. If you want real heroism, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.


Bravo sir. You are awarded an FC (Fark Cross) for courage above and beyond the call of posting.
 
2013-04-05 09:38:08 AM  

r1niceboy: If you want real heroism snafu, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.


FTFY
 
2013-04-05 09:39:59 AM  
Lots of Garnet Wolsleys in this thread.
 
2013-04-05 09:41:30 AM  

SevenT: r1niceboy: If you want real heroism snafu, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.

FTFY


What about My Lai, that one was done on purpose
 
2013-04-05 09:41:49 AM  

netcentric: Brave?     I think the Brits shot some of their own people before the battle even started.

Not like the soliders had much of an option but to stay and shoot things up a bit....


Yeah, they shot at some who were running away, and killed an NCO. I don't think they were ordered to do so, IIRC they were just pissed off at seeing them run.
 
2013-04-05 09:41:59 AM  
I don't think we should glorify killing people.
Couldn't they have just talked out their differences?
 
2013-04-05 09:44:28 AM  

doubled99: I don't think we should glorify killing people.
Couldn't they have just talked out their differences?


The Brits didn't develop tactical hugging technology until decades after this.
 
2013-04-05 09:45:26 AM  

GungFu: Meh.Colonial Invader Problems.

Using rfiles against a multitude of shoeless black people with wooden spears and animal hide shields shouting "Where Dem White Wimmin At?" isn't all that brave in my book.


Never heard of the Battle of Isandlwana, have you?



/damn kids
 
2013-04-05 09:46:27 AM  

stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.


^ This.

I still feel bad about Michael Caine, though.  He was a good guy.
 
2013-04-05 09:47:49 AM  

r1niceboy: Those Limeys were all cowards. If you want real heroism, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.


And the Indians weren't supposed to fight back!  Those Indians sure are sneaky.
 
2013-04-05 09:53:11 AM  
Battling Zulus, eh?
 
2013-04-05 09:53:13 AM  
Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.
 
2013-04-05 09:54:58 AM  
Let's be honest.  Even at 150 vs. 4000, it was probably like entering a cheat code.
 
2013-04-05 09:56:16 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: Let's be honest.  Even at 150 vs. 4000, it was probably like entering a cheat code.


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

better check your colonial privilege, yo.
 
2013-04-05 10:00:18 AM  

I'm no expert but...: r1niceboy: Those Limeys were all cowards. If you want real heroism, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.

Bravo sir. You are awarded an FC (Fark Cross) for courage above and beyond the call of posting.


I prefer the US 7th Cav at Washiata River where they bravely faught the women and children and then bravely ran away when the warriors arrived.

/Gary Owen!
 
2013-04-05 10:13:25 AM  
That was a truly brutal war.
My great-grandad lost a leg in that battle.
Some question as to whether it was from a mosquito or a tiger...

i125.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-05 10:13:44 AM  

trotsky: Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.


Silly thing is Rorke's Drift only happened because the Zulu reserve after the victory at Isandlwana ignored the kings orders to defend Zululand and went on a raid instead.
 
2013-04-05 10:15:11 AM  

dittybopper: stellarossa: dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.

Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment

Yes, but it's still a classic bit of cinema, even if it plays fast and loose with the truth.


I agree. However, it's not like they realistically had much of a choice to make in terms of flight or fight: the slow wagon train wouldn't have made it but a couple of miles and certainly not all the way to Helpmakaar before being totally overrun.

But yes, I can't begin to imagine the thoughts running through these soldier's heads as they came perilously close to being overrun, only the foresight of Chard and Dalton to have an inner redoubt constructed saved them (a necessity once the NNC left in a panic).
 
2013-04-05 10:17:19 AM  

trotsky: Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.


Brave Men's Blood I thought was excellent. Ex-military author was able to poke fun at military stuff.
 
2013-04-05 10:19:12 AM  

dittybopper: stellarossa: dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.

Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment

Yes, but it's still a classic bit of cinema, even if it plays fast and loose with the truth.


Here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NuTaQsMNaE
 
2013-04-05 10:21:33 AM  
Don't you. Point that bloody spear at me.

www.wearysloth.com
 
2013-04-05 10:22:45 AM  
Well, bravo zulu!
 
2013-04-05 10:22:48 AM  

willfullyobscure: better check your colonial privilege, yo.


If your enemy outnumbers you 26+ to 1 and you win, it's not because you were incredibly brave.  It's because they were incredibly stupid.  The cheat code for "incredibly stupid enemy" is up up down down left right left right B A 007-373-5963, hold down the select button, then hit start.
 
2013-04-05 10:28:26 AM  
Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite
 
2013-04-05 10:28:45 AM  

Thudfark: Don't you. Point that bloody spear at me.


hypervocal.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com 

You're not doing it right - and you're not using the broken voice when he gets emotional. He gets very emotional indeed.

"She was only sixteen years old. SHE WAS ONLY SIXTEEN YEARS OLD! YOU WERE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!"

That's Michael Caine
 
2013-04-05 10:29:45 AM  
 He faced ten thousand Zulu warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and dry guava halves.He even saved the life of Douglas Haig when he was nearly killed by a pygmy woman with a sharpened mango.
 
2013-04-05 10:30:54 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: willfullyobscure: better check your colonial privilege, yo.

If your enemy outnumbers you 26+ to 1 and you win, it's not because you were incredibly brave.  It's because they were incredibly stupid.  The cheat code for "incredibly stupid enemy" is up up down down left right left right B A 007-373-5963, hold down the select button, then hit start.


They actually weren't that stupid. They were quite calculating and knew they faced a problem but thought they had the force to win. Once the cost of victory was around 10% of their force, they decided they were unwilling to pay the whole cost to finish the job. They chose not to win because the price was too steep, not because they were simply unable to.
 
2013-04-05 10:31:55 AM  
Zulus..... serpentine,     SERPENTINE !
 
2013-04-05 10:32:03 AM  
Because we're here, lad. Nobody else. Just us

/... and a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.
 
2013-04-05 10:34:46 AM  

stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.


The funny thing is that most leadership of most nations/cultures/tribes/whathaveyou are a bunch of farkwads who did ugly things to their fellow people to become their leadership. I don't respect any of them.
 
2013-04-05 10:35:19 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk

Daaaaaaaavid Jeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnkins!
 
2013-04-05 10:36:48 AM  

You'd turn it off when I was halfway across: Because we're here, lad. Nobody else. Just us

/... and a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.


Colour-Sergeant Bourne was just AWESOME.
 
2013-04-05 10:37:33 AM  
Any warrior who can invent a devastating weapon, develop new tactics using it and name it after the sound it makes when it's pulled from you victim's body, is a pretty tough dude.

I'm just sorry Shaka didn't name his new spear the "Poit!".
 
2013-04-05 10:41:58 AM  
Ah, the bravery of colonial imperialism. I miss those days.
 
2013-04-05 10:42:05 AM  

Fear the Clam: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x354]

Daaaaaaaavid Jeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnkins!


at least he's got (Kentucky Fried) chicken.
 
2013-04-05 10:42:40 AM  

Clash City Farker: I'm no expert but...: r1niceboy: Those Limeys were all cowards. If you want real heroism, try the US 7th cavalry at Wounded Knee.

Bravo sir. You are awarded an FC (Fark Cross) for courage above and beyond the call of posting.

I prefer the US 7th Cav at Washiata River where they bravely faught the women and children and then bravely ran away when the warriors arrived.

/Gary Owen!


How about Fort Pillow?
 
2013-04-05 10:42:44 AM  
Ah, the Victoria Cross, like a Diet Purple Heart.
 
2013-04-05 10:43:15 AM  

vygramul: Nana's Vibrator: willfullyobscure: better check your colonial privilege, yo.

If your enemy outnumbers you 26+ to 1 and you win, it's not because you were incredibly brave.  It's because they were incredibly stupid.  The cheat code for "incredibly stupid enemy" is up up down down left right left right B A 007-373-5963, hold down the select button, then hit start.

They actually weren't that stupid. They were quite calculating and knew they faced a problem but thought they had the force to win. Once the cost of victory was around 10% of their force, they decided they were unwilling to pay the whole cost to finish the job. They chose not to win because the price was too steep, not because they were simply unable to.


That merely proves my saying that I use in gun control threads:  You don't have to actually be able to *WIN*, you just have to make it too expensive for the other side to win.
 
2013-04-05 10:43:45 AM  
"Private David Jenkins was among the 150 soldiers white usurpers who fought Zulus in their own land, in the imperialistic establishment of the small South African "missionary" (read: challenge to the Dutch) outpost in 1879..."

FTFT
 
2013-04-05 10:44:28 AM  
Come tell us how you slew
Those brave Arabs two by two
Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows,
How you bravely slew each one
With your sixteen pounder gun
And you frightened them poor natives to their marrow.
 
2013-04-05 10:45:29 AM  
Shoot straight, you bastards!
 
2013-04-05 10:45:50 AM  

RichieLaw: Ah, the bravery of colonial imperialism. I miss those days.


Skirt? Ha! If only. When I joined up we were still fighting colonial wars. If you saw someone in a skirt you shot him and nicked his country.
 
2013-04-05 10:50:04 AM  

MCStymie: You'd turn it off when I was halfway across: Because we're here, lad. Nobody else. Just us

/... and a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.

Colour-Sergeant Bourne was just AWESOME.


In real life, he wasn't the mature, experienced soldier you see in the movie:  He was still a couple months shy of his 25th birthday.  He'd been in the army for about 5 or 6 years at that point.

He was, however, the youngest Colour Sergeant in the British Army at the time.
 
2013-04-05 10:50:13 AM  

JackieRabbit: "Private David Jenkins was among the 150 soldiers white usurpers who fought Zulus in their own land, in the imperialistic establishment of the small South African "missionary" (read: challenge to the Dutch) outpost in 1879..."


Well, the Zulu should have had a flag
 
2013-04-05 10:50:20 AM  

GoldDude: That was a truly brutal war.
My great-grandad lost a leg in that battle.
Some question as to whether it was from a mosquito or a tiger...

[i125.photobucket.com image 636x438]


A tiger?  In africa?
 
2013-04-05 10:52:35 AM  
On the "mad minute" using the Lee-Enfield rifle:

When WWI broke out, the small British Expeditionary Force was sent to France to assist the French and Belgians. The German Kaiser supposedly referred to the BEF as "a contemptible little army", so the cheeky soldiers adopted it as their own and called themselves "The Old Contemptibles". With both the French and Belgians in retreat early in the war, the Old Contemptibles were thrown into the breech to halt the German advance.

At Mons, eight batallions of German infantry crashed into two batallions of the BEF. The Mad Minute began. One German officer described it: "Well entrenched and completely hidden, the enemy opened a murderous fire...the casualties increased...the rushes became shorter, and finally the whole advance stopped...with bloody losses, the attack gradually came to an end."

Private Smiley of the Gordon Highlanders described the British end of things. "Poor devils! They advanced in companies of quite 150 men in files five deep, and our rifle has a flat trajectory up to 600 yards. Guess the result. We could steady our rifles on the trench and take deliberate aim. The first company was mown down by a volley at 700 yards, and in their insane formation every bullet was almost sure to find two billets. The other companies kept advancing very slowly, using their dead comrades as cover, but they had absolutely no chance."

At Mons and then again at the First Battle of Ypres, often against overwhelming odds, the Old Contemptibles ground the German advance down with their rifles. Near Oburg, a few companies of the BEF stopped an entire German regiment, and were froced to retire only when two additioin regiments attacked them. When the flanks (not held by British forces) caved in, 2nd Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers covered the retreat. This single batallion, although nearly decimated itself, held the line against nine enemy batallions.

In an after-action report, one Prussian officer estimated that the British had at least 28 machine guns per batallion. In reality, they had only TWO machine guns per batallion. All that firepower came from bolt-action rifles in the hands of men well-trained in their use.
 
2013-04-05 10:57:05 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite


I detect no inaccuracies in your post.  But you omitted the fact that he had to rush them into use before the war ended so he could see first hand what it did to a real city, and that the Japanese thought it was just another napalming.
 
2013-04-05 10:57:21 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: On the "mad minute" using the Lee-Enfield rifle:

When WWI broke out, the small British Expeditionary Force was sent to France to assist the French and Belgians. The German Kaiser supposedly referred to the BEF as "a contemptible little army", so the cheeky soldiers adopted it as their own and called themselves "The Old Contemptibles". With both the French and Belgians in retreat early in the war, the Old Contemptibles were thrown into the breech to halt the German advance.

At Mons, eight batallions of German infantry crashed into two batallions of the BEF. The Mad Minute began. One German officer described it: "Well entrenched and completely hidden, the enemy opened a murderous fire...the casualties increased...the rushes became shorter, and finally the whole advance stopped...with bloody losses, the attack gradually came to an end."

Private Smiley of the Gordon Highlanders described the British end of things. "Poor devils! They advanced in companies of quite 150 men in files five deep, and our rifle has a flat trajectory up to 600 yards. Guess the result. We could steady our rifles on the trench and take deliberate aim. The first company was mown down by a volley at 700 yards, and in their insane formation every bullet was almost sure to find two billets. The other companies kept advancing very slowly, using their dead comrades as cover, but they had absolutely no chance."

At Mons and then again at the First Battle of Ypres, often against overwhelming odds, the Old Contemptibles ground the German advance down with their rifles. Near Oburg, a few companies of the BEF stopped an entire German regiment, and were froced to retire only when two additioin regiments attacked them. When the flanks (not held by British forces) caved in, 2nd Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers covered the retreat. This single batallion, although nearly decimated itself, held the line against nine enemy batallions.

In an after-action report, one Prussian officer estimated that the British had at least 28 machine guns per batallion. In reality, they had only TWO machine guns per batallion. All that firepower came from bolt-action rifles in the hands of men well-trained in their use.


This gleeful description of the deaths of thousands of individuals was chilling.
 
2013-04-05 10:59:26 AM  

dittybopper: MCStymie: You'd turn it off when I was halfway across: Because we're here, lad. Nobody else. Just us

/... and a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.

Colour-Sergeant Bourne was just AWESOME.

In real life, he wasn't the mature, experienced soldier you see in the movie:  He was still a couple months shy of his 25th birthday.  He'd been in the army for about 5 or 6 years at that point.

He was, however, the youngest Colour Sergeant in the British Army at the time.


He was also the last survivor, dying in 1946, I believe. The BBC had him on radio in the 1930s describing the battle but, like the old Dr. Who episodes, they destroyed it thinking nobody would ever want to listen to it.

Fun fact: Many of the men at Rorke's Drift had what we can now see as PTSD. Bromhead in particular never spoke about the battle, never wrote anything about it and even missed his visit to the Palace because, frankly, he didn't want to discuss it. One of the VC winners (or DSC) blew his head off in the 1890s. Another, William Jones I believe, would have episodes in the early 20th century where he would take his grandchildren and protect them from the Zulus he saw in his head.
 
2013-04-05 11:01:40 AM  

RichieLaw: This gleeful description of the deaths of thousands of individuals was chilling


Even more chilling is that senior commanders could see perfectly well that mass assaults on entrenched positions accomplished nothing more than killing lots and lots of their soldiers, and yet it still took them years to change tactics.  The governments at the time had to hide the casualty figures from the general public because they were so shocking.
 
2013-04-05 11:02:08 AM  

RichieLaw: This gleeful description of the deaths of thousands of individuals was chilling.


Why?  I mean, if you *HAVE* to kill someone, shouldn't you be cheerful about it?  After all, you're ending their life.  In all likelihood, you're the last thing that person is going to see.  Why should they go out on a somber note?  Wouldn't you rather die bemused, or, in fact, even chuckling or guffawing, then in sadness, fear, or abject terror?  I know I would.
 
2013-04-05 11:03:56 AM  

JackieRabbit: "Private David Jenkins was among the 150 soldiers white usurpers who fought Zulus in their own land, in the imperialistic establishment of the small South African "missionary" (read: challenge to the Dutch) outpost in 1879..."

FTFT


Sounds very much like Texas and the Alamo.
 
2013-04-05 11:04:05 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: On the "mad minute" using the Lee-Enfield rifle:

When WWI broke out, the small British Expeditionary Force was sent to France to assist the French and Belgians. The German Kaiser supposedly referred to the BEF as "a contemptible little army", so the cheeky soldiers adopted it as their own and called themselves "The Old Contemptibles". With both the French and Belgians in retreat early in the war, the Old Contemptibles were thrown into the breech to halt the German advance.

At Mons, eight batallions of German infantry crashed into two batallions of the BEF. The Mad Minute began. One German officer described it: "Well entrenched and completely hidden, the enemy opened a murderous fire...the casualties increased...the rushes became shorter, and finally the whole advance stopped...with bloody losses, the attack gradually came to an end."

Private Smiley of the Gordon Highlanders described the British end of things. "Poor devils! They advanced in companies of quite 150 men in files five deep, and our rifle has a flat trajectory up to 600 yards. Guess the result. We could steady our rifles on the trench and take deliberate aim. The first company was mown down by a volley at 700 yards, and in their insane formation every bullet was almost sure to find two billets. The other companies kept advancing very slowly, using their dead comrades as cover, but they had absolutely no chance."

At Mons and then again at the First Battle of Ypres, often against overwhelming odds, the Old Contemptibles ground the German advance down with their rifles. Near Oburg, a few companies of the BEF stopped an entire German regiment, and were froced to retire only when two additioin regiments attacked them. When the flanks (not held by British forces) caved in, 2nd Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers covered the retreat. This single batallion, although nearly decimated itself, held the line against nine enemy batallions.

In an after-action report, one Prussian officer estimated that the B ...


Musketry was emphasized in the pre-WWI British army to an extent that even most modern armies can only dream of. Reading the accounts of the defenders of Rorke's Drift puts this into perspective, and Isandlwana as well. The regular British troops were very steady, very good shots at ranges at 500 yards and beyond. This paid off at both battles, but only at Rorke's Drift did it help win the day. The Zulus had lots and lots of muzzleloaders but were generally poor shots. Except for the Commander at Rorke's Drift and his entourage. They had been taught to shoot by a British trader named John Dunn and were taking shots at small targets at extreme range and hitting. Most of the garrison was impressed by this.
 
2013-04-05 11:04:52 AM  

trotsky: He was also the last survivor, dying in 1946, I believe. The BBC had him on radio in the 1930s describing the battle but, like the old Dr. Who episodes, they destroyed it thinking nobody would ever want to listen to it.


Someone had the foresight to transcribe it, thankfully.
 
2013-04-05 11:07:59 AM  
Boering.
 
2013-04-05 11:09:45 AM  

vygramul: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

The funny thing is that most leadership of most nations/cultures/tribes/whathaveyou are a bunch of farkwads who did ugly things to their fellow people to become their leadership. I don't respect any of them.


That's why I live in an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. All the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more serious matters.
 
2013-04-05 11:17:42 AM  
Just because a war was wrong doesn't mean the men fighting in it weren't heroic.

The real lesson from the Battle of Rorke's Drift is how important military technology is. It wasn't just that the British firearms were superior to the Zulu muskets and spears, but it was also the technology of the fortifications the British built. Shooting from a loophole seems obvious to us, but the Zulu didn't realize how devastating it would be.

Rorke's Drift was also very significant because of the propaganda it provided for the British after the defeat at Isandlwana.
 
2013-04-05 11:18:33 AM  
Zulus... Thousands of ' em...
 
2013-04-05 11:19:25 AM  
Permission to speak, Sir!

They don't like it up 'em...
 
2013-04-05 11:24:33 AM  
dittybopper:  bemused, or, in fact, even chuckling or guffawing, then in sadness, fear, or abject terror?  I know I would.

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-05 11:28:40 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

I detect no inaccuracies in your post.  But you omitted the fact that he had to rush them into use before the war ended so he could see first hand what it did to a real city, and that the Japanese thought it was just another napalming.


The scariest thing I ever heard about LeMay was in The Fog of War DVD. Robert McNamara said during the Cuban missile crisis LeMay wanted to go first strike nuclear. Whether McNamara was confused about LeMay's position or not isn't clear but it's a little frightening to think about LeMay using nuclear weapons on the Cubans and the Soviets, especially since the Cubans had been issued permission to use their nuclear weapons.
 
2013-04-05 11:31:28 AM  
We're gonna need a bigger movie.
 
2013-04-05 11:32:42 AM  

another cultural observer: vygramul: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

The funny thing is that most leadership of most nations/cultures/tribes/whathaveyou are a bunch of farkwads who did ugly things to their fellow people to become their leadership. I don't respect any of them.

That's why I live in an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. All the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more serious matters.


Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
 
2013-04-05 11:38:07 AM  

rikdanger: Thudfark: Don't you. Point that bloody spear at me.

[hypervocal.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com image 400x266] 

You're not doing it right - and you're not using the broken voice when he gets emotional. He gets very emotional indeed.

"She was only sixteen years old. SHE WAS ONLY SIXTEEN YEARS OLD! YOU WERE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!"

That's Michael Caine


This was one of his few calm moments.
 
2013-04-05 11:38:38 AM  
People who participate in wars of aggression in defense of empire are not heroes; they're no better than the Nazis who occupied France.
 
2013-04-05 11:40:39 AM  

Krieghund: Just because a war was wrong doesn't mean the men fighting in it weren't heroic.

The real lesson from the Battle of Rorke's Drift is how important military technology is. It wasn't just that the British firearms were superior to the Zulu muskets and spears, but it was also the technology of the fortifications the British built. Shooting from a loophole seems obvious to us, but the Zulu didn't realize how devastating it would be.

Rorke's Drift was also very significant because of the propaganda it provided for the British after the defeat at Isandlwana.


You are right, the Zulus were absolutely not used to fighting a full-fledged European Army. But also that the garrison, especially as night fell, were pushed back into a extremely small space, so small that the Zulus could not even bring their full force to bear. Knight opines that perhaps half of the Zulus attacking never even saw action because the frontage the British presented kept shrinking. The movie DOES show that decently with Chard's redoubt and how much concentrated firepower he could muster.

Also, the movie totally glosses over James Dalton, the retired Sergeant and Army Commissary agent who was instrumental in the initial stages of the battle. He was as badass as Chard, Bromhead or any of the other VC winners.
 
2013-04-05 11:41:59 AM  

trotsky: Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.


I would also recommend Carnage & Culture by Victor Hanson. Only 1 Chapter dedicated to RD but makes for good reading & awesome insight.
 
2013-04-05 11:43:36 AM  

DrPainMD: People who participate in wars of aggression in defense of empire are not heroes; they're no better than the Nazis who occupied France.


Viewing heroism through the lense of moral absolutism would mean nobody, with the exception of firefighters who save orphans from infernos (and similar such people), could ever be considered a hero.

As far as military conflicts go, one side's hero is another's villain.  The Red Baron provides an appropriate example.  We didn't like him back then, but now I eat his French Bread Pizzas happily every night.
 
2013-04-05 11:48:00 AM  

stellarossa: trotsky: Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.

I would also recommend Carnage & Culture by Victor Hanson. Only 1 Chapter dedicated to RD but makes for good reading & awesome insight.


I will check that out.

I should have added to this that the Zulu King, Cetshwayo, called Isandlwana a disaster because of the immense losses inflicted on the Zulu Impis. Many authors put Zulu losses in the range of 4000 to 5000 killed and wounded.
 
2013-04-05 11:50:47 AM  

another cultural observer: DrPainMD: People who participate in wars of aggression in defense of empire are not heroes; they're no better than the Nazis who occupied France.

Viewing heroism through the lense of moral absolutism would mean nobody, with the exception of firefighters who save orphans from infernos (and similar such people), could ever be considered a hero.

As far as military conflicts go, one side's hero is another's villain.  The Red Baron provides an appropriate example.  We didn't like him back then, but now I eat his French Bread Pizzas happily every night.


Actually, in 19th Century warfare you find both sides admiring the deeds of valor done by the other side. The Zulus were so vicious after Isandhlwana because they did not want to deal with the 24th in the afterlife. They immensely respected the men of 1/24th because they fought so damn hard. Likewise, the British could not help but admire the tenacity and skill of the Zulu warriors as they fought. It's never as black and white as many people think.
 
2013-04-05 11:59:25 AM  

chopit: GoldDude: That was a truly brutal war.
My great-grandad lost a leg in that battle.
Some question as to whether it was from a mosquito or a tiger...

[i125.photobucket.com image 636x438]

A tiger?  In africa?


It probably escaped from the zoo.
 
2013-04-05 12:09:59 PM  
 Was he Leroy's ancestor by any chance?

/Maybe they didn't put him on the list because all the survivors were still pissed at him?
 
2013-04-05 12:15:11 PM  

stellarossa: dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.

Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment


Not really. They moved their regimental home depot to Wales in 1873, six years before Rorke's Drift. A LOT of Welshmen were serving in the "Warwickshire" regiment by the time of the Zulu war. Two of the 11 Victoria crosses went to Welshmen. I don't know that they had a Welsh choir, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
 
2013-04-05 12:16:57 PM  

mbillips: stellarossa: dittybopper: Great.  Now I've got "Men of Harlech" running through my brain.

Me too, despite knowing they didn't sing that at any point.

/english regiment

Not really. They moved their regimental home depot to Wales in 1873, six years before Rorke's Drift. A LOT of Welshmen were serving in the "Warwickshire" regiment by the time of the Zulu war. Two of the 11 Victoria crosses went to Welshmen. I don't know that they had a Welsh choir, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.


And Jenkins was Welsh, too.
 
2013-04-05 12:29:57 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite


Getting close.  You should have added "innocent" right before "civilians".  You gotta make them seem like they had absolutely nothing to do with the war and therefore are more innocent than the victims at Nanking.

Keep your chin up, buckaroo.  You'll get it eventually.
 
2013-04-05 12:32:10 PM  
Forget why they were there in the first place, the men themselves didn't have much choice anyway. Once the position came under attack it took a damn good bit of soldiering to hold it and years later it made a damn good bit of cinema.
 
2013-04-05 12:53:11 PM  

trotsky: another cultural observer: DrPainMD: People who participate in wars of aggression in defense of empire are not heroes; they're no better than the Nazis who occupied France.

Viewing heroism through the lense of moral absolutism would mean nobody, with the exception of firefighters who save orphans from infernos (and similar such people), could ever be considered a hero.

As far as military conflicts go, one side's hero is another's villain.  The Red Baron provides an appropriate example.  We didn't like him back then, but now I eat his French Bread Pizzas happily every night.

Actually, in 19th Century warfare you find both sides admiring the deeds of valor done by the other side. The Zulus were so vicious after Isandhlwana because they did not want to deal with the 24th in the afterlife. They immensely respected the men of 1/24th because they fought so damn hard. Likewise, the British could not help but admire the tenacity and skill of the Zulu warriors as they fought. It's never as black and white as many people think.



iseewhatyoudidthere.jpeg
 
2013-04-05 12:55:37 PM  

mbillips: And Jenkins was Welsh, too.


Well, his first name was Lleroy.
 
2013-04-05 12:57:27 PM  

stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.


Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?
 
2013-04-05 01:07:25 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: On the "mad minute" using the Lee-Enfield rifle:

When WWI broke out, the small British Expeditionary Force was sent to France to assist the French and Belgians. The German Kaiser supposedly referred to the BEF as "a contemptible little army", so the cheeky soldiers adopted it as their own and called themselves "The Old Contemptibles". With both the French and Belgians in retreat early in the war, the Old Contemptibles were thrown into the breech to halt the German advance.

At Mons, eight batallions of German infantry crashed into two batallions of the BEF. The Mad Minute began. One German officer described it: "Well entrenched and completely hidden, the enemy opened a murderous fire...the casualties increased...the rushes became shorter, and finally the whole advance stopped...with bloody losses, the attack gradually came to an end."

Private Smiley of the Gordon Highlanders described the British end of things. "Poor devils! They advanced in companies of quite 150 men in files five deep, and our rifle has a flat trajectory up to 600 yards. Guess the result. We could steady our rifles on the trench and take deliberate aim. The first company was mown down by a volley at 700 yards, and in their insane formation every bullet was almost sure to find two billets. The other companies kept advancing very slowly, using their dead comrades as cover, but they had absolutely no chance."

At Mons and then again at the First Battle of Ypres, often against overwhelming odds, the Old Contemptibles ground the German advance down with their rifles. Near Oburg, a few companies of the BEF stopped an entire German regiment, and were froced to retire only when two additioin regiments attacked them. When the flanks (not held by British forces) caved in, 2nd Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers covered the retreat. This single batallion, although nearly decimated itself, held the line against nine enemy batallions.

In an after-action report, one Prussian officer estimated that the B ...


For a tonic, read up on Gallipoli.
 
2013-04-05 01:10:35 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite


Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.
 
2013-04-05 01:12:30 PM  

RichieLaw: Ah, the bravery of colonial imperialism. I miss those days.


No matter what happens
We have got
The Maxim gun
And they have not
 
2013-04-05 01:16:01 PM  

peasants_are_revolting: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?


On the flip side, without colonialism, sub-Saharan Africa would've been free of those modern scourges:  writing, medicine, and the wheel...
 
2013-04-05 01:17:55 PM  

peasants_are_revolting: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?


The Zulus had some rifles, too, but they weren't trained with them and thus inflicted few casualties. The Zulus, like the Aztecs, were one of the most expansionist, warlike colonizing civilizations in history. The Brits just had better tech. No tears shed for the Zulu empire.
 
2013-04-05 01:20:15 PM  
Purple_Jack
 He faced  ten thousand Zulu warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and dry guava halves.He even saved the life of Douglas Haig when he was nearly killed by a pygmy woman with a sharpened mango.


Yes, that was at a time when the prerequisite for any battle was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns.
 
2013-04-05 01:24:17 PM  

spentmiles: Ah, the Victoria Cross, like a Diet Purple Heart.


People, this is how you troll.
 
2013-04-05 01:25:20 PM  
I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

--Curtis LeMay
 
2013-04-05 01:27:47 PM  

PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.


In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite
 
2013-04-05 01:28:38 PM  

Boudica's War Tampon: I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

--Curtis LeMay


Dönitz planned on calling Allied submarine officers to testify when they threatened to charge him with war crimes for unrestricted submarine warfare.
 
2013-04-05 01:33:27 PM  

stellarossa: trotsky: Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift essentially occurred at the same time. If it had not been for Bromhead, Chard and the men of B/2/24, it would have been an even worse day for Lord Chelmsford.

Suggested reading:

Zulu Rising by Ian Knight
Like Wolves in the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift by Mike Snook
Washing of the Spears by Donald R. Morris
Brave Men's Blood: The Epic of the Zulu War, 1879 by Ian Knight
Great Zulu Battles: 1838-1906 by Ian Knight

The Zulus were anything BUT helpless Africans. The Army sent against Chelmsford's Center column was something like 20,000 strong. One of the most powerful and well-organized armies in South Africa.

I would also recommend Carnage & Culture by Victor Hanson. Only 1 Chapter dedicated to RD but makes for good reading & awesome insight.


Thanks.

I have a 15 year old friend who is aspie and loves history. Any military stuff farkers recommend in books, i fling his direction.
 
2013-04-05 01:40:27 PM  

PunGent: peasants_are_revolting: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?

On the flip side, without colonialism, sub-Saharan Africa would've been free of those modern scourges:  writing, medicine, and the wheel...


I don't see a flip side. Look, unlike many who are critical of colonialism, I don't think all of Africa's problems came from Europe - further, most of their infrastructure wouldn't exist without it. But so what? The Spaniards demonized the Aztecs as being primitive and barbaric to justify their raping an entire continent. Your argument is no better.

Guess who invented written languages for most African people groups? Christian missionaries. You want to talk about gifts from one society to the next? Uganda executes gay people now, thanks to the dogma from those same Christian missionaries. I'm pretty sure gay people aren't spending their days on death row thanking the West for giving them the wheel.
 
2013-04-05 01:40:47 PM  

vygramul: Boudica's War Tampon: I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

--Curtis LeMay

Dönitz planned on calling Allied submarine officers to testify when they threatened to charge him with war crimes for unrestricted submarine warfare.


I hadn't read about LeMay's Operation Starvation. According to the wiki, it was a aerial mining of Japanese home waters and approaches that prevent food and other necessities from getting to mainland Japan and prevented resupply of Japanese troops.

Aerial mining supplemented a tight Allied submarine blockade of the home islands, drastically reducing Japan's ability to supply its overseas forces to the point that postwar analysis concluded that it could have defeated Japan on its own had it begun earlier.
 
2013-04-05 01:44:53 PM  

Boudica's War Tampon: vygramul: Boudica's War Tampon: I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

--Curtis LeMay

Dönitz planned on calling Allied submarine officers to testify when they threatened to charge him with war crimes for unrestricted submarine warfare.

I hadn't read about LeMay's Operation Starvation. According to the wiki, it was a aerial mining of Japanese home waters and approaches that prevent food and other necessities from getting to mainland Japan and prevented resupply of Japanese troops.

Aerial mining supplemented a tight Allied submarine blockade of the home islands, drastically reducing Japan's ability to supply its overseas forces to the point that postwar analysis concluded that it could have defeated Japan on its own had it begun earlier.


But, then, we wouldn't have Grave of the Fireflies.
 
2013-04-05 01:49:44 PM  

vygramul: PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.

In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite


http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiipaccauses_2.htm

We embargoed Japan because they were busy raping the shiate out of China.  They were already at war on the Korean peninsula and mainland China.  But, nice attempt at revisionist.  You know, the US actually has done a lot of honorable things contrary to your total "US=EVIL-ALL-THE-TIME" mentality.
 
2013-04-05 01:53:11 PM  

Magnus: We embargoed Japan because they were busy raping the shiate out of China.  They were already at war on the Korean peninsula and mainland China.  But, nice attempt at revisionist.  You know, the US actually has done a lot of honorable things contrary to your total "US=EVIL-ALL-THE-TIME" mentality.


I blame Poe's Law for your missing the sarcasm in "No blood for oil" is only bad when the US does it.
 
2013-04-05 01:53:50 PM  

Magnus: vygramul: PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.

In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiipaccauses_2.htm

We embargoed Japan because they were busy raping the shiate out of China.  They were already at war on the Korean peninsula and mainland China.  But, nice attempt at revisionist.  You know, the US actually has done a lot of honorable things contrary to your total "US=EVIL-ALL-THE-TIME" mentality.


Yes.  You are doing it right.
 
2013-04-05 02:05:47 PM  

netcentric: Brave?     I think the Brits shot some of their own people before the battle even started.

Not like the soliders had much of an option but to stay and shoot things up a bit....


The Natal Native Contingent broke and ran just before the Zulus arrived, leaving a gaping gap in the defensive line. The others took a dim view of this, understandably.
 
2013-04-05 02:11:31 PM  
The Zulus weren't stupid. You have to remember Shaka basically re-drew a great deal about the Zulu military. He was farking crazy and he treated his troops with violence.

The Zulus would insert a pole up someone's bottom then make him sit out in the sun, both feet on the ground and with one end of a pole up the victim's ass and the other end driven into the ground. It took a long time to die that way. Sometimes necks were broken or skulls cracked in.

The Zulus never could understand the whites' refusal to eat the thorns they pulled out of wounds. Natural antibodies.
 
2013-04-05 02:12:49 PM  

stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.


especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world
 
2013-04-05 02:17:42 PM  

Shirley Ujest: I have a 15 year old friend who is aspie and loves history. Any military stuff farkers recommend in books, i fling his direction.


The following books by David Kahn are excellent:

The Codebreakers.
Hitler's Spies
Seizing the Enigma

Another good book that is a damned good overview of the SIGINT aspect of WWII is "Codebreakers' Victory: How the Allied Cryptographers Won World War II"  By Hervie Haufler.  He was a US SIGINT weenie in Europe during WWII, but he covers all theaters of the war in a decent, readable summary.

 If your friend is major aspie and likes submarines, he'd probably love both volumes of "Hitler's U-Boat War" by Clay Blair.  It's the most comprehensive look at the Second Battle of the Atlantic in English, and it demolishes a number of cherished myths about the U-bootwaffe and their effectiveness.  Blair was a crew member of a US sub in WWII, so he's got a perspective that is unique (also, his "Silent Victory", the story of the US sub war in the Pacific, is also excellent).
 
2013-04-05 02:20:47 PM  

Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world


The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".
 
2013-04-05 02:28:23 PM  
Is this were every hyper lib social justice transfriend on fark comes in and says how bad the evil white man was for fighting back while outnumbered against 4000 beautiful sweet peace loving communist black people? Oh wait, yes it is.

please excuse the rest of the world if we do not take the consideration of what is brave and what is not, from a group of people who's bravest deed is walking into a new bar and asking for a strange beer.
 
2013-04-05 02:28:56 PM  

dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".


really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....
 
2013-04-05 02:34:15 PM  

Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....


Custer used a breech-loading rifles at the Little Bighorn. The Indians bought only the best repeating rifles money could by at trading posts. Although the Indians also had inferior weapons too.
 
2013-04-05 02:39:32 PM  

stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.


Fair enough, but nobody was more aggressively imperialistic than the Zulus. Everyone in Southern Africa feared them and were damn pleased when they got smacked down.
 
2013-04-05 02:40:56 PM  

Suede head: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Fair enough, but nobody was more aggressively imperialistic than the Zulus. Everyone in Southern Africa feared them and were damn pleased when they got smacked down.


Quiet!  You're messing with the narrative!  Racist!
 
2013-04-05 02:47:28 PM  

Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....


They weren't muzzleloaders, but they were single shot:   Martini-Henry rifle.
 
2013-04-05 02:51:26 PM  
The British being in South Africa has nothing to do with the individual bravery of the British soldiers at Rourkes Drift. Although VCs were way easier to get back then.
 
2013-04-05 02:51:54 PM  

Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....


The Martini was the last single shot breech in British service. The Lee-Metford would be along in less than five years, along with 10 round magazines and smokeless powder. The Martini was damn effective though, pretty much the pinnacle of the single shot breech loader. Plus it was almost 2 meters long with bayonet attached, perfect for close-in fighting.

The US dragged its legs for thirty years, finally adapting the Krag in 1898. Custer was killed less by his weapons and way more by his inclination to split his forces. The volunteers and the USNG was still equipped with Springfield '73s in 1898 as we went to war with Spain. Who had Mausers.
 
2013-04-05 03:55:31 PM  
You guys laugh at Spearmen, but they can beat Tanks!
 
2013-04-05 04:28:31 PM  

vygramul: PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.

In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite


No, you're not doingitrite.

We stopped trading with them because they were murdering civilians in China.
They were free to buy oil elsewhere, or you know, stop murdering people...
 
2013-04-05 04:37:37 PM  

PunGent: vygramul: PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.

In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite

No, you're not doingitrite.

We stopped trading with them because they were murdering civilians in China.
They were free to buy oil elsewhere, or you know, stop murdering people...


How naive. We pushed them around and generally made their lives miserable until they attacked us because we didn't want them taking over our markets in the Pacific.
 
2013-04-05 04:51:16 PM  

vygramul: Boudica's War Tampon: vygramul: Boudica's War Tampon: I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

--Curtis LeMay

Dönitz planned on calling Allied submarine officers to testify when they threatened to charge him with war crimes for unrestricted submarine warfare.

I hadn't read about LeMay's Operation Starvation. According to the wiki, it was a aerial mining of Japanese home waters and approaches that prevent food and other necessities from getting to mainland Japan and prevented resupply of Japanese troops.

Aerial mining supplemented a tight Allied submarine blockade of the home islands, drastically reducing Japan's ability to supply its overseas forces to the point that postwar analysis concluded that it could have defeated Japan on its own had it begun earlier.

But, then, we wouldn't have Grave of the Fireflies.


That movie annoyed the crap out of me.
Swallow your pride, put up with your aunt, get a farking job?
No, run off into the woods and let your little sister starve to death.
 
2013-04-05 04:53:49 PM  

peasants_are_revolting: PunGent: peasants_are_revolting: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?

On the flip side, without colonialism, sub-Saharan Africa would've been free of those modern scourges:  writing, medicine, and the wheel...

I don't see a flip side. Look, unlike many who are critical of colonialism, I don't think all of Africa's problems came from Europe - further, most of their infrastructure wouldn't exist without it. But so what? The Spaniards demonized the Aztecs as being primitive and barbaric to justify their raping an entire continent. Your argument is no better.

Guess who invented written languages for most African people groups? Christian missionaries. You want to talk about gifts from one society to the next? Uganda executes gay people now, thanks to the dogma from those same Christian missionaries. I'm pretty sure gay people aren't spending their days on death row thanking the West for giving them the wheel.


Wasn't justifying colonialism, just pointing out that there's usually a silver lining to every "100% evil" event.

History is complicated that way.
 
2013-04-05 05:42:06 PM  

Clash City Farker: PunGent: vygramul: PunGent: TheShavingofOccam123: Listen. For sheer bravery you cannot top air-conditioned B-29s flying low-level, facing virtually no effective anti-aircraft measures, dropping thousands upon thousands of incendiaries on civilians WHO LIVE IN WOODEN HOUSES.  Roasting 100,000 civilians in one night is a mighty brave and heroic deed.

Then LeMay got effiecient and started dropping one bomb at a time. Twice.

/amidoinitrite

Civilians who were propping up a murderous government that killed 250,000 unarmed Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid?  In a war they started?

My sympathy is limited.

In a war THEY started? Lrn2history. We cut off their oil, and "No blood for oil" only applies to the U.S.

/iamdoinitrite

No, you're not doingitrite.

We stopped trading with them because they were murdering civilians in China.
They were free to buy oil elsewhere, or you know, stop murdering people...

How naive. We pushed them around and generally made their lives miserable until they attacked us because we didn't want them taking over our markets in the Pacific.


You're trolling, right?
 
2013-04-05 06:15:58 PM  

dittybopper: Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....

They weren't muzzleloaders, but they were single shot:   Martini-Henry rifle.


Even better, once they heated up (which took as little as a dozen shots fired), you ran the risk of the brass cartridge jamming as it expanded in the overheated gun.
 
2013-04-05 06:40:14 PM  

stellarossa: dittybopper: Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....

They weren't muzzleloaders, but they were single shot:   Martini-Henry rifle.

Even better, once they heated up (which took as little as a dozen shots fired), you ran the risk of the brass cartridge jamming as it expanded in the overheated gun.


This is what happened to Custer's men at Little Bighorn.
 
2013-04-05 06:57:44 PM  

Clash City Farker: stellarossa: dittybopper: Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

especially when it's 150 men with repeating firles single shot rifles squaring off against a mass charge by guys with spears and hide shields.   it a damn Civilization game game ot life, except the spearmen never take out a tank in the real world

The Martini-Henry rifle used at Rorke's Drift was a single shot only:  You loaded one bullet, fired it, then you had to reload.

Today, that sort of rifle would be called a "Martini-Feinstein".

really? that late and they were still using single shots?  hrmm okay, my respect for the defenders goes up a notch or two then....

They weren't muzzleloaders, but they were single shot:   Martini-Henry rifle.

Even better, once they heated up (which took as little as a dozen shots fired), you ran the risk of the brass cartridge jamming as it expanded in the overheated gun.

This is what happened to Custer's men at Little Bighorn.


If only they'd been able to bring that phantom tank
 
2013-04-05 07:05:19 PM  
Many of you people have no farking clue what you're talking about.

As a direct descendant of The Hero of Mboto Gorge, the infamous 1892 battle, I call shenanigans on all of you slobs claiming the British had it easy, used cheat codes, had an unfair advantage, etc. My great-grandfather Edmund, a member of the 45th East African Rifles, may have joked that the Watusis were only armed with kiwis and dry guava halves, but there were 10,000 of them. He, at one point, even saved the life of Douglas Haig (later to be Field Marshal) from a pygmy attack.

I resent the implication that the British army was "little more than a travel agency for men with unusually high sex drives" and that "the prerequisite for any battle was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns" or that "if you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and nicked his country".

All of that is patently ludicrous on its face and anyone uttering such nonsense sould write copy for the absurdities that masquerade as comedies in these modern (or recently pre-modern) days.

You people make me laugh.

/Pffffffft!
 
2013-04-05 08:52:11 PM  

The Snow Dog: Many of you people have no farking clue what you're talking about.

As a direct descendant of The Hero of Mboto Gorge, the infamous 1892 battle, I call shenanigans on all of you slobs claiming the British had it easy, used cheat codes, had an unfair advantage, etc. My great-grandfather Edmund, a member of the 45th East African Rifles, may have joked that the Watusis were only armed with kiwis and dry guava halves, but there were 10,000 of them. He, at one point, even saved the life of Douglas Haig (later to be Field Marshal) from a pygmy attack.

I resent the implication that the British army was "little more than a travel agency for men with unusually high sex drives" and that "the prerequisite for any battle was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns" or that "if you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and nicked his country".

All of that is patently ludicrous on its face and anyone uttering such nonsense sould write copy for the absurdities that masquerade as comedies in these modern (or recently pre-modern) days.

You people make me laugh.

/Pffffffft!


Should have seen some of the things my family did to whiteys on the plains, until we figured it would be better to assimilate and survive.
 
2013-04-05 11:11:59 PM  

The Snow Dog: Many of you people have no farking clue what you're talking about.

As a direct descendant of The Hero of Mboto Gorge, the infamous 1892 battle, I call shenanigans on all of you slobs claiming the British had it easy, used cheat codes, had an unfair advantage, etc. My great-grandfather Edmund, a member of the 45th East African Rifles, may have joked that the Watusis were only armed with kiwis and dry guava halves, but there were 10,000 of them. He, at one point, even saved the life of Douglas Haig (later to be Field Marshal) from a pygmy attack.

I resent the implication that the British army was "little more than a travel agency for men with unusually high sex drives" and that "the prerequisite for any battle was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns" or that "if you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and nicked his country".

All of that is patently ludicrous on its face and anyone uttering such nonsense sould write copy for the absurdities that masquerade as comedies in these modern (or recently pre-modern) days.

You people make me laugh.

/Pffffffft!




I have one thing to say to that: wibble.
 
2013-04-05 11:33:56 PM  

Slam1263: The Snow Dog: Many of you people have no farking clue what you're talking about.

As a direct descendant of The Hero of Mboto Gorge, the infamous 1892 battle, I call shenanigans on all of you slobs claiming the British had it easy, used cheat codes, had an unfair advantage, etc. My great-grandfather Edmund, a member of the 45th East African Rifles, may have joked that the Watusis were only armed with kiwis and dry guava halves, but there were 10,000 of them. He, at one point, even saved the life of Douglas Haig (later to be Field Marshal) from a pygmy attack.

I resent the implication that the British army was "little more than a travel agency for men with unusually high sex drives" and that "the prerequisite for any battle was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns" or that "if you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and nicked his country".

All of that is patently ludicrous on its face and anyone uttering such nonsense sould write copy for the absurdities that masquerade as comedies in these modern (or recently pre-modern) days.

You people make me laugh.

/Pffffffft!

Should have seen some of the things my family did to whiteys on the plains, until we figured it would be better to assimilate and survive.


I'm sure your family ended up having reservations about it later
 
2013-04-06 01:13:36 AM  
The Zulus should have banned guns.  Then they would have won!

LULz
 
2013-04-06 06:42:57 AM  

mbillips: peasants_are_revolting: stuhayes2010: It's hard for me to use the word Hero for invading imperial forces killing native Zulus.

Exactly. How the fark is this heroic? Oh, nice job, guys, you invaded another continent and slaughtered a whole bunch of its inhabitants. You managed to do this using rifles against their spears and arrows. Pretty goddamn heroic. Next, why don't you go and stomp on some puppies?

The Zulus had some rifles, too, but they weren't trained with them and thus inflicted few casualties. The Zulus, like the Aztecs, were one of the most expansionist, warlike colonizing civilizations in history. The Brits just had better tech. No tears shed for the Zulu empire.


Not to mention their leaders tended to be so batshiat crazy they made the Hapsburgs seem like models of sanity by comparison. Shaka impoverished his own people when his mother died by ordering all cows nursing calves to be killed, so that the calves could share in his grief. As a result, they lost the calves too. And any nursing woman was forbidden to breastfeed her child, and other absolutely dumbfark stuff. Kinda like the President of Zimbabwe giving away all the farmland to people who didn't know how to grow anything other than toe fungus.
 
2013-04-06 12:13:34 PM  
No comedians, please.
 
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