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(Kotaku)   It's amazing how many high-level execs refuse to learn that "always on and connected" is not a good thing   (kotaku.com) divider line 237
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8322 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Apr 2013 at 8:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-05 09:19:06 AM

Doc Daneeka: "Deal with it" = buy a PS4 or WiiU instead.

Vote with your dollars people.  If you find this outrageous (and you should - requiring an internet connection for a single-player experience is unnecessary, controlling, and arrogant, and bound to cause problems for lots of people), then spend your money elsewhere.


This is also much more cut and dry than with games. With software its usually the publisher that imposes something like this on the developer. You have to weigh your desire to support the developer against your desire to punish the publisher. Here it's the hardware manufacturer limiting its own tech to screw you. And almost no games are exclusives anymore. So unless this thing farts rainbows why would you buy it over a PS4 or a PC?

Better not be true for Microsoft's sake
 
2013-04-05 09:19:42 AM

Hiro Nakamura: So what I'm hearing is fark me if I have to deploy to another shiathole and want to take my games with me.


Nailed it. My first thought. "Awesome, so I deploy again, no more MWR tents with consoles and whatnot, since we aren't going to be able to dedicate a portion of our bandwidth simply for videogames".
 
2013-04-05 09:23:22 AM

nocturnal001: Alonjar: I can see both sides of the argument.  Players look at it from the perspective of being farked over by Activision/EA shiatting on their customers by cheaping out and not placing appropriate server infrastructure for their always online games, combined with horrible cost cutting based programming and flawed software design.  So we hate it.

Microsoft looks at it from the perspective of their xbox Live service, which for general discussion purposes never goes down or gets overloaded, because microsoft knows This shiat Matters to their customers.  So it makes sense they would have a different perspective, since they dont mind paying the money for appropriate servers and competent programming.

I agree in general with the "get with the times" statement though... different people have different priorities, but I for example take my internet connection seriously, and it is one of the primary factors I look at when moving and choosing a home.  If its got bullshiat internet, no thanks.  Next.

/Microsoft exec still a douche though

So if they now make me have it, do I get to stop paying them 60 a year for it?

This is all about piracy, period. Modding consoles is such a pita that its not like it is ever going to be widespread.

The major flaw here (same with EA) is that they piss off their paying customers just to keep some others for getting their stuff for free. Guess what guys? You can probably not convert pirates to paying customers. This business model may reduce piracy, but at a cost to total revenue.


Actually I pirate all the time but manily due to lack of funds. A lot of the games that I pirate and love I wind up buying later on.
/Especially when it's the Steam Sale. I make sure to do my best to get money when that happens.
//And the humble bundle, and the Indy Bundle.
///What I'm trying to say is lower your prices game industry. You no longer need physical copies to sell games anymore.
 
2013-04-05 09:24:00 AM
Voting with my dollars?

Upgraded the PC graphics card.  The xBox collects dust except for when my kids remember we have one.

I'm done with consoles.
 
2013-04-05 09:25:12 AM
The analogy using a vacuum cleaner and electricity is farking idiotic.  Most vacuum cleaners strictly require electricity by the nature of the device itself, whereas an always-on internet connection is only a "requirement" by virtue of some asshole exec deciding to make it a requirement.
 
2013-04-05 09:26:43 AM

scarmig: Voting with my dollars?

Upgraded the PC graphics card.  The xBox collects dust except for when my kids remember we have one.

I'm done with consoles.


The Wii is like this for me except I've decided to play rock band again. My PS3 on the other hand gets enough love. I love gamefly.
 
2013-04-05 09:27:24 AM

RoxtarRyan: Hiro Nakamura: So what I'm hearing is fark me if I have to deploy to another shiathole and want to take my games with me.

Nailed it. My first thought. "Awesome, so I deploy again, no more MWR tents with consoles and whatnot, since we aren't going to be able to dedicate a portion of our bandwidth simply for videogames".


Has anyone told him to think of the troops? I'd like to hear his answer on that.
 
2013-04-05 09:29:07 AM
I find this hilarious.  Microsoft is really a train wreck the past few years.  The 360's interface gets shiattier with every update, Windows 8 is a turd and their strategy with it and the tablets is arrogant, and now this shiat.  I don't even care if this thing turns out to not be "always on" I'm not touching it with a 10 foot pole.  And I own a 360 and the original xbox.  It'll be funny to sit back and watch the hate flow if they announce the new console and not only is it "always on" but kinect is required and the camera can't be disabled.  Gonna be some funny threads to read if so.

I'll just wait for all the kiddos to sell off their 360 games on ebay and snatch em up for pennies.  My family will have enough games to play for life.
 
2013-04-05 09:29:38 AM
You know why this shiat works and they keep doing it?

Because millions of idiots keep buying the stuff even after biatching about it.

Diablo 3...Simcity ....all examples of horrible fails of a launch yet people line up and throw money at them.

They know you people just biatch and moan and then throw money at it so you can biatch and moan and try and get something out of them for free.

No one learns.
 
2013-04-05 09:30:19 AM
Oh and Steambox might be the winner in the nextgen consoles.  I'm very curious to learn all the details.
 
2013-04-05 09:31:35 AM
If this is the way the 720 will work, will not buy.  Video games aren't THAT big of deal to me at this point.

Would I like to have the next generation of games?  Yes.  But as others have said internet connections can go down, and there are occasions where I like to take the console with me to another location that may not have a connection (let's say, a cabin out in the wilderness for rainy days, or other vacation destination).
 
2013-04-05 09:31:40 AM

Keywork99: This guy's a damn idiot. Whether you agree with always online or not, having someone at Microsoft telling their customers to "deal with it" is unacceptable. If I told one of our customers that at my place of employment, my ass would be on the street within the hour.

When are people going to learn that if you are employed, you are a representative of the company you are with whether you are clocked in to work or not, and you can't just say stupid crap like this online? Are people that idiotic?

Jesus, dude. Just shut up.


I think he's just preparing everyone for what was already rumored.
 
2013-04-05 09:31:43 AM
Entitled twat.
 
2013-04-05 09:33:48 AM
If my customer base was willing to put up with the hardware failure rate of the 360 during its early life and continued to do business with me I'd be pretty confident that nothing I could do would ever turn them against me... Ever. I would even go so far as to get confused when they actually got upset about something.

I've always said that no product could ever have the failure rate of the 360 and remain on the market... I'm trying to imagine what would happen if a high end video card had that kind of failure rate.

Or even better, a hard drive.

Hell even a NIC with that kind of failure rate would turn a million IT people against your company forever.

But a console? Please sir, may I have another?
 
2013-04-05 09:35:44 AM
You'd think after Sony royally farked the PS3 launch and essentially gave XBOX who knows how many millions as a result Microsoft would have learned not to piss off the fanbase prior to a new system release.
 
2013-04-05 09:37:40 AM

narkor: So some farkers believe that anything said on a public forum that can be tied back to their place of employment should reflect on their employability.

Good to know.



It is nice to know that some farkers have a little common sense.
 
2013-04-05 09:38:19 AM
I want an "always online" refrigerator. That way whenever there is a Comcast service interruption, I can console myself by trying to eat all the ice cream before it melts.
 
2013-04-05 09:38:24 AM
www.geek.com

Go ahead.  Keep pissing off your base.  Brand loyalty is fleeting.
 
2013-04-05 09:40:13 AM

stovepipe: Windows 8 is a turd


Tar and feather me if you will, but once I experienced Win 8 on a true tablet I have to honestly say its a farking amazing piece of software. Now when I tried it on a laptop, yeah I was pretty 'meh' but on my new tablet..amazing.

I'll agree with your point about the xbox interface being pretty shiatty. Next update though they are supposedly going to a tiled interface ala Win 8, so with the Kinect it should be ultra easy to navigate. And also add Kinect ability in all facets of the interface since right now certain parts still require a remote or controller.

As much as you might hate on them, MS does learn from their fark ups.
 
2013-04-05 09:40:35 AM

scottydoesntknow: Has anyone told him to think of the troops? I'd like to hear his answer on that.


Dude, has anyone told him to think of the people with Time Warner cable or AT&T DSL?

Christ, being in IT, I've talked to thousands of people who suffer with upload speeds barely touching .6Mbps. Barely enough to do a VOIP phone call, forget having to constantly update with a video game server.
 
2013-04-05 09:41:23 AM
Off topic but...

You know what's really amazing to me, how many execs at my own company can't work an excel spreadsheet. Every once in a while I have to pass some data upstairs to the C-suite folks for internal use and I inevitably get the email or phone call asking them how to sort, filter, go from tab to tab, etc. I understand that they're up there making very important and serious decisions and their job doesn't involve the regular use of excel but at some point, doesn't EVERYONE in the business community learn at least the basics of excel?
 
2013-04-05 09:42:28 AM
He kinda has a point. Yeah it sucks for rural folks without access to broadband, but internet has become a utility. They didnt used to be able to get electricity out in the sticks either, did that stop anyone from selling electric lights? If my power goes out frequently do i biatch that all my stupid devices need to be plugged in to work, or do i biatch about my power company?
 
2013-04-05 09:42:59 AM

stovepipe: Oh and Steambox might be the winner in the nextgen consoles.  I'm very curious to learn all the details.


I don't have much faith in the Steambox. It seems like all Valve is going to do is split their own PC base. Sure there are still a lot of questions to be answered, but I don't see it working out well.
 
2013-04-05 09:43:46 AM

Dimensio: What are you purchasing? When I last priced video cards, they were more expensive than any current generation game console.


I'm running a card I bought a year and a half ago for $100. As far as I know, it will run every game out there. Sometimes I don't get to crank all the settings to the max, but I still get better visuals than consoles. Plus, with Steam sales, I have a huge backlog of games I bought incredibly cheaply.

If you're attached to having a controller, for some reason, XBox controllers work great on the PC.
 
2013-04-05 09:46:35 AM

thatboyoverthere: What I'm trying to say is lower your prices game industry. You no longer need physical copies to sell games anymore.


What does that have to do with anything? The cost of the physical copy, when produced in bulk, is pennies per disc. The retail space isn't exactly a lot, either. Cheaper than books, and the mass-market paperbacks are already so cheap that they're basically considered disposable goods by the industry (which is why unsold books are supposed to be destroyed).

The contribution of the physical product to the cost-of-goods-sold is trivial. It's the development budget which takes up the majority of the per-unit COGS, and even then, when they sell AAA-titles to millions, that cost is amortized so much that it's pretty trivial.

The main reason video game cost $60 a game is because the market will pay $60 for a new game. They ship enough units at that price point that they can generally make a profit on a successful title, and not lose their shirts on an unsuccessful one.
 
2013-04-05 09:48:44 AM

narkor: So some farkers believe that anything said on a public forum that can be tied back to their place of employment should reflect on their employability.

Good to know.


Well, in this case it's not "anything said... that can be tied back to their place of employment". Adam Orth publicly stated on his profile that he was a creative director at Microsoft, told dissatisfied customers to "deal with it", denigrated people who lived in places like Janesville, WI and Blacksburg, VA. Then he tried to say he was just joking with a friend before making his Twitter private.

Now, I'm not saying it should reflect on his employability directly, but rather be an indicator of his judgement. I'm a low level manager in a large company (although not in the realm of Microsoft). One of the things we are told is that we represent the company. Everyone who gets promoted/hired beyond the low/entry level gets told that. What we say publicly, when we are talking in a business setting, talking about business, or about something related and we are identified as part of the company, can reflect on the company. If this was a joke as he claimed, then he showed horrible judgement by doing it in a very public forum. If it wasn't a joke, then he showed horrible judgement by talking about it prior to release by the company.
 
2013-04-05 09:48:58 AM

rtaylor92: Off topic but...

You know what's really amazing to me, how many execs at my own company can't work an excel spreadsheet. Every once in a while I have to pass some data upstairs to the C-suite folks for internal use and I inevitably get the email or phone call asking them how to sort, filter, go from tab to tab, etc. I understand that they're up there making very important and serious decisions and their job doesn't involve the regular use of excel but at some point, doesn't EVERYONE in the business community learn at least the basics of excel?


My dad writes out spreadsheets by hand. On graph paper. It's absurd, but he refuses to learn Excel. Old people and technology just do not mix.
 
2013-04-05 09:49:10 AM

Cyno01: He kinda has a point. Yeah it sucks for rural folks without access to broadband, but internet has become a utility. They didnt used to be able to get electricity out in the sticks either, did that stop anyone from selling electric lights? If my power goes out frequently do i biatch that all my stupid devices need to be plugged in to work, or do i biatch about my power company?


Except they are intentionally designing in this requirement, that is otherwise not an intrinsic part of the product.  Your analogy doesn't work because light bulbs fill no purpose without electricity.  A gaming system without internet still works as a gaming system.  Well, apparently except for the next Xbox.
 
2013-04-05 09:51:39 AM
I have long wondered where Jeff went.
 
2013-04-05 09:51:56 AM

t3knomanser: way south: Some suit that works for them vented on twitter as they tend to do.

He vented on a topic clearly related to his work. Whether officially or not, he was clearly representing Microsoft, and in that capacity, insulted and mocked customers.




At present this is still a personal tiff between him and people on the Internet who have yet to be violated. Nothing as been released, nothing has been demonstrated. I can't even play devils advocate because he hasn't shown this brave new world of his.

We are getting bent out of shape over nothing.
 
2013-04-05 09:52:15 AM

Cyno01: but internet has become a utility


But these always on consoles don't simply require you to access a utility. They also require you to use that utility to access a specific collection of servers. A physical product which I have purchased, which has a slew of use-cases that have nothing to do with the Internet or with Microsoft (or EA's, or whoever's) servers, is now dependent, not only upon a utility, but upon an endpoint over which I have no control.

If I want to play a single-player game, what logic is there to connect to remote servers for it to work? What do I do when those servers cease to function?
 
2013-04-05 09:52:26 AM

t3knomanser: What does that have to do with anything? The cost of the physical copy, when produced in bulk, is pennies per disc. The retail space isn't exactly a lot, either. Cheaper than books, and the mass-market paperbacks are already so cheap that they're basically considered disposable goods by the industry (which is why unsold books are supposed to be destroyed).


The retailer's gotta get a cut. They're not a charity. The cost of each unit may be vanishingly small, but the cut of profits that the retailer takes is not.

Lack of physical products or need to kickback money to console manufacturers is what allows downloadable PC games to be so, so much cheaper than console games.
 
2013-04-05 09:52:45 AM
This is just rich people refusing to understand that their customers might be poor/ that poor people often don't have things as nice as themselves.
 
2013-04-05 09:53:14 AM

Erix: Cyno01: He kinda has a point. Yeah it sucks for rural folks without access to broadband, but internet has become a utility. They didnt used to be able to get electricity out in the sticks either, did that stop anyone from selling electric lights? If my power goes out frequently do i biatch that all my stupid devices need to be plugged in to work, or do i biatch about my power company?

Except they are intentionally designing in this requirement, that is otherwise not an intrinsic part of the product.  Your analogy doesn't work because light bulbs fill no purpose without electricity.  A gaming system without internet still works as a gaming system.  Well, apparently except for the next Xbox.


That's why his vacuum cleaner analogy fails. If my electricity goes out, my xbox won't work either, so I shouldn't buy an xbox? The vacuum cleaner REQUIRES energy to run. If Hoover built a vacuum that requires an always-online connection, no way in hell will I buy that vacuum.
 
2013-04-05 09:53:16 AM

Cyno01: but internet has become a utility.


It really hasn't.  Oddly enough, IIRC, George W Bush tried to make it so, tried to get a bill passed that made broadband internet like the telephone landline (everyone will have access to it), but it got shot down. Likely, the only way it will become a utility is if more control is handed to the government for it, or at the very least it will become more regulated.
 
2013-04-05 09:55:35 AM

Flappyhead: You'd think after Sony royally farked the PS3 launch and essentially gave XBOX who knows how many millions as a result Microsoft would have learned not to piss off the fanbase prior to a new system release.


Third console syndrome is in effect.  The xbox did well, and the 360 did excellent in some areas, so MS is seemingly adopting the same thing that sony did for the ps3 and Nintendo for the N64:  make the device they want, gamers be damned.  After all, they think they have a captive audience.
 
2013-04-05 10:00:24 AM

thurstonxhowell: The cost of each unit may be vanishingly small, but the cut of profits that the retailer takes is not.


Their per-unit profit is not that large- retail margins are razor thin. And these companies still make up the backbone of the distribution chain, and they will  not be happy about being undercut by online sales.

Besides, the key point I'm getting at is the COGS has nothing to do with the price. It could cost $0.02/copy, but if enough people are happy to pay $60, guess how much the company selling it is going to charge?
 
2013-04-05 10:01:24 AM

t3knomanser: thatboyoverthere: What I'm trying to say is lower your prices game industry. You no longer need physical copies to sell games anymore.

What does that have to do with anything? The cost of the physical copy, when produced in bulk, is pennies per disc. The retail space isn't exactly a lot, either. Cheaper than books, and the mass-market paperbacks are already so cheap that they're basically considered disposable goods by the industry (which is why unsold books are supposed to be destroyed).

The contribution of the physical product to the cost-of-goods-sold is trivial. It's the development budget which takes up the majority of the per-unit COGS, and even then, when they sell AAA-titles to millions, that cost is amortized so much that it's pretty trivial.

The main reason video game cost $60 a game is because the market will pay $60 for a new game. They ship enough units at that price point that they can generally make a profit on a successful title, and not lose their shirts on an unsuccessful one.


A digital copy should cost less than a physical copy because it offers an inferior value proposition to the consumer.  A physical copy can be loaned to a friend.  A physical copy can be resold, allowing the purchaser to recoup some of the cost.

That's why I opt for the cartridge version of games for my 3DS.  I'll always be able to re-sell them down the line if I wish.
 
2013-04-05 10:02:36 AM

way south: At present this is still a personal tiff between him and people on the Internet who have yet to be violated.


That's the exact point I'm making. This is a personal tiff between an industry professional in a highly visible role and the customers he hopes to sell things to. Even though he was not officially speaking for Microsoft, we can assume that,  as an executive responsible for the XBox, his beliefs represent the beliefs of an executive responsible for the XBox.
 
2013-04-05 10:02:57 AM

StrangeQ: nocturnal001: I seriously might not buy the new Xbox if its always on.

Yes, you will.  And they know it.

It doesn't matter what kind of abuse game and console developers pile on gamers, they will always come back and buy because they are hopelessly and pathetically addicted.


I still haven't purchased the new Sim City. I would have if the online aspect was optional.
 
2013-04-05 10:02:58 AM

Kiribub: Well, if by "deal with it" you mean "exercise choice when purchasing a new console" and send my money to a different company? Sure thing.


Exactly. Does anyone remember the software QuarkXPress?  I didn't think so.
 
2013-04-05 10:03:53 AM

Antimatter: Flappyhead: You'd think after Sony royally farked the PS3 launch and essentially gave XBOX who knows how many millions as a result Microsoft would have learned not to piss off the fanbase prior to a new system release.

Third console syndrome is in effect.  The xbox did well, and the 360 did excellent in some areas, so MS is seemingly adopting the same thing that sony did for the ps3 and Nintendo for the N64:  make the device they want, gamers be damned.  After all, they think they have a captive audience.


I was always an Xbox player because the PS3 line up didn't appeal to me.  What happened with the PS3 launch?

/Too lazy to google
 
2013-04-05 10:04:35 AM
Those soldiers in Kandahar should really get with the times and get internet.

I mean, the Taliban provides Internet doesn't it?

And those people on submarines have internet too.

Internet is now a fundamental human right in the military. like water. So you can enjoy it anywhere

/if there is any argument for not making a console online it is the fact you are farking over members of the military by doing so.
//They deserve all the fun time they want.
 
2013-04-05 10:08:07 AM

Doc Daneeka: A digital copy should cost less than a physical copy because it offers an inferior value proposition to the consumer.


I've bought a few online games that didn't come with an instruction booklet, so when the first thing that happens in the game is a big explosion and you have to run away while doing sidekicks and cooking scrambled eggs, I had no idea what buttons to push. Had to pause the game and look up controller specs online (damn game had no controller map in the pause menu).

Maybe I'm old school, but I like the little inserts with video games, especially if they have a little backstory in them, explains a bit about the main character, or gives you examples of controller combos. Plus, it gives me something to read while I'm installing it. Hate when newer games, especially physical ones, don't put anything with the disc aside from more advertisements for other products. They remind me of those massive coupon inserts that came with the newspaper (remember those?). I'll give you one guess at what publisher is the biggest offender of that.   ;)
 
2013-04-05 10:08:52 AM

Doc Daneeka: t3knomanser: thatboyoverthere: What I'm trying to say is lower your prices game industry. You no longer need physical copies to sell games anymore.

What does that have to do with anything? The cost of the physical copy, when produced in bulk, is pennies per disc. The retail space isn't exactly a lot, either. Cheaper than books, and the mass-market paperbacks are already so cheap that they're basically considered disposable goods by the industry (which is why unsold books are supposed to be destroyed).

The contribution of the physical product to the cost-of-goods-sold is trivial. It's the development budget which takes up the majority of the per-unit COGS, and even then, when they sell AAA-titles to millions, that cost is amortized so much that it's pretty trivial.

The main reason video game cost $60 a game is because the market will pay $60 for a new game. They ship enough units at that price point that they can generally make a profit on a successful title, and not lose their shirts on an unsuccessful one.

A digital copy should cost less than a physical copy because it offers an inferior value proposition to the consumer.  A physical copy can be loaned to a friend.  A physical copy can be resold, allowing the purchaser to recoup some of the cost.

That's why I opt for the cartridge version of games for my 3DS.  I'll always be able to re-sell them down the line if I wish.


You do realize that along with an always-on requirement, discs being playable only on the first console used is also rumored for the 720. Thus eliminating your argument.
 
2013-04-05 10:10:14 AM

scottydoesntknow: RoxtarRyan: Hiro Nakamura: So what I'm hearing is fark me if I have to deploy to another shiathole and want to take my games with me.

Nailed it. My first thought. "Awesome, so I deploy again, no more MWR tents with consoles and whatnot, since we aren't going to be able to dedicate a portion of our bandwidth simply for videogames".

Has anyone told him to think of the troops? I'd like to hear his answer on that.


I know you're just snarkin' but it's just one example of a portion of the market that will be excluded. My family lives in southern Illinois and can only get 1M download speeds still- on a good day. I live in the middle of a decent sized city with Charter and a fiber optic alternative so it's not an issue for me until I want to take me system outside of my home. Literally anywhere else I travel to on a regular basis won't afford me he same opportunity that I have at my house.
 
2013-04-05 10:10:56 AM
www.oandp.com
 
2013-04-05 10:11:27 AM
Gentlemen(I would say ladies too but it IS a gaming thread),

The choice is clear.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-05 10:11:30 AM
Maybe if the US's internet infrastructure and speed weren't actually made up of a giant bowl of dicks trying to operate a treadmill, we could revisit this discussion with more depth on both sides of the debate.  Until then, the situation is fairly shiat.
 
2013-04-05 10:13:47 AM

Strategeryz0r: Gentlemen(I would say ladies too but it IS a gaming thread),

The choice is clear.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x478]


LOL!!! Did you read the review on the Verge?
 
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