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(Slashdot)   Soon to be a major item on Woot's "Random Dollar Bag of Crap" sale: Windows RT devices   (mobile.slashdot.org) divider line 36
    More: Obvious, Windows RT, window, portable computer, trick question, woot, user interface design, touch screens  
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4673 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Apr 2013 at 9:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-03 10:14:00 AM
3 votes:
Pre-launch, Ballmer was socializing $199 and $299, at which it would have sold well.  $500 is an absolutely ridiculous price - not only is it uncompetitive with other ARM-based devices, it's comparable to full intel devices.  It was DOA due to pricing, which appears to have been forced on Ballmer by Microsoft's OEM "partners".

Ballmer's made a lot of mistakes, but it's pretty clear that RT pricing was out of his control.  And with the right price, it could have been competitive with the Kindle Fire.
2013-04-04 12:24:40 PM
1 votes:

Komplex: Is this a surprise?
Microsoft has pretty much f*cked up every consumer product it's ever launched. Zune, Windows Phone, Kin, etc...

And it isn't because of price or Tech issues, it's because of stupid marketing decisions that confuse and frustrate their customers.  (we can also talk about the TV adverts).

This is a company that decided to market home, media, home server, business, small business, enterprise and professional versions of their flagship operating system and application suite. This is a company that has to offer a course on how to understand their business licensing issues.

So now you have Microsoft making a tablet with the Windows RT OS, so that should work pretty well with windows. I mean it's right there in the farking Name. And it doesn't, if you want closer to a windows experience you need to pony up an extra $600, you can get two (if not 3) nice laptops for $1200.


You say price isn't the reason then talk about the price of the tablet. Maybe price is a huge factor.
2013-04-04 09:01:56 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: TNel: It makes more sense if you are not frothing at the mouth

Yea. Right. Frothing at the mouth.

So, do you or do you not have any sensible explanation for why Surface RT and Windows 8 have such abysmal sales and adoption rates? Are you seriously sticking with the utterly retarded argument that the HUGE number of people who dislike it and see no reason to buy it are all just stupid?


We've been telling you forever the price of the RT is why it didn't take off but yet you don't want to listen to that.  Windows 8 is a great OS, it's a lot faster than 7 but it does have it's faults like I said above.  The reason not many are upgrading to 8 is because 7 is a very good OS and people don't like change so they wont play with Metro.  Metro does take some time getting used to just like the ribbon bar in Office.  If you look at Metro like it's your start bar then it makes slightly more sense.
2013-04-04 08:14:05 AM
1 votes:

anfrind: skozlaw: LasersHurt: You said you wanted the Metro UI to go away when you plugged in a mouse and keyboard and let you use it like a normal computer. That's all you have to do to dismiss Metro and go to the desktop. Then you can do the normal desktop stuff. Tap Windows again to show Metro when you're done.

Look, I know you think you're really clever with your ceaseless 'hrr hrr you just don't know how to use the Windows keyboard key' crap, but you're not. And at some point you're just going to have to accept the fact that it's a badly designed system that people find unpleasant and inconvenient to use and that you people who don't mind it are in a tiny little minority.

IT people don't like it, usability experts have panned it, and, most importantly, consumers have completely rejected it on both the tablet and, especially, the PC. It now has a lower adoption rate than Vista did at this point and Vista was a spectacular failure. Barring significant improvements in the form of an SP or something, it doesn't look likely that this will change.

It's just a bad UI. Bad enough that it overwhelms the few improvements 8 has to offer over 7. That's all there is to it. People. Don't. Like. It. It's not about not be willing to learn something new or that you're just so much smarter than everyone else, it's about the fact that the new thing you're supposed to learn isn't any good. Some day you will have to acknowledge that fact.

Microsoft shills are like Libertarians.  No matter how demonstrably wrong they are, they'll insist that you just don't understand.


He's complaining about stuff that is easily explained.  You want the desktop hit one button, you want to bind to AD guess what you can't have the home use device.  My god stop complaining so much.  It makes more sense if you are not frothing at the mouth.  I don't have an RT and like I said up post the only reason being is the price.  Had they came in at $199 or $299 more developers would make apps since more people would buy it,  I would have just to play around with.  I loved my Windows Phone and the Metro gui isn't that bad, now taking away the start bar was a dumb move.  If you want that back (and yes you really do need that back) I recommend Pokki which does a lot of cool things.
2013-04-03 07:43:39 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: LasersHurt: You said you wanted the Metro UI to go away when you plugged in a mouse and keyboard and let you use it like a normal computer. That's all you have to do to dismiss Metro and go to the desktop. Then you can do the normal desktop stuff. Tap Windows again to show Metro when you're done.

Look, I know you think you're really clever with your ceaseless 'hrr hrr you just don't know how to use the Windows keyboard key' crap, but you're not. And at some point you're just going to have to accept the fact that it's a badly designed system that people find unpleasant and inconvenient to use and that you people who don't mind it are in a tiny little minority.

IT people don't like it, usability experts have panned it, and, most importantly, consumers have completely rejected it on both the tablet and, especially, the PC. It now has a lower adoption rate than Vista did at this point and Vista was a spectacular failure. Barring significant improvements in the form of an SP or something, it doesn't look likely that this will change.

It's just a bad UI. Bad enough that it overwhelms the few improvements 8 has to offer over 7. That's all there is to it. People. Don't. Like. It. It's not about not be willing to learn something new or that you're just so much smarter than everyone else, it's about the fact that the new thing you're supposed to learn isn't any good. Some day you will have to acknowledge that fact.


That's a hilarious screed.
2013-04-03 07:17:37 PM
1 votes:

LasersHurt: You said you wanted the Metro UI to go away when you plugged in a mouse and keyboard and let you use it like a normal computer. That's all you have to do to dismiss Metro and go to the desktop. Then you can do the normal desktop stuff. Tap Windows again to show Metro when you're done.


Look, I know you think you're really clever with your ceaseless 'hrr hrr you just don't know how to use the Windows keyboard key' crap, but you're not. And at some point you're just going to have to accept the fact that it's a badly designed system that people find unpleasant and inconvenient to use and that you people who don't mind it are in a tiny little minority.

IT people don't like it, usability experts have panned it, and, most importantly, consumers have completely rejected it on both the tablet and, especially, the PC. It now has a lower adoption rate than Vista did at this point and Vista was a spectacular failure. Barring significant improvements in the form of an SP or something, it doesn't look likely that this will change.

It's just a bad UI. Bad enough that it overwhelms the few improvements 8 has to offer over 7. That's all there is to it. People. Don't. Like. It. It's not about not be willing to learn something new or that you're just so much smarter than everyone else, it's about the fact that the new thing you're supposed to learn isn't any good. Some day you will have to acknowledge that fact.
2013-04-03 07:04:55 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: LasersHurt: You literally cannot comprehend a world in which you hit the "Start" key on the keyboard?

What does that have to do with anything I said?


You said you wanted the Metro UI to go away when you plugged in a mouse and keyboard and let you use it like a normal computer. That's all you have to do to dismiss Metro and go to the desktop. Then you can do the normal desktop stuff. Tap Windows again to show Metro when you're done.
2013-04-03 06:20:28 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: meanmutton: Surface Pro is something amazing

If the UI turned into a properly functioning desktop UI when I plugged in a keyboard and mouse and went back to Metro when I was using the device as a tablet I'd be on it in a minute. But I'm not paying $900+ to deal with that awful Frankengui that doesn't know what it wants to be and does as much as it can to get in the way as a result.


You literally cannot comprehend a world in which you hit the "Start" key on the keyboard?

/ta-dah, no metro, switch back when you disconnect
2013-04-03 04:57:30 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: I don't understand this argument, though. If I could buy a Porsche for the price of a Civic I'd buy one too, but that's not going to happen because a Porsche is priced like a Porsche because of the class it competes in. The Surface RT has more expensive components and the Fire HD is only priced so low because Amazon is willing to take a hit on the upfront profit in exchange for getting them in people's hands to sell them content, which is something Microsoft can't do.


Apple iPad 32 Gig 264 PPI                £479 (£399 for 16 gig)
Samsung Tab 10.1 16 Gig 149 PPI    £250 (with free 16 gig SD card)
Kindle Fire HD 8.9 32 Gig 254 PPI     £259
Windows RT 32 Gig 149 PPI              £399 (only around 16 gig is usable due to OS)

That shows that the RT is iPad money but not close to iPad spec so why wouldn't you buy an iPad. The success of the Fire's and Nexus' show that people will put up with vendor lock in or slightly iffy OS's if its cheap enough.
2013-04-03 02:19:06 PM
1 votes:
Hasn't everyone who wanted a failed tablet to hack around with already bought one by now?
2013-04-03 02:03:34 PM
1 votes:

Karne: The person in charge of marketing should be the first to be fired.  All I know about the tablet is that you can click the keyboard on and off and your friends will start dancing because of it.


There are a number of people involved that should be fired.  Retailers begged Microsoft to drop the Windows name from RT because it doesn't run any off-the-shelf Windows software. MS wouldn't budge.
2013-04-03 01:27:45 PM
1 votes:

Uzzah: [www.dujodu.com image 320x240]

Still have one of these in my office somewhere. Haven't visited there more than a handful of times since the changeover. Too complicated now.


This. Once the site started looking like what happens to a site when they let their domain expire and some links page swallows up the url....it was off of my morning site crawl.
2013-04-03 01:23:52 PM
1 votes:

Norfolking Chance: Now Microsoft is having the learn the same lesson that unless your machine is as well made and as easy to use as an iPad then you can't charge the same price as an iPad. Spec doesn't matter.


This. The vast majority of people do not buy on spec anymore. The days of growth being driven by early adoptors and the geek squad are over. It used to be that that manufacturers could rely on the the geeks to take the product to a critical mass sales point. It doesn't work like that anymore. It is much harder to create buzz around a product unless it meets some user need.

The crazy thing is that these people get paid more to make obvious mistakes than I will ever see in my lifetime.
2013-04-03 01:09:06 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: TNel: RT is fine for most business users

Right. That must be why you just told me I needed a Pro.

TNel: People have iPads that can't connect to the network, they have Androids that can't connect so having an RT that can't connect isn't a big deal.

Yea, and very few people do their regular work with iPads and Androids becasue - wait for it - it's inconvenient on a domain-based network with a device that can't interact with AD. Except Google and Apple have an excuse that Microsoft doesn't: they aren't Microsoft.

Your arguments just completely ignore reality. The Surface RT is priced in the same range as similarly built products and it's getting crushed in sales by Apple, Samsung, Amazon and ASUS. It's just not a competitive product. Would sales go up if the price came down? Sure. That's broadly true of all the tablets. But would the sales go up significantly enough for the RT to be competitive? There's not evidence to suggest that because the general reaction to the RT has been simply blanket disinterest.


I told you that you needed the pro because you wanted to bind to a network.   MS always makes 2 products one for home users and one for business, which is the fact you keep skipping over.   It's not competitive because it came out way too late so the user base is not there and then they priced their device out of the market.  If MS would have priced it around the Fire it would have taken off then they could have brought out the Pro for a price just above the iPad.

But when you price yourself above your competition you will not get people to dabble, who wants to spend $500 on a new tablet that doesn't have the developer support yet?  Give RT another year and we'll see how it looks but the price breakdown shows they could have easily knocked the price down to be competitive.
2013-04-03 01:03:11 PM
1 votes:

TNel: RT is fine for most business users


Right. That must be why you just told me I needed a Pro.

TNel: People have iPads that can't connect to the network, they have Androids that can't connect so having an RT that can't connect isn't a big deal.


Yea, and very few people do their regular work with iPads and Androids becasue - wait for it - it's inconvenient on a domain-based network with a device that can't interact with AD. Except Google and Apple have an excuse that Microsoft doesn't: they aren't Microsoft.

Your arguments just completely ignore reality. The Surface RT is priced in the same range as similarly built products and it's getting crushed in sales by Apple, Samsung, Amazon and ASUS. It's just not a competitive product. Would sales go up if the price came down? Sure. That's broadly true of all the tablets. But would the sales go up significantly enough for the RT to be competitive? There's not evidence to suggest that because the general reaction to the RT has been simply blanket disinterest.
2013-04-03 12:41:46 PM
1 votes:

madgonad: TNel: HeartBurnKid: Fine.  Then let's compare it to other home tablets, and mention the fact that it doesn't have Pandora, Spotify, Amazon Video... I could go on.  FFS, it just got an official Twitter app a month ago.

And who's fault is that?  Does Microsoft have to make the app for them?

When you have billions of dollars in cash just sitting around, I'm sure there must have been some way to encourage development...


So bribery is ok in your book.
2013-04-03 12:31:34 PM
1 votes:

HeartBurnKid: Fine.  Then let's compare it to other home tablets, and mention the fact that it doesn't have Pandora, Spotify, Amazon Video... I could go on.  FFS, it just got an official Twitter app a month ago.


And who's fault is that?  Does Microsoft have to make the app for them?
2013-04-03 12:10:29 PM
1 votes:

TNel: skozlaw: TNel: What app do you need that they don't have?

I don't know what you're asking me. What apps who doesn't have? Literally none of the various tools that are common across all of my users here in the office would work on an RT device simply by virtue of the fact that it can't be joined to a domain. In particular, two key items that are important to all users: no backups and no network AV. The vendors couldn't even make apps for them because, again, they're domain-based tools. They'd have to fundamentally alter the entire system to make it work. And I'd have to manually install any app they released on every single device.

Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.  That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.  You are buying a home based item, if you want to use it on a corporate network you must buy the right version.


Fine.  Then let's compare it to other home tablets, and mention the fact that it doesn't have Pandora, Spotify, Amazon Video... I could go on.  FFS, it just got an official Twitter app a month ago.
2013-04-03 11:37:25 AM
1 votes:
Microsoft made the same mistake with the RT that Samsung and Motorolla made with their first tablets. They thought they could compete with the iPad buy making up for a worse user experiance by a slightly higher spec and price it the same.

Now Microsoft is having the learn the same lesson that unless your machine is as well made and as easy to use as an iPad then you can't charge the same price as an iPad. Spec doesn't matter.

Amazon did learn the lesson and made sure it was priced at people who wanted a tablet but couldn't afford an iPad and are making a nice little profit from the lock in.

What the RT should of been is as a cost nuetral introduction (and lock in) to the Windows 8 family (tablet, phone and desktop). Being able to sync contacts, apps and data in a seamless manner between all your devices is the holy grail of users and we have to use cludgy third party ways of doing this.
2013-04-03 11:26:44 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: TNel: Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.

Gee. If you'd bothered to read the thread before you just arbitrarily assumed I was complaining about it maybe you'd know what the conversation was all about before the point at which you wedged yourself into it and started making unfounded assumptions about the intent of my comments.


Because you were telling Babwa the wrong information.  RT is fine for most business users, the amount of laptops and crap I dish out that never hit our network is staggering.  People have iPads that can't connect to the network, they have Androids that can't connect so having an RT that can't connect isn't a big deal.  The fact that it has a good office product and can surf the net and do other general computer items puts it into what majority what people need when not working in their office.

Had the RT been priced at the $199 or even $299 it would have been a much better success, but at $500 it was dead before it even left the factory.
2013-04-03 11:21:16 AM
1 votes:

illegal.tender: TNel: That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.

OS X connects to AD just fine. Exchange, too. You don't have to have a special version.

This is ironic to me, because MS is intentionally crippling their own product (Windows) from being able to interface with... their own product (AD). There is no technical reason why Win7 Home shouldn't be able to connect to AD.

It's this kind of crap that made me decide to move away from Windows.


Price, Windows Home is $50 cheaper than Windows Pro.  That's why they call it Home it's supposed to be left at home unless you have a volume key to take it to pro.
2013-04-03 11:16:45 AM
1 votes:

TNel: Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.


Gee. If you'd bothered to read the thread before you just arbitrarily assumed I was complaining about it maybe you'd know what the conversation was all about before the point at which you wedged yourself into it and started making unfounded assumptions about the intent of my comments.
2013-04-03 11:14:16 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: TNel: What app do you need that they don't have?

I don't know what you're asking me. What apps who doesn't have? Literally none of the various tools that are common across all of my users here in the office would work on an RT device simply by virtue of the fact that it can't be joined to a domain. In particular, two key items that are important to all users: no backups and no network AV. The vendors couldn't even make apps for them because, again, they're domain-based tools. They'd have to fundamentally alter the entire system to make it work. And I'd have to manually install any app they released on every single device.


Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.  That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.  You are buying a home based item, if you want to use it on a corporate network you must buy the right version.
2013-04-03 11:08:55 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: Babwa Wawa: Any tab that can accurately do powerpoint, word, and some light excel has a large advantage over any goddamned thing on the market...

You were talking strictly price point, though, as the big problem. You can't use Office RT in a business setting unless you also license Office 365 so we're right back to the fundamentally flawed design of the device. It wouldn't matter if it had been $199, it still wouldn't have met your needs.


"Volume licenses for Office 2013 and business subscriptions for Office 365 allow commercial use of Office RT" so I'm not sure what your point is.  A lot of business have either of those so Office RT would work just fine for their needs, I know it would work fine for our business since we have a volume license.
2013-04-03 11:02:22 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: TNel: Stop brining up apps, it's not all about apps.

Uh... except... with the Surface RT it is....


What app do you need that they don't have?
2013-04-03 11:00:17 AM
1 votes:

Babwa Wawa: Any tab that can accurately do powerpoint, word, and some light excel has a large advantage over any goddamned thing on the market...


You were talking strictly price point, though, as the big problem. You can't use Office RT in a business setting unless you also license Office 365 so we're right back to the fundamentally flawed design of the device. It wouldn't matter if it had been $199, it still wouldn't have met your needs.

As for the general argument about tablets and business, I've been saying this since the iPad came out and people started saying it was going to cause a fundamental shift in business computing: nope.

Outside of a few very large corporations that can reap the long term benefits of large scale BYOD implementations and have the resources to do it properly, the fact is that the vast majority of business users just need a cheap Dell box at their desk and a copy of Office because they aren't mobile employees.
2013-04-03 10:54:35 AM
1 votes:
FTA: "The price drop is an acknowledgment that Windows RT has failed, analysts claim."For what RT does, the price point for the Surface RT is a bit high, but RT is far from failed.
2013-04-03 10:51:38 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: Like the whole "unified touch/type interface" crap they have going on with Windows 8/RT, the idea soared high but the implementation plowed face first into a crevice full of jagged rocks. The availability of apps (which is all you can work with on the RT) is still lagging and the expected ARM benefits haven't exactly been knocking anybody's socks off.


Stop brining up apps, it's not all about apps.  I could care less about angry birds or temple run or any other BS app.  If they would have made the thing cheaper or on par with netbooks it would have taken off.

What app would you like that they don't have something equal to?
2013-04-03 10:37:05 AM
1 votes:
If it was $199 I would have bought one.
2013-04-03 10:24:04 AM
1 votes:

skozlaw: The tablet and OS itself have been met with a resounding "meh" at best and outright hatred at worst, the app options are sparse and it offers no killer feature to make it a standout from the crowd.


That's why price matters.
2013-04-03 10:18:10 AM
1 votes:
Publikwerks
unlikely: Don't be absurd.
Woot doesn't do the "Bag of Crap" anymore.
I do miss them, but woot has lost it's charm since being bought.


Amazon has not been kind to the website.
2013-04-03 10:17:12 AM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: unlikely: Don't be absurd.

Woot doesn't do the "Bag of Crap" anymore.

I do miss them, but woot has lost it's charm since being bought.


Its charm and my business. Hope the founders do another startup.
2013-04-03 10:17:08 AM
1 votes:
I just can't explain the business philosophy of releasing a full OS with full capabilities and hybrids/laptops that can use it, and then a half-hearted disabled version on less than capable hardware later and expect anyone to be interested.
2013-04-03 10:08:19 AM
1 votes:

unlikely: Don't be absurd.

Woot doesn't do the "Bag of Crap" anymore.


I do miss them, but woot has lost it's charm since being bought.
2013-04-03 09:58:40 AM
1 votes:
But will they have the $99 blowout sale like HP's Touchpads?  It would be fun to see another frenzy like that.
2013-04-03 09:58:37 AM
1 votes:
How long before Ballmer gets his ass handed to him and is shown the door?

My money's on this fall.
 
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