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(NBC News)   This may come as a shock to some of you, but the Church of Scientology ran a sham drug treatment center to recruit members and scam people out of money   (rockcenter.nbcnews.com) divider line 47
    More: Obvious, Church of Scientology, Narconon, Lucas Catton, Rock Center, sales techniques  
•       •       •

8950 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2013 at 12:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-05 03:08:19 AM
7 votes:
Before I read Going Clear, I wrote Scientology off as a scam, but now I'm convinced it is an insane cult. David Miscivage is deeply unhinged. He turns on people for the smallest of things and is physically violent (hitting and choking people out of the blue) and a huge fame whore. The whole religion is a reflection of his and L Ron's mental illness. It's a deeply sick organization.
2013-04-05 01:22:16 AM
6 votes:
I'll just leave this here.

rationalwiki.org
2013-04-05 12:21:56 AM
6 votes:
The hell you say...


i28.photobucket.com
2013-04-05 12:26:51 AM
5 votes:
This has been going on for decades now. It become really prevalent in the Fire and EMS community when Scientology targeted the 9/11 Responders to the WTC in New York with their "purification rundowns" claiming to be able to cure their lung and heart conditions through narcanon.

It was also one of the reasons the 9/11 Responders Compensation Bill to provide for the continuing healthcare of those men and women was delayed for a decade, because a select group of them, along with the Scientologists, demanded to get federal money for their quackery.
2013-04-05 02:47:38 AM
4 votes:

Lusiphur: RoboZombie: And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)

Yes, it's a cult. Yes, they do terrible things. But in the last decade, the Catholic church has covered up and saved how many child molesters from having to face justice? Islam has left how many dead in Iraq, and Iran, and Egypt, and the rest of the Middle East and the world? Hard-line Judaism in Israel has left how many Palestinians dead?

Scientology is a terrible crime against humanity, but it is no worse than any of the other major religions. It SEEMS worse, because it's young enough that most members are still in the "hard-line, born-again, recent convert extremist" phase, but as time goes by, it will mellow out like other religions. We're already seeing it, with sects and break-away faiths that are far less extreme in their doctrines forming all around the country. As it grows and ages, it will lose the ability to keep such rigid control over its members, and it will cease trying. In the meantime, while it has a high body-count, it's not even comparable to the three big faiths. Not even close, no matter how many slaves they have on their cruise ship armada, or how many people's lives they try to destroy for ratting on them or leaving the church.

/ALL religion sucks


Yes, yes it is. And this story is the perfect example of how the they are different.

You can rag on organized religion for a million different reasons, however an honest person must also admit that there are times when organized religion actually succeeds in meeting its mission.

One of these ways is through the famous series of 12-step programs, which ask addicts to give up their life to a higher power. These programs do not work for everybody, however they clearly do work for many people.  There are 3 major differences between 12-step programs like AA and Narcanon:

1. Documented success rates
2. Licensed and trained staff
3. Free of charge

These Narcanon sites make-up success rates to get people in the door. They do not hire trained staff. They charge $30,000 per patient.  They offer no results.

There is a huge difference between offering a rehabilitation service for the purpose of helping people vs. pffering a rehabilitation service for the purpose of making money.
2013-04-05 01:02:44 AM
4 votes:

GreatGlavinsGhost: Dr.Zom: Considering Hubbard was a con man and drug addict this makes perfect sense.

I'm starting to think he also had BPD.


Psychopathy worsened by drug use, if I were to armchair diagnose.

Facet 1: Interpersonal
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Facet 2: Affective
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Check check check.....
2013-04-05 12:51:57 AM
4 votes:
Considering Hubbard was a con man and drug addict this makes perfect sense.
2013-04-05 12:17:11 AM
4 votes:
Just read this article. These guys are heroes. Freaking $cientology! And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)
2013-04-05 11:23:16 AM
3 votes:
Read this about about 33-34 years ago....still gets right to business today:

i466.photobucket.com
2013-04-05 04:13:27 AM
3 votes:

dave2198: Lusiphur: RoboZombie: And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)

Yes, it's a cult. Yes, they do terrible things. But in the last decade, the Catholic church has covered up and saved how many child molesters from having to face justice? Islam has left how many dead in Iraq, and Iran, and Egypt, and the rest of the Middle East and the world? Hard-line Judaism in Israel has left how many Palestinians dead?

Scientology is a terrible crime against humanity, but it is no worse than any of the other major religions. It SEEMS worse, because it's young enough that most members are still in the "hard-line, born-again, recent convert extremist" phase, but as time goes by, it will mellow out like other religions. We're already seeing it, with sects and break-away faiths that are far less extreme in their doctrines forming all around the country. As it grows and ages, it will lose the ability to keep such rigid control over its members, and it will cease trying. In the meantime, while it has a high body-count, it's not even comparable to the three big faiths. Not even close, no matter how many slaves they have on their cruise ship armada, or how many people's lives they try to destroy for ratting on them or leaving the church.

/ALL religion sucks

Yes, yes it is. And this story is the perfect example of how the they are different.

You can rag on organized religion for a million different reasons, however an honest person must also admit that there are times when organized religion actually succeeds in meeting its mission.

One of these ways is through the famous series of 12-step programs, which ask addicts to give up their life to a higher power. These programs do not work for everybody, however they clearly do work for many people.  There are 3 major differences between 12-step programs like AA and Narcanon:

1. Documented success rates
2. Licensed and trained staff
3. Free of charge

The ...


I seem to remember that one of the huge criticisms levied towards Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous was that they don't demonstrate any efficacy or long-term recovery benefits over regular addiction treatment programs, and they are commonly used to promote a religious message and convert others to a different religion - usually whatever denomination of church that is sponsoring the group.

In fact, in three separate federal appellate court rulings, the US legal system has upheld that sentencing someone to mandatory NA and AA meetings violates the Establishment clause of the First Amendment.

While yes, Scientology and NarcOnon are bullshiat through and through, let's not pretend that NA and AA are innocent in the BS game either, especially when neither of them have been proven more effective than traditional treatment regimes which don't require someone to prostrate before a divine being and declare their powerlessness.
2013-04-05 02:29:30 AM
3 votes:

holybull99: religion = scam

always has been, always will be


The Protestant Reformation was started precisely because many Christians thought the Catholic Church was a scam.  Likewise, there are splinter religions that practice Dianetics outside the oversight of the Church, which they condemn as corrupt and heretical.  Methinks that Hubbard's teaching will last a long time.
2013-04-05 01:59:09 AM
3 votes:

MFAWG: And this makes them different from other faith based recovery programs how, exactly?


For sheer ugly commercialism and blatant lying in the name of sucking the last dime out of dying addicts, Narconon was hard to beat back in the day. They'd have been less evil if they'd just stabbed people and stolen their money outright. There wasn't even a pretense of caring about their marks or trying to treat their illness. More like "Got money? Come on in, and we'll keep you alive long enough to make sure you die completely broke--still addicted and hopeless, but without even the lint in your pockets."
2013-04-05 12:26:51 AM
3 votes:
I guess it is a real religion, after all.
2013-04-05 12:19:41 AM
3 votes:
Scientology is nothing more than being obvious about the true purpose of a church... which is to bilk people out of money
2013-04-05 12:16:12 AM
3 votes:
scientology IS a drug

really though, i just don't know. If I could convince a bunch of brainless hollywood twerps with no self-esteem (actors don't seem to know WHO they are) to give me butt-tons of cash, and that's an awful lot, with all the sex and drugs I could ever want......

well.....shiat.

I just don't think I could pull it off with a straight face.

so here's to you, bad nebraska science fiction writer...
2013-04-05 10:58:51 AM
2 votes:

Lusiphur: The success rate for most 12-step programs is pathetic. Something join the order of 25%. Trust me, I've had personal reasons to look into them very thoroughly. One of the main reasons for the low success rate is the divorcing of achievement/failure from personal agency.

12 step programs, when taken away from conventional therapy and counseling are probably less successful than narcanon, and are incredibly dangerous for recovering addicts. Again, trust me. I have some pretty solid firsthand experience, and a mountain of research.

So what were you saying?



The success rate is probably significantly lower than 25%. I claim from my own, personal, anecdotal evidence that at least 10 people disappear within a month or two for every person that sticks around.

I'll also say that your "mountain of research" is useless. I say this because you're not getting information from the people in the program who I've seen be successful, because they have no interest in trying to prove something to a skeptic, nor to help further the research endeavors of non-addicts.  The people who contribute to that research are people who failed to stop using through a 12-step program, and medical/therapy groups that have a financial incentive to "prove" that 12-step programs fail.

You know what else is incredibly dangerous to addicts? Active addiction. There are tons and tons of people who come into the program determined to prove that it doesn't work. You know what happens to those people? They prove their preconceived notion to be correct 100% of the time. 12-step programs don't claim to fix people. They provide a set of tools that people who want to get better can apply to their own lives...if they are willing.

So what were YOU saying?
2013-04-05 10:24:28 AM
2 votes:

OgreMagi: Mad_Radhu: Before I read Going Clear, I wrote Scientology off as a scam, but now I'm convinced it is an insane cult. David Miscivage is deeply unhinged. He turns on people for the smallest of things and is physically violent (hitting and choking people out of the blue) and a huge fame whore. The whole religion is a reflection of his and L Ron's mental illness. It's a deeply sick organization.

He also uses his position to convince women in Co$ that they should have sex with him to create the next L Ron.  No doubt, these women were made vulnerable to such nonsense by the very program they are in.  No official citation.  This was from my second (ex)wife, who was one of his victims (she's still all kinds of farked up, despite having escaped years before we met).


There is a book by Miscavige's niece, Jenna, I think it is Beyond Belief. It's on Amazon. If you can scare off your own family, then that in itself proves that there is something deeply disturbing about you. "Blown for Good" is also good, as well as "The Church of Fear". The Panorama BBC episode which has the reporter screaming at the PR guy... Tommy Davis, I think?... is just insane. His book (Church of Fear) is a good companion to that episode.

/somehow fell into reading about how insane Scientology is
2013-04-05 10:17:41 AM
2 votes:
I landed up in treatment with a dude who got sucked into Narconon without knowing what it was. They treated his withdrawal from heroin and benzos with vitamins. When he inevitably had a seizure, they attempted treat that with yet more vitamins. They refused to take him to the local emergency room until he threatened a lawsuit.

/csb
2013-04-05 01:50:48 AM
2 votes:
I used to fill the vending machines at the XXXXX Scientology branch.  The vending machines were in the back room.  The staff would come in there and practice 'accidentally' bumping into people as an excuse to start up a conversation with the victim to suck them into coming by for a visit and get their bio feedback or some shiat.  It reminded me of a farking pickpocket school!  I guess it was kind of the same thing.
2013-04-05 12:53:17 AM
2 votes:
religion = scam

always has been, always will be
2013-04-05 12:29:04 AM
2 votes:
I was working for a tier 1 provider back when anon was bombarding everything scientology related. 3/4 years ago? Something like that.

I got a few calls from a high profile customer but it was a company name I wasn't familiar with. They were getting slammed by attacks saturating circuits to all their locations but they wouldn't let us institute even the most basic measure against out of fear that legit users would experience downtime (something that was happening as we spoke)

He kept calling me through this entire thing, gathering info and such... as people in this situation are wont to do. Inevitably, inbetween our convo's, I had an idea to run by him and tried to call him.

I got the weirdest wait music I've ever heard in my life.
The happiest most artificially cheerful people I'd ever heard were belting away these lyrics:
"JUST BE, Is the way to be! JUST BE! Is the way to be!"

wtf?...

I put it on speaker, I needed a witness to this crazy ass music. The only other coworker on that night looks over at me wtih a quizzical face. He walks over, takes a look at my screen, goes back to his desk. "dude, I just googled that company, those are scientology circuits! lol"

Great, I wasn't just on hold waiting to talk to an asshole I couldn't care less about, a man working for an organization that makes me wish I believed in hell,

I was probably actively being brainwashed while doing so!

Now, I know I have an obligation to my company to do right by them and by their paying customers. Unfortunately, I conveniently ended up so busy on *other work* I didn't manage to get back to Mr. Weird-ass Hold Music the rest of the night.

I figured their ddos would just be, and that was (apparently) the way to be.

And while that might not make sense to you or I, I figured they'd understand... be it on some metaphysical, bullshiat, polygraphing tomatoes way.
2013-04-05 12:26:22 AM
2 votes:

scottydoesntknow: Kyndig: Whoever cooked that dried out, overcooked piece of crap in the photo in the article needs shot - it's a crime against perfectly good meat...

And his tie is ugly too!


Yes.  Yes it is

rlv.zcache.com
2013-04-05 12:16:08 AM
2 votes:
And this makes them different from other faith based recovery programs how, exactly?
2013-04-05 12:12:10 AM
2 votes:
Those charlatans claim Hubbard's teachings about drug addiction have nothing to do with his teachings about Scientology.

No, they really claim that.
2013-04-05 11:44:42 PM
1 votes:
What can you say about a "religion" that maintains it's very own concentration camp.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/scientology-defectors-descr ib e-violence-humiliation-in-the-hole/1270047
2013-04-05 09:49:05 AM
1 votes:

MFAWG: And this makes them different from other faith based recovery programs how, exactly?


Most faith based programs are meant for people who already share that (ro a similar) faith, and are cheaper.
Plus they tend to be actually trying to help people, just not always in the right way
2013-04-05 09:38:15 AM
1 votes:

whosits_112: randomjsa: Scientology is nothing more than being obvious about the true purpose of a church... which is to bilk people out of money

F*ck, dude, that's the second time you've said something that I agree with. Maybe there is something wrong with me???

/hold me?
//I'm so scared...


I think he just spoke out of alt.
2013-04-05 08:47:47 AM
1 votes:

BillyRayBob: I used to fill the vending machines at the XXXXX Scientology branch.  The vending machines were in the back room.  The staff would come in there and practice 'accidentally' bumping into people as an excuse to start up a conversation with the victim to suck them into coming by for a visit and get their bio feedback or some shiat.  It reminded me of a farking pickpocket school!  I guess it was kind of the same thing.


At one time, one of their sock-puppet organizations, Bridge Publications, would set up tables at major sci-fi conventions, pushing Hubbard's crap novels.  One year at DragonCon in Atlanta, there was a jazz performance by David Carradine and Chick Corea, both into $cientology.   In the anteroom adjacent to the performance, they had they $ci people "work" the crowd to try to get them into the show.  One guy came up to me and said in the damn weirdest tone of voice something to the effect of "Carradine and jazz legend Chick Corea are performing in that room".   It really was like he was trying to use the "Voice" from Dune- as if he had just come from one of their stupid courses on how to control people's minds.

It didn't work.
2013-04-05 08:22:53 AM
1 votes:
then again
famous for thier infiltration and investigation of the FBI

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/hubbard.html">http://www.paperlessa rchives.com/hubbard.html

wiki  mentions infiltration of IRS

just sayin
2013-04-05 07:27:17 AM
1 votes:
The guy who played Half-Sack on "Sons of Anarchy" was going through Narconon when he snapped and murdered his landlord.

He used to be all of their website as a celebrity success story. He was un-personed before his body was cold.
xcv
2013-04-05 05:53:48 AM
1 votes:

cedarpark: So, the former director of the branch spent 'thousands' buying pieces of paper for him and his staff so that they could look like counsellers? It seems the public weren't the only ones getting shafted.


He was aware that he was buying them from another Scientology-run outfit. Buying your way up until you're penniless is the standard MO for advancing in any Scientology organization.
2013-04-05 04:30:32 AM
1 votes:
radgeek.com
2013-04-05 04:10:38 AM
1 votes:

Mad_Radhu: Before I read Going Clear, I wrote Scientology off as a scam, but now I'm convinced it is an insane cult.


I think it's an intelligence gathering operation disguised as an insane cult.
2013-04-05 03:56:31 AM
1 votes:

Lusiphur: RoboZombie: And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)

Yes, it's a cult. Yes, they do terrible things. But in the last decade, the Catholic church has covered up and saved how many child molesters from having to face justice? Islam has left how many dead in Iraq, and Iran, and Egypt, and the rest of the Middle East and the world? Hard-line Judaism in Israel has left how many Palestinians dead?

Scientology is a terrible crime against humanity, but it is no worse than any of the other major religions. It SEEMS worse, because it's young enough that most members are still in the "hard-line, born-again, recent convert extremist" phase, but as time goes by, it will mellow out like other religions. We're already seeing it, with sects and break-away faiths that are far less extreme in their doctrines forming all around the country. As it grows and ages, it will lose the ability to keep such rigid control over its members, and it will cease trying. In the meantime, while it has a high body-count, it's not even comparable to the three big faiths. Not even close, no matter how many slaves they have on their cruise ship armada, or how many people's lives they try to destroy for ratting on them or leaving the church.

/ALL religion sucks


I agree with you for the most part, but you're missing a few details.  Hard line Islam considers people who convert out of being Muslim apostates who should be killed, and Scientology seems to have drawn some inspiration from that.  Few other "religions" that I'm aware of have such a strong pattern of harassing former members with physical and litigious intimidation.  I find it interesting how they appear to be in abject terror of the effects of a former member shedding light on the inner workings of their organization.  I suppose it's also possible that they've just been brainwashed to the point that they believe they're doing "God's work" in attacking people they think will do harm to their faith as a whole.  On the other hand, I also have a hard time believing these two guys' new found altruism, considering one of them has written a book about it.  Unless I can see a contract stating that all profits go to a legit charity, then he's just trying to cash in for himself in a different way.

/both sides are bad, so vote Republican
//not really, just don't trust anybody who claims to know the "truth"
///third slashy rants for freedom
2013-04-05 03:28:10 AM
1 votes:

dave2198: Lusiphur: RoboZombie: And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)

Yes, it's a cult. Yes, they do terrible things. But in the last decade, the Catholic church has covered up and saved how many child molesters from having to face justice? Islam has left how many dead in Iraq, and Iran, and Egypt, and the rest of the Middle East and the world? Hard-line Judaism in Israel has left how many Palestinians dead?

Scientology is a terrible crime against humanity, but it is no worse than any of the other major religions. It SEEMS worse, because it's young enough that most members are still in the "hard-line, born-again, recent convert extremist" phase, but as time goes by, it will mellow out like other religions. We're already seeing it, with sects and break-away faiths that are far less extreme in their doctrines forming all around the country. As it grows and ages, it will lose the ability to keep such rigid control over its members, and it will cease trying. In the meantime, while it has a high body-count, it's not even comparable to the three big faiths. Not even close, no matter how many slaves they have on their cruise ship armada, or how many people's lives they try to destroy for ratting on them or leaving the church.

/ALL religion sucks

Yes, yes it is. And this story is the perfect example of how the they are different.

You can rag on organized religion for a million different reasons, however an honest person must also admit that there are times when organized religion actually succeeds in meeting its mission.

One of these ways is through the famous series of 12-step programs, which ask addicts to give up their life to a higher power. These programs do not work for everybody, however they clearly do work for many people.  There are 3 major differences between 12-step programs like AA and Narcanon:

1. Documented success rates
2. Licensed and trained staff
3. Free of charge

The ...


NarcOnon. The cult spells their imaginary drug treatment front NarcOnon with an O in order to confuse people.
2013-04-05 03:24:11 AM
1 votes:

Mad_Radhu: Before I read Going Clear, I wrote Scientology off as a scam, but now I'm convinced it is an insane cult. David Miscivage is deeply unhinged. He turns on people for the smallest of things and is physically violent (hitting and choking people out of the blue) and a huge fame whore. The whole religion is a reflection of his and L Ron's mental illness. It's a deeply sick organization.


He also uses his position to convince women in Co$ that they should have sex with him to create the next L Ron.  No doubt, these women were made vulnerable to such nonsense by the very program they are in.  No official citation.  This was from my second (ex)wife, who was one of his victims (she's still all kinds of farked up, despite having escaped years before we met).
2013-04-05 01:25:01 AM
1 votes:
1) Scare the shiat out of people.
2) Tell them you can protect them... for a price.
3) Profit.

/ah, religion
2013-04-05 01:19:28 AM
1 votes:

wildcardjack: cc_rider: The hell you say...


[i28.photobucket.com image 640x360]

Rebuttal.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x290]

[collider.com image 470x379]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x196]

Asimov and Philip K Dick would have been wealthier if they were alive today and licensing their works for movies instead of their estates.


I agree on Asimov and PKD, but to be fair, L. Ron lacked the basic humanity to be successful in the sci-fi business. Therefore, he had no qualms about bilking lost souls out of their life savings and separating them from their friends and families.
2013-04-05 01:19:20 AM
1 votes:

holybull99: religion = scam

always has been, always will be


That's why a good atheist like Hubbard found the scam so easy to do.
True faith, however, is something else entirely.
2013-04-05 12:59:39 AM
1 votes:
Oh, and I'm in before someone says that Scientology is no worse than any other major religio-GODDAMMIT Lusipher.
2013-04-05 12:58:45 AM
1 votes:

cc_rider: The hell you say...


[i28.photobucket.com image 640x360]


Rebuttal.
upload.wikimedia.org

collider.com

upload.wikimedia.org

Asimov and Philip K Dick would have been wealthier if they were alive today and licensing their works for movies instead of their estates.
2013-04-05 12:53:42 AM
1 votes:

Dr.Zom: Considering Hubbard was a con man and drug addict this makes perfect sense.


I'm starting to think he also had BPD.
2013-04-05 12:52:42 AM
1 votes:

RoboZombie: And yes, it  is worse than other religions so don't even start.(not that I'm a fan of any religion....just calling a cot a cult)


Yes, it's a cult. Yes, they do terrible things. But in the last decade, the Catholic church has covered up and saved how many child molesters from having to face justice? Islam has left how many dead in Iraq, and Iran, and Egypt, and the rest of the Middle East and the world? Hard-line Judaism in Israel has left how many Palestinians dead?

Scientology is a terrible crime against humanity, but it is no worse than any of the other major religions. It SEEMS worse, because it's young enough that most members are still in the "hard-line, born-again, recent convert extremist" phase, but as time goes by, it will mellow out like other religions. We're already seeing it, with sects and break-away faiths that are far less extreme in their doctrines forming all around the country. As it grows and ages, it will lose the ability to keep such rigid control over its members, and it will cease trying. In the meantime, while it has a high body-count, it's not even comparable to the three big faiths. Not even close, no matter how many slaves they have on their cruise ship armada, or how many people's lives they try to destroy for ratting on them or leaving the church.

/ALL religion sucks
2013-04-05 12:46:23 AM
1 votes:
[claude-raines.jpg]
2013-04-05 12:44:06 AM
1 votes:
Yup. Family is almost personally affected by this.
Turns out scientologists don't make good pain specialists.
2013-04-05 12:20:53 AM
1 votes:
static.igossip.com
2013-04-05 12:15:24 AM
1 votes:
Whoever cooked that dried out, overcooked piece of crap in the photo in the article needs shot - it's a crime against perfectly good meat...
 
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