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(The New York Times)   I don't have any kids. But I'm a condescending urban douchebag who writes for the New York Times, so I know more about how you should be raising your kids than you do   (nytimes.com) divider line 251
    More: Asinine, Honey Boo Boo, helicopter parenting, The Modern Parents, chicken fingers, ultimatum, Super Bowl rings, anthems  
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23322 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Apr 2013 at 8:26 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-04-01 06:41:46 PM  
36 votes:
Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.
2013-04-01 07:15:16 PM  
24 votes:

Sensei Can You See: GAT_00: Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.

It's one thing to ignore them, and I agree with you on that point.

It's not always a simple issue, though. When my son was 3 months old I was flying to Portland from Chicago with him after a Christmas visit. To avoid him having any discomfort with his ears popping, I did what I always did: Started him on a bottle when we started taxiing. That way he would be swallowing when we took off.

But then they postponed takeoff. I stopped feeding him but when we actually took off about 20 minutes later, he didn't want any more formula. About 10 minutes later he started screaming bloody murder as the pressure changed.

He screamed and cried for about 20 minutes, then suddenly belched loudly and almost instantly fell asleep.

During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.


You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?
2013-04-01 07:00:15 PM  
15 votes:
While I have no kids of my own, I have many I can (and sometimes do) lease for the weekend: 11 actual nieces and nephews, whom I'll be with this Easter Sunday, and perhaps twice that number of honorary ones. I have put in my time around tots and teens, and enjoy them. I have seen my share of parenting, and am not certain what to make of it.

Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one, your anecdotal 'I spent a Sunday holiday with them' means nothing to me or any other parent out there.

God what a horrible article.
2013-04-01 07:16:03 PM  
14 votes:

Sensei Can You See: Well, what the hell was I supposed to do?


Nothing, some crap is out of your control and sensible, mature adults will understand that. Ignore the looks.

This is not about that.
2013-04-01 07:04:06 PM  
12 votes:
Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.
2013-04-01 08:36:24 PM  
11 votes:
May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.
2013-04-01 07:32:57 PM  
11 votes:

Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do?


Ideally, you stay home with a 3 month old and tell your family to visit you.
2013-04-01 06:48:11 PM  
11 votes:
Why let your kids pick out what to wear themselves? Because it doesn't really freaking matter what a young kid wears and it is an easy way  them develop self-efficacy. Why you would fight a kid over what they want to put on is the part that makes no sense.
2013-04-01 07:40:25 PM  
10 votes:
If you don't have kids, you can't comment on parenting.

If you didn't serve in the armed forces, you can't have an opinion on the war.

This is fun...
2013-04-01 08:05:36 PM  
9 votes:
People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.
2013-04-01 07:40:28 PM  
9 votes:
Well, just like some people are douchebags, some kids are douchebags, and 99.9% of the time that's because they have douchebag parents.  You don't notice the well-behaved kids. And for the terrible kids, me and you and everybody on Fark and Frank Bruni can offer all the good parenting advice in the world and it won't matter.  Bad people usually have bad kids.  It's not because nobody has ever told them a better way to do it.  It's because they themselves are not capable of being good parents.  There's not a lot to be done about it.

And I say this as someone who often feels like a terrible parent, and that I am utterly ruining my child.  But I do have a polite and generally well-behaved kid.  I'm not saying he's never thrown a tantrum, but he never got away with it for more than about a second in public (at home, meh, maybe we let it run its course).
2013-04-01 07:11:10 PM  
9 votes:

GAT_00: Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.


It's one thing to ignore them, and I agree with you on that point.

It's not always a simple issue, though. When my son was 3 months old I was flying to Portland from Chicago with him after a Christmas visit. To avoid him having any discomfort with his ears popping, I did what I always did: Started him on a bottle when we started taxiing. That way he would be swallowing when we took off.

But then they postponed takeoff. I stopped feeding him but when we actually took off about 20 minutes later, he didn't want any more formula. About 10 minutes later he started screaming bloody murder as the pressure changed.

He screamed and cried for about 20 minutes, then suddenly belched loudly and almost instantly fell asleep.

During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.
2013-04-01 08:43:34 PM  
8 votes:
You don't have to be a musician to know bad music just like you don't have to be a parent to know that someone is doing it wrong.
2013-04-01 07:19:39 PM  
8 votes:

Barfmaker: Barfmaker: This is not about that.
GAT_00: You know what you could have done? Not flown with a 3 month old. Seriously, what the fark?

Heh, well, apparently this is about that.


That's just something avoidable though.  It isn't really a badly behaved child, which this is about.  That's a parent making a poor decision with a child that shouldn't be doing anything of the sort because they can't handle it.

The problem on planes is usually the kid kicking the seat while the parent doesn't give a fark, or other versions of the kid not leaving you the hell alone.
2013-04-01 08:57:12 PM  
7 votes:
There's sure a lot of defensive breeders in this thread.
2013-04-01 08:51:33 PM  
7 votes:
The last time I acted out in public I was 5 years old.  My grandmother told me to behave or she would spank me pants down in the middle of the shopping center.  She kept her promise.  The only time she ever had to do that.  AT 43 three years old I still remember that day.  She always had money, food, a kind word, and a bed to sleep in for me and the other grand kids and any family member, but she did not tolerate BS, sloth, or anything untoward in her house.

If you forgot to brush your teeth, she would brush them for you with baking soda and peroxide.  2-3 times this happened, you brushed your teeh.

I understand babies are going to scream, par for the course, but when I see 6-10 year olds acting the fool in public, and parents saying "now dear, please stop, or you are going to get a timeout when we get home." it infuriates me to no end.
2013-04-01 08:44:35 PM  
7 votes:
I was once a condescending douchebag with more ideas about how you should raise kids while not having kids.

Then I had kids, and realized damn, I was a real douchebag with no farking clue about how to raise kids.

//Ad lib it.  It's the only way.
2013-04-01 08:21:02 PM  
7 votes:

kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.


EXACTLY.  It's not that I want to pick apart every little parenting decision you make, but if your kid is running around in a store and/or being just being a general little shiat, then I will judge you.  I don't hate kids.  Well behaved kids are great.
2013-04-01 09:01:02 PM  
6 votes:
Funny thing...I have TWO kids and I can't find a damn thing the writer of this article is wrong about.  One of my boys is a pseudo-adult (above the age of majority but his frontal lobe isn't quite fully functional yet) and one know-it-all 16 year old.  My parenting philosophy consists of 3 rules:

1.  Warn once, punish once.
2.  Teach empathy and respect for others' personal space and private property.
3.  Re-farkin'-lax.  If you've done 1 and 2...the rest is relatively easy.
2013-04-01 08:49:39 PM  
6 votes:

The Dynamite Monkey: Ya know the one thing worse than a whiney, crying baby on a flight?

A whiney, crying grownup complaining about a baby on the flight.

Sorry your watching Downton Abbey on your iPad is slightly disturbed, old snowflake.

Jeebus Crikes people, don't your brains have an "ignore" setting?

/ I guess mine doesn't either, at the moment.

Also, writer of the article: You parents did a bad job too.  They should have told you "Type less - say more.  Miss deadline if you have to."


With babies it is hard because the human brain has evolved to tune into that sound in order to help keep babies alive. No matter how hard you try, you just can't ignore that sound out because your body is designed to pay attention to it. It is the most annoying noise in the world on purpose.
2013-04-01 08:49:29 PM  
6 votes:
You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.
2013-04-01 08:42:19 PM  
6 votes:
Ya know the one thing worse than a whiney, crying baby on a flight?

A whiney, crying grownup complaining about a baby on the flight.

Sorry your watching Downton Abbey on your iPad is slightly disturbed, old snowflake.

Jeebus Crikes people, don't your brains have an "ignore" setting?

/ I guess mine doesn't either, at the moment.

Also, writer of the article: You parents did a bad job too.  They should have told you "Type less - say more.  Miss deadline if you have to."
2013-04-01 08:53:20 PM  
5 votes:

kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.


[shrug] Yeah, but do you really know how those parents discipline their kids, what's going on in that home, what's going on on that day, etc.? You see a kid having a screaming meltdown in the middle of the grocery aisle and mom just standing there (it seems) and you think or even say "Goddamn, what a horrible child/mother! She just lets her kid scream at the top of his lungs and doesn't even care about all the other customers!" Of course, you have no way of knowing, and don't care to find out, that she's been in the store for 30 seconds, that the child  has a massive ear infection, and she's stopped in to pick up the prescription for amoxicillin to cure said earache. No, you made instant connection: screaming kid=bad mom, passed your judgement and went on. Was she supposed to leave the kid in the car? That's illegal these days.

This is why people who lack kids shouldn't really be telling people with them how to raise their children. What you the childless see as a one-time awful display of revolting undisciplined behavior may or may not be anything unusual to the parent. Or may be a kid who is sick. Or may be a parent who is sick (life is fun when you can't afford day care). Or it may just be nap time; as any parent could tell you, kids go from calm & rational to cranky & impossible in about .25 seconds when nap time hits. But YOU didn't know that, did you, Mr. I-don't-have-kids?

Maybe those without kids should STFU and save their outrage for kids who really do have bad parents and show up to school with bruises on their legs, or no lunch for a week, or whose parents can't be bothered to come to parent-teacher conferences. Oh, and I have no children either, so I'm comfortable telling people with no kids of their own what to do.
2013-04-01 08:51:04 PM  
5 votes:

Doc Daneeka: I saw that article. People without kids really shouldn't presume to give parenting advice to anyone.  Bruni is like someone trying to give aviation tips to pilots based on the fact that he loves near an airport and sees planes flying overhead often.

I, too, knew everything about proper parenting, before actually becoming a parent. It looks a lot different from the inside.


Sure, except the advice is "remember to put your landing gear down before landing," and the response is, "fark you, I'll land on the fuselage if I want to; my passengers, my rules!"
2013-04-01 08:44:13 PM  
5 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.


Oh, no, no, no....

Until you have a child....

Until you have a child... you do not and cannot understand

I don't care if you're a 50 year old childcare professional with 25 years of experience dealing with hundreds of children, just none of them your own. I'm a 16 year girl who got teen pregnant and that makes me infinitely more mature and responsible than you.
2013-04-01 08:43:39 PM  
5 votes:

bronyaur1: GAT_00: Sensei Can You See: GAT_00:
[snip]

You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph:  THIS.


I'm guessing neither of you have had newborns and family across the country at the holidays.

My twin girls had August birthdays and my son was born in September. I live in California and my entire side of the family lives in a 100 mile radius of northwest Ohio.

Guess what? We flew out to visit everyone and show off the brand new grandchildren to everyone back in the midwest 3 and 4 months after they were born at Christmastime.

Much more economical than flying 50 people out to California.
2013-04-01 08:43:28 PM  
5 votes:
I saw that article. People without kids really shouldn't presume to give parenting advice to anyone.  Bruni is like someone trying to give aviation tips to pilots based on the fact that he loves near an airport and sees planes flying overhead often.

I, too, knew everything about proper parenting, before actually becoming a parent. It looks a lot different from the inside.
2013-04-01 08:35:27 PM  
5 votes:

Nadie_AZ: While I have no kids of my own, I have many I can (and sometimes do) lease for the weekend: 11 actual nieces and nephews, whom I'll be with this Easter Sunday, and perhaps twice that number of honorary ones. I have put in my time around tots and teens, and enjoy them. I have seen my share of parenting, and am not certain what to make of it.

Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one, your anecdotal 'I spent a Sunday holiday with them' means nothing to me or any other parent out there.

God what a horrible article.


Oh - so your one of those condescending urban douchebag parents ... gotcha.
2013-04-01 08:34:36 PM  
5 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


You're right.  Children should be taught that retribution is swift and absolute, and that their parents are short tempered tyrants with a fuse somewhat shorter than that of Genghis Khan.  They actually should never, ever be taught how to be reasonable, or shown how an adult expects them to behave in public, and should never, ever be given the opportunity to screw it up.  Because, you know, someone at the next table may notice them, give them the vapors, and send them running to twitter to complain to their 12 followers about the audacity some parents have bringing their children into public.  The twitter post may be accompanied by a picture.

FTA: "Above all I'm confounded by the boundless fretting, as if ushering kids into adulthood were some newfangled sorcery dependent on a slew of child-rearing books and a bevy of child-rearing blogs. The counsel keeps coming, from every possible corner and from unexpected shamans."

Know what the person I quoted and the author I quoted have in common?  Yep.  Both douchebags.
2013-04-01 08:04:32 PM  
5 votes:

GAT_00: The problem on planes is usually the kid kicking the seat while the parent doesn't give a fark, or other versions of the kid not leaving you the hell alone.


You turn around once and ask that they restrain their child.  If it continues, you turn around and tell the kid that Santa isn't real.  Now he's the parent's problem.
2013-04-01 07:48:18 PM  
5 votes:
Oh look, it's THIS thread again.
2013-04-01 07:17:35 PM  
5 votes:

Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.


I'm a parent. I've been through a lot of sleepless nights, endless days of tooth aches, colic, asthma attacks. It is so hard sometimes. And when I see kids crying, I feel for the parents as much as anything else- of course I would rather a quiet plane ride or dinner experience- but god dammit- children are going to cry. They are going to be in pain, they are going to surprise you when you least expect it. And for other people to sit there and be assholes with their looks and groans, yeah that sucks.
2013-04-01 10:21:42 PM  
4 votes:

cptjeff: You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting.


The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting, so you should just fly the airline that bans kids you should be fine. Whats that? No airline bans kids? Huh, that's odd. It's almost like the market of sensitive-eared self-important douchebags isn't big enough for even a single company to cater to.
2013-04-01 09:45:50 PM  
4 votes:
i216.photobucket.com
2013-04-01 09:42:35 PM  
4 votes:

WhyteRaven74: cptjeff: Making everybody else's life a living hell because of your shortcomings does not make you a good person.

Yes because you can't be arsed to not insist the world revolve around you for a few hours.


Oh, the irony. Saying everybody else has the right to not have to listen to your little shiat scream for hours is selfish in your book, while insisting that everybody else be inconvenienced because of your wants isn't.

Hint: When somebody is advocating something that benefits society at large, that is not being selfish. When somebody is advocating something that benefits them at the expense of the collective, that IS being selfish.
2013-04-01 09:09:10 PM  
4 votes:

Doc Daneeka: People without kids really shouldn't presume to give parenting advice to anyone.


Or maybe we could all get over ourselves and understand that both parents and non-parents are affected by childrearing decisions, and that neither parents nor non-parents have a completely realistic and unbiased view of childrearing, nor an intimate understanding of any particular situation in any particular family's life?

People don't magically become a parenting  gurus just because they hang around their kids for a few years. In many cases the fark their children the hell up. You should judge this (and all other) advise on its value, not on its author's supposed credentials.
2013-04-01 08:58:21 PM  
4 votes:

GAT_00: You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?


How about no.

I agree that a 3-month-old should be taken on planes as seldom as reasonably possible, but once for a major holiday, or for a cross-country move (normally you wouldn't plan to move three months after having a kid, but life's not always cooperative like that) is not unreasonable.  And if an adult can't deal with a few screaming babies for a while, maybe <i>they're</i> the ones not mature enough to go on a long plane ride.
2013-04-01 08:51:56 PM  
4 votes:

Babbs: You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.


So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?
2013-04-01 08:46:11 PM  
4 votes:
There is little reasoning to be had with a 2 and a half year old.
2013-04-01 08:39:21 PM  
4 votes:
arrogance is mankinds folly. to think you have to be a parent blah blah blah. we are all surrounded by evidence of parents that did little to no parenting, horrible parenting and miserable parenting every day. if i was able i would have had most of you sterilized long ago. few parents do the job well, most are passing on all the miseries of their own farked upbringing, poor genetics and adult stupidity.
2013-04-01 08:08:39 PM  
4 votes:
I Don't have kids either, and that guy is 100% correct.
2013-04-01 07:23:51 PM  
4 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


This.

GAT_00: Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.


And this.  It seems more and more that people in general (i.e. including adults) have NO farkING CONCEPT of not being in other people's way.  And it gets passed even worse one generation to the next.  My wife and I were in a really busy grocery store on Saturday, and this one kid (had to be at least 12) was all over the place sometimes practically sprinting, cutting weird angles and getting in people's way.  Later on this random guy in the checkout line behind us is talking to us a lot, and the kid comes out of nowhere looking to cut in BETWEEN THE MAN AND HIS CART at the same time the man was gesturing with his hand.  Smacked the kid right in the face.  The guy apologized profusely and checked on the kid, but the kid just had a pissy angry biatch look on his face.  My wife told him he needed to apologize for running into the man and to watch where he was going.  He ran off.  It made my day.

/cool farking story, bro
2013-04-02 01:16:34 AM  
3 votes:

Nadie_AZ: Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

I'm a parent. I've been through a lot of sleepless nights, endless days of tooth aches, colic, asthma attacks. It is so hard sometimes. And when I see kids crying, I feel for the parents as much as anything else- of course I would rather a quiet plane ride or dinner experience- but god dammit- children are going to cry. They are going to be in pain, they are going to surprise you when you least expect it. And for other people to sit there and be assholes with their looks and groans, yeah that sucks.


I've been in Paris for the past few weeks and the children here are the most well behaved I have ever seen. I have not witnessed one melt down in a restaurant or tantrum in a public place. Two hour ride on a train sitting across from a 10 year old and not a peep.

It can be done.
2013-04-01 10:55:09 PM  
3 votes:
I have three kids. One of them turns 20 this month. I agree with a lot of what this guy says. I don't understand today's parents either. Yes, I want my children to love me, but I also want them to respect me. And by respect, I mean fear the consequences of disobeying me. I tell my kids to do something one time and only one time. If they don't do it, they face consequences. Repeat offenses result in increasingly severe consequences. As a result, they know they better do it the first time I say it. If they want to appeal their case, they are welcome to do so if they maintain a respectful tone. I might sound strict, but I've been told many times that I have very well-behaved children.

Because they have been raised this way from day one, they already know how to behave, so they don't misbehave. I don't have to deal out punishment very often, so my being strict does not mean my children live under an oppresive dictatorship. Most of the time things are pleasant.

If children don't learn to fear punishment for misbehaving or disobeying, they will not fear the consequences they will face as adults for breaking laws or not following rules where they live or work. Often, those consequences end up being criminal charges or civil lawsuits. And it'll be their parents' fault for not raising them properly.
2013-04-01 09:57:47 PM  
3 votes:
if you are in my family, and your child goes off in a restaurant, one or both of the parents will exit the building with the child immediately. there is no discussion in public. there is no negotiation with the child, or steps taken to determine what is wrong or causing the child to act up. all of this will be determined outside. the primary and immediate action item is to remove the disturbance from those that should not be subjected to another child's crying whining or screaming. period.

whether or not the parent(s) returns depends on the chances of the child acting up again.
if the chances are 99% no problem, they may return.
if not, the child is not taken to restaurants again until such a time as they can be expected to behave.
2013-04-01 09:37:17 PM  
3 votes:
The article didn't seem extraordinarily over the top. What's missing, though, is real insight. It's really, really easy to notice misbehaving kids and parents making mistakes. Some parents will learn what works and what doesn't, others won't.

Here's the rub: there are great parents who still can have kids that are crappy. Some parents get lucky with pretty easy kids that don't get in trouble. There are a ton of factors in the dynamics between parents and kids, and it never works out perfectly because we're all imperfect.

Most people know after they've screwed up. The hard part is making more good decisions in the moment, when you don't have time to prepare. When you're tired and have had a long day and you're hungry and irritable.
2013-04-01 09:33:07 PM  
3 votes:
I have a lot more sympathy for a three-month-old dealing with ear problems during a flight than I do for an overweight Aspie neckbeard whining about how they had to endure hearing something they didn't wish to for a few hours before moving on with their lives.
2013-04-01 09:30:06 PM  
3 votes:
If you are bothered by the article, it means you probably can't control your kids.
2013-04-01 09:23:52 PM  
3 votes:
My non-breeder complaint is parents who seem to think we've all built up the level of tolerance for their offspring's behavior as they have. Folks who'll be having a conversation or whatever, kid'll break out in a tantrum or otherwise enter into hellion mode, and mom or dad will just give a little "that's nice, kid, seen it a million times before" glance, and then go back to whatever they were doing. A lot of us haven't seen it before though, and the public brattiness is grating. Don't assume we can all tune it out like you do, mom and dad.

/And as a side note, we don't find graphic descriptions of your baby's poop cute. Try and keep it to yourself.
2013-04-01 09:23:19 PM  
3 votes:

Mithiwithi: nd if an adult can't deal with a few screaming babies for a while


There's a difference between a screaming baby in an open space where people can leave and a baby screaming for 10 hours in a tightly packed tube with no possibility of escape.

It's incredibly annoying. If you cannot get your child to shut up, don't fly. I don't care how inconvenient it is for you- you don't get to make the lives of 150 other people a living hell. Short and quickly hushed outbursts won't piss too many people off. But when you let your little grub drone on like an air raid siren, it should go with the checked baggage or not at all.

Here's the thing: your kid may be the most precious thing on the planet to you. But only to you. Think about it this way: if somebody bought a dog on board that seemed physically incapable of not barking, would you say that everybody else on the flight should suck it up? No, you'd be rooting for the plane to land and for the dog and its owner to be offloaded somewhere in rural kansas. That's how we feel about your kid. And you.
2013-04-01 09:16:33 PM  
3 votes:

Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do?


Not be a cockbag and forgoe flying with your child until it is old enough to be able to behave in public.
2013-04-01 09:15:25 PM  
3 votes:

Babbs: I get more annoyed at inconsiderate adults than I do with kids. At least the kids have an excuse..they're KIDS.


I get annoyed with adults who think that just because they have kids that they also have a right to be inconsiderate to other adults in public areas.
2013-04-01 09:15:23 PM  
3 votes:
Cool story: Kids from 3 doors down, 4 and 6 years old, routinely wonder around the neighborhood including through my garage and backyard.  On occaision, they have ended up watching me work on my truck, none of which bothers me at all.  However, one of the benefits to being childless is the ability to use whatever language I like, while in my own garage.  As a result, the little nose-miners get an expanded vocabulary.  After one of them went home and called their mom "twatwaffle," mom herself comes storming over, furious with me.  I told her that curseless babysitting was $20 per hour, and curse-full was free.  They haven't been back.
2013-04-01 09:13:31 PM  
3 votes:

Nadie_AZ: Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

I'm a parent. I've been through a lot of sleepless nights, endless days of tooth aches, colic, asthma attacks. It is so hard sometimes. And when I see kids crying, I feel for the parents as much as anything else- of course I would rather a quiet plane ride or dinner experience- but god dammit- children are going to cry. They are going to be in pain, they are going to surprise you when you least expect it. And for other people to sit there and be assholes with their looks and groans, yeah that sucks.


Why are the other people assholes because they are annoyed by someone's screaming child?
2013-04-01 08:49:18 PM  
3 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


You don't negotiate with terrorists.
2013-04-01 08:48:10 PM  
3 votes:
It's like all those New Yorker articles written by a guy who never left the city until the age of 42 when he buys a house in Connecticut and does 2000 words on the joys of hammering a nail.
2013-04-01 08:47:04 PM  
3 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.


There's definitely something to be learned from observation, but this article has shares the same condescending tone found in many, many conversations I've had with New Yorkers.  I don't actually care for the constant know-it-all attitude and one upsmanship you find with those folks.  His tone is part of the problem, but it's normal in NYC and just aggravating anywhere else.  Hence all the negative reactions.
2013-04-01 08:43:01 PM  
3 votes:
This guy sounds like a Farker.
2013-04-01 08:42:12 PM  
3 votes:
I must go to the right restaurants - I never hear or see screaming kids. How often does this really happen, and is it worth biatching about? My family and I eat out once a week, on a average, and screaming kids are never part of the equation.
2013-04-01 07:54:36 PM  
3 votes:

Osomatic: Well, just like some people are douchebags, some kids are douchebags, and 99.9% of the time that's because they have douchebag parents.  You don't notice the well-behaved kids. And for the terrible kids, me and you and everybody on Fark and Frank Bruni can offer all the good parenting advice in the world and it won't matter.  Bad people usually have bad kids.  It's not because nobody has ever told them a better way to do it.  It's because they themselves are not capable of being good parents.  There's not a lot to be done about it.

And I say this as someone who often feels like a terrible parent, and that I am utterly ruining my child.  But I do have a polite and generally well-behaved kid.  I'm not saying he's never thrown a tantrum, but he never got away with it for more than about a second in public (at home, meh, maybe we let it run its course).


Assuming your kid is being fed and not abused, it sounds like you're doing a perfectly good job as a parent.
2013-04-02 10:59:49 AM  
2 votes:

Gyrfalcon: I've come to the conclusion that people who make these kinds of arguments (about how parents should raise their kids, how kids should behave, how teachers should teach/kids should learn) not only have forgotten how it was to be kids...they were never actually children themselves. They somehow leaped from infancy to adulthood without actually traversing the long agonizing road in between.


Close. It's because they never actually grew up.
2013-04-02 02:55:08 AM  
2 votes:

the ha ha guy: zippie26: A lot of these threads never take into consideration...the love you feel for your kid. There's nothing like it. No, it's not the same as what you feel for your nieces, nephews, dog, cat, or spouse. That's why people with kids tell people without them that they have no idea what they are talking about. Nothing comes close. The way you love your kid and the way they love you, like you are everything in their little world, is a very powerful thing.


What a lot of parents fail to take into consideration in these threads is that asshole kids and their parents do more than just cry for a few minutes in a confined area.

But since I'm incapable of being a parent, I can never know what 'real love' is, so I'll have to settle for a type of love that doesn't require praising a kid for knocking a cripple to the floor in the middle of Walmart.


According to the logic in this thread, that cripple needed to stay the hell out of Walmart lest he get knocked on his ass. People who get in the way of the Cheetos display should know they got it coming.
2013-04-02 01:55:03 AM  
2 votes:

Moonfisher: My suggestion is that you get some noise canceling headphones and grow up. If you can't deal with the ups and downs of society, stay home.


Doesn't that cut both ways?  If the parents of noisy kids can't deal with the dirty looks from strangers, shouldn't they also stay home?
2013-04-02 01:35:56 AM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Sensei Can You See: GAT_00: Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.

It's one thing to ignore them, and I agree with you on that point.

It's not always a simple issue, though. When my son was 3 months old I was flying to Portland from Chicago with him after a Christmas visit. To avoid him having any discomfort with his ears popping, I did what I always did: Started him on a bottle when we started taxiing. That way he would be swallowing when we took off.

But then they postponed takeoff. I stopped feeding him but when we actually took off about 20 minutes later, he didn't want any more formula. About 10 minutes later he started screaming bloody murder as the pressure changed.

He screamed and cried for about 20 minutes, then suddenly belched loudly and almost instantly fell asleep.

During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?


I managed to get my kids to 4 and up so far without having to fly with them. That being said, I can see why some people in certain situations might need to do so. My suggestion is that you get some noise canceling headphones and grow up. If you can't deal with the ups and downs of society, stay home.
2013-04-02 01:30:52 AM  
2 votes:
This guy should have a kid and then come back and write a column apologizing to all parents everywhere.

It was really easy to be a perfect parent before I had a kid. Once you have a kid, being a parent is like repairing a plane in mid-flight, you're just trying to keep everything from crashing to the ground.
2013-04-02 01:25:25 AM  
2 votes:

Witness99: Nadie_AZ: Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

I'm a parent. I've been through a lot of sleepless nights, endless days of tooth aches, colic, asthma attacks. It is so hard sometimes. And when I see kids crying, I feel for the parents as much as anything else- of course I would rather a quiet plane ride or dinner experience- but god dammit- children are going to cry. They are going to be in pain, they are going to surprise you when you least expect it. And for other people to sit there and be assholes with their looks and groans, yeah that sucks.

I agree. I don't have kids, so I'm not accustomed to all the screaming/crying etc...but I never give a dirty look to a parent. Parents are making great sacrifices that will benefit the community and all of humanity. People without kids need to suck it up and instead of complaining about being inconvenienced, be appreciative that others are raising up the next generation...which you will most likely depend on.


Oh please stop with the parent martyr complex crap. Most parents have children for selfish reasons.
2013-04-02 12:56:59 AM  
2 votes:
I have kids and this guy is EXACTLY RIGHT.  You don't negotiate with a 3 year old.  Who the fark is in charge here?
2013-04-01 11:51:07 PM  
2 votes:
I raised mine, so excuse me while I laugh at the butthurt breeders.  Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.  So, here's mine about the parents who raise their kids like they'll break.  Model respectful behavior, demonstrate the art of choice, but put the hammer down when necessary.  Who's running the show?  There's a reason you're the adult.

/every time I hear some muppet say 'good job' because their kid managed not to break his face it's like biting tinfoil
2013-04-01 11:49:04 PM  
2 votes:

Gyrfalcon: As to the anecdotes of kids running amok like hijackers in training up and down the aisles, kicking seatbacks as if they were en route to NFL kickers' training camp and the rest, well, perhaps you fragile grownup snowflakes should spring for business class if you are experiencing such horrors on a routine basis.



Last year, some brat in a store yanked my cane out of my hand, hit me in the back of the legs, and ran off. When the manager tracked down the kid and his mother (I was sitting in the aisle waiting for another employee to bring a scooter), the mother told the manager "why should I care? It's my son's cane now".

So, should the parent be forced to take responsibility for teaching their kid not to commit assault against random people for no other reason than "that person has something I want"? Or was it my fault for not being a fragile grownup snowflake unable to handle a metal cane to the back of my legs?
2013-04-01 11:42:58 PM  
2 votes:

EdNortonsTwin: We were all kids once. For the whiners who dont like kids that make noise, well its an unfortunate bit of business... that your parents had any.


I didn't ask to be born, and I'm doing my part by not breeding.
2013-04-01 11:30:43 PM  
2 votes:

cptjeff: Cagey B: I have a lot more sympathy for a three-month-old dealing with ear problems during a flight than I do for an overweight Aspie neckbeard whining about how they had to endure hearing something they didn't wish to for a few hours before moving on with their lives.

I have no problem with the 3 year old. I have major problems with the idiot adults who put it there.


What's endlessly fascinating about these arguments (beyond their base stupidity) is how they invariably devolve into "kids on planes" debate, as if airplanes were a sanctuary of Zen solitude and silent contemplation being destroyed by phalanxes of screaming kids and their Dr. No-inspired parents bent on global domination one LA-to-Chicago flight at a time.

If your peace of mind is so easily shattered it can be forever destroyed by a crying toddler whose ears are hurting from being at 35,000 feet for a few hours, then perhaps you need some intensive therapy at a remote and costly Malibu resort (I can provide a telephone number). As to the anecdotes of kids running amok like hijackers in training up and down the aisles, kicking seatbacks as if they were en route to NFL kickers' training camp and the rest, well, perhaps you fragile grownup snowflakes should spring for business class if you are experiencing such horrors on a routine basis. I and my family fly fairly regularly and have never encountered them. The same is true for the restaurants you apparently frequent and the shops you patronize: follow your own advice and go elsewhere if they are so filled with demonic children and Satanic parents.

There are, of course, bad parents and rotten kids. I'm not yet convinced they are as rampant as people's fears make them; much like terrorists and gun-grabbing liberals.
2013-04-01 11:09:39 PM  
2 votes:
By submitter's logic, none of us have the right to criticize the leader of any country as none of us are leaders of a country.

Nor should we criticize a horrible movie and likely we haven't directed a big name Hollywood movie.
2013-04-01 11:06:09 PM  
2 votes:

Nabb1: lilplatinum: Nabb1:
You'll get over it. Well, normal people get over it.

You know whats more abnormal than people not getting over crying children in cramped confined spaces for hours at a time?  People who can't seem to get over the fact that some people find that unpleasant.

Of course it's unpleasant, but it's not a crime against humanity. Get over it. Flying sucks all around these days. TSA, overbooking, fees for everything, no peanuts. Sack up and deal with it.


That's why I don't fly. Because, as someone with a brain injury, it's actually physically painful for me to deal with screaming children for five hours in an enclosed space. Besides that, because of my brain injury, I'm prone to impulse control issues. I do extraordinarily well controlling my impulses for someone with TBI and PTSD because I don't allow my condition to be an excuse for bad behavior and because I have a lifetime of discipline, but I guarantee you that hours in a tin can with a screaming kid plus some little shiat kicking my seat because his parents can't be arsed to control him? I'll probably lose my temper. Not on the kid, but on the parents. And they'd farking deserve it.

And that's why some airlines are offering child-free flights: because there are many parents who can't be arsed to even try to control their little darlings.

Now babies crying, that's beyond anyone's control once they've been fed and changed. The pressure differential hurts the baby's ears and the only way they know to express it is cry. But your little toddler? Control that brat. I flew frequently as a toddler and I never kicked a seat back 'cause if I did, it was a trip to the bathroom to get my little ass warmed by mom's hand.
2013-04-01 11:02:03 PM  
2 votes:
I think parents -- especially today's well-off, trend-aware urban parents of the type that read NY Times op-eds -- could stand to be reminded that they operate within a culture that extends beyond themselves and their offspring, and when the rest of us see you negotiate with a 3-year-old as if you're on equal footing, we wonder why you're choosing not to act or think like an adult.
2013-04-01 10:43:20 PM  
2 votes:

cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.


Cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young kid.   Since all airlines allow kids, YOU are the one who will just have to deal with it.

Planes are for travel.  They aren't designed to provide you perfect peace and quiet towatch movies, or work on your laptop, or read books.  Those are nice diversions, but providing the perfect environment for your little activities isn't their purpose; their only purpose is to get you where you need to go.  Expecting never to be annoyed by a baby on group transportationis totally unreasonable.
2013-04-01 10:40:24 PM  
2 votes:

Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.


While you're feeding happily off of the 1%er teat (which, yes, uses the cattle theory of customer "service"), ANY tipped employee would tell you that a screaming kid is detrimental to their sanity and income.  Guess what?  The waiter that brought you the high-chair is silently wishing you'd just leave, because once that baby starts whining, the tips start declining.
2013-04-01 10:36:54 PM  
2 votes:

Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.


Since you really do seem to be that clueless, what's appropriate to the setting has absolutely nothing to do with what the airline says. It has to do with something called "social convention". The people who make forks don't tell you where to put them, but in certain settings there are pretty strictly kept rules about how to lay a place setting anyway.
2013-04-01 10:14:19 PM  
2 votes:

cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?


See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.
2013-04-01 10:08:32 PM  
2 votes:
Nabb1:
You'll get over it. Well, normal people get over it.

You know whats more abnormal than people not getting over crying children in cramped confined spaces for hours at a time?  People who can't seem to get over the fact that some people find that unpleasant.
2013-04-01 09:47:49 PM  
2 votes:

darthaegis: ArcadianRefugee: May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.

Exactly!!!!  Not having ever been in a warzone doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people that have on how to evaluate threats and survive.  In fact, it's the lack of experience that gives them such keep insight and allows them to logically assess the situation objectively.

~rolls eyes~


Bzzt!

I can tell a good quarterback from a bad one, despite never having been one. And if saying, "Hey, you! You should be more like that guy, who has three times as many touchdown passes to his name than you do, and a Super Bowl ring to boot. Where's your ring?"

I see well-behaved children, and children that need to be put down. Then I look to the parents, and I see common traits shared with those of the well-behaved kids, and ones shared by those who spawned brats. Guess which ones I try to model myself after?

If pointing you to the betterother half makes me a "know-it-all", so be it; you're still a bad parent, and I'mma call you on it. Simply having a little crotch-spawn of your own doesn't grant you any spectacular powers or insights; if it did, there would be no horrid children (unless you're simply an asshole who intentionally raises shiatstains for kids).
2013-04-01 09:36:39 PM  
2 votes:

walkingtall: Arthur Jumbles: Why are the other people assholes because they are annoyed by someone's screaming child?

Hate to tell ya...but that pretty much does make you an asshole. Put on some headphones and ignore it or offer to help or give comfort to what are probably very stressed parents. And even if those parents are the rare ones who really are as bad as you think they may be, do the best you can get off the plane and go on with your life. THAT would mean you arent an asshole. Im guessing you would go with option B though.


The parents are being rude and inconsiderate. Everybody knows that babies don't handle flying well, that's why you don't fly with babies. If you fly a 3 month old around during the holidays to show him off to all the family that just shows you care more about your own selfish desires than the other people around you or the comfort and happiness of your own baby, for that matter.
2013-04-01 09:20:00 PM  
2 votes:
Rules for dealing with children in public places:

1) You used to be a kid too, and probably bothered people. This is part of life.

2) It helps to imagine that screaming kid as the doctor who cures your cancer or be paying for your retirement.

3) Since all of our entitlements are based on the next generation paying for the last, perhaps we should tax extra those people who are too greedy of free time to not have children of their own to support their generation. I mean we tax rich people who are too greedy, so why not tax those who are spending more than their alottment of leisure time?
2013-04-01 09:18:28 PM  
2 votes:
And here is an alarming for your subby. Most people have no idea how to raise children, yet they can have how many they want. That's sad and scary at the same time.
2013-04-01 09:17:52 PM  
2 votes:
Sorry farkers but I agree with some of what the douche said. As a mother of three who also helped with the grandchildren when they were little I know that it is possible for children to behave in public, store, church or wherever. We were asked once "what's wrong with your kids?" It seems the person asking didn't understand that they stayed next to us in the supermarket because they knew that was expected of them. You can't do much with a crying baby except take them away from the setting. Impossible in a plane. You can teach preschoolers how to behave.
2013-04-01 09:16:15 PM  
2 votes:

Donnchadha: ArcadianRefugee: May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.

Oh, no, no, no....

Until you have a child....

Until you have a child... you do not and cannot understand

I don't care if you're a 50 year old childcare professional with 25 years of experience dealing with hundreds of children, just none of them your own. I'm a 16 year girl who got teen pregnant and that makes me infinitely more mature and responsible than you.



Ummmmmmmm no. It's makes you a 16 year old fornicator who was too stupid to use birth control.

And a few other things I'm sure you are aware of.
2013-04-01 09:14:26 PM  
2 votes:

Moopy Mac: Babbs: Moopy Mac: Babbs: You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.

So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?

Did I say that? No. I just said that people that judge people with kids about how they are raising them should really try to be a little understanding, because when the time comes, they will be in the exact situations. No kids are perfect. Even the best ones act like assholes in public once in a while.

/ And my kids are grown now. And they both hate kids.

You said that people without kids don't know shiat about parenting. This means you believe they should not criticize your parenting. The next logical step is that they should not criticize the actions of your children which are caused by your parenting. How is that a leap from what you said originally?


For god's sake, dude. Get over it. Life is full of little inconveniences and annoyances. If every time someone's kid misbehaves in a supermarket or plane to where it makes your farking life so miserable, maybe you should just lock yourself in your house 24/7 so you don't have to get yourself all worked up over it. Your annoyance isn't going to change how people raise their kids. I was just saying maybe try to have a little understanding? And yes, I'm going to criticize kids' actions caused by bad parenting if the farking kids are stealing, murdering, etc...not crying too much when you are trying to enjoy your grand slam at Denny's. Get some perspective.
2013-04-01 09:11:30 PM  
2 votes:
As children we weren't taken into a sitdown restaurant until we had proven we would not scream and fight and run around. Not saying that I and my siblings were angels at the restaurant, because we weren't but my parents weren't the empty threat kind. You got your one warning before you went into the restaurant, and anything after that meant banishment out to the car with a parent who was p*ssed that they were missing one of the few nights out to a restaurant that my family could afford to take. I don't think any of us kids ever left more than once. You don't need to beat a child, but your threats can't be empty, either.
2013-04-01 09:08:49 PM  
2 votes:

Techhell: kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.

Some of you do. Maybe even most of you do.

But some of you... some of you really get on our last nerves.

"Will you shut that kid up?" -Stupid idiotic morons to the parents of a screaming child

What? Why? I LOVE the sound of a screaming toddler in the middle of a grocery store. It's literally music in my ears - why would I want to deny EVERYONE the most beautiful music in the world? That's why i'm holding her right next to my own ears, because I just love her screaming at the top of her lungs directly into my ears.


You made a conscious decision to bring a life into this world (something I will do in the future). You don't then get to throw your hands up and divorce yourself from the repercussions of that decision, whether it is providing food or not inconveniencing others. It is no one else's responsibility, so when you are held to it, don't play the victim card. That seems relatively simple.
2013-04-01 09:07:38 PM  
2 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: He's asking people to grow a backbone when dealing with their children in public situations.  I fail to see the outrage.


This right here.

Submitter sounds defensive.  There was nothing douchebaggy about that article.  If your kid is obnoxious or you're a dipshiat parent, expect looks and groans and an inclination to give you as wide a berth as possible.
2013-04-01 09:05:37 PM  
2 votes:

Babbs: You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.


I don't have children, but would agree with you on your point that you can't fully understand an experience until you experience it for yourself. In some ways, a person without a child giving a person with a child parenting advice is akin getting sex advice from a virgin.

However, as others have pointed out, you don't have to experience something to learn some lessons from others' misfortunes during said experience. If that experience is shooting heroin, you might not have to be an information recipient or even a spectator for long before you decide that it's not for you. Getting back to the topic at hand, even people who don't have children have some type of idea how they would raise children. But, as the saying goes "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." There are just so many variables with having and raising children, from congenital issues to disposition, you can't know for sure what you're going to deal with, both good and bad...a lot of unpredictability.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the author, as he comes off as pompous to me, but it is also amusing to me just how much ire he is drawing out. That type of reaction tells me that he has some valid points. Maybe it will make some people sit back and reflect a little bit, which is never a bad thing.
2013-04-01 09:01:35 PM  
2 votes:
I get more annoyed at inconsiderate adults than I do with kids. At least the kids have an excuse..they're KIDS.
2013-04-01 09:01:03 PM  
2 votes:

Moopy Mac: So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?


No, they just have as much right as you do. I've been far more annoyed by drunk 20-somethings laughing like hyenas on a plane than a kid crying, but both have carte blanche to be their annoying selves. I don't know what your mom taught you, but mine taught me that tolerating others is part of living in society.
2013-04-01 08:59:34 PM  
2 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: He's asking people to grow a backbone when dealing with their children in public situations.  I fail to see the outrage.


This
2013-04-01 08:58:28 PM  
2 votes:

Nadie_AZ: Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one


You can't expect anyone to take you seriously hen you're suggest that the one and only ay to become knoledgable about childrearing is to sit next to a child for a fe years. I'm not saying this guy is an expert, or even makes any sense, but the idea that becoming a parent someho imbues people ith parenting skills and knoledge, and therefore that people ithout children can have no such knoledge, is absurd.

Parents are notoriously blind to certain aspects of their relationships ith their on children in particular. For example, parents are almost universally unilling to see their on children as real people, rather than an extension of themselves, long past the point hen the rest of the orld recognizes the difference. Most parents have very little training in childrearing outside their on experiences, so they have limited perspective and experience on hich to model their behavior. And like any other relationship it's often difficult to evaluate objectively from the inside, so parents are poor judges of their on performance.

This guy might just be some childless blohard ith nothing useful to say. But categorically dismissing the opinion of everyone ithout a child at their hip hen discussing childrearing is just as ridiculous as dismissing the opinion of everyone not currently in a bus hen discussing public transportation. Everyone as once a child. The majority of people have been or ill be parents. And everyone is affected by the ay e raise children, even if they never directly participate.
2013-04-01 08:56:54 PM  
2 votes:

gingerjet: Nadie_AZ: While I have no kids of my own, I have many I can (and sometimes do) lease for the weekend: 11 actual nieces and nephews, whom I'll be with this Easter Sunday, and perhaps twice that number of honorary ones. I have put in my time around tots and teens, and enjoy them. I have seen my share of parenting, and am not certain what to make of it.

Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one, your anecdotal 'I spent a Sunday holiday with them' means nothing to me or any other parent out there.

God what a horrible article.

Oh - so your one of those condescending urban douchebag parents ... gotcha.


Exactly. FTA: "They're toddlers, not Pakistan."

Article is dead-on. Suck it, child spoilers.
2013-04-01 08:56:14 PM  
2 votes:

Nadie_AZ: While I have no kids of my own, I have many I can (and sometimes do) lease for the weekend: 11 actual nieces and nephews, whom I'll be with this Easter Sunday, and perhaps twice that number of honorary ones. I have put in my time around tots and teens, and enjoy them. I have seen my share of parenting, and am not certain what to make of it.

Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one, your anecdotal 'I spent a Sunday holiday with them' means nothing to me or any other parent out there.

God what a horrible article.


This. Nieces and nephews aren't even comparable to sons and daughters. Not even in the same league. It's like tee ball vs. Major League Baseball.

I think he's trolling us though. What day is it again?
2013-04-01 08:55:23 PM  
2 votes:
G. K. Chesterton wrote "Before I got married I had six theories about raising children.  Now I have six children and no theories."

The problem is that all children are different; there's no one-size-fits-all approach.

My mom was leinent and permissive with me; but I was a timid girl.

The article writer sounds a bit douchy.  He needs a beer.
2013-04-01 08:54:59 PM  
2 votes:
He's asking people to grow a backbone when dealing with their children in public situations.  I fail to see the outrage.
2013-04-01 08:52:49 PM  
2 votes:

meat0918: I was once a condescending douchebag with more ideas about how you should raise kids while not having kids.

Then I had kids, and realized damn, I was a real douchebag with no farking clue about how to raise kids.

//Ad lib it.  It's the only way.


Plan ahead for every conceivable circumstance that your crotchfruit will get into.  You were a shiatty kid, your kid will do the same shiatty things you did.  Don't forget those shiatty things.  How do you think your parents were able to deal with a shiatty kid?  They were shiatty kids once too.

Then whip their ass when they screw up, tell them you love them and send their ass off to bed.  Rinse, repeat until the kid stops being shiatty.
2013-04-01 08:51:58 PM  
2 votes:
Children should be beaten not heard.
2013-04-01 08:49:03 PM  
2 votes:

Kuta: bronyaur1: GAT_00: Sensei Can You See: GAT_00:
[snip]

You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph:  THIS.

I'm guessing neither of you have had newborns and family across the country at the holidays.

My twin girls had August birthdays and my son was born in September. I live in California and my entire side of the family lives in a 100 mile radius of northwest Ohio.

Guess what? We flew out to visit everyone and show off the brand new grandchildren to everyone back in the midwest 3 and 4 months after they were born at Christmastime.

Much more economical than flying 50 people out to California.


Did you whine when people gave you dirty looks because of your crying 3 month old?
2013-04-01 08:48:25 PM  
2 votes:
if parents knew what they were doing we wouldn't have articles like these.
2013-04-01 08:48:01 PM  
2 votes:

Osomatic: Well, just like some people are douchebags, some kids are douchebags, and 99.9% of the time that's because they have douchebag parents. You don't notice the well-behaved kids. And for the terrible kids, me and you and everybody on Fark and Frank Bruni can offer all the good parenting advice in the world and it won't matter. Bad people usually have bad kids. It's not because nobody has ever told them a better way to do it. It's because they themselves are not capable of being good parents. There's not a lot to be done about it.


I think this is quite accurate. One common thread is that these people seemingly lack the ability to be introspective.
2013-04-01 08:47:00 PM  
2 votes:

Donnchadha: ArcadianRefugee: May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to inject himself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.

Oh, no, no, no....

Until you have a child....

Until you have a child... you do not and cannot understand

I don't care if you're a 50 year old childcare professional with 25 years of experience dealing with hundreds of children, just none of them your own. I'm a 16 year girl who got teen pregnant and that makes me infinitely more mature and responsible than you.


Sounds like the Blackhawk Down of helicopter parenting.
2013-04-01 08:20:19 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Sensei Can You See: GAT_00:
[snip]

You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?


Jesus, Mary, and Joseph:  THIS.
2013-04-01 07:00:53 PM  
2 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.



Truth.
2013-04-04 08:02:06 PM  
1 votes:

Doc Daneeka:

GeneralJim

Oh, so you tell them to stop throwing a tantrum.  So simple and brilliant. Why didn't we think of that?

Non-parents sure have all the answers.

i45.tinypic.com
2013-04-03 03:19:45 AM  
1 votes:

lostcat: Pincy: lostcat: It surprises me that on Fark, a place where people joke about public schools turning kids into mindless drones ready to enter the workforce unquestioningly, there are parents who pride themselves on how efficiently they've browbeaten their kids into doing whatever they are told, unquestioningly.

I see parents who are raising kids to fit into their own lifestyle, not parents who care about their kids as people.

Teaching your kids to be mindful of others is not browbeating them into submission. If you can't tell the difference then don't have kids please.

And exactly how do you teach a two year old to be "mindful of others" when they haven't really mastered the rudiments of language yet?


So you were referring to two year olds in your previous post? Are there a lot of two year olds going to public schools where you live?
2013-04-03 03:14:46 AM  
1 votes:

Doc Daneeka: Pincy: Doc Daneeka: Lot of non-parents in this thread who know everything about proper parenting.

Lot of those people are going to get a major reality check someday when they are behind the wheel.  Your perspective changes a lot.

Are there shiatty parents?  Absolutely.  Lots of them.

All I'm saying is, it's really easy to judge.  It's much harder to do.

Pennsylvania Dutch Oven: The reality is that these people will gladly take your praise when you complement their children for good behaviour (I actually got to do that in an up-scale restaurant this weekend). Sorry parents, if you want the glory, you have to eat the shiat too.

See, here's the thing.  Most parents don't give a shiat about what strangers think one way or the other.  As I said, your perspective changes.  Concern number #1 is the health, safety, well-being, and instillation of knowledge and values to the child.  Whether or not random strangers are annoyed or pleased by your parenting methods moves way down your list of priorities.

Ya that's the problem, parents teach their kids to have no respect for other people.

No - parents prioritize parenting their child over worrying about what random people think.

Point is, it's not about you.


Point is, it's about teaching your children to live in a civilized society, so no, it's not about me, it's about everyone.
2013-04-02 06:57:55 PM  
1 votes:

heili skrimsli: Surpheon: More interestingly, the kicking only while seated (not running around) is interesting because research has found adults also tend to kick the seat in front of them if their seat is too high to fully rest their feet on the floor.

The difference is that when I turn around and say in a neutral tone of voice 'Could you please stop your kid from kicking the back of my seat?' the responses I've gotten have included 'But he's just a kid. You don't need to be a biatch.'

Somehow I doubt I would be considered the biatch if I said that to an adult.


I'm pretty sure the same folks who would call you a biatch for saying that to a kid would say it just as quickly if you said it to them as an adult (they tend to do so if you ask them not to text during a movie or something).
2013-04-02 01:19:44 PM  
1 votes:
It surprises me that on Fark, a place where people joke about public schools turning kids into mindless drones ready to enter the workforce unquestioningly, there are parents who pride themselves on how efficiently they've browbeaten their kids into doing whatever they are told, unquestioningly.

I see parents who are raising kids to fit into their own lifestyle, not parents who care about their kids as people.
2013-04-02 12:56:04 PM  
1 votes:
OK, everyone, please stop. Everything has been said (most of it by people who didn't RTFA and thought the guy was whining about kids on airplanes).

Move on. Look, there's a really great thread up there! Wow! Let's all go check it out!
2013-04-02 12:21:40 PM  
1 votes:
So for all of you who say non parents can not comment on parenting, you are suggesting that:

Not a soldier/sailer/Marine/airmen? No point of view on the war. So stop that now.
Not a rape victim? No point of view on rape.
Not a cop? No point of view on excessive force.
Not a gun owner? No point of view on gun control.

Cause ya know, you have no direct experience with the situation so you  can not have an opinion.
2013-04-02 12:09:04 PM  
1 votes:
To the `you haven`t grown up if you haven`t had kids` I`ll flip that one for you.

YOU haven`t grown up. Your development has been retarded by having to put it at the level of a child so often you can`t even imagine the place you would be at if you did not do that.

You are still trying to live up to your prepubescent dreams of a nuclear family and make everything you wanted at age 6 come to pass.

Grow up. You will never be a princess. Your child will not be a princess either.
2013-04-02 12:00:43 PM  
1 votes:

Lollipop165: I went out to dinner at a relatively fancy Italian restaurant off of Central Park West on Friday. We had reservations for about 6:30pm.

As I was getting a drink at the bar, I noticed a table of parents with what was probably a 6 month old. Cutest 6 month old ever. But I thought the parents were insane to bring such a young child to such a nice restaurant. But the kid was surprisingly fine. And all of my friends (who btw have kids around the same age) said hello to the family and complimented them on how well-behaved their daughter was.

But I gotta ask, was that 6 month old well behaved cause that was her nature? Or well behaved cause her parents taught her that?

Again, 6 months seems a little young to be understanding "manners".


Was the kid being entertained by a TV show on a tablet?  That's the newest craze, and it sucks.  "oh, it keeps her quiet!"  Yes, and I have to listen to Looney Tunes at an upscale restaurant.
2013-04-02 11:50:54 AM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


hopestillfloats.files.wordpress.com
2013-04-02 11:40:21 AM  
1 votes:
You have to be willing to give up a whole lot of your life to be a parent, but it's incredibly rewarding.  The problem I see is parents who never wanted to be parents. They're just not willing to put the effort in, and won't be swayed by strangers giving them the death glare.

I'll often smile at a stressed out parent in the grocery store who has a crying infant, infants are great, they only cry for a reason.  Figure it out and problem solved.  I won't smile at that same parent at a restaurant, that's where the parents needs to be less selfish and think of someone besides themselves.  No restaurants till you kids learn the rules of restaurants.

Crying toddlers in a grocery store, that's the parent's fault for taking them shopping at nap time.  Not doing your kid any favors with that garbage.  Rewarding that crying and begging with candy?  That just makes me sad for the kid's future.  Again, no point in getting all raged up about it however, it's a bit hypocritical to dump on a parent who can't control their kid by being an adult who loses control of their own emotions.
2013-04-02 11:38:40 AM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: the ha ha guy: Gyrfalcon: As to the anecdotes of kids running amok like hijackers in training up and down the aisles, kicking seatbacks as if they were en route to NFL kickers' training camp and the rest, well, perhaps you fragile grownup snowflakes should spring for business class if you are experiencing such horrors on a routine basis.


Last year, some brat in a store yanked my cane out of my hand, hit me in the back of the legs, and ran off. When the manager tracked down the kid and his mother (I was sitting in the aisle waiting for another employee to bring a scooter), the mother told the manager "why should I care? It's my son's cane now".

So, should the parent be forced to take responsibility for teaching their kid not to commit assault against random people for no other reason than "that person has something I want"? Or was it my fault for not being a fragile grownup snowflake unable to handle a metal cane to the back of my legs?

Yes, indeed, those are exactly the same situation. Indeed, a bratty assaultive child who attacks you in a store and steals a personal possession is precisely the same as an unhappy infant in pain who is crying on board an airplane. They are, verily, identical situations, and you should handle them in precisely the same way. Clearly there is not the slightest bit of difference between the two situations, or the two children in question, and they should in fact be dealt with in exactly the same way.

Because clearly you are too retarded an adult to be allowed out in public without a minimum of two caregivers to explain the difference to you; and probably you need at least three more to help you keep your lungs inflated and your legs moving independently of one another when you travel outside to yell at clouds.


This guy thinks the kid.should get to keep the cane, apparently. Lol
2013-04-02 09:59:16 AM  
1 votes:

lostcat: There are three types of people in this thread:

1. People who aren't parents, but who think they could control a child at all times and keep it from annoying other adults (because to them, that's the sign of a good parent).

2. People who are parents and who have learned to crush their children's will in order to avoid being labelled a bad parent because the don't "have control over" their kids. These parents will go on to raise kids with all kinds of control issues.

3. People who are parents and who don't mind being given the evil eye by other adults occasionally, because the they don't hover over their kid 24/7 making sure that they are doing everything the way the adults around them want them to.


You forgot
4. People who aren't parents and who have enough basic human empathy, a working memory of their own childhoods & decent observational skills to give a wide latitude to those people who did decide to have kids. However, just because I haven't personally housed a child in my uterus doesn't render *all* my opinions null & void.
2013-04-02 09:40:59 AM  
1 votes:

Hoban Washburne: kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.

EXACTLY.  It's not that I want to pick apart every little parenting decision you make, but if your kid is running around in a store and/or being just being a general little shiat, then I will judge you.  I don't hate kids.  Well behaved kids are great.


Parental Farkers who think the author just doesn't get it need to take a good look in the mirror. Please.
2013-04-02 08:46:55 AM  
1 votes:
Hah hah, all the bad parents are offended by this guy's advice.  It's kind of funny how this guy without children knows more about how to raise a decent human being than a lot of the so called parents on this forum.

I raised two kids from infant to adulthood.  They thrive on rules, they learn respect for others, they understand consequences without the need for drama, and are generally much happier when you are a parent first and a friend second.  As they grow older, you give them more and more responsibility and control over their situations, until they're fully functioning and independently thinking humans.  Now, I'm friends with them first and a parent second.

Have fun with the miserable lazy entitled sheep you're raising.
2013-04-02 04:35:48 AM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: Kids can also run down aisles and kick seats in a restaurant or theater, yet a few in this thread have defended exactly that.

Actually no, no one has. Only one other person has even mentioned a theater and the thirty odd mentions of kick problems have all been clearly and explicitly dealing with planes. Go to bed, you're imagining things.


Actually, I have had kids kick the hell out of my seat in theaters as well. And on trains. And in planes. My method of dealing with it (if the parents don't try first) is to turn to the parent and politely ask them to please ask their child to stop kicking my seat. If the kicking keeps up (and mind you, we're talking the kid's been kicking at the seat for a good while; not just moving or shifting and accidentally hits the seat back. It's deliberate and been consistent for at least 15-20 minutes before I say anything each time I have to turn around), I turn a second time to the parent and ask again, a little less politely. If I have to ask a third time, I tell the child directly to stop and that they won't be asked again. If so much as one more kick happens, I get an usher (if in a theater) and have them removed. If on a plane, I hit the call light and have the flight attendant deal with it (usually they threaten to get the captain at that point because they've seen or heard at least one of the polite requests already). If on a train, I get a conductor to deal with it. If mom and dad won't control the child, I let someone with authority handle both mom and child because the kid needs to know that there are adults in the world who will back up what they say they're going to do.

Kids need limits. And they will push and test until someone sets them. I've raised three--two girls and a boy--and not one of them was one I gave birth to. But I'm closer with them than they are to their own mothers because I set limits for them and expected them not to cross those limits. And I never once had to put my hands on the kids or crush their spirits, either. And yes, each kid was different and is different, and so different things worked with each one. But for the folks who mentioned leaving a shopping cart or turning around in the parking lot or eating dinner from a styrofoam container... been there, done that. And yes, it is very effective, even with a four year old. And you would be damn surprised how many older folks will just about fall over in shock to see someone under 40 pick a child up when he's in the middle of a temper tantrum, carry him outside, and say to his nine year old sister, "nope, we're leaving. We'll get groceries another time when your brother isn't screaming his head off because I won't give him a candy bar."

Yes, it really is about consideration for others sometimes, even when there are circumstances that make that 4 year old more prone to scream his head off over a candy bar, such as the fact that mom and dad have been deployed for all but two months of the past two years and he knows you better than his own mother. But all those other people in that store don't know that--nor can you honestly expect them to. The kid still needs consistent rules and discipline, whether it's his mother or his mother's best friend, that stability has to be there. So the consideration is not just for the people who can't tolerate a screaming kid or don't want to, but for the kids' well-being also. The article made a very good point when the author implied that the world doesn't give a fark if mommy thinks you're the best and smartest and deserve 99 chances, because your boss generally isn't going to give you more than one chance.
2013-04-02 04:10:41 AM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


Yeah. I would pay good money to eat at a restaurant that bans children.
2013-04-02 03:35:51 AM  
1 votes:

Pincy: archichris: Pincy: baska: I raised mine, so excuse me while I laugh at the butthurt breeders.  Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.  So, here's mine about the parents who raise their kids like they'll break.  Model respectful behavior, demonstrate the art of choice, but put the hammer down when necessary.  Who's running the show?  There's a reason you're the adult.

/every time I hear some muppet say 'good job' because their kid managed not to break his face it's like biting tinfoil

OMFG THIS!!!

Your kids do not need to be praised for every single thing they do. They need to learn that it is expected of them to act civilized and they aren't going to get a cookie for merely doing so.

You sound fat. Good job you!

Touched a nerve apparently.


Modelling a desired behavior is a great teaching tool.
So is praising/rewarding a desired behavior.
Punishing undesired behavior works well too.

These are all tools that parents have at their disposal and use. If it bothers you to be present when a parent is using any one of them, you should probably avoid places where people are with their children.
2013-04-02 03:24:27 AM  
1 votes:

LisaSimpson: Aw jeez not this shiat again.

Here is something that NEVER gets brought up in the parents vs non-parents argument.   Did everyone magically forget what it was like to be a CHILD themselves?  Sure you're not going to remember being an infant, but I remember as far back as two and a half.  I remember when I farked up.  I remember how my parents reacted.  I remember what I could have done better, and now as an adult can look back and evaluate what they could have done better.  How is none of that experience relevant?!  I'm not *trying* to troll, but I'm genuinely curious.

I really hate the animosity that goes on with this argument.  Not all parents are terrible and we should really focus on recognizing the good parents.  We should also focus on being good adult role models ourselves.  But parents, just because I haven't given birth (and found out about a year ago that I can't anyway) doesn't mean that my thoughts are invalid.  I still remember if I acted up in public, my mom would scoop me up and we'd go straight home, even if it meant she didn't finish her shopping.  Boy did you not want that to happen.  My mother-in-law did the same thing when my husband was a kid.  How is that experience not relevant in understanding childcare?  I would do that EXACT same thing as a parent.  They clearly could do it.

/Teachers deal with 30 kids at a time.  Don't tell me that isn't difficult.
//I've been there, and I learned a TON about working with kids (and you can't tell me I didn't)
///slashies


I've come to the conclusion that people who make these kinds of arguments (about how parents should raise their kids, how kids should behave, how teachers should teach/kids should learn) not only have forgotten how it was to be kids...they were never actually children themselves. They somehow leaped from infancy to adulthood without actually traversing the long agonizing road in between. NO, they do NOT recall how it was to be a child...because it never happened to them. They don't recall that hormonal minefield known as middle school...because they didn't live it. They say "Oh, sure, kids can sit in a classroom for 7 straight hours with no recess," because they have NO MEMORIES of not being able to do so themselves.

It's the only way to explain why so many people have such unrealistic expectations of kids; and not just non-parents who smugly look at parents struggling with their kids. It includes parents who can't figure out why their own kids haven't, for instance, mastered potty training at six months and won't obey mommy in the grocery store at age two. They themselves were never kids somehow, so they have no comprehension of what it is to be a child. I don't understand how this can happen, of course; but I'm firmly convinced that somehow it does happen.
2013-04-02 03:04:13 AM  
1 votes:
Main issue as I see it is that most of you, who fart out a genetic gold lumps think that you just keep on as before
with you Yuppie skate board life's and do as you always did.

The generation before, actually planed life around the small parasites and did not fly with baby's or go rafting
and im sure that's it possible to make the call, replicate or have fun, perhaps it helps if you in fact know how much the cost is in schools ect.

Just forget about having kids and the rest of the world be more happy
2013-04-02 02:25:30 AM  
1 votes:
I'm a parent. My child is quantifiably better than the vast majority of children. She's probably better than your child. I formed most of my parenting philosophy before having kids by watching you cretins fark it up, and probably 90% of it was spot on.

Get off your crosses, and realize that being a parent doesn't make you special, doesn't give you any special insight or knowledge that can't be gleaned from basic observation, and sure as hell doesn't make you any smarter. Raising a child mainly just proves that you aren't (too much) dumber than a toothless 15 year old in West Virginia. Nothing more, nothing less.
2013-04-02 02:21:49 AM  
1 votes:
I used to be annoyed by kids in public, screaming in planes, etc. then I had one. Now, for some reason, it doesn't bother me any more.

I used to think I knew how I would raise my kid, then I had one. Looking back, a lot of the things I thought I knew about how things would be were wrong.

A lot of these threads never take into consideration...the love you feel for your kid. There's nothing like it. No, it's not the same as what you feel for your nieces, nephews, dog, cat, or spouse. That's why people with kids tell people without them that they have no idea what they are talking about. Nothing comes close. The way you love your kid and the way they love you, like you are everything in their little world, is a very powerful thing.

Like Mike Tyson said, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Until you experience it for yourself, your ideas on what you would do in certain situations are hearsay and laughable. It's always so easy in a vacuum, just make sure you come back after you have your own kids and see how you do.

Oh, and people who say you can't fly on a plane with a baby...buy some headphones.
2013-04-02 02:21:37 AM  
1 votes:

frostus: Psycat: frostus: Psycat: BTW, I used to have an interest in reading about serial killers and how they got that way.  There were a few bad seeds who grew up evil even with good parents, but in the overwhelming majority of the time, it was usually because of a neglectful mother, a physically-abusive drunk for a father, or religiously-fanatical parents.

Man, I'm way behind on my killing spree.

If you really did have an awful childhood, at least you're smart enough to acknowledge it.  Unless you have an overpowering urge to have children, you might want to seriously consider not being a parent, especially if you think you'll be just as bad to your kids as your parents were.  Or, in the words of Barney Fife, "Nip it in the bud!" (Snip it in the bud?)  My parents were pretty good, but my childhood was awful in many other ways--I just consider it being handed a "Get Out of Parenthood Free" card in life...

Too late - four kids (current ages 33, 31, 27, 21).

/five grandchildren so far


Hopefully no serial killers in the lot.  I do know people who have had bad childhoods and then turned into decent parents against the odds.  If that's your case, more power to ya.  On the other hand, if somebody who had a bad childhood decided to give up on parenthood, I don't think any reasonable person would blame them...
2013-04-02 02:09:11 AM  
1 votes:
What gets me about this tiresome debate about kids on an airplane is that about 90% of you Farkers just don't get it.  It always turns into a I-hate-kids vs. a deal-with-my-bratty-kids debate, which is a stupid thing.  Neither side is absolutely right; it's more of an issue of who's being more reasonable in a certain situation.

If it's some ultra-sensitive douchebag who sues the airline because he barely heard a child on the other end of the plane burp a couple of times, then the kid-hater is the asshole who's being unreasonable.  If it's some brainless Homer Simpson who can't understand why total strangers would be upset that his kid barfed in their lap, then the kid-lover is the asshole who's being unreasonable.

Simply put, it's not some sort of false dichotomy of kid-haters vs. kid-lovers even though you Farkers keep portraying it that way.  It's like I have to smack your heads together and assert that "Certs is a farking candy mint and Certs is also a farking breath mint, so quit being so militantly one-sided already"...
2013-04-02 02:08:42 AM  
1 votes:

Pincy: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

That's the problem, we really don't expect people to act appropriately any more, or at least we don't do anything about it when they don't. In the US we are much more concerned about protecting an individuals right to be a douchebag than everyone else's right to not have to tolerate it.


well, i firmly believe in negative reinforcement.
if people aren't acting properly, they probably aren't going to change their behavior unless somebody corrects them.
simple advice given cheerfully can escalate into eviscerating condemnation if the reaction demands.

of course i am not mean in front of kids unless given no choice, but i will tell they might get a whooping if their daddy gets a black eye or something.
2013-04-02 01:56:29 AM  
1 votes:

cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.


That's the problem, we really don't expect people to act appropriately any more, or at least we don't do anything about it when they don't. In the US we are much more concerned about protecting an individuals right to be a douchebag than everyone else's right to not have to tolerate it.
2013-04-02 01:38:59 AM  
1 votes:

Pincy: Oh please stop with the parent martyr complex crap. Most parents have children for selfish reasons.


THIS x 1,000,000.

I have no issue with people who want to be parents, have the maturity to raise children, and are willing to work hard to make sure their kids grow up to be decent people.

Unfortunately, I know way too many stupid losers who become pregnant because they want welfare benefits, or idiot jerks who father kids because they're too lazy to go buy a box of condoms.  I had a temp job once at a place that processed child-support payments, and it's amazing how many guys were paying support to six brainless welfare hos while working part-time at Wal*Mart.  And those were the responsible guys--the truly evil ones never pay support or even go as far as buying a box of diapers for even one of their baby-mommies.  I used to live in a trailer court where there were several women who'd leave their 3-5 kids home alone while they went to the local bar to find some other dumb-schmuck semen donor.

Parenthood is a voluntary status.  Nobody points a gun and forces you to procreate--it's hard to get a decent erection with a gun at your temple.  If you're gonna fark, either get *reliable* birth control or at least have the maturity to deal with the consequences if you slip one past the goalie...
2013-04-02 01:33:54 AM  
1 votes:

Cobataiwan: Rules for dealing with children in public places:

1) You used to be a kid too, and probably bothered people. This is part of life.

2) It helps to imagine that screaming kid as the doctor who cures your cancer or be paying for your retirement.

3) Since all of our entitlements are based on the next generation paying for the last, perhaps we should tax extra those people who are too greedy of free time to not have children of their own to support their generation. I mean we tax rich people who are too greedy, so why not tax those who are spending more than their alottment of leisure time?


Hmm I don't recall getting to deduct extra from my taxes for all those dependent a I don't have. Also, believe it or not, there are some people who should not be parents and we should be rewarding them for not doing so.
2013-04-02 01:31:09 AM  
1 votes:

Fano: Psycat: Fano: mike_the_engineer: I have kids and this guy is EXACTLY RIGHT.  You don't negotiate with a 3 year old.  Who the fark is in charge here?

I do pediatrics and my motto is "I don't negotiate with terrorists."

The few times I have to deal with someone's brat (most kids are tolerable), make me really appreciative of my child-free lifestyle.  I have very little sympathy for people who do a crappy job of parenting, then have to bail their son out of jail or babysit their 14-year-old daughter's child.  It's the crappy parents who serve as a good argument for requiring a Breeding License...

Most kids are actually pretty good. I only get annoyed when I watch a parent pulling the "junior, I'm going to punish you on the count of 10. 9.5, 9.6, 9.7, 9.9, 9.999, 9.9999..." etc. I then use the firm teacher voice I learned from my parents and the kid does as told. The parent then says a self effacing "I can never get him to listen," to which I always think "you've never actually tried to make him listen."


Teachers have told me that they have no trouble telling which of their elementary-school students are going to grow up to be criminals or other failures at life.  Most of their parents are too irresponsible to even bother ever meeting with the teacher, and the ones who do make it amply apparent that they never grew up themselves.

I'll admit that there's the occasional bad seed who turns out rotten in spite of decent parents, but I'd wager in about 95% of the cases, the acorn doesn't fall very far from the oak.  The permanent underclass is basically the same maladjusted idiots perpetuating their farked-up lifestyle over and over and over and over again--it often seems that the people who are the least cut out to be parents are the ones having the most kids.  Most of the decent parents I know limit themselves to 1-2 kids; I personally know of at least 3 alcoholic welfare queens with 4 or more kids, from different fathers of course.
2013-04-02 01:26:25 AM  
1 votes:
My kids still talk about the time we drove into the city (about 20 miles) to spend the day shopping and roaming the mall and they were acting like asses on the drive down. I told them to cut it out or there would be no mall and when they continued being jerks I pulled into the mall parking lot, made a u-turn and drove straight back home. They were pissed but they had nobody to blame but themselves (and each other).
2013-04-02 01:23:57 AM  
1 votes:

Psycat: Fano: mike_the_engineer: I have kids and this guy is EXACTLY RIGHT.  You don't negotiate with a 3 year old.  Who the fark is in charge here?

I do pediatrics and my motto is "I don't negotiate with terrorists."

The few times I have to deal with someone's brat (most kids are tolerable), make me really appreciative of my child-free lifestyle.  I have very little sympathy for people who do a crappy job of parenting, then have to bail their son out of jail or babysit their 14-year-old daughter's child.  It's the crappy parents who serve as a good argument for requiring a Breeding License...


Most kids are actually pretty good. I only get annoyed when I watch a parent pulling the "junior, I'm going to punish you on the count of 10. 9.5, 9.6, 9.7, 9.9, 9.999, 9.9999..." etc. I then use the firm teacher voice I learned from my parents and the kid does as told. The parent then says a self effacing "I can never get him to listen," to which I always think "you've never actually tried to make him listen."
2013-04-02 01:18:43 AM  
1 votes:

RenownedCurator: Parents routinely surrender control when they shouldn't, replacing rules with requests, and children are expected to chart their own routes to good behavior, using the faulty GPS's of their flowering consciences, I suppose. Families are run as democracies. Parents forget: in the political realm, you don't get a say until you're 18. There's a reason for that.

That quote? Absolutely spot on. And I say that as a mother of three young children who have not always been angels in public. Kids are not born knowing how to be polite, accommodate other people, or generally be civilized. It's the parents' job to teach them, and if it means having to abandon a grocery cart to go home due to a tantrum, or walk out of a restaurant because a child couldn't stop shouting (both of these things happened exactly once) then that's what you do. I will say that I think it's easier to get spooked about disciplining children in public these days -- you never know when some busybody might decide that a swat on a toddler's bottom is child abuse and decide to take down your license number or start screaming at you. There are a considerable number of people who think that even time outs are wrong because they're shaming and socially isolating the child. Which is nuts, but there you are.

This is not to say that children don't get choices, but they should get smaller ones, which increase in importance as they get older and demonstrate their ability to handle them. They don't get to decide to eat Pop Tarts for breakfast, but they can choose the colour of plate they'll have their breakfast on. They don't get to run around screaming in a museum, but on a family vacation you can give them a choice of which museum they would like to see. In other words, not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship.

About the airplane issue -- we take a lot of road trips, but if you've only got four days off for Thanksgiving and your family lives 2000 miles away, isn't in great health, and would like to see the ...


I agree totally. I was gobsmacked by a friend the other day who was horrified that her 4 year old child didn't wear a jacket on a snowy day. Why? Because she asked the child if he wanted to put on his jacket to go outside. Being still at the age where saying "NO" is the default answer to everything except "do you want candy, he said no. AND SHE WENT WITH IT. It really would have been as easy as phrasing it "do you want to wear your red jacket or your blue jacket," or some variation thereof in which the child is "given a choice" but either choice is a desirable outcome. At an older age a child would get to learn the consequences of not wearing their coat, as the parent advised.

I also remember from my childhood that when I was misbehaving in public, my mother gave me a firm "do we have to go to the bathroom/outside" and when that event was triggered there was a clear line to either behave or face the consequences. Kids seem to deal best when the rules are clear, not endlessly negotiable, as kids given the chance are astonishingly good little lawyers, remembering every precedent for why they should be allowed to do something.
2013-04-02 01:08:09 AM  
1 votes:

Fano: mike_the_engineer: I have kids and this guy is EXACTLY RIGHT.  You don't negotiate with a 3 year old.  Who the fark is in charge here?

I do pediatrics and my motto is "I don't negotiate with terrorists."


The few times I have to deal with someone's brat (most kids are tolerable), make me really appreciative of my child-free lifestyle.  I have very little sympathy for people who do a crappy job of parenting, then have to bail their son out of jail or babysit their 14-year-old daughter's child.  It's the crappy parents who serve as a good argument for requiring a Breeding License...
2013-04-02 01:02:45 AM  
1 votes:

mike_the_engineer: I have kids and this guy is EXACTLY RIGHT.  You don't negotiate with a 3 year old.  Who the fark is in charge here?


I do pediatrics and my motto is "I don't negotiate with terrorists."
2013-04-02 01:02:21 AM  
1 votes:
Looking back I realize that I should have beaten my children daily just to keep the fear in them.

Not really, but yeah, if my kids misbehaved in public I took them in private and then when I got done, they were more well mannered.  Oh, and neither one of them became serial killers and they were both productive members of society.
2013-04-02 12:52:57 AM  
1 votes:
The writer didn't seem like a condescending douchebag at all.  I agreed with almost everything he wrote.  I suspect submitter has some sort of chip on his/her shoulder.
2013-04-02 12:47:43 AM  
1 votes:

RenownedCurator: Parents routinely surrender control when they shouldn't, replacing rules with requests, and children are expected to chart their own routes to good behavior, using the faulty GPS's of their flowering consciences, I suppose. Families are run as democracies. Parents forget: in the political realm, you don't get a say until you're 18. There's a reason for that.

That quote? Absolutely spot on. And I say that as a mother of three young children who have not always been angels in public. Kids are not born knowing how to be polite, accommodate other people, or generally be civilized. It's the parents' job to teach them, and if it means having to abandon a grocery cart to go home due to a tantrum, or walk out of a restaurant because a child couldn't stop shouting (both of these things happened exactly once) then that's what you do. I will say that I think it's easier to get spooked about disciplining children in public these days -- you never know when some busybody might decide that a swat on a toddler's bottom is child abuse and decide to take down your license number or start screaming at you. There are a considerable number of people who think that even time outs are wrong because they're shaming and socially isolating the child. Which is nuts, but there you are.

This is not to say that children don't get choices, but they should get smaller ones, which increase in importance as they get older and demonstrate their ability to handle them. They don't get to decide to eat Pop Tarts for breakfast, but they can choose the colour of plate they'll have their breakfast on. They don't get to run around screaming in a museum, but on a family vacation you can give them a choice of which museum they would like to see. In other words, not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship.

About the airplane issue -- we take a lot of road trips, but if you've only got four days off for Thanksgiving and your family lives 2000 miles away, isn't in great health, and would like to see the ...


You hit the nail on the head.  You expand the breadth of choices allowed as a child shows maturity enough to make the choices we hope will benefit them.  For some reason the term "benevolent dictatorship" makes me think of Robert Heinlein but that's a good thing when it comes to kids.
2013-04-02 12:39:13 AM  
1 votes:

nekom: Oh look, it's THIS thread again.


Would you prefer another gun thread?
2013-04-02 12:31:14 AM  
1 votes:

archichris: But really , kids scream, the wind blows, farts stink, and someday those kids will pay for your prostate exam. SO get over it.


Well sure. And when my kid started screaming in a restaurant (or when I needed to fart!) we'd step outside. So the innocent people around me don't have to get over it. This is hard?

Okay, admittedly it is hard on airliners, which is why we didn't put the kid on one until he was old enough to behave. Farting is a problem on airliners, too.
2013-04-02 12:26:10 AM  
1 votes:

baska: I raised mine, so excuse me while I laugh at the butthurt breeders.  Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.  So, here's mine about the parents who raise their kids like they'll break.  Model respectful behavior, demonstrate the art of choice, but put the hammer down when necessary.  Who's running the show?  There's a reason you're the adult.

/every time I hear some muppet say 'good job' because their kid managed not to break his face it's like biting tinfoil


Bravo!
/although I did say, "Good job," when he faceplanted, sorry. The "good job" was actually for being willing to take the risk to fail again. All his life, we emphasized you get good at something by being willing to fail at it over and over while you learn. It worked, but if you were in the park with us, sorry about the tinfoil! :)
2013-04-02 12:20:37 AM  
1 votes:
archichris:

The kid's parents are passing them out to all the passengers?  Awesome!

There are like ten zones in which air travel is pleasant. In the rest of the world its a nightmare all the time. Packing some noise cancelling headphones is rule #1 if you dont like noises. Some giant noise deadening ear covers are better. Really why should Human Civilization collapse in 30 years just because you dont like kids?  Not worth it. It would be far simpler ...


What are these 'ten zones' you speak of?  It's always unpleasant.  But it's made worse by inconsiderate asswipes.
2013-04-02 12:19:22 AM  
1 votes:
Parents routinely surrender control when they shouldn't, replacing rules with requests, and children are expected to chart their own routes to good behavior, using the faulty GPS's of their flowering consciences, I suppose. Families are run as democracies. Parents forget: in the political realm, you don't get a say until you're 18. There's a reason for that.

That quote? Absolutely spot on. And I say that as a mother of three young children who have not always been angels in public. Kids are not born knowing how to be polite, accommodate other people, or generally be civilized. It's the parents' job to teach them, and if it means having to abandon a grocery cart to go home due to a tantrum, or walk out of a restaurant because a child couldn't stop shouting (both of these things happened exactly once) then that's what you do. I will say that I think it's easier to get spooked about disciplining children in public these days -- you never know when some busybody might decide that a swat on a toddler's bottom is child abuse and decide to take down your license number or start screaming at you. There are a considerable number of people who think that even time outs are wrong because they're shaming and socially isolating the child. Which is nuts, but there you are.

This is not to say that children don't get choices, but they should get smaller ones, which increase in importance as they get older and demonstrate their ability to handle them. They don't get to decide to eat Pop Tarts for breakfast, but they can choose the colour of plate they'll have their breakfast on. They don't get to run around screaming in a museum, but on a family vacation you can give them a choice of which museum they would like to see. In other words, not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship.

About the airplane issue -- we take a lot of road trips, but if you've only got four days off for Thanksgiving and your family lives 2000 miles away, isn't in great health, and would like to see the kids before they're 18, sometimes you have to grit your teeth, pack 8,000 little toys and snacks, and do it. Not to mention that we also have family in Puerto Rico, and there's no car in the world that will drive you to San Juan from the mainland.
2013-04-02 12:12:20 AM  
1 votes:

archichris: Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.

Feel free to go find a childless society in which to live. Actually we would all be happier if your parents had done the same.

But really , kids scream, the wind blows, farts stink, and someday those kids will pay for your prostate exam. SO get over it.

But by far the most important reason that a parent says to a child....."this is your last chance" is because we are constantly looking for that moment when the child becomes sentient enough to bargain. Before that moment they just scream and you have no choice but to pacify....which encourages more screaming later, or punish....which doesnt work, or distract....which works great but most parents are so worn out they can't manage it.

Once the kids are old enough to bargain you have it made because you control all the fun stuff......

want ice cream?  eat your veggies. Want more tv time? brush your teeth. etc......

It isnt the fault of the kids or of me that some parents arent smart enough or strong enough to manage the bargaining. So you will have to get used to it.

Think of it this way, if you were really so important that you should be protected from crying children, you probably would be rich and famous and be eating in a restaurant that doesnt allow kids or in a private dining room with some VIPs

But you arent, so get over it.


I prefer to think of "bargaining" as choices and consequences.  Choice, eat your veggies or not.  Consequence, desert or not.  If presented to kids that they get to choose and therefore determine their consequence, with them learning that life is filled with choices and consequences, we can hope that as they grow into adults they learn to make good choices.
2013-04-02 12:11:49 AM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: You know what you could have done?  Not flown with a 3 month old.  Seriously, what the fark?



An adult should be able to ignore loud noises.  It's part of the modern world.  Sirens, construction, barking dogs, crying babies, etc.  Show some spine and stop letting crying babies bother you so much.
2013-04-02 12:05:07 AM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Not as big of a douchbag as people who try to negotiate with their screaming toddler in the middle of a restaurant.


Feel free to go find a childless society in which to live. Actually we would all be happier if your parents had done the same.

But really , kids scream, the wind blows, farts stink, and someday those kids will pay for your prostate exam. SO get over it.

But by far the most important reason that a parent says to a child....."this is your last chance" is because we are constantly looking for that moment when the child becomes sentient enough to bargain. Before that moment they just scream and you have no choice but to pacify....which encourages more screaming later, or punish....which doesnt work, or distract....which works great but most parents are so worn out they can't manage it.

Once the kids are old enough to bargain you have it made because you control all the fun stuff......

want ice cream?  eat your veggies. Want more tv time? brush your teeth. etc......

It isnt the fault of the kids or of me that some parents arent smart enough or strong enough to manage the bargaining. So you will have to get used to it.

Think of it this way, if you were really so important that you should be protected from crying children, you probably would be rich and famous and be eating in a restaurant that doesnt allow kids or in a private dining room with some VIPs

But you arent, so get over it.
2013-04-02 12:02:00 AM  
1 votes:

Doc Daneeka: I saw that article. People without kids guns really shouldn't presume to give parenting  gun control advice to anyone.  Bruni is like someone trying to give aviation tips to pilots based on the fact that he loves near an airport and sees planes flying overhead often.



 I saw that article. People without kids military experience really shouldn't presume to give parenting  war advice to anyone. Bruni is like someone trying to give aviation tips to pilots based on the fact that he loves near an airport and sees planes flying overhead often.

That works surprisingly well.
2013-04-01 11:59:18 PM  
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: Why let your kids pick out what to wear themselves? Because it doesn't really freaking matter what a young kid wears and it is an easy way  them develop self-efficacy. Why you would fight a kid over what they want to put on is the part that makes no sense.


because a hell of a lot of people are invested into the idea that every aspect of their kids lives are a reflection of them.  And yet, they usually limit this to clothing, silly crap that they shower them with and barking about grades but skip the whole "teach them good manners" thing.
2013-04-01 11:57:34 PM  
1 votes:

namegoeshere: Arthur Jumbles: namegoeshere: cptjeff: Mithiwithi: nd if an adult can't deal with a few screaming babies for a while

There's a difference between a screaming baby in an open space where people can leave and a baby screaming for 10 hours in a tightly packed tube with no possibility of escape.

It's incredibly annoying. If you cannot get your child to shut up, don't fly. I don't care how inconvenient it is for you- you don't get to make the lives of 150 other people a living hell. Short and quickly hushed outbursts won't piss too many people off. But when you let your little grub drone on like an air raid siren, it should go with the checked baggage or not at all.


Are you kidding me? Wow. It must be great to have a life that is so comfortable and easy that a child crying near you is "a living hell".

Maybe crying babies are like cilantro.... some people don't mind them much but for others their cry is like a knife through the skull. For me, the sound of a baby crying actually makes me feel pain, it is painful. Normally, it's not too much a problem because if a baby starts crying near me I just leave. But if I'm trapped on a plane with one it is like hell, the crying is like a knife, there's the hopeless feeling because you know you can't do anything to stop it from crying, and when it does stop you just spend the whole rest of the flight terrified that it's going to start up again.

I've got a great pair of headphones from Bose - the screaming just fades away into so much background noise. I highly recommend.


The kid's parents are passing them out to all the passengers?  Awesome!
2013-04-01 11:55:49 PM  
1 votes:
While 90% of that article was pure douche, as someone that's handled a classroom full of six- to eight-year-olds I'm going to have to give him his initial point of "you are an adult, when it comes to punishable situations, it is not a negotiation".

If you say, "stop that" and they don't stop, have a standard punishment and actually apply it.  Same for second offense, with a more severe punishment, and the third.  If you haven't reached "remove the kid from the activity or situation in question" as a punishment by strike three (I usually go with the first or second, since, again, classroom-full of the wee buggers) then you are officially doing it wrong.

The problem that I suspect a lot of parents have is that they seem to think that, because kids do have personalities and some things work differently on different kids, that discipline is some sort of arcane endeavor beyond their expertise and they straight give up on trying entirely, or they get into this weird cycle of trying to outsmart the little dude, who has nothing better to do with his time than to come up with new ways to tread the edge.  Have a system, stick with it, and if the kid comes up with a way to "game your system" then good for them, don't worry too much about it.  Just make sure that one of the explicit rules is that if the kid is bothering other people, you start counting strikes.

To use an accurate (but somewhat offensive to cat people) metaphor, a five-year-old is basically an untrained Labrador Retriever.  Do what you'd to do teach a hyperactive dog to shut up on command, and trust me, a kid, being smarter, will also pick it up.
2013-04-01 11:52:56 PM  
1 votes:

Pokey.Clyde: Popular Opinion: should you have to get over me taking a dump in your face?

Yeah, because that and a crying child are exactly the same thing, aren't they short bus?


again, both are caused by inconsiderate adults.
2013-04-01 11:50:22 PM  
1 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: I bet anyone dollars to doughnuts that if/when the author of TFA has kids he will do most of the things he whines about and then possibly go on to write an article about how unfriendly the world is to parents.


Cute, except then you made the bet unworkable with the word, "probably". Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you US$1000, AND I'll pay for the escrow service to hold the money, that Frank Bruni DOES NOT publish an article about how unfriendly the world is to parents in the next 10 years. I'll even agree to cancel the bet if he has no acknowledged children by April 1, 2023 but then you pay me back for the escrow fee. Deal?

I've known many people with the same attitude of TFA, including myself, and not one of them has changed as you suggest after having kids. Instead, they raised well-behaved, responsible kids.
2013-04-01 11:48:10 PM  
1 votes:

EdNortonsTwin: We were all kids once. For the whiners who dont like kids that make noise, well its an unfortunate bit of business... that your parents had any.


I think the important principle for everybody, parents and non-parents alike, is:

Be reasonable.

I think it's reasonable to deal with an infant screaming for a few minutes on an airplane because he/she is having trouble equalizing the pressure in his/her ears.  I don't think it's reasonable to have a hyperactive kid kicking the back of your seat all through an 8-hour flight to Europe.

Trouble is, there's plenty of unreasonable people out there.  Some are ultra-sensitive whiners who biatch because the olive oil in their gourmet food came from the wrong valley in France.  Some are thick-headed morons who can't seem to grasp the concept that their kid running around with a lighter and setting other peoples' clothes on fire might upset some folks.

Unfortunately, we are in a highly litigious society.  In the Good Ol' Days, unreasonable morons were tied to a rock and thrown in the nearest bog.  Nowadays, before you bog some idiot, you have to file an environmental impact statement and all that crap.  I propose creating the Politeness Gestapo whose job is to politely correct stupid, unreasonable people, perhaps with a polite nightstick on the noggin if necessary, and maybe a trip to Moron Re-Education Camp for the hard-core cases...
2013-04-01 11:38:55 PM  
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: Why let your kids pick out what to wear themselves? Because it doesn't really freaking matter what a young kid wears and it is an easy way  them develop self-efficacy. Why you would fight a kid over what they want to put on is the part that makes no sense.


I came here to say the same goddamn thing. I don't care what my kids wear, as long as it's clean. My daughter just went to the store last week in a Disney princesses t-shirt, a purple tutu, and her brother's rain boots. She was happy, and I didn't give a shiat.

Nadie_AZ: While I have no kids of my own, I have many I can (and sometimes do) lease for the weekend: 11 actual nieces and nephews, whom I'll be with this Easter Sunday, and perhaps twice that number of honorary ones. I have put in my time around tots and teens, and enjoy them. I have seen my share of parenting, and am not certain what to make of it.

Until you actually raise one or are actively raising one, your anecdotal 'I spent a Sunday holiday with them' means nothing to me or any other parent out there.

God what a horrible article.


And this too. I don't need the advice of someone who hasn't walked in those shoes. They don't know WTF they're talking about. It's not as hard as some people think, but it's not as easy as some think it is, either.
2013-04-01 11:35:05 PM  
1 votes:
We were all kids once. For the whiners who dont like kids that make noise, well its an unfortunate bit of business... that your parents had any.
2013-04-01 11:20:55 PM  
1 votes:

cs30109: Popular Opinion: there are not that many other good reasons to be flying with an infant, other than you are too selfish to give up your desires for the consideration to others.

Hmmm...I'd say allowing parents to go about their lives is more of a priority than making sure you never get a little bit annoyed.

a toddler can be entertained...learn how. something that involves the child is best.
if you are not actively attempting to entertain your child and forcing others to "deal with it", you are a shiatty ignorant parent.

Actually, as anyone who has done it could tell you, an infant is far easier to fly with than a toddler.  Toddlers need a variety of entertainment and they get *extremely* antsy being cooped up in a seat.  Young infants, especially before they can crawl, only really need to eat and sleep, and maybe a simple toy or two to look at.


you left out my entire post so it doesn't necessarily make sense,
an infant cannot enjoy disney world yet, so flying with the infant is really not necessary in most cases (my point there),
you are taking the infant because you want to go someplace.
ime, and i have taken over 20 transatlantic flights,and countless shorter ones, is that if infants want to cry, there isn't really much you can do if they are fed and changed and burped. of course sedation is an option that many resist, so if there is a bathroom available...otherwise hope it stops.

toddlers who won't sit still  haven't properly learned to fear punishment.
you don't have to ever hurt a child, and long as they believe you will if they cross the line.
2013-04-01 11:14:00 PM  
1 votes:
The best birth control in the world is--other peoples' kids.  But, seriously, I find most kids act OK in public, but those are the ones you don't really pay attention to.  It's the hellspawn from stupid parents who get noticed.

I used to know this couple who, for obvious reasons, I nicknamed Homer and Marge for their obnoxious parenting skills.  Homer and Marge would sit in a restaurant with dopey looks while their kids ran amok, grabbing other patrons' food, messing with the decor, and making life hell for the wait staff.  Worse yet, they'd leave without leaving even a dime as a tip.  Worse yet, whenever the kids were actually playing quietly, dumbass Homer would sneak up to one of the kids pretending to be a stalker, and then yell "Andy, I'm gonna kill you!!" which would leave the kid crying hysterically--yes, Homer thought this was funny.  Is it any wonder that their two sons were hyperactive hell-raisers and that the oldest one was nicknamed 'Demon'?  I haven't seen them in over 20 years, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that at least one of their two sons is institutionalized.

Another time I was on a cruise with the Parents from Hell.  These were asshole Type-A pricks who would actively encourage their three daughters, ages 6-10, to cut in front of the kids waiting in line for the water slide.  Even though this was on a huge cruise ship, everywhere you went on the boat, these hell monster kids were causing trouble.  One time, they were on top of the ship at Midnight--no parents around--and a guy admonished them for climbing around on dangerous equipment.  The three girls ran off giggling and yelling "Rape, rape, rape!", no doubt following their shiathead parents' advice to use a false rape accusation to get out of trouble.  Somehow, I picture these girls getting into serious trouble later in life with their rotten upbringing, maybe getting a teacher or boyfriend imprisoned on a false rape accusation.

And it's moronic, shiathead parents like that--admittedly a small percentage of all parents--who serve as a good argument that people should receive a license before they're allowed to breed...
2013-04-01 11:07:33 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: super_grass: Then be pissed off at your imaginary enemy elsewhere.

? I'm not particularily pissed off, but as I've cited cptjeff sounds like an entitled asshole for his stated position that kids should never get on a plane since they may cry and that is completely unacceptable. Nothing imaginary about that; read his posts.


If by read, you mean "read"...

I've stated my position pretty explicitly a couple of times, but once more: If your child can behave, nobody gives a shiat. If your child cannot behave, you, as a parent, need to realize that and be considerate of those around you.

Wow. How radical. Courtesy for the people around you.
2013-04-01 11:03:05 PM  
1 votes:
F.U. subby. If birthing crotchfruit actually gave you any insight into RAISING them, there wouldn't be so many farkin' brats on the planet.
2013-04-01 10:59:49 PM  
1 votes:

cptjeff: Surpheon: Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline.

You really don't realize how stupid this makes you sound, do you? Not every social convention is enforced by an outside body. There's no dress code police that will drum you out of the room if you show up to meet the President in jorts and a wife beater. But some of us had parents that taught us that you are expected to act in certain ways in certain settings. You know, manners. Actually, I doubt that you do.


You really don't realize how stupid you sound when you say young kids should never fly because they might cry and that is simply unacceptable to your delicate flower ears do you?
2013-04-01 10:59:14 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: super_grass: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.

Since you really do seem to be that clueless, what's appropriate to the setting has absolutely nothing to do with what the airline says. It has to do with something called "social convention". The people who make forks don't tell you where to put them, but in certain settings there are pretty strictly kept rules about how to lay a place setting anyway.

Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline. Boo-hoo, you're a delicate flower who can't deal with kids on planes. Since you clearly believe you, personally, are the center of the universe I can see how you might believe that makes it a social convention. But it's not.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/02/3-year-old-kicked-off-airplane-f or -crying/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1772347/posts
http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2013/03/18/familys_travel_nightma re _a_cautionary_tale_for_parents_flying_with_children.html

Airlines will tolerate you if you give them money, but they like everyone else have a limit. Consider yourself warned.

Wow, you can almost count on one hand the number of times it's been a problem. Asshole captains have also kicked people off for wearing too short a skirt and looking Arab. And actually I don't have a problem with kids getting kicked off if they won't sit down and get belted in. I just have a problem with the entitled assholes who say no kid under 3 should ever go ...


Then be pissed off at your imaginary enemy elsewhere.
2013-04-01 10:58:15 PM  
1 votes:

Milo Minderbinder: You say "cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young child." I read "I don't wish to be stuck in a car with my own child."


A plane ride home to my family is 3 hours.  A car ride is 24.  That would probably need to be split into 2 or 3 driving days to be tolerable for a young kid, and I normally get only a week at a time for vacation.

So no, it's not remotely practical to spend 4 days of my 7 day vacation solely on travel, and every one of those 8-12 hour driving days are going to be miserable for a toddler.  I'll take the 3 hour flight every time, even if there's a small risk that my kid might cry for a little while.

I should add that, up to now, my own kid has been pretty well behaved on flights.  We've done at least 10 flights with him, never with any solid crying---a little fussiness for 15-20 minutes or so in the worst case.  But even if I see something go very badly with other parents and their kid cries for an hour or something, I'm not going to whine about it or give them dirty looks.  People have to be able to travel with their kids, and NO, cars are NOT practical for some trips.
2013-04-01 10:57:25 PM  
1 votes:

super_grass: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.

Since you really do seem to be that clueless, what's appropriate to the setting has absolutely nothing to do with what the airline says. It has to do with something called "social convention". The people who make forks don't tell you where to put them, but in certain settings there are pretty strictly kept rules about how to lay a place setting anyway.

Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline. Boo-hoo, you're a delicate flower who can't deal with kids on planes. Since you clearly believe you, personally, are the center of the universe I can see how you might believe that makes it a social convention. But it's not.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/02/3-year-old-kicked-off-airplane-f or -crying/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1772347/posts
http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2013/03/18/familys_travel_nightma re _a_cautionary_tale_for_parents_flying_with_children.html

Airlines will tolerate you if you give them money, but they like everyone else have a limit. Consider yourself warned.


Wow, you can almost count on one hand the number of times it's been a problem. Asshole captains have also kicked people off for wearing too short a skirt and looking Arab. And actually I don't have a problem with kids getting kicked off if they won't sit down and get belted in. I just have a problem with the entitled assholes who say no kid under 3 should ever go on a plane because they may cry.
2013-04-01 10:57:23 PM  
1 votes:
Fuggin Bizzy:


I think he's trolling us though. What day is it again?
Tend to lean towards this. Either that or the Fark Admins for green lighting. Or Subby. I don't read NYT enough to know which of their staff may have an unstated sense of humor or death wish.

That said, let little kids make their clothing choices. Especially picture day at school. They'll catch on much easier than rationalization and you get great material when they hit the teenage dating scene or want that insanely expensive prom dress. It's about when to play the consequences of their choices once they are old enough to absorb the idea.  "Wait, you insisted on wearing a Shazam shirt all through middle
 school and now you want a $500 dress? Get that shirt out. Ima gonna sew it to a skirt for you instead..."


/has 3 kids and great picture day memories
2013-04-01 10:55:50 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

super_grass: So far, I have yet to see a single post advocating the banishment of all kids from airlines.

So take your strawman and don't go to restaurants or fly with them.

You didn't read the thread too closely then. There is no way to guarantee a child under 3 won't go on a screaming jag on a plane, so there's one post saying kids should be banned (there are many others). I can 95% guarantee my kids will be fine on a plane ride, but that's not good enough for some it seems. Thankfully, such intolerant snowflakes are quite in the minority and don't cause any real trouble.


Where in that post did I say kids should be banned? Before you try with the stupidity, let me make it simple. I didn't. You just suck at reading comprehension.

My argument is simple: If your kid can behave, whatever. If your kid cannot behave, do not bring said banshee into a setting where that would cause problems, like an airplane or a fancy restaurant.
2013-04-01 10:55:36 PM  
1 votes:

Milo Minderbinder: cs30109: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

Cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young kid.   Since all airlines allow kids, YOU are the one who will just have to deal with it.

Planes are for travel.  They aren't designed to provide you perfect peace and quiet towatch movies, or work on your laptop, or read books.  Those are nice diversions, but providing the perfect environment for your little activities isn't their purpose; their only purpose is to get you where you need to go.  Expecting never to be annoyed by a baby on group transportationis totally unreasonable.

You say "cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young child." I read "I don't wish to be stuck in a car with my own child."


I read that as being the time difference involved in travel methods.  Traveling cross-country in a car is a long and wearying experience if trying to get from point A to point B expeditiously.  Traveling cross-country by air is a significantly less time consuming (and still often wearying) experience.
2013-04-01 10:53:29 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: There is no way to guarantee a child under 3 won't go on a screaming jag on a plane


Then be a better parent.

Most people here will give you sympathy points even if they see you try to keep things calm. Not everyone out there is trying to "get" you breeders they just want to mind their business and hope that you will let them.
2013-04-01 10:50:38 PM  
1 votes:

Popular Opinion: there are not that many other good reasons to be flying with an infant, other than you are too selfish to give up your desires for the consideration to others.


Hmmm...I'd say allowing parents to go about their lives is more of a priority than making sure you never get a little bit annoyed.

a toddler can be entertained...learn how. something that involves the child is best.
if you are not actively attempting to entertain your child and forcing others to "deal with it", you are a shiatty ignorant parent.


Actually, as anyone who has done it could tell you, an infant is far easier to fly with than a toddler.  Toddlers need a variety of entertainment and they get *extremely* antsy being cooped up in a seat.  Young infants, especially before they can crawl, only really need to eat and sleep, and maybe a simple toy or two to look at.
2013-04-01 10:49:29 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline.


You really don't realize how stupid this makes you sound, do you? Not every social convention is enforced by an outside body. There's no dress code police that will drum you out of the room if you show up to meet the President in jorts and a wife beater. But some of us had parents that taught us that you are expected to act in certain ways in certain settings. You know, manners. Actually, I doubt that you do.
2013-04-01 10:49:26 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.

Since you really do seem to be that clueless, what's appropriate to the setting has absolutely nothing to do with what the airline says. It has to do with something called "social convention". The people who make forks don't tell you where to put them, but in certain settings there are pretty strictly kept rules about how to lay a place setting anyway.

Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline. Boo-hoo, you're a delicate flower who can't deal with kids on planes. Since you clearly believe you, personally, are the center of the universe I can see how you might believe that makes it a social convention. But it's not.


http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/02/3-year-old-kicked-off-airplane-f or -crying/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1772347/posts
http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2013/03/18/familys_travel_nightma re _a_cautionary_tale_for_parents_flying_with_children.html

Airlines will tolerate you if you give them money, but they like everyone else have a limit. Consider yourself warned.
2013-04-01 10:49:00 PM  
1 votes:
The first thing you learn about parenting is where to pick your battles.  It IS about negotiation- both of you are completely different individuals, and you have to learn how to live with each other.  If you become a dictator, your kid becomes resentful and more rebellious- if you're too lax, your kid runs all over you.  My 4-year old picks out her clothes most of the time, because I don't care if her socks don't match.  If we have to go somewhere special, then I pick out her clothes, or pick out two choices for her.  You just have to find the middle ground- and it doesn't always work, but no one is a perfect parent.

But I really should let this douche tell me what I'm doing wrong, because he seems to know everything.
2013-04-01 10:47:47 PM  
1 votes:

cs30109: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

Cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young kid.   Since all airlines allow kids, YOU are the one who will just have to deal with it.

Planes are for travel.  They aren't designed to provide you perfect peace and quiet towatch movies, or work on your laptop, or read books.  Those are nice diversions, but providing the perfect environment for your little activities isn't their purpose; their only purpose is to get you where you need to go.  Expecting never to be annoyed by a baby on group transportationis totally unreasonable.


You say "cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young child." I read "I don't wish to be stuck in a car with my own child."
2013-04-01 10:47:09 PM  
1 votes:

Milo Minderbinder: Nana's Vibrator: Milo Minderbinder: Nana's Vibrator: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

And this is why most kids who fly do behave.  I warn my kids that people such as yourself are terrible people in that you condescend in an attempt to prove yourself to be better than a toddler.  And when my kids behave better than someone such as yourself, you are proven to be worse than a child.  We all remove our top hats and monocles and have a good laugh at your expense.  But alsa, as one of us checks our pocket watch, we notice it's time for tea.

I imagine your seven naked filthy house apes are shiating all over your trailer as you type half-witicisms on fark.

I'll let that ape comment go because I don't have a profile picture, ignorant f*ck.

Who needs a picture? I know a crappy parent when I see one.


All you see is rage when your surroundings aren't whatever it is to which you think you're entitled.  Keep living that way.  Always good to have people to laugh at.
2013-04-01 10:46:44 PM  
1 votes:

cs30109: Cars are not practical for cross-country travel with a young kid.


They are perfectly practical for cross-country travel with a young kid, we did it every year for the first dozen years of our life.  They are also a lot more practical than a flying can that can't stop for a break whenever you feel it is necessary and to not punish hundreds of other people for your unwillingness to inconvenience yourself more than necessary.

Since all airlines allow kids, YOU are the one who will just have to deal with it.

Absolutely, it doesn't mean that we don't get to think people who force us to deal with it aren't shiatty.  Literally no one on this thread criticizing selfish parents has advocated changing actual rules to disallow them to do anything.
2013-04-01 10:45:11 PM  
1 votes:

cptjeff: Surpheon: cptjeff: Surpheon: The owner of the plane determines what is appropriate for the setting,

You don't have the slightest clue, do you?

Awwww, is someone unhappy that almost every airline in the world has deemed you a worthless market to cater to? (I think there is one asian airline that has banned kids in first class, but they don't fly to the US.)

You personal opinion of what is appropriate for the setting is based upon nothing but your sense of entitlement. My opinion is based upon what every airline in the United States supports.

Since you really do seem to be that clueless, what's appropriate to the setting has absolutely nothing to do with what the airline says. It has to do with something called "social convention". The people who make forks don't tell you where to put them, but in certain settings there are pretty strictly kept rules about how to lay a place setting anyway.


Your personal opinion of social convention is not shared by even a single airline. Boo-hoo, you're a delicate flower who can't deal with kids on planes. Since you clearly believe you, personally, are the center of the universe I can see how you might believe that makes it a social convention. But it's not.
2013-04-01 10:42:59 PM  
1 votes:
i think the main point is
take your kids
have fun
but if the kid starts disturbing others
act immediately to remove the child until it can remain quiet.
"deal with it."
don't force others to "deal with it".

on an airplane?
with an infant, you should be attending to some medical emergence or going to a funeral. there are not that many other good reasons to be flying with an infant, other than you are too selfish to give up your desires for the consideration to others.
a toddler can be entertained...learn how. something that involves the child is best.
if you are not actively attempting to entertain your child and forcing others to "deal with it", you are a shiatty ignorant parent.
2013-04-01 10:38:21 PM  
1 votes:
I bet anyone dollars to doughnuts that if/when the author of TFA has kids he will do most of the things he whines about and then possibly go on to write an article about how unfriendly the world is to parents.
2013-04-01 10:37:53 PM  
1 votes:
If you cant get control of your six year old, good luck when they turn 16!
2013-04-01 10:29:08 PM  
1 votes:

super_grass: Banned on the Run: super_grass: Banned on the Run: ourbigdumbmouth: If you don't have kids, you can't comment on parenting.

If you didn't serve in the armed forces, you can't have an opinion on the war how to fight a war.

This is fun an accurate analogy

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 242x209]

You have no right to judge!

When on the losing end of an argument, take it to the extreme.
Nice.

How's that extreme?

People here don't care about how you wipe you kid's ass or how you wash their hair.  They do care if you complete lose control and have them wreck havoc in cramped spaces.

Just like how we don't care what camo a solder wears, but rather how they treat the enemy or POWs.

You know, the serious things. Surely a simple analogy like that didn't go over your head.


Now I know you're just trolling.
Abuse of POW's is equivalent to child abuse, not a crying kid on a plane.
2013-04-01 10:28:48 PM  
1 votes:

Nana's Vibrator: cptjeff: cs30109: What are you supposed to do, stay home for 3 years and never fly anywhere?

See, there are these things known as "cars". They are sized so one family unit can travel in them, making whatever noises they please, without disturbing other people.

You are expected to act appropriately to the setting. If you child is not capable of acting appropriately in that setting, you should not be bringing them into that setting. Inconvenient for you? Tough. You're the one who made the decision to have the kid.

And this is why most kids who fly do behave.  I warn my kids that people such as yourself are terrible people in that you condescend in an attempt to prove yourself to be better than a toddler.  And when my kids behave better than someone such as yourself, you are proven to be worse than a child.  We all remove our top hats and monocles and have a good laugh at your expense.  But alsa, as one of us checks our pocket watch, we notice it's time for tea.


I don't have the slightest problem with kids who behave. Nobody does. If you think that making your kids behave somehow discredits my basic point of, "parents should teach their kids to behave or not bring them", you really should have your brain checked for tumors.
2013-04-01 10:27:44 PM  
1 votes:

Sensei Can You See: It's not always a simple issue, though. When my son was 3 months old I was flying to Portland from Chicago with him after a Christmas visit. To avoid him having any discomfort with his ears popping, I did what I always did: Started him on a bottle when we started taxiing. That way he would be swallowing when we took off.

But then they postponed takeoff. I stopped feeding him but when we actually took off about 20 minutes later, he didn't want any more formula. About 10 minutes later he started screaming bloody murder as the pressure changed.

He screamed and cried for about 20 minutes, then suddenly belched loudly and almost instantly fell asleep.

During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.


Sure, after all, flight delays only happen 27% of the time when departing O'Hare, so there was clearly no reason for you to plan for such an unlikely event. I'm sure that percentage was even lower during the holidays.

We were in the same situation with our 2-month-old in 1990, incidentally. WE DIDN'T FLY. So don't tell me how I don't understand.
2013-04-01 10:25:26 PM  
1 votes:

rustypouch: There's sure a lot of defensive breeders in this thread.


And apparently at least one asshole who uses the term "breeders".
2013-04-01 10:23:44 PM  
1 votes:

austin_millbarge: It can't be any worse than people with kids who love to play the "you don't know what it's like" card to anyone who doesn't have any. Congratufrkkinglations you've procreated just like a hundred billion people have before you. You're special.

/fark those people with a flaming pitchfork


THIS!

My wife wasn't able to conceive naturally and we struggled to have kids. My wife teaches preschool, we watch toddlers every Sunday and help her parents raise our two nieces. BUT, since we had not actually combined our own chromosomes, any mention of child-rearing practices would often bring a laugh and a thoughtless "you don't understand since you don't have kids".

Now that we have actual kids that we actually made with our actual floppy bits, our outlook hasn't changed and we have the same advice now as we did then. Meanwhile the shiatty parents with shiatty practices have raised bratty, entitled kids.
2013-04-01 10:22:00 PM  
1 votes:

lilplatinum: Nabb1:
You'll get over it. Well, normal people get over it.

You know whats more abnormal than people not getting over crying children in cramped confined spaces for hours at a time?  People who can't seem to get over the fact that some people find that unpleasant.


Of course it's unpleasant, but it's not a crime against humanity. Get over it. Flying sucks all around these days. TSA, overbooking, fees for everything, no peanuts. Sack up and deal with it.
2013-04-01 10:20:23 PM  
1 votes:
It's not the kids who are annoying. It's their parents.
2013-04-01 10:14:21 PM  
1 votes:

Nana's Vibrator: Milo Minderbinder: Here's a rule for all the parents out there: if the restaurant has actual silverware, keep your little ankle-biters at home. Save your crappy parenting displays for McDonalds.

That part where you grit your teeth and can't enjoy your meal...makes a parent's meal that much more enjoyable.  Get a job and go to a good restaurant, welfare boy.


That's why no one wants to be near you.
2013-04-01 10:12:00 PM  
1 votes:

Milo Minderbinder: Here's a rule for all the parents out there: if the restaurant has actual silverware, keep your little ankle-biters at home. Save your crappy parenting displays for McDonalds.


That part where you grit your teeth and can't enjoy your meal...makes a parent's meal that much more enjoyable.  Get a job and go to a good restaurant, welfare boy.
2013-04-01 10:10:28 PM  
1 votes:
Nabb1: Normal people hold grown-ups to different standards than toddlers.

I agree, one of those standards is knowing which places are appropriate to take a toddler to.
2013-04-01 10:09:43 PM  
1 votes:
It can't be any worse than people with kids who love to play the "you don't know what it's like" card to anyone who doesn't have any. Congratufrkkinglations you've procreated just like a hundred billion people have before you. You're special.

/fark those people with a flaming pitchfork
2013-04-01 10:08:47 PM  
1 votes:

skantea: I Don't have kids either, and that guy is 100% correct.


Hell, I *DO* have kids and I agree with a lot of what he said, and he didn't seem at all douchebaggy,
2013-04-01 10:08:44 PM  
1 votes:
Even though I don't have children, I am capable of knowing something about parenting.

For example, if we're on an airplane and your kid is kicking the back of my seat, responding with pleading "daddy would really like it if you stopped kicking that seat" is not going to work. And you should be able to observe that it's not working instead of just saying it over and over. And don't give me a dirty look when I get up and tell your  precious snowflake to stop kicking my seat.

Here's another example. If your child is running around the restaurant,yelling and bumping into other people's tables and then pulls down her pants and starts peeing on the floor and you don't notice because your back is turned, that's lousy parenting.

I can tell the difference between people who are trying to control their children or keep them amused and people who aren't. I'll try to help the ones that are trying. A three month-old crying baby on an airplane is annoying as anything, but I also understand that there isn't a lot you can do.

And you may be immune to your kid crying and screaming but you should still realize and understand that others aren't used to it. I volunteer at an animal shelter and occasionally someone will comment on the noise. I briefly think "what noise, what's wrong?" and then realize they're talking about the regular barking. See how that works, parents? I'm used to the noise but I understand that other people aren't.
2013-04-01 10:07:07 PM  
1 votes:

lilplatinum: Nana's Vibrator: If you don't like a toddler screaming in the restaurant - not YOUR restaurant - you should probably stay home.  Because if you can't tolerate something that has nothing to do with you, you were probably raised worse than him.  And he doesn't like intolerant jerks in his favorite restaurant.

If you replaced the word toddler with "drunk guy simulataneously belching and blasting out meat farts while blaring Nashville Country on his ipod", would you still find it unreasonable for people to find that not appropriate behavior for that environment?


Normal people hold grown-ups to different standards than toddlers.
2013-04-01 10:02:20 PM  
1 votes:
2013-04-01 10:01:49 PM  
1 votes:
My wife and I are Sunday school "teachers" for kids who can walk but aren't yet 2. There is no actual teaching (which is good since I'm not religious) since they're toddlers, but there is a routine and there is no tolerance for BAD behavior. Kids will be kids but even 1 year olds most can learn manners and that hitting and stealing are wrong.

Parents come to pick up their kids and are astounded to see 15 one year olds sitting quietly on a mat, eating snack, and politely asking for more. It's amazing how quickly kids learn that sitting and saying  "peez" or rubbing their chest (please in sign language) will earn them an animal cracker while screaming or getting up means they're done with snack. Obviously there's a learning curve where it takes a bit for the connection to be made, but DAMN if it isn't rewarding to say "SNACK TIME" and have a dozen kids instantly drop their toys and run to the corner and sit quietly to wait their turn for food.

We taught toddlers for years before we had our own. We considered this not only practice but also paying it forward to the people who would eventually watch our own crotchfruit. We saw our friends and complete strangers raising their kids and saw how the kids behaved with and without the parents. We didn't have kids of our own but we learned what works and what doesn't, at least for toddlers. GUESS WHAT? The things we said we'd do before we had kids are pretty much the same things we do now that we have them. Most of the time it works and people compliment us on our well-behaved kids.

Our only guiding principle is consistency. We don't know if what we're doing is always right, but if we say we're going to do something we follow through. If you got in trouble for something last week you will still get in trouble for it next week.
2013-04-01 10:00:43 PM  
1 votes:
I think it's funny when people say "You don't know what it's like until you have a child of your own".

That's is a complete bullshiat copout.

I used to be child. I know exactly what it's like.
2013-04-01 09:59:37 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: Sorta like how I can have an asthma attack if I'm on a plane with too many cats in the cabin


Is this a thing? Because I've flown with screamers and drunks and fatties and snort-laughers and perfumeatics and sweaty-smellies and overly-friendly-midwesterners but I don't think I've ever had a problem with too many cats in the cabin.
2013-04-01 09:56:24 PM  
1 votes:

Popular Opinion: Gwendolyn: Why let your kids pick out what to wear themselves? Because it doesn't really freaking matter what a young kid wears and it is an easy way  them develop self-efficacy. Why you would fight a kid over what they want to put on is the part that makes no sense.

if you raise your child properly, there would be no fight.
you as the parent make those decisions unless you specifically give them a choice. period.


You obviously never met a teenager or a toddler in your life.

/one teen
//two preteens
///gray hair, what's left of it
2013-04-01 09:55:52 PM  
1 votes:

cptjeff: When somebody is advocating something that benefits society at large


A child crying on an airplane does no harm to society.
2013-04-01 09:55:15 PM  
1 votes:

Cobataiwan: 3) Since all of our entitlements are based on the next generation paying for the last, perhaps we should tax extra those people who are too greedy of free time to not have children of their own to support their generation. I mean we tax rich people who are too greedy, so why not tax those who are spending more than their alottment of leisure time?


Genius, childless people do get taxed more, by not getting to claim a dependent.
2013-04-01 09:50:46 PM  
1 votes:

Banned on the Run: ourbigdumbmouth: If you don't have kids, you can't comment on parenting.

If you didn't serve in the armed forces, you can't have an opinion on the war how to fight a war.

This is fun an accurate analogy


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

You have no right to judge!
2013-04-01 09:41:15 PM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: cptjeff: Making everybody else's life a living hell because of your shortcomings does not make you a good person.

Yes because you can't be arsed to not insist the world revolve around you for a few hours.


Actually the people who are acting like the world revolves around them are the ones who are subjecting lots of other people to discomfort to make their lives more convenient. Things like airplanes and decent restaurants (or, here in the city farking bars where shiathead hipster parents decide to take their 9 month olds/fashion accessories) are not appropriate places to children, and bringing a screaming baby to one of them is a significantly different issue then, say, bringing them with you to the grocery store.
2013-04-01 09:39:48 PM  
1 votes:
I don't have children, but I do deal with them on a daily basis (teenagers during school hours and K-12 during the after-school / before dinner hours). The after-school hours are in the Children's Room at a public library.

One thing that annoys me is parents who think the Children's Room is a playground and allow their children to run, scream, and climb on the furniture, all while the parent is sitting in an armchair and updating Facebook on their phones. The parent ignores their child while he or she is destroying the room, but immediately glares at me if I remind the parent (and child) of the rules of the Children's Room. And gods forbid if the child trips while motoring around the room - it is, of course, my fault that the damn kid tripped over their own two feet.

Also frustrating is when the parents see that their kids are playing with the Library's toys ( wooden blocks, the giant Lego blocks, trains etc), see that their kids haven't cleaned up their mess ... and then leave the library. The parent doesn't ask the kid to clean up after themselves and doesn't even clean up after the kid. It's even more disgusting when the kid 'messes' on the floor, loudly declares that they made a mess ... and the parent does nothing about it. If the kid took a dump on their own living room floor, does the parent just walk around it until a 'lesser person' swoops in to clean it up?

It just amazes me how so many parents nowadays raise their kids to be rude and selfish, and how many parents expect the general population to just politely deal with it. I won't be grumpy at a kid who's screeching due to a health problem (earache, for example) or being late for a nap, and the parent is actively trying to soothe the kid; but I will be grumpy at the parents who are allowing their kid to destroy a public place by not disciplining their kid.
2013-04-01 09:39:00 PM  
1 votes:
May be a condescending urban douchebag, but not having children doesn't prevent one from knowing better than some people who do, any more than a research scientist needs to injecthimself with Drug X to study its effect on people.

It's a little thing called "observation" and, over time, it enables you to realize who the shiatty parents are, and why.
In exactly the same way that without any training whatsoever, I can tell when my doctor, tailor, mechanic, plumber, carpenter, butcher, etc. is doing something completely wrong.
I've never done it myself but I've seen it done, so now I'm an expert.
You know, it could be that we don't care what you think, you judgmental douche.
2013-04-01 09:38:29 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: Moopy Mac: So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?

No, they just have as much right as you do. I've been far more annoyed by drunk 20-somethings laughing like hyenas on a plane than a kid crying, but both have carte blanche to be their annoying selves. I don't know what your mom taught you, but mine taught me that tolerating others is part of living in society.


Wow, so much THIS.
2013-04-01 09:37:50 PM  
1 votes:
This is just one of the many situations in life where we have to try to apply the Golden Mean and find the sweet spot between two extremes. Yes, people should have a reasonable expectation not to be bothered by the misbehaviour of others' kids, but at the same time they should be forebearing when it comes to situations that the parents obviously have no control over (such as a colicky baby crying). Context is everything.
2013-04-01 09:37:19 PM  
1 votes:

Cagey B: I have a lot more sympathy for a three-month-old dealing with ear problems during a flight than I do for an overweight Aspie neckbeard whining about how they had to endure hearing something they didn't wish to for a few hours before moving on with their lives.


And THIS is what I have been meaning to say in the first place. I'm not as eloquent as you.
2013-04-01 09:36:01 PM  
1 votes:

Cagey B: I have a lot more sympathy for a three-month-old dealing with ear problems during a flight than I do for an overweight Aspie neckbeard whining about how they had to endure hearing something they didn't wish to for a few hours before moving on with their lives.


I have no problem with the 3 year old. I have major problems with the idiot adults who put it there.
2013-04-01 09:34:32 PM  
1 votes:
He's spot-on actually.

Not everyone thinks your precious snowflake is, well, precious. In my experience they're brats and if I wouldn't get arrested for it, I'd slap the shiat out of some of these "parents."
2013-04-01 09:31:43 PM  
1 votes:
Bonzo_1116:
We started an epic food fight....bowls of chocolate pudding, french fries everywhere, ketchup. I still remember the bowl of pudding winging towards my head, 35 years later. It was magnificent.

You gotta do this stuff as a kid, because it's fun, and usually illegal to do as an adult.

walkingtall:
lilplatinum: Not be a cockbag and forgoe flying with your child until it is old enough to be able to behave in public.

The person flying with a small child to be with family during the holidays isnt the cockbag. Not since that person isnt the cockbag that kind of leaves your position weak. Why I do believe YOU are the cockbag in this little tale. Yeah....Im pretty sure of it. .


www.conservativedailynews.com
2013-04-01 09:30:19 PM  
1 votes:

walkingtall: lilplatinum: Not be a cockbag and forgoe flying with your child until it is old enough to be able to behave in public.

The person flying with a small child to be with family during the holidays isnt the cockbag. Not since that person isnt the cockbag that kind of leaves your position weak. Why I do believe YOU are the cockbag in this little tale. Yeah....Im pretty sure of it. .

Actually, yes he is. If you have a captive farking audience that you are subjecting to hours of screaming because you don't want to be inconvenienced to drive somewhere for a farking holiday, then you are a selfish prick. My family drove between upstate new york and georgia every year for family shiat until we were old enough to behave ourselves during a flight, because they weren't selfish pricks who expect the rest of the world to suffer for their choices.
2013-04-01 09:29:07 PM  
1 votes:
Abortions and contraception should be free at every drug store.
Women who get abortions should receive a thank you note from the planet.
2013-04-01 09:27:57 PM  
1 votes:

cptjeff: Mithiwithi: nd if an adult can't deal with a few screaming babies for a while

There's a difference between a screaming baby in an open space where people can leave and a baby screaming for 10 hours in a tightly packed tube with no possibility of escape.

It's incredibly annoying. If you cannot get your child to shut up, don't fly. I don't care how inconvenient it is for you- you don't get to make the lives of 150 other people a living hell. Short and quickly hushed outbursts won't piss too many people off. But when you let your little grub drone on like an air raid siren, it should go with the checked baggage or not at all.

Here's the thing: your kid may be the most precious thing on the planet to you. But only to you. Think about it this way: if somebody bought a dog on board that seemed physically incapable of not barking, would you say that everybody else on the flight should suck it up? No, you'd be rooting for the plane to land and for the dog and its owner to be offloaded somewhere in rural kansas. That's how we feel about your kid. And you.


No, most people have an ounce of decency and aren't self-absorbed narcissists who think an upset child is the same as a dog. No parent wants their kid to have a meltdown on a plane. It's stressful as hell. But the world doesn't revolve around you. Regardless of what you were told as a child, there is no right to not be inconvenienced every once in a while.
2013-04-01 09:27:39 PM  
1 votes:
It sucks that small children are on airplanes, but they have to travel once in a while, just like fat people, those who don't shower frequently enough, and certain minorities.  So learn to be considerate and know that there has to be a compromise between the right to travel and the right to travel comfortably.

You have to share the world with others, deal with it.
2013-04-01 09:27:01 PM  
1 votes:
Meh. Most of that was pretty spot on.

I've never been a suicide bomber either. Is it okay if I opine about terrorism or do I have to STFU until I strap on a vest?
2013-04-01 09:26:15 PM  
1 votes:

Cobataiwan: Rules for dealing with children in public places:

1) You used to be a kid too, and probably bothered people. This is part of life.

2) It helps to imagine that screaming kid as the doctor who cures your cancer or be paying for your retirement.

3) Since all of our entitlements are based on the next generation paying for the last, perhaps we should tax extra those people who are too greedy of free time to not have children of their own to support their generation. I mean we tax rich people who are too greedy, so why not tax those who are spending more than their alottment of leisure time? use industrial diamond manufacturing technology to compress the next generation into 20 carat diamonds to sell to the highest international bidder, thereby financing everything baby boomers desire while bringing new meaning to the term "blood diamonds" and solving overpopulation issues overnight.


FTFY
2013-04-01 09:21:58 PM  
1 votes:
There's a major difference between saying "that lady whose kid is screaming in the next aisle must be a sh*tty parent" and "helicopter parenting does not seem like a good way to turn out healthy, functional adults."

Even though I don't have kids, I feel like it's okay to express the latter.
2013-04-01 09:21:17 PM  
1 votes:

KiwDaWabbit: Babbs: You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.

I don't have children, but would agree with you on your point that you can't fully understand an experience until you experience it for yourself. In some ways, a person without a child giving a person with a child parenting advice is akin getting sex advice from a virgin.

However, as others have pointed out, you don't have to experience something to learn some lessons from others' misfortunes during said experience. If that experience is shooting heroin, you might not have to be an information recipient or even a spectator for long before you decide that it's not for you. Getting back to the topic at hand, even people who don't have children have some type of idea how they would raise children. But, as the saying goes "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." There are just so many variables with having and raising children, from congenital issues to disposition, you can't know for sure what you're going to deal with, both good and bad...a lot of unpredictability.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the author, as he comes off as pompous to me, but it is also amusing to me just how much ire he is drawing out. That type of reaction tells me that he has some valid points. Maybe it will make some people sit back and reflect a little bit, which is never a bad thing.


And actually, I totally agree with you. But the ONE thing people don't understand when they don't have kids (and I know those of you with kids will agree with me on this) is that damn primitive protective instinct. One really has to overcome that to be a good parent. I've seen too many parents afraid to discipline their kids for fear they are going to scar them for life...I know that sounds weird, but so true. As a parent, it's something you really have to teach yourself to overcome and realize disciplining your kids is actually doing them a favor. You, them and society.
2013-04-01 09:19:20 PM  
1 votes:

Sensei Can You See: GAT_00: Most of the time, I really don't give a shiat about your kid.  But if they're being a screaming little shiat while I'm trying to eat, or running around a store while you ignore them, there it very much is my interest how you are raising your kid.

It's one thing to ignore them, and I agree with you on that point.

It's not always a simple issue, though. When my son was 3 months old I was flying to Portland from Chicago with him after a Christmas visit. To avoid him having any discomfort with his ears popping, I did what I always did: Started him on a bottle when we started taxiing. That way he would be swallowing when we took off.

But then they postponed takeoff. I stopped feeding him but when we actually took off about 20 minutes later, he didn't want any more formula. About 10 minutes later he started screaming bloody murder as the pressure changed.

He screamed and cried for about 20 minutes, then suddenly belched loudly and almost instantly fell asleep.

During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.


I'm not sure how you could read that article and think it had anything to do with 3 month children. Or how you could not read that article, and then think you had something relevant to add.
2013-04-01 09:18:39 PM  
1 votes:

Steve Zodiac: As children we weren't taken into a sitdown restaurant until we had proven we would not scream and fight and run around. Not saying that I and my siblings were angels at the restaurant, because we weren't but my parents weren't the empty threat kind. You got your one warning before you went into the restaurant, and anything after that meant banishment out to the car with a parent who was p*ssed that they were missing one of the few nights out to a restaurant that my family could afford to take. I don't think any of us kids ever left more than once. You don't need to beat a child, but your threats can't be empty, either.


YES THIS!!
2013-04-01 09:17:45 PM  
1 votes:
This thread is the usual turd-snorkeling mess.
2013-04-01 09:11:14 PM  
1 votes:

Techhell: "Will you shut that kid up?"


I wouldn't say that -- I'm not a rude asshole, because my parents raised me not to be one.

However, if someone is advocating, say, not vaccinating their children, the fact that I don't have kids doesn't mean I can't judge them for their poor parenting skills.

That was a lot of negatives in one sentence.
2013-04-01 09:08:08 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.

[shrug] Yeah, but do you really know how those parents discipline their kids, what's going on in that home, what's going on on that day, etc.? You see a kid having a screaming meltdown in the middle of the grocery aisle and mom just standing there (it seems) and you think or even say "Goddamn, what a horrible child/mother! She just lets her kid scream at the top of his lungs and doesn't even care about all the other customers!" Of course, you have no way of knowing, and don't care to find out, that she's been in the store for 30 seconds, that the child  has a massive ear infection, and she's stopped in to pick up the prescription for amoxicillin to cure said earache. No, you made instant connection: screaming kid=bad mom, passed your judgement and went on. Was she supposed to leave the kid in the car? That's illegal these days.

This is why people who lack kids shouldn't really be telling people with them how to raise their children. What you the childless see as a one-time awful display of revolting undisciplined behavior may or may not be anything unusual to the parent. Or may be a kid who is sick. Or may be a parent who is sick (life is fun when you can't afford day care). Or it may just be nap time; as any parent could tell you, kids go from calm & rational to cranky & impossible in about .25 seconds when nap time hits. But YOU didn't know that, did you, Mr. I-don't-have-kids?

Maybe those without kids should STFU and save their outrage for kids who really do have bad parents and show up to school with bruises on their legs, or no lunch for a week, or whose parents can't be bothered to come to parent-teacher conferences. Oh, and I have no children either, ...


I'm not advocating judging on one-time observations, necessarily (although if a parent makes a statement about their child-rearing philosophy, eg. "we don't tell Timmy how to behave" it might be possible) but I do know parents and can see them interact with their children repeatedly. I can't play football, but I know a sh*tty player when I see one.
2013-04-01 09:07:17 PM  
1 votes:
Sensei Can You See:
During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

Don't you understand?  You and your crotch goblin should take the breeders-only train and leave the airplane to decent normal folks.  Nobody wants to see or hear your drunken genetic accident when they have wonderful Rick Moranis movies to watch on a 3" screen, and stale pretzels to eat.

/very much sarcasm, in case you hadn't guessed by now

GAT_00:
You know what you could have done? Not flown with a 3 month old. Seriously, what the fark?

Aaaand then there's you.  Sometimes people have to go places, you twit.  Besides, that airplane baby is only saying what we're all feeling.
2013-04-01 09:06:48 PM  
1 votes:

Albinoman: You don't have to be a musician to know bad music just like you don't have to be a parent to know that someone is doing it wrong.


Absolutely 100% THIS.


And all the upset and butthurt people here saying 'until you've done it you can't have an opinion' are idiots.

Your kids are little tyrants. You're trying to negotiate with a 4 year old?
How farking stupid are you?
You'd rather give your kid an iPad to keep them quiet in a restaurant than acclimating them to societal norms about public behavior?
You're an idiot.
You think every thing your kid does is perfect and when she is flunking out of college it's some how the University's fault?
You've spent years being a shiatty parent.

Stop getting upset at having it pointed out to you because your angry simply proves how much you screwed up raising your kids.
2013-04-01 09:06:17 PM  
1 votes:
It also pains me that FARK has no edit capabilities once you hit Add Comment. about about about. Grr.
2013-04-01 09:05:49 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: kxs401: People without children are still affected by how you raise them, and are going to have opinions. We have an interest, because we have to share the world with your kids. Someday, they're going to be our fellow citizens, our coworkers, and possibly, our perpetrators. We really want you to do a good job.

[shrug] Yeah, but do you really know how those parents discipline their kids, what's going on in that home, what's going on on that day, etc.? You see a kid having a screaming meltdown in the middle of the grocery aisle and mom just standing there (it seems) and you think or even say "Goddamn, what a horrible child/mother! She just lets her kid scream at the top of his lungs and doesn't even care about all the other customers!" Of course, you have no way of knowing, and don't care to find out, that she's been in the store for 30 seconds, that the child  has a massive ear infection, and she's stopped in to pick up the prescription for amoxicillin to cure said earache. No, you made instant connection: screaming kid=bad mom, passed your judgement and went on. Was she supposed to leave the kid in the car? That's illegal these days.

This is why people who lack kids shouldn't really be telling people with them how to raise their children. What you the childless see as a one-time awful display of revolting undisciplined behavior may or may not be anything unusual to the parent. Or may be a kid who is sick. Or may be a parent who is sick (life is fun when you can't afford day care). Or it may just be nap time; as any parent could tell you, kids go from calm & rational to cranky & impossible in about .25 seconds when nap time hits. But YOU didn't know that, did you, Mr. I-don't-have-kids?

Maybe those without kids should STFU and save their outrage for kids who really do have bad parents and show up to school with bruises on their legs, or no lunch for a week, or whose parents can't be bothered to come to parent-teacher conferences. Oh, and I have no children either, ...


A-f*cking-men.
2013-04-01 09:05:18 PM  
1 votes:
Most people suck at parenting. My 3 yr old is scared of me; that's how I role.
2013-04-01 09:05:02 PM  
1 votes:

Surpheon: Moopy Mac: So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?

No, they just have as much right as you do. I've been far more annoyed by drunk 20-somethings laughing like hyenas on a plane than a kid crying, but both have carte blanche to be their annoying selves. I don't know what your mom taught you, but mine taught me that tolerating others is part of living in society.


So now we are to the point that we need to tolerate the inappropriate behavior of others (drunk annoying 20 year old or crappy parenting)? Interesting concept of tolerance. I'm sure you apply it evenly.
2013-04-01 09:04:44 PM  
1 votes:
farm4.staticflickr.com
2013-04-01 09:04:37 PM  
1 votes:

Mithiwithi: And if an adult can't deal with a few screaming babies for a while, maybe <i>they're</i> the ones not mature enough to go on a long plane ride.


To be fair to my mother who suffers from chronic cluster headaches, screaming babies on a plane can be a nightmare. For me, I do not mind one iota, but I will say some adults, a small subset, cannot deal with screaming babies. The rest of them, I agree with you; if you are an adult who has only aggravation to spout, take a f*cking car.
2013-04-01 09:04:18 PM  
1 votes:
My Dad knew a guy who had lost his arm in a construction accident. Any time we got out of line and needed a lesson, he'd stage some elaborate scene where the guy would "lose" his arm. Fake blood, prosthetic arm yanked/ smashed off, etc. Scared the hell out of us but we learned some really valuable lessons.

Always leave a note.
2013-04-01 09:02:32 PM  
1 votes:

Babbs: Moopy Mac: Babbs: You don't know shiat about parenting until you have one. Period. And all you assholes that say "How your kid wouldn't do this and that" are full of shiat. I had a friend who liked to tell me how to raise my toddlers before she had kids. I laugh at her now because she has 3 of the most god awfully behaved kids that ever walked the face of the earth. It's like karma. So shut your mouths about how other people parent their kids before you have 'em, because I've seen this happen over and over.

So in other words, your kids have carte blanche to annoy others?

Did I say that? No. I just said that people that judge people with kids about how they are raising them should really try to be a little understanding, because when the time comes, they will be in the exact situations. No kids are perfect. Even the best ones act like assholes in public once in a while.

/ And my kids are grown now. And they both hate kids.


You said that people without kids don't know shiat about parenting. This means you believe they should not criticize your parenting. The next logical step is that they should not criticize the actions of your children which are caused by your parenting. How is that a leap from what you said originally?
2013-04-01 09:01:25 PM  
1 votes:
Those of us without kids don't notice well behaved kids, just like we don't notice well behaved adults.  Just like you nice the one nail sticking out of the deck we notice the kid making s a scene.
2013-04-01 09:00:32 PM  
1 votes:

Kittypie070: So this witless lazy crap is all you gotta do to get a green in this joint??

A cheap shot lazy headline and a cheap shot lazy article?


It's more than you did.
2013-04-01 08:59:02 PM  
1 votes:

Nadie_AZ: Sensei Can You See: During the screaming, though, I got lots of nasty looks from other passengers. Well, what the hell was I supposed to do? I wasn't ignoring him; I was comforting him and trying to get him to take some formula. But you can't spank a 3-month-old for bad behavior.

I'm a parent. I've been through a lot of sleepless nights, endless days of tooth aches, colic, asthma attacks. It is so hard sometimes. And when I see kids crying, I feel for the parents as much as anything else- of course I would rather a quiet plane ride or dinner experience- but god dammit- children are going to cry. They are going to be in pain, they are going to surprise you when you least expect it. And for other people to sit there and be assholes with their looks and groans, yeah that sucks.


I agree. I don't have kids, so I'm not accustomed to all the screaming/crying etc...but I never give a dirty look to a parent. Parents are making great sacrifices that will benefit the community and all of humanity. People without kids need to suck it up and instead of complaining about being inconvenienced, be appreciative that others are raising up the next generation...which you will most likely depend on.
2013-04-01 08:57:09 PM  
1 votes:
To note, having children does not mean you know anything about how to raise children. Does not mean those without children therefore have equal footing, but parents are not to be free from criticisms.

As to the author, I have never seen this "everybody has to be a winner" cause the type of personality people seem to complain of. Parent entitlement mentalities (not a political reference) is the cause; children know of authentic versus artificial wins, and children draw from vicarious experiences of parents. To regain some sanity and temporary reprieve, parents have always given control in the short term to children. What is amusing is he then ventures to say children become who they will become.

For those blasting him, read to the second page where he tells parents to worry less about the minor decisions.
2013-04-01 08:52:56 PM  
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: Why let your kids pick out what to wear themselves? Because it doesn't really freaking matter what a young kid wears and it is an easy way  them develop self-efficacy. Why you would fight a kid over what they want to put on is the part that makes no sense.


That was one of the glaring things in the article that grabbed me.  "Why all the choices - "What would you like to wear?"- and all the negotiating and the painstakingly calibrated diplomacy? "  Giving children choices is essential to learning and growing up.  Good and bad consequences come from the choices we make.  Teaching children this one element is critical and the sooner they start learning about it, the better.
2013-04-01 08:51:49 PM  
1 votes:

treecologist: I must go to the right restaurants - I never hear or see screaming kids. How often does this really happen, and is it worth biatching about? My family and I eat out once a week, on a average, and screaming kids are never part of the equation.


It hasn't happened to me often, but a few years ago I was in a restaurant and the parents were having after dinner coffee with another couple.  Three friends and I were the only other people in that section of the restaurant, which was a lowered area on the other side of the kitchen from the main part of the restaurant.  Their three kids were running around the section, climbing on chairs, running across the tops of tables, climbing over booths.  At one point one of the kids started emptying a ketchup bottle on a table and then poured an entire shaker of salt on it.  The parents never batted an eye.

I still don't know why the people running the restaurant didn't say anything, but my friends and I put up with it for about ten minutes, saw that it wasn't going to get any better, and left.

I've seen kids wailing and being ornery, but that was the single worst bit of acting out I've ever witnessed.
2013-04-01 08:47:55 PM  
1 votes:
Subby said it best nothing else to say.
2013-04-01 08:43:20 PM  
1 votes:
Had a coworker who had a young teenage daughter (13 or 14 at the time) and every summer the girl got to dye her hair whatever color she wanted (it was super bright pink when I first met her).  But, it had to go back to her natural color before school started.  Sounds like a pretty cool parent to me.
2013-04-01 08:41:32 PM  
1 votes:
Tips for Waitress.
Screaming kids running about?
Well just advise their parents of all that hot coffee that you carry and it sure would be a shame if their little shiats were to run into you and get all burny.


child like standing on the seats and staring down the next booth?
The next booth can start talking loudly as you snap a photo(pretend or be a perv) of the little one and how the website spoiled little shiatheads will love the photo of the kid.
Caution: May contain death threats from the little turds parents.
Or if you are eating dessert? Oh the temptation as you hover the dessert near their little faces and just out of their reach.
2013-04-01 08:40:15 PM  
1 votes:
Cousin's wedding.  Flower girl was 2.5 years old.  She wasn't cooperating.

Daddy's response, when the usher charged with making sure she did her job walked up with the screaming kid: "Just reason with her."

It did not go well.
2013-04-01 08:29:19 PM  
1 votes:
Christ, what an asshole.
2013-04-01 08:20:32 PM  
1 votes:
i105.photobucket.com
2013-04-01 08:19:51 PM  
1 votes:
i105.photobucket.com
2013-04-01 08:01:29 PM  
1 votes:
Just face it, children are evil.

i105.photobucket.com
 
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