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(The Sun)   Some spineless brute with a knife stabs his childhood pal leaving him paralyzed. Saudi Arabian court decides to go the "eye for an eye" route   (thesun.co.uk) divider line 200
    More: Sick, Saudi Arabia, human rights group, Amnesty International  
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16747 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2013 at 8:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-03 10:17:26 PM

dark brew: What? How would it be different if the guy was 25 when the crime occurred? It still wouldn't benefit the victim or society.


the issue is responsibility.   there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 25 year old.  Not as much as westerners might insist, but there is a difference.  I don't think anyone would be suggesting this is the perpetrator had been 7, even with Sharia Law.
 
2013-04-03 10:18:12 PM
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

"You know the old saying, an eye for a tooth, a nose for a chin, a butt for a... well, it's an old saying. It's not a good saying."
 
2013-04-03 10:21:32 PM
I suspect the judge in this case made an estimate of what the boys extended family could scrape together as a blood price.  That is normally how this is done.

I'm guessing the mother's plea to strangers for money is because the extended family would prefer the boy pay in-kind rather than chip in their own funds.
 
2013-04-03 10:27:18 PM

dbaggins: dark brew: What? How would it be different if the guy was 25 when the crime occurred? It still wouldn't benefit the victim or society.

the issue is responsibility.   there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 25 year old.  Not as much as westerners might insist, but there is a difference.  I don't think anyone would be suggesting this is the perpetrator had been 7, even with Sharia Law.


My point was that it is never going to benefit society or the victim to enact this type of punishment, so age doesn't play a factor.
 
2013-04-03 10:32:04 PM

Lionel Mandrake: That's just a longer way of saying "yes."

I guess it's a great system if you're rich.


No, it's a system that used to make sense in small, insular communities where everyone knew each other, and justice wasn't necessarily served by taking another person out of the tribe or village; and where continual blood-feuds could rip apart societies that needed cohesiveness to survive against outside attacks. Today, it's an anachronism and leads to results like this--where the extended family is no more able or willing to pay a blood-price than the immediate family; and where involuntary servitude isn't really enforceable as a punishment like it would have been, say, 1500 years ago in a small village where the attacker could have been shamed or monitored into his punishment. And where keeping an able-bodied male alive and active would have been more necessary for defense of the village against bandit attacks than executing him for some abstract notion of "justice."

Then is not now. But not everyone's mindset has advanced past the medieval village, not even here in modern, 21st century America.
 
2013-04-03 10:34:10 PM

fusillade762: Capo Del Bandito: Recidivism cut. Problem cut. Someone vile is removed from the picture.

The problem is...?

You're OK with rich people being able to buy their way out of punishment?


If the buyout goes to the victim, that takes a lot of the sting out of it.
 
2013-04-03 10:36:08 PM
It's gonna be funny when guy # 2 dies from being stabbed in the back and his parents sue and they have to kill the first guy as well.
 
2013-04-03 10:37:49 PM

Thisbymaster: A part of me sees this as real justice, something fitting the crime not just a slap on the wrist.  But I wonder how they are going to do it without killing the guy?  And what doctor would perform the operation?  Do not harm doesn't count in Saudi Arabian?


This isn't justice, it's vengeance. It's allowing some sick people to get their jollies by legally torturing someone.  Anyone who thinks this is in anyway a just punishment has no humanity.
 
2013-04-03 10:38:43 PM

Kanemano: SubBass49: Meh...he's had plenty of time to come up with the money for restitution.  He did what he did, and now it's time to pay the piper.  While it's harsh, so is the life his victim will be forced to live out.  Only difference is that his victim got to spend an extra 10 years suffering, whereas douchie-boy got to walk around on two feet.

While he was in prison, or when he got older than 14?


Heavenly father, forgive me my transgressions, and the skimming of TFA...
Thy will be done.
 
2013-04-03 10:41:12 PM

Lionel Mandrake: That's just a longer way of saying "yes."

I guess it's a great system if you're rich.


when implemented properly, the rich are not rich afterwards.  Rich buys you one free horrific crime, then you get to live in a cinderblock apartment complex in a 110 degrees for your life, with your family.  better than having your hand cut off of being castrated or blinded with acid.  Your kids probably are going to have to behave better than you did.
 
2013-04-03 10:43:58 PM

jtown: fusillade762: Capo Del Bandito: Recidivism cut. Problem cut. Someone vile is removed from the picture.

The problem is...?

You're OK with rich people being able to buy their way out of punishment?

If the buyout goes to the victim, that takes a lot of the sting out of it.


Kid has the option to kill himself. Should give him the operation, then some privacy with a couple of cyanide pills.
 
2013-04-03 10:44:05 PM

Lionel Mandrake: pla: BarkingUnicorn : What makes you think Saudi society is going to assume the burden of this guy?

So they want to sentence him to torture and then slow starvation? Yeah, brilliant plan there. That'll teach his 14 year old self not to stab friends in the back!  And if nothing else, it will at least send a message to other 14 year olds, what with their near-legendary ability to consider the consequences of their actions...

Don't you know that harsh punishment acts as a deterrent?


Which is why this crime didn't happen in Saudi Arabia, a place notorious for harsh punishments.

What is the victim's societal rank?  It seems like the weregild is a bit high.
 
2013-04-03 10:44:36 PM
We do it here.

Its called the death penalty.
 
2013-04-03 10:45:11 PM

SevenizGud: FTFA:

She said: "Ten years have passed with hundreds of sleepless nights. My hair has become grey at a young age because of my son's problem.

"I have been frightened to death whenever I think about my son's fate and that he will have to be paralysed."

Wouldn't be a problem if you would have killed him yourself 10 years ago, like you should have done.

In other news, if it is torture to do this to this criminal, then what would has actions towards the other guy be categorized as?

The Saudis are possibly the stupidest people on the planet - but when they are right, they are very right.


Agreed.
 
2013-04-03 10:47:20 PM
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

(Granted, the teachings of Jesus are not particularly popular among his followers.)
 
2013-04-03 10:49:07 PM

BradleyUffner: Thisbymaster: A part of me sees this as real justice, something fitting the crime not just a slap on the wrist.  But I wonder how they are going to do it without killing the guy?  And what doctor would perform the operation?  Do not harm doesn't count in Saudi Arabian?

This isn't justice, it's vengeance. It's allowing some sick people to get their jollies by legally torturing someone.  Anyone who thinks this is in anyway a just punishment has no humanity.


This. There's a reason our system was designed to be as impartial as possible and remove the aspect of "revenge" from the mob.

Ironically, the people celebrating this in the thread are among the first ones to speak up in any thread they feel their "constitutional rights" are being imposed upon, namely the Second Amendment and the First Amendment protections of religion. (Or what they imagine them to be).

Clearly, in those case, our constitution was brilliantly designed. In this case, they can wipe their ass with it.
 
2013-04-03 10:54:04 PM

jtown: fusillade762: Capo Del Bandito: Recidivism cut. Problem cut. Someone vile is removed from the picture.

The problem is...?

You're OK with rich people being able to buy their way out of punishment?

If the buyout goes to the victim, that takes a lot of the sting out of it.


Not sure about that.  Money only helps after the fact, when the choice is out of your hands.  It doesn't help with securing society, it's just your personal gain from tragedy.

Say your baby brother is kidnapped, scooped up in some jerk's idea of "The Most Dangerous Game: Kids Edition", and killed.  The guy offers you $1million for his fun, and goes to do the same thing to other families until he gets bored.  Would you rather have the money, or your family member?  Would society benefit by stopping the guy?
 
2013-04-03 10:54:13 PM

Lionel Mandrake: enik: Eye for an eye punishment is literally the only thing that Arabs can teach Americans.

Why do you think it's a good idea?

 Don't do the crime, if you can't suffer the crime.

 
2013-04-03 10:56:07 PM

zepillin: Lionel Mandrake: enik: Eye for an eye punishment is literally the only thing that Arabs can teach Americans.

Why do you think it's a good idea?
 Don't do the crime, if you can't suffer the crime.


This is a good idea because it culls the predators. The victim should be able to request it during sentencing, AFTER a trial has been completed.
 
2013-04-03 10:57:34 PM

zepillin: Lionel Mandrake: enik: Eye for an eye punishment is literally the only thing that Arabs can teach Americans.

Why do you think it's a good idea?
 Don't do the crime, if you can't suffer the crime.


Except for the fact that this system further victimizes society by creating a dependant that society must now pick up the tab for, and is almost always disproportionately applied among racial, ethnic, and financial backgrounds. The Saudis are NOTORIOUS for giving natural born Saudis a slap on the wrist for utterly heinous crimes, while committing brutal and inhumanely cruel punishments on those who are poor, or foreign workers who would otherwise be deported anyway.

You're not talking about punishment. You're talking about blood revenge.
 
2013-04-03 10:58:24 PM

BradleyUffner: Thisbymaster: A part of me sees this as real justice, something fitting the crime not just a slap on the wrist.  But I wonder how they are going to do it without killing the guy?  And what doctor would perform the operation?  Do not harm doesn't count in Saudi Arabian?

This isn't justice, it's vengeance.


You say that like it's a bad thing. Is society not allowed retribution against those who have wronged the collective?  Are we not allowed to closure for heinous crimes? Are we not allowed to inflict punishment as a society as a deterrent to future criminals?

Being squeamish about applying the golden rule to bad people is cowardice.
 
2013-04-03 11:01:28 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: We do it here.

Its called the death penalty.


When was the last time we executed a 14-year-old?
 
2013-04-03 11:03:08 PM

hardinparamedic: Except for the fact that this system further victimizes society by creating a dependant that society must now pick up the tab for,


Exempt them from receiving disability benefits, Medicare, welfare, etc., just as criminals are proscribed guns and voting.  No tab for our taxes to pick up.  There are certainly segments in our society that would get behind that.
 
2013-04-03 11:03:21 PM

Duck_of_Doom: jtown: fusillade762: Capo Del Bandito: Recidivism cut. Problem cut. Someone vile is removed from the picture.

The problem is...?

You're OK with rich people being able to buy their way out of punishment?

If the buyout goes to the victim, that takes a lot of the sting out of it.

Not sure about that.  Money only helps after the fact, when the choice is out of your hands.  It doesn't help with securing society, it's just your personal gain from tragedy.

Say your baby brother is kidnapped, scooped up in some jerk's idea of "The Most Dangerous Game: Kids Edition", and killed.  The guy offers you $1million for his fun, and goes to do the same thing to other families until he gets bored.  Would you rather have the money, or your family member?  Would society benefit by stopping the guy?


"Hey buddy, your wife's pretty hot. I'll give you a million dollars to have sex with her."

"I don't think she'd be cool with that..."

"That's OK, she won't have to be!"
 
GBB
2013-04-03 11:05:55 PM
Saudi Arabian court takes "eye for an eye" passage in Bible literally?
Saudi Arabia: that's a county in Texas, right?
 
2013-04-03 11:06:08 PM

Duck_of_Doom: Exempt them from receiving disability benefits, Medicare, welfare, etc., just as criminals are proscribed guns and voting.  No tab for our taxes to pick up.  There are certainly segments in our society that would get behind that.


Ah, so just create more criminal acts, then? Make a criminal dependant on the system by crippling them, then toss them out on the streets to starve?

You're an idiot if you don't see the obvious problem with this approach in a modern day and age. Of course, considering this is the same stupidity applied to the mentally ill and drug addicted in the United States, and the same mentality of a large group of people, it's no surprise we have one of the most violent societies among first world countries.
 
2013-04-03 11:08:14 PM
super_grass:
You say that like it's a bad thing.

It IS a bad thing.

Is society not allowed retribution against those who have wronged the collective?  Are we not allowed to closure for heinous crimes? Are we not allowed to inflict punishment as a society as a deterrent to future criminals?

Sure, but society can get all those things without torturing someone.
 
2013-04-03 11:09:55 PM

Daedalus27: malaktaus: If you support the death penalty- and, what, 85% of Americans do?- why would you consider this sick?

Because there was no death involved in this case, only horrific injury.  The death penalty is about harm reduction by eliminating the most dangerous individuals from society so that they cannot commit any future harm.  So far the penalty (10 years in jail and 1m in restitution) doesn't seem too far off from what he may get in many countries. The only difference is the paralyzation if he doesn't pay up and that seems excessive and counterproductive as you will be unable to collect the restitution if the criminal cannot meaningfully work anymore (please note, I know paralyzed individuals can be productive members of the workforce, but this is a unskilled person with a criminal record so that the job prospects are minimal beyond manual labor which has been taken away as a job catagory if he is paralyzed)


I find your argument deeply unconvincing and somewhat dishonest. First of all, the death penalty is in no way about harm reduction. That's a clear excuse when we can just as easily, and probably somewhat more cheaply, toss them in a deep, dark hole and throw away the key. The idea that the death penalty is about harm reduction is, frankly, an insult to my intelligence. That leaves vengeance, and that's really it if we're going to be honest about it. This is vengeance in exactly the same sense as the death penalty, and hey, if what you want is vengeance, just come out and say it, the hypocrisy and dishonesty make me sick. But keep in mind that if vengeance is our goal, this sort of "barbaric" behavior is in no way worse than what we do ourselves.
 
2013-04-03 11:10:16 PM

BradleyUffner: Sure, but society can get all those things without torturing someone.


You're arguing with someone who thinks that the holocaust and holodomir was justified and not really a bad thing. I'm pretty sure you're not going to see eye to eye.
 
2013-04-03 11:11:21 PM
Sounds horrible until you think that he did this to another human being.

Seems fair.
 
2013-04-03 11:13:14 PM

GBB: Saudi Arabian court takes "eye for an eye" passage in Bible literally?
Saudi Arabia: that's a county in Texas, right?


It's the Hammurabi Code, and out dates the bible by a few months.
 
2013-04-03 11:15:32 PM

BradleyUffner: This isn't justice, it's vengeance. It's allowing some sick people to get their jollies by legally torturing someone.  Anyone who thinks this is in anyway a just punishment has no humanity.


What exactly do you think justice is? Justice is about desert. If you you good deed X, then you deserve a reward of roughly equal magnitude to X.  If you do evil deed Y, then you deserve a punishment of roughly equal magnitude to Y.  It's social algebra; you balance the equation by doing on one side what was done on the other side.  "Jollies" do not enter into the equation.
 
2013-04-03 11:18:48 PM

Yogimus: GBB: Saudi Arabian court takes "eye for an eye" passage in Bible literally?
Saudi Arabia: that's a county in Texas, right?

It's the Hammurabi Code, and out dates the bible by a few months.


I'll take Appeal to Tradition for 500, Alex.
 
2013-04-03 11:22:00 PM

hardinparamedic: Yogimus: GBB: Saudi Arabian court takes "eye for an eye" passage in Bible literally?
Saudi Arabia: that's a county in Texas, right?

It's the Hammurabi Code, and out dates the bible by a few months.

I'll take Appeal to Tradition for 500, Alex.


Not relevant, that statement was not a proposal of said code, merely the correct identification of.

/   V
 
2013-04-03 11:23:48 PM

pla: BarkingUnicorn : What makes you think Saudi society is going to assume the burden of this guy?

So they want to sentence him to torture and then slow starvation? Yeah, brilliant plan there. That'll teach his 14 year old self not to stab friends in the back!  And if nothing else, it will at least send a message to other 14 year olds, what with their near-legendary ability to consider the consequences of their actions...


No, I think they expect his family to take care of him and they know 14 year-olds are impulsive so they don't waste much consideration on deterrence.

Alas, if only it worked that easy. Sure, I count as part of the problem, but only one six-billionth of it... As do you... As do we all! Nope, sorry, it'll take a comet. Even a massive nuclear war or an incredibly virulent plague wouldn't suffice, enough of us would survive it to re-infect the planet.

Well, if all of humanity deserves to die in terror then why are you excited about this guy?
 
2013-04-03 11:25:07 PM

hardinparamedic: zepillin: Lionel Mandrake: enik: Eye for an eye punishment is literally the only thing that Arabs can teach Americans.

Why do you think it's a good idea?
 Don't do the crime, if you can't suffer the crime.

Except for the fact that this system further victimizes society by creating a dependant that society must now pick up the tab for, and is almost always disproportionately applied among racial, ethnic, and financial backgrounds. The Saudis are NOTORIOUS for giving natural born Saudis a slap on the wrist for utterly heinous crimes, while committing brutal and inhumanely cruel punishments on those who are poor, or foreign workers who would otherwise be deported anyway.

You're not talking about punishment. You're talking about blood revenge.


Funny how those that preach and preach that taxes are bad, because the government can't do anything right, and perfectly willing to give government the ability to enact blood revenge.

I don't think they've thought their cunning plan though.
 
2013-04-03 11:25:28 PM

hardinparamedic: Duck_of_Doom: Exempt them from receiving disability benefits, Medicare, welfare, etc., just as criminals are proscribed guns and voting.  No tab for our taxes to pick up.  There are certainly segments in our society that would get behind that.

Ah, so just create more criminal acts, then? Make a criminal dependant on the system by crippling them, then toss them out on the streets to starve?

You're an idiot if you don't see the obvious problem with this approach in a modern day and age. Of course, considering this is the same stupidity applied to the mentally ill and drug addicted in the United States, and the same mentality of a large group of people, it's no surprise we have one of the most violent societies among first world countries.


That response was more of a "compassionate conservative" response and mental exercise.  I agree with you.  If that were to ever happen, you're throwing people into terrible, unlivable conditions, and the death penalty would seem a mercy.
 
2013-04-03 11:26:00 PM

malaktaus: Daedalus27: malaktaus: If you support the death penalty- and, what, 85% of Americans do?- why would you consider this sick?

Because there was no death involved in this case, only horrific injury.  The death penalty is about harm reduction by eliminating the most dangerous individuals from society so that they cannot commit any future harm.  So far the penalty (10 years in jail and 1m in restitution) doesn't seem too far off from what he may get in many countries. The only difference is the paralyzation if he doesn't pay up and that seems excessive and counterproductive as you will be unable to collect the restitution if the criminal cannot meaningfully work anymore (please note, I know paralyzed individuals can be productive members of the workforce, but this is a unskilled person with a criminal record so that the job prospects are minimal beyond manual labor which has been taken away as a job catagory if he is paralyzed)

I find your argument deeply unconvincing and somewhat dishonest. First of all, the death penalty is in no way about harm reduction. That's a clear excuse when we can just as easily, and probably somewhat more cheaply, toss them in a deep, dark hole and throw away the key. The idea that the death penalty is about harm reduction is, frankly, an insult to my intelligence. That leaves vengeance, and that's really it if we're going to be honest about it. This is vengeance in exactly the same sense as the death penalty, and hey, if what you want is vengeance, just come out and say it, the hypocrisy and dishonesty make me sick. But keep in mind that if vengeance is our goal, this sort of "barbaric" behavior is in no way worse than what we do ourselves.


Some people who have a superficial understanding or arguments use revenge as the purpose.  It may be the motivation for some, but that is simplistic and fails to understand how the death penalty should be used.

The death penalty is absolutely about harm reduction.  As long as the most depraved and damaged individuals who refuse to conform to societies rules are still around, they can continue to do harm.  LWOP (life without the possibility of parole) still allows these individuals to continue to harm society by forcing members of the public to tend to their biological requirements (feed and care) which presents them an opportunity to assualt and kill staff members or potentially escape custody and do harm elsewhere.  Furthermore, cell phones illicitly acquired and other communications methods allow individuals to continue to do harm and run criminal enterprises that damage society and kill the public beyond the walls of prison.

The only way to end the harm that a very small minority cause and protect society is to eliminate them from living.  The death penalty should be reserved for the most dangerous and violent individuals, but it is absolutely necessary.  Multiple murders, murder for hire, and various other special circumstances beyond simple killing and a long criminal profile should qualify as the average criminal simply doesn't need this profoundly severe method. How do you punish someone who is LWOP who does harm when you have already taken away all privileges possible? The only way to handle and control these individuals is to have the tool available to eliminate them.
 
2013-04-03 11:26:29 PM

impaler: Funny how those that preach and preach that taxes are bad, because the government can't do anything right, and are perfectly willing to give government the ability to enact blood revenge.


FTFM
 
2013-04-03 11:29:39 PM

dbaggins: dark brew: What? How would it be different if the guy was 25 when the crime occurred? It still wouldn't benefit the victim or society.

the issue is responsibility.   there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 25 year old.  Not as much as westerners might insist, but there is a difference.  I don't think anyone would be suggesting this is the perpetrator had been 7, even with Sharia Law.


Maybe Saudis expect 14 year-olds to act like adults and raise them to do so.  Lotta 14 year-olds and younger children take on head-of-household responsibilities while parents do meth.  Other cultures expect and prepare for childhood to end before Americans think it should.
 
2013-04-03 11:29:57 PM

impaler: impaler: Funny how those that preach and preach that taxes are bad, because the government can't do anything right, and are perfectly willing to give government the ability to enact blood revenge.

FTFM


I see your point, and am switching sides on this one.
 
2013-04-03 11:35:43 PM
Comparison of Saudi and U. S. Crimes Rates, with rankings among other nations.
 
2013-04-03 11:37:18 PM

Son of Thunder: What exactly do you think justice is? Justice is about desert. If you you good deed X, then you deserve a reward of roughly equal magnitude to X.  If you do evil deed Y, then you deserve a punishment of roughly equal magnitude to Y. It's social algebra; you balance the equation by doing on one side what was done on the other side.  "Jollies" do not enter into the equation.


That is a child's view of karma.  Deed X = Reward X doesn't happen in reality.  Often good deeds go unrecognized, evil deeds go unpunished, and sometimes good deeds are met with overwhelmingly evil deeds.  Justice is about balance, that is true.  But equality is not making both sides of the spreadsheet mirrors of each other.  If one side is in the negative, bringing the other side into the negative doesn't make things even.
 
2013-04-03 11:41:29 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Comparison of Saudi and U. S. Crimes Rates, with rankings among other nations.


The Eighth Amendment of the United States Constitution.
 
2013-04-03 11:41:59 PM

impaler: impaler: Funny how those that preach and preach that taxes are bad, because the government can't do anything right, and are perfectly willing to give government the ability to enact blood revenge.

FTFM


I would say it goes to the protection of society from enemies being the main critical function of government and one of the sole reasons taxes should be collected (as stated by the most extremist members of this viewpoint).  That is why they tend to be strongly pro-defense.  Punishing criminals is an extension of defending the nation from the domestic enemies who are interfering with the members of society.
 
2013-04-03 11:46:22 PM

GreenSun: What most people seem to fear is "What if you were wrongfully convicted?!" and that's why people tend to shy away from approving of "barbaric punishments".


You think that's why the Constitution has the whole "cruel and unusual" think, or are you just throwing out a lame strawman?

What if they had all the evidence against you, including videos, recordings, dna evidence and all that? Would you approve of those punishments or are you fine with some guy who raped and murdered entire families only getting 10 years in jail before he goes free again?

Because those are the only choices.

Straw-man with a side of false dichotomy.   Run along now, the adults are trying to have a conversation.
 
2013-04-03 11:46:43 PM

hardinparamedic: BarkingUnicorn: Comparison of Saudi and U. S. Crimes Rates, with rankings among other nations.

The Eighth Amendment of the United States Constitution.


An ancient sheet of paper with more things carved out of it than a thanksgiving turkey?
 
2013-04-03 11:48:01 PM

BarkingUnicorn: dbaggins: dark brew: What? How would it be different if the guy was 25 when the crime occurred? It still wouldn't benefit the victim or society.

the issue is responsibility.   there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 25 year old.  Not as much as westerners might insist, but there is a difference.  I don't think anyone would be suggesting this is the perpetrator had been 7, even with Sharia Law.

Maybe Saudis expect 14 year-olds to act like adults and raise them to do so.  Lotta 14 year-olds and younger children take on head-of-household responsibilities while parents do meth.  Other cultures expect and prepare for childhood to end before Americans think it should.


This is true historically, as well, and is something I have been studying. Robert Frost, my favorite poet, thought in abstract terms and took on personal responsibility from age sixteen on. One of the U.S. presidents, I believe it was Quincy Adams, had the Bible memorized at age 8 and successfully debated it with elderly delegates at age ten. For the longest while, I've supposed that age and responsibility is a social construct; however, I am currently seeing data that suggests the cerebral cortex is not developed until after the adolescent years. This empirical data seems to conflict with historical data and present-day examples of responsible and abstract-thinking adolescents, which confuses me.
 
2013-04-03 11:50:41 PM

super_grass: An ancient sheet of paper with more things carved out of it than a thanksgiving turkey?


We're talking about the bible, now?
 
2013-04-03 11:52:24 PM

hardinparamedic: super_grass: An ancient sheet of paper with more things carved out of it than a thanksgiving turkey?

We're talking about the bible, now?


Yeah, now we don't have to abstain from pork. That's a good thing.
 
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