Car_Ramrod: That's like debating which Kardashian is the best.

Garak, obviously.

uknesvuinng: Car_Ramrod: That's like debating which Kardashian is the best.

Garak, obviously.

Mmmaybe, but he had an entire series to show off. Ditto to Gul Dukat.

/Gul Madred!

Because it allows for lazy writing and at the end if you don't know what to do just say it was angels?

I thought that way too. At least until Voyager came along.

Old enough to know better: I thought that way too. At least until Voyager came along.

Final episode, even with borg and time travel thrown in, couldn't make a decent episode.

Old enough to know better: I thought that way too. At least until Voyager came along.

that's what happens when you let a woman drive.

Spanky_McFarksalot: Because it allows for lazy writing and at the end if you don't know what to do just say it was angels?

I see my work is done here.

/Still one of the best sci-fi shows of all time...but damn. That ending.

GAT_00: The problem really is that the best ST episodes are not really Trek, in the exploration sense.  Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, Chain of Command, In the Pale Moonlight, Duet...

It's the same reason why Wrath of Khan is the best of the movies.

GAT_00: Interesting that he cites Lower Decks as proof.

The problem really is that the best ST episodes are not really Trek, in the exploration sense.  Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, Chain of Command, In the Pale Moonlight, Duet...

None of those are really pure Trek.  They're fantastic story writing and acting, but aren't really pure.

Bullshiat. TOS wasn't just out there exploring the stars, it was exploring the human condition and political and social commentary through various alien encounters. You can't tell me there isn't plenty of exploration of the human condition or political or social commentary in those episodes you just listed.

palan: GAT_00: The problem really is that the best ST episodes are not really Trek, in the exploration sense.  Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, Chain of Command, In the Pale Moonlight, Duet...

It's the same reason why Wrath of Khan is the best of the movies.

I preferred The Undiscovered Country, myself.

The main problem is that for a Trek movie (or any movie adapted from a TV series) to be worthwhile, it has to transcend what could be done on the small screen.  Out of the 4 Next Gen movies, only First Contact had any sense of epic scale.  None of the others felt as good as Best of Both Worlds or any of the Dominion war stuff from DS9.  The first JJ Trek succeeded because it made a point of not being constrained by the canon of the series which allowed it to do big dangerous things that you couldn't do in a series.

YodaBlues: Spanky_McFarksalot: Because it allows for lazy writing and at the end if you don't know what to do just say it was angels?

I see my work is done here.

/Still one of the best sci-fi shows of all time...but damn. That ending.

Not just the finale, but most of season 4. The writers even admitted they were making up the answers to questions as they went along. It really showed, especially with the result of the opera house vision.

I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

GAT_00: Yeah. ST:I is the most pure Trek movie, though III is pretty close in some ways. But yeah, that's exactly the point. Star Trek is at it's best when it steps away from Roddenberry's pure vision and gets dirty.

I have never (1) seen someone refer to Insurrection as "ST:I" as if people will know what they're talking about or (2) say anything good about it, but thank you so much. You are exactly right. It was basically a 2 hour TNG episode and a pretty good one at that.

If by "dirty" you mean "gritty" like the whole secret Starfleet CIA thing in DS9, then I kinda disagree. Leave the gritty stuff for other series or at least partition it off its own part of the Trek universe.

NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

FirstNationalBastard: No Lens Flare

I heard he observed that the lens flare in Trek movies doubles every 18 months... a "Moore's Law" if you will.

The TNG movies seemed like they were trying to be a parody of the show.

Stile4aly:

I preferred The Undiscovered Country, myself.


And you'd be right. Khan was great. Undiscovered Country was Greater.

AliceBToklasLives: jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

AliceBToklasLives: jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

Lexx

Stile4aly: AliceBToklasLives: jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

It's a debatable statement, but yes, "Sleeping in the Light" was a complete bookend to the series.

I'd also say Space: Above and Beyond, because even though it was cancelled "Tell Our Moms We Did Our Best" was a great cliffhanger should they ever decide to revisit the material.

Fano: MrEricSir: The TNG movies seemed like they were trying to be a parody of the show.

this. why did we get action star picard?


Because the writers had to be at the ship's gym in 26 minutes.

UNC_Samurai: Stile4aly: AliceBToklasLives: jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

It's a debatable statement, but yes, "Sleeping in the Light" was a complete bookend to the series.

I'd also say Space: Above and Beyond, because even though it was cancelled "Tell Our Moms We Did Our Best" was a great cliffhanger should they ever decide to revisit the material.

I'd say SG-1 and SG:Atlantis ended well. The Eureka finale was ok, and the end scene was exactly what it should have been. And while the show itself was interrupted horribly, Peacekeeper Wars was a decent enough ending to Farscape.

GAT_00: Inner Light

Though I understand your point, I would disagree with this. True, it doesn't exactly have a happy ending, but it very much follows the "so we were out exploring and found something weird that caused some problems" setup. Inner Light can be called sad, tragic, bittersweet, etc; but it's really not a "dark" episode like the others you mentioned. And correct me if I'm wrong about your opinion, but when I see most people say that a trek episode "steps away from Roddenberry's vision" they generally mean episodes that explore humanity's darker side.

Personally, I think inner light holds to roddenberry's vision just fine, the only real difference is that plot can't be resolved by the semi-utopian federation. The episode's definitely one of the best, no doubt, I just wouldn't group it in with the others in terms of it not being pure trek. (Also, no snark intended in any of this post.)

Were the Obvious and HERO tags unavailable, Smits?

Of course Trek TV is better than the Trek movies.  With the movies you get the actors that only a movie budget can afford, plus better special effects.  The writing, on the other hand, is safer because they want butts in the seats.  They won't take risks in the writings.  When you have to produce 26 episodes for a year, you find yourself writing more risky stuff to produce those needed episodes.  Stories like 'The Inner Light', 'The Lower Decks', 'The Measure of a Man' would not have been produced in a purely Trek movie format.

Plus, given the nature of the show, Trek is best in tv format.  Star Trek isn't about action and adventure.  That's why episodes like 'The Inner Light' are so popular.  In TNG, the Enterprise's weapons weren't used offensively until the episode "Arsenal of Freedom", which was near the end of the first season.  The Wrath of Khan is awesome, but less like Star Trek because it's unlike what Trek actually is.

Dingleberry Dickwad: UNC_Samurai: Stile4aly: AliceBToklasLives: jonny_q: NeoCortex42: I still love the show, but it's one of those shows where it's best not to think about it too much.

No matter how bad any other SciFi show gets, you'll always be able to say "Well, at least the payoff was better than Lost"

Indeed.  Then again, how many sci-fi shows (or just shows) are able to come up with truly satisfying endings?  DS9?  Nope.  Voyager?  Nope.   BGS rebooted?  Nope.  The X-Files?  Ha!

TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

It's a debatable statement, but yes, "Sleeping in the Light" was a complete bookend to the series.

I'd also say Space: Above and Beyond, because even though it was cancelled "Tell Our Moms We Did Our Best" was a great cliffhanger should they ever decide to revisit the material.

I'd say SG-1 and SG:Atlantis ended well. The Eureka finale was ok, and the end scene was exactly what it should have been. And while the show itself was interrupted horribly, Peacekeeper Wars was a decent enough ending to Farscape.

Atlantis' finale was kind of abrupt, I thought. More like a standard season finale. But then they up and trumped that with the finale of SGU.
Isn't about time to get the crew out of the stasis chambers?

Anyway, I'd say Moore is right on this one. As much as I've enjoyed the movies, the franchise is better on tv. Yeah, you get some bummer episodes here and there, and Voyager and/or Enterprise weren't everyone's cup of tea, but i'd rather a weekly series than waiting three or four years between Abrams' movies.

By the way, I saw/read the final moments of the Eureka ending predicted all over the place, dead on. Maybe I need to watch the pilot again but did they show something before? I mean, there were so many compleatly accurate predictions of that last sequence, it was like people off the show were posting them.

Flt209er: And correct me if I'm wrong about your opinion, but when I see most people say that a trek episode "steps away from Roddenberry's vision" they generally mean episodes that explore humanity's darker side.

I don't necessarily agree with this idea of his "vision".  There were numerous episodes in TOS that explored the darker side of humanity, and showed people succumbing to their darker side.  Think about Gary Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Lenore Karidian in "The Conscience of the King", Dr. Adams in "Dagger of the Mind", and The Entire Episode of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield".

(I know that list is 1st season heavy, but I've started watching them again on Netflix)

Great Janitor: The Wrath of Khan is awesome, but less like Star Trek because it's unlike what Trek actually is.

Wrath of Khan works because it's Moby Dick with a climactic action sequence from Das Boot.

Your_Huckleberry: By the way, I saw/read the final moments of the Eureka ending predicted all over the place, dead on. Maybe I need to watch the pilot again but did they show something before? I mean, there were so many compleatly accurate predictions of that last sequence, it was like people off the show were posting them.

If you'll recall in the pilot, Sheriff Carter and Zoe drove by what Zoe swore was themselves driving out of town. Mind you at that time it still looked like young Zoe, but they still passed by themselves leaving the town.

Dingleberry Dickwad: Your_Huckleberry: By the way, I saw/read the final moments of the Eureka ending predicted all over the place, dead on. Maybe I need to watch the pilot again but did they show something before? I mean, there were so many compleatly accurate predictions of that last sequence, it was like people off the show were posting them.

If you'll recall in the pilot, Sheriff Carter and Zoe drove by what Zoe swore was themselves driving out of town. Mind you at that time it still looked like young Zoe, but they still passed by themselves leaving the town.

With all the hits and misses of the last couple of seasons (stupid timeline reset, way too much time spent on Felicia Day's story), I knew I could be happy with the finale as long as they finally paid off on the setup from the pilot.

UNC_Samurai: Flt209er: And correct me if I'm wrong about your opinion, but when I see most people say that a trek episode "steps away from Roddenberry's vision" they generally mean episodes that explore humanity's darker side.

I don't necessarily agree with this idea of his "vision".  There were numerous episodes in TOS that explored the darker side of humanity, and showed people succumbing to their darker side.  Think about Gary Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Lenore Karidian in "The Conscience of the King", Dr. Adams in "Dagger of the Mind", and The Entire Episode of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield".

(I know that list is 1st season heavy, but I've started watching them again on Netflix)

Oh, I don't necessarily agree with it either, but I do understand the complaint people have that the federation is usually portrayed as "too perfect", for lack of a better phrase. Perhaps I should have said "the federation's darker side" or similar. Individuals characters, especially single episode characters, can be as good or as evil as the plot requires. The reason that In the Pale Moonlight is such a well remembered episode is because it's ultimately lies and deception that win the day.

I personally see Roddenberry's vision as a generalized version of Picard's rant to Wesley ("the first duty of every starfleet officer is to the truth!" ). Sisko's actions in InPM are pretty much the antithesis of that, and I fully agree with claiming that they went against Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek. I just can't find myself making a similar claim for Inner Light.

Quigs: Stile4aly:

I preferred The Undiscovered Country, myself.


And you'd be right. Khan was great. Undiscovered Country was Greater.

This. Not sure if I would put it above Khan, but Undiscovered Country is one of my favorite Trek movies. An excellent send off to the original crew.

/It eve had Red Foreman as the Federation President

Mad_Radhu: Quigs: Stile4aly:

I preferred The Undiscovered Country, myself.


And you'd be right. Khan was great. Undiscovered Country was Greater.

This. Not sure if I would put it above Khan, but Undiscovered Country is one of my favorite Trek movies. An excellent send off to the original crew.

/It eve had Red Foreman as the Federation President

Also Sisko's father and Odo as Starfleet officers.

Dingleberry Dickwad: Your_Huckleberry: By the way, I saw/read the final moments of the Eureka ending predicted all over the place, dead on. Maybe I need to watch the pilot again but did they show something before? I mean, there were so many compleatly accurate predictions of that last sequence, it was like people off the show were posting them.

If you'll recall in the pilot, Sheriff Carter and Zoe drove by what Zoe swore was themselves driving out of town. Mind you at that time it still looked like young Zoe, but they still passed by themselves leaving the town.

Ah-ha. Like I said, need to watch the pilot again. Figured it had to be something like that to generate such hyper accurate predictions.

Mugato: AliceBToklasLives: TNG ended well.  What else?

The DS9 ending was great.

The movies were mostly some psycho pissed off villain out for revenge for something or other. The trailers for the new movie don't dispute this.

Not only doesn't dispute, the trailers indicate re-enforcement. Two lines from Kirk jump out at me: one is where he says he doesn't know what to do.( seriously? I mentioned this in another thread, but for the life of me....i cannot picture Shatner uttering that line)
And two, Adm. Frank Murphy tells Kirk that Starfleet doesn't exist for his revenge, which Kirk replies that maybe it should.
So Roddenberry's vision went from a " Peacekeeping Armada" to an instrument for Revenge in two movies? Didn't Roddenberry hate the military conspiracy elements of The Undiscovered Country? Whether I agree with him or not, I doubt he'd appreciate that revenge driven peacekeeping armada deal.

I've read multiple posts/opinions/what have you that an episode like Balance Of Terror should be made into a movie. "Come on! Das Boot in space!"
Never happen. Fantastic episode, they'd never risk a hundred mill budget on a Bottle...Movie.

Your_Huckleberry: I've read multiple posts/opinions/what have you that an episode like Balance Of Terror should be made into a movie. "Come on! Das Boot in space!"
Never happen. Fantastic episode, they'd never risk a hundred mill budget on a Bottle...Movie

It would be an interesting experiment. A bottle movie could likely be done relatively cheap. Getting back to basics on a Star Trek movie could easily make back what it costs and then some. It would also go a long way towards helping the franchise.

Mugato: AliceBToklasLives: TNG ended well.  What else?

The DS9 ending was great.

Oh sure the final season was terrific.  I'm just referring to the way matters were resolved in the final episode.

Stile4aly: TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

Yeah, that's been on my "to see" list for some years now - I realize this is like a film buff saying "I haven't seen Casablanca."

AliceBToklasLives: Mugato: AliceBToklasLives: TNG ended well.  What else?

The DS9 ending was great.

Oh sure the final season was terrific.  I'm just referring to the way matters were resolved in the final episode.

Stile4aly: TNG ended well.  What else?

Babylon 5.

Yeah, that's been on my "to see" list for some years now - I realize this is like a film buff saying "I haven't seen Casablanca."

I'm sure you've already heard it, but the pilot movie is really bad and aside from a few episodes, the first season isn't much better. Season 2 picks up in quality quickly, though.

uknesvuinng: Car_Ramrod: That's like debating which Kardashian is the best.

Garak, obviously.

I don't think I ever had a strong emotional response to him, but his sarcasm always made me smirk.

zarberg: uknesvuinng: Car_Ramrod: That's like debating which Kardashian is the best.

Garak, obviously.

I don't think I ever had a strong emotional response to him, but his sarcasm always made me smirk.

Garak's character, specifically his past, was supposed to be a bit of a mystery to the viewers. It was slowly uncovered over time; though is character didn't really come to life until the end of the show.

THE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!