But will they have the $99 blowout sale like HP's Touchpads?  It would be fun to see another frenzy like that.

scanman61: But will they have the $99 blowout sale like HP's Touchpads?  It would be fun to see another frenzy like that.

Those were worth it at $99, though. The RT tablets aren't worth it at anything less than free. With a puppy. And a gift card. And a trash bag to put it in so I don't have to use my own.

/ I would seriously consider buying a Surface Pro were it discounted to around $199 though
// the tablet goes in the trash bag... not the puppy

unlikely: Don't be absurd.

Woot doesn't do the "Bag of Crap" anymore.

I do miss them, but woot has lost it's charm since being bought.

I just can't explain the business philosophy of releasing a full OS with full capabilities and hybrids/laptops that can use it, and then a half-hearted disabled version on less than capable hardware later and expect anyone to be interested.

angrymacface: Babwa Wawa: Pre-launch, Ballmer was socializing $199 and $299, at which it would have sold well.  $500 is an absolutely ridiculous price - not only is it uncompetitive with other ARM-based devices, it's comparable to full intel devices.  It was DOA due to pricing, which appears to have been forced on Ballmer by Microsoft's OEM "partners".

Ballmer's made a lot of mistakes, but it's pretty clear that RT pricing was out of his control.  And with the right price, it could have been competitive with the Kindle Fire.

All of this.

Yeah when the rumors were coming out that it was going to be $199 I couldn't wait to buy one but when they said $500 screw that.  You can get one nice Android tablet for that kind of money.

Publikwerks
unlikely: Don't be absurd.
Woot doesn't do the "Bag of Crap" anymore.
I do miss them, but woot has lost it's charm since being bought.

Amazon has not been kind to the website.

skozlaw: scanman61: But will they have the $99 blowout sale like HP's Touchpads?  It would be fun to see another frenzy like that.

Those were worth it at $99, though. The RT tablets aren't worth it at anything less than free. With a puppy. And a gift card. And a trash bag to put it in so I don't have to use my own.

/ I would seriously consider buying a Surface Pro were it discounted to around $199 though
// the tablet goes in the trash bag... not the puppy

I bought two of the 32 GB Touchpads, they're now dual boot WebOS/Cyanogenmod 9.

Babwa Wawa: And with the right price, it could have been competitive with the Kindle Fire.

What information do you use as the basis for this claim? It's a new tablet and OS being offered in a market where Microsoft has historically struggled to perform. The tablet and OS itself have been met with a resounding "meh" at best and outright hatred at worst, the app options are sparse and it offers no killer feature to make it a standout from the crowd.

I can see where the Surface Pro might stand a chance, but I see no way this device ever had a chance to be competitive at any price. It offers virtually nothing to buyers in this segment except "I'm (sort of) Windows", and that just isn't going to sell.

markie_farkie: How long before Ballmer gets his ass handed to him and is shown the door?

My money's on this fall

As a Win developer, I'd love to see him be fired.

Out of a cannon.

Into the sun.

Babwa Wawa: Pre-launch, Ballmer was socializing $199 and $299, at which it would have sold well.  $500 is an absolutely ridiculous price - not only is it uncompetitive with other ARM-based devices, it's comparable to full intel devices.  It was DOA due to pricing, which appears to have been forced on Ballmer by Microsoft's OEM "partners".

Ballmer's made a lot of mistakes, but it's pretty clear that RT pricing was out of his control.  And with the right price, it could have been competitive with the Kindle Fire.

This.
Thus, the fact that the fast money fartknockers regard the price coming down as a bad thing is laughable.
I know a few people who have RT devices and love them (though most of them bough refurbished units rather than new.)
Basically the RT devices need to compete with netbooks and chromebooks on price- if they can do that they will win with people who don't already own tablets.

People will see the advantages of being able to run the same app store and thus (some of) the same apps on their computer and their tablet- That's why people who owned iPhones went out and bought iPads when they came out rather than going to another platform.

It was familiar, they were already using it and they already had the apps they wanted for it.

unlikely: That's why price matters.

I'm sure you can sell a dog turd to some fool if the price is right, but I don't think you'll make a business of it. My point is that I don't see any (realistic) price point at which this device would have been more attractive to buyers than the established alternatives because it's just not a good device. I can buy a Fire HD for $200 and the RT tablets aren't competitive with that device so they'd have to be even cheaper than that to really entice anybody.

pkellmey: I just can't explain the business philosophy of releasing a full OS with full capabilities and hybrids/laptops that can use it, and then a half-hearted disabled version on less than capable hardware later and expect anyone to be interested.

Because clearly when you're trying to consolidate desktops, laptops, netbooks, tablets and phones under one Windows 8 in order to unify apps that run on all the devices you're supposed to make multiple editions of Windows 8 that are incompatible and can't run apps between the multiple editions.

I mean, duh, obvious.

If it was $199 I would have bought one.

They did one on Monday.  You had to click the link in the main page product description which took you to the "woot gardening" page where they were selling "bags of compost"

pkellmey: I just can't explain the business philosophy of releasing a full OS with full capabilities and hybrids/laptops that can use it, and then a half-hearted disabled version on less than capable hardware later and expect anyone to be interested.

The idea was that the ARM devices were supposed to be cheaper and more efficient. Lower power, lower heat, etc. But, of course, as ARM devices, that made them largely incompatible with existing x86-based software. It was simply a tradeoff. Lower power consumption, heat, etc. but you couldn't use x86-based programs on it.

Like the whole "unified touch/type interface" crap they have going on with Windows 8/RT, the idea soared high but the implementation plowed face first into a crevice full of jagged rocks. The availability of apps (which is all you can work with on the RT) is still lagging and the expected ARM benefits haven't exactly been knocking anybody's socks off.

Babwa Wawa: Any tab that can accurately do powerpoint, word, and some light excel has a large advantage over any goddamned thing on the market, and at $200, I and many of my colleagues would not have waited 4 months to get a $600 Atom-based tab.

Docs to Go doesn't do what you need?

/haven't used it

skozlaw: Like the whole "unified touch/type interface" crap they have going on with Windows 8/RT, the idea soared high but the implementation plowed face first into a crevice full of jagged rocks. The availability of apps (which is all you can work with on the RT) is still lagging and the expected ARM benefits haven't exactly been knocking anybody's socks off.

Stop brining up apps, it's not all about apps.  I could care less about angry birds or temple run or any other BS app.  If they would have made the thing cheaper or on par with netbooks it would have taken off.

What app would you like that they don't have something equal to?

FTA: "The price drop is an acknowledgment that Windows RT has failed, analysts claim."For what RT does, the price point for the Surface RT is a bit high, but RT is far from failed.

Babwa Wawa: Any tab that can accurately do powerpoint, word, and some light excel has a large advantage over any goddamned thing on the market...

You were talking strictly price point, though, as the big problem. You can't use Office RT in a business setting unless you also license Office 365 so we're right back to the fundamentally flawed design of the device. It wouldn't matter if it had been $199, it still wouldn't have met your needs.

As for the general argument about tablets and business, I've been saying this since the iPad came out and people started saying it was going to cause a fundamental shift in business computing: nope.

Outside of a few very large corporations that can reap the long term benefits of large scale BYOD implementations and have the resources to do it properly, the fact is that the vast majority of business users just need a cheap Dell box at their desk and a copy of Office because they aren't mobile employees.

TNel: Stop brining up apps, it's not all about apps.

Uh... except... with the Surface RT it is....

skozlaw: TNel: Stop brining up apps, it's not all about apps.

Uh... except... with the Surface RT it is....

What app do you need that they don't have?

skozlaw: Babwa Wawa: Any tab that can accurately do powerpoint, word, and some light excel has a large advantage over any goddamned thing on the market...

You were talking strictly price point, though, as the big problem. You can't use Office RT in a business setting unless you also license Office 365 so we're right back to the fundamentally flawed design of the device. It wouldn't matter if it had been $199, it still wouldn't have met your needs.

"Volume licenses for Office 2013 and business subscriptions for Office 365 allow commercial use of Office RT" so I'm not sure what your point is.  A lot of business have either of those so Office RT would work just fine for their needs, I know it would work fine for our business since we have a volume license.

TNel: What app do you need that they don't have?

I don't know what you're asking me. What apps who doesn't have? Literally none of the various tools that are common across all of my users here in the office would work on an RT device simply by virtue of the fact that it can't be joined to a domain. In particular, two key items that are important to all users: no backups and no network AV. The vendors couldn't even make apps for them because, again, they're domain-based tools. They'd have to fundamentally alter the entire system to make it work. And I'd have to manually install any app they released on every single device.

TNel: "Volume licenses for Office 2013 and business subscriptions for Office 365 allow commercial use of Office RT" so I'm not sure what your point is.

I was unaware of that, I thought it was only the Office 365 licensing.

skozlaw: TNel: What app do you need that they don't have?

I don't know what you're asking me. What apps who doesn't have? Literally none of the various tools that are common across all of my users here in the office would work on an RT device simply by virtue of the fact that it can't be joined to a domain. In particular, two key items that are important to all users: no backups and no network AV. The vendors couldn't even make apps for them because, again, they're domain-based tools. They'd have to fundamentally alter the entire system to make it work. And I'd have to manually install any app they released on every single device.

Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.  That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.  You are buying a home based item, if you want to use it on a corporate network you must buy the right version.

TNel: Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.

Gee. If you'd bothered to read the thread before you just arbitrarily assumed I was complaining about it maybe you'd know what the conversation was all about before the point at which you wedged yourself into it and started making unfounded assumptions about the intent of my comments.

Srs questions:
Does it take photos?
Does it have a word processor and spreadsheet?

I may get one for the office if they drop low enough.

TNel: That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.

OS X connects to AD just fine. Exchange, too. You don't have to have a special version.

This is ironic to me, because MS is intentionally crippling their own product (Windows) from being able to interface with... their own product (AD). There is no technical reason why Win7 Home shouldn't be able to connect to AD.

It's this kind of crap that made me decide to move away from Windows.

Witty_Retort: Does it take photos?
Does it have a word processor and spreadsheet?

Yes on both, but be careful about the licensing restrictions as discussed above. You're not allowed to use Office RT for business unless your company meets certain licensing requirements.

Also, you can't join it on the domain so I'm not sure how easy it would be to move documents around unless you either email them back and forth or maybe use USB.

illegal.tender: TNel: That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.

OS X connects to AD just fine. Exchange, too. You don't have to have a special version.

This is ironic to me, because MS is intentionally crippling their own product (Windows) from being able to interface with... their own product (AD). There is no technical reason why Win7 Home shouldn't be able to connect to AD.

It's this kind of crap that made me decide to move away from Windows.

Price, Windows Home is $50 cheaper than Windows Pro.  That's why they call it Home it's supposed to be left at home unless you have a volume key to take it to pro.

skozlaw: Witty_Retort: Does it take photos?
Does it have a word processor and spreadsheet?

Yes on both, but be careful about the licensing restrictions as discussed above. You're not allowed to use Office RT for business unless your company meets certain licensing requirements.

Also, you can't join it on the domain so I'm not sure how easy it would be to move documents around unless you either email them back and forth or maybe use USB.

Thanks

skozlaw: TNel: Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.

Gee. If you'd bothered to read the thread before you just arbitrarily assumed I was complaining about it maybe you'd know what the conversation was all about before the point at which you wedged yourself into it and started making unfounded assumptions about the intent of my comments.

Because you were telling Babwa the wrong information.  RT is fine for most business users, the amount of laptops and crap I dish out that never hit our network is staggering.  People have iPads that can't connect to the network, they have Androids that can't connect so having an RT that can't connect isn't a big deal.  The fact that it has a good office product and can surf the net and do other general computer items puts it into what majority what people need when not working in their office.

Had the RT been priced at the $199 or even $299 it would have been a much better success, but at $500 it was dead before it even left the factory.

As others have said, the price really killed the surface RT. I got mine free at //build last year and it's a damn nifty device for surfing the net, playing games, email and watching movies. I could see myself paying $300 for the thing but forget it at $500. Maybe,  maybe if it had a 4G antenna I'd go as high as $450.

On the other hand, I'm in love with my Surface Pro. It's got the guts to run Visual Studio, IIS and SQL Express. Last time I flew I popped it open and programmed the whole flight. Once I got to a spot with a little wifi I checked the updates into TFS. It's great for meeting with clients and taking notes and when I have a little downtime I can whip out the pen and start sketching. It's proving to be quite the little workhorse.

Microsoft made the same mistake with the RT that Samsung and Motorolla made with their first tablets. They thought they could compete with the iPad buy making up for a worse user experiance by a slightly higher spec and price it the same.

Now Microsoft is having the learn the same lesson that unless your machine is as well made and as easy to use as an iPad then you can't charge the same price as an iPad. Spec doesn't matter.

Amazon did learn the lesson and made sure it was priced at people who wanted a tablet but couldn't afford an iPad and are making a nice little profit from the lock in.

What the RT should of been is as a cost nuetral introduction (and lock in) to the Windows 8 family (tablet, phone and desktop). Being able to sync contacts, apps and data in a seamless manner between all your devices is the holy grail of users and we have to use cludgy third party ways of doing this.

The only reason people run Windows is to use their Windows programs, not because of any fondness for its interface.  So delivering a Windows version that doesn't run anything was destined to fail.

logieal: Sadly this. Used to buy all sorts of crap on there. From literally dozens of those frickin flying monkeys up to a video projector. But I haven't bought much more than a shirt or two since the changeover.

After they switched from American Apparel Ts I even gave up on the shirts.

Based on my experience with an RT device among the many other tablet devices I've tried, there's something to be said for having completely painless printing and support for Office,plus the genuinely nice keyboard options. They're not all that good for doing real work, but they're miles and miles better than Android tablets and light years ahead of the Apple-imposed restrictions that prevent ithings from being useful (like being able to save arbitrary files on your device).

But then I don't actually need a tablet to do useful work. A few of my customers say that Surface Pro is exactly perfect for their needs, but that's the whole "x8 compatibility" issue rearing its ugly head again. RT is a non-starter. I suspect that if there were some sort of toolkit for making the umpty-zillion Microsoft Dynamics and/or VB/Access legacy apps used by small businesses run on RT, it would go a LONG way to helping with adoption rates.

markie_farkie: How long before Ballmer gets his ass handed to him and is shown the door?

My money's on this fall.

The real question is what's the chance Gates swoops back in as CEO like the Putin of technology.. If they get rid of Ballmer they need a mouth peice that can sell the company again.

TNel: skozlaw: TNel: What app do you need that they don't have?

I don't know what you're asking me. What apps who doesn't have? Literally none of the various tools that are common across all of my users here in the office would work on an RT device simply by virtue of the fact that it can't be joined to a domain. In particular, two key items that are important to all users: no backups and no network AV. The vendors couldn't even make apps for them because, again, they're domain-based tools. They'd have to fundamentally alter the entire system to make it work. And I'd have to manually install any app they released on every single device.

Then get the Pro, wth are you complaining about.  That's like someone buying Windows 7 Home and complaining it can't bind to Active Directory.  You are buying a home based item, if you want to use it on a corporate network you must buy the right version.

Fine.  Then let's compare it to other home tablets, and mention the fact that it doesn't have Pandora, Spotify, Amazon Video... I could go on.  FFS, it just got an official Twitter app a month ago.

styckx: markie_farkie: How long before Ballmer gets his ass handed to him and is shown the door?

My money's on this fall.

The real question is what's the chance Gates swoops back in as CEO like the Putin of technology.. If they get rid of Ballmer they need a mouth peice that can sell the company again.

I don't know that Gates would be interested in coming back. He seems to be very happy as a full-time philanthropist.