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(Yahoo)   NY Times admits that, in retrospect, it might have been a wee bit sexist for them to lead off the obituary of a brilliant rocket scientists and National Technology Medal winner with a description of what a great cook and homemaker she was   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 147
    More: Obvious, prompt corner, National Medal of Technology, obituary, descriptions, NYT  
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5796 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Apr 2013 at 11:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-01 04:13:59 PM

Man On Pink Corner: ProfessorOhki: Your evaluation presupposes that scientists are more important than cooks; check your privilege.

Can't eat science.


Apparently, you don't know the same scientists I do.
 
2013-04-01 04:15:19 PM

buckler: Man On Pink Corner: ProfessorOhki: Your evaluation presupposes that scientists are more important than cooks; check your privilege.

Can't eat science.

Apparently, you don't know the same scientists I do.


Cooking is artful, baking is scientific. MmMm... cookie experiments.

/sounding fat, FTW.
 
2013-04-01 04:17:49 PM

Mattoon: itsdan: staplermofo: Can we praise a women without taking petty jabs at men?

I think the proper response to this is "lol fragile male ego!"

So if a man points out the blatant sexism against men in an article, he has a "fragile male ego"?  In the interests of gender equality, from this point on, any woman who points out possible sexism against women in an article must have a "lol fragile female ego".  Otherwise, a double standard exists, and we don't support sexism, do we?


You totally have a fragile male ego.  Let it go.
 
2013-04-01 04:18:24 PM
"you just have to be cheerful and not get upset about it" she once said.
 
2013-04-01 04:37:41 PM
BURN YOUR APRONS!
 
2013-04-01 04:44:19 PM

staplermofo: It's an obituary, not a biography.
The offensive part is "The article went on to suggest that it took two men to create an adhesive stationery but only one woman to figure out how to keep satellites in place."
Can we praise a women without taking petty jabs at men?  Screw you Post-It Note guys, a woman did rocket science.  Classy.


I thought Romy and Michelle invented Post-it Notes.

They're the ones who realized that although ordinarily when you make glue first you need to thermoset your resin and then after it cools you have to mix in an epoxide, which is really just a fancy-schmancy name for any simple oxygenated adhesive, right? And then they thought maybe, just maybe, you could raise the viscosity by adding a complex glucose derivative during the emulsification process.

It turned out they were right.
 
2013-04-01 04:55:21 PM

Graffito: JackieRabbit: The whole thing is beyond silly. Time to grow up, whiney America!
 
You're a straight white male, aren't you?


Yep. Feel free to bash and belittle him at every turn.

cause you know. Its ok when you direct it at straight white guys. They're pure evi
 
2013-04-01 04:56:23 PM

Ponzholio: If they truly want to make amends, they should post her beef stroganoff recipe...


Yes. I cooked and baked for decades
and I used geometry, calculus, algebra, physics, and a lot of science to be good at what I did.
I can tell a lot about a person by their recipes,
Is she a nutmeg in the sour cream person?
Or one of those who only uses Pennsylvania Brand Dutch Noodles, and a can of cream of mushroom and a can of beef gravy?
Or does she use hamburger or choice cuts, sauteed in garlic oil before deglazing the pan and making a proper gravy
 
2013-04-01 04:56:23 PM

IrishFarmer: Graffito: You're a straight, white, cis-gendered, heteronormative male who never experiences microaggressions, aren't you?

And you're a 20-something, middle class white female, aren't you?  Look, if stereotyping people is a bad thing, then it's always a bad thing.  Don't just pick and choose.

Also, you missed a few labels to apply to the other poster, but fortunately I was able to add them back into your quotes.

A slight pet peeve of mine:  The NYT article was (probably) not sexism.  I didn't read the original form, but if we're going to use words like sexism and racism this way, then they just lose all meaning.  Sexism is hatred or mistrust of a person based on whether they're male or female.  That definition does not include, "failure to write an article in line with an ideological script."

Cheapening the word just makes actually sexism all the harder to spot.


Brilliant, incisive, accurate. The internet could do with more of this.

Even more amazing that it came from a drunken potato-sucking peasant.
 
2013-04-01 04:58:24 PM

Lumpmoose: Besides the saccharine folksiness, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with starting the article like that.  But it shows the NYT is tone deaf to decades of women fighting to get more representation in STEM fields.


Nonsense the shrieking harpies just like to undervalue the skills of homemaking and cooking; both of which are in short supply.
 
2013-04-01 04:58:51 PM

trappedspirit: BURN YOUR APRONS!


I set my pot holder on fire last week... while I was wearing it. It doesn't mean I'm bad in the kitchen though, I swear.
 
2013-04-01 05:09:24 PM

minoridiot: I met her back in 1989.  The one thing that really remember about her was that she had tuck her shirt into her underwear which was showing about 1" above her waistline.


1.647 inches, actually
 
2013-04-01 05:15:20 PM

Magorn: Amateur violinist, husband, and father of two Albert Eistein has passed away, he was also considered by some to be an accomplished physcist,

Father of two and star of his familiy's annual Thanksgiving Day touch football game, John F. Kennedy passed away in Dallas after a very short illness, he was also briefly President of the United States from 1960-1963

Local Businessman and former University of Cleveland Engineering Professor Neil Armstrong has passed away, he is survived by a wife and son, who will miss his gardening and landscaping skills.  He was also  a commissioned officer in the Navy, and a Korean war vet, who also is credited with doing some pioneering aerospace work while employed by NASA in the late 1960's



...can I hire you to write my obit?
 
2013-04-01 05:16:09 PM

vicioushobbit: hitlersbrain: Yes... but then what isn't sexist today?

/ I'd really like to know.

Potatoes.


Wrong. They will grope you with their eyes.
 
2013-04-01 05:20:31 PM
Valiente: Well, she was no Werner von Braun, but who among us is?

Don't say that he's hypocritical, say rather that he's apolitical.
 
2013-04-01 05:23:46 PM
the obituary of a brilliant rocket scientists   ... so, she has/had a twin ?
 
2013-04-01 05:24:19 PM

yourmomlovestetris: You hear that housewives of America? All of that hard work you put into making a home and raising children means nothing, NOTHING to the health and well being of the future of America! Only work that's OUTSIDE the home matters in the great scheme of things!

Signed, Feminists of America

 Someone who wouldn't recognize an actual feminist if she throttled him with a burning bra.

FTFY
 
2013-04-01 05:26:57 PM

Man On Pink Corner: ProfessorOhki: Your evaluation presupposes that scientists are more important than cooks; check your privilege.

Can't eat science.


I'm going to gently point out that you are very mistaken.  Unless my sarcasm detector is broken, in which case I award you one of these.
 
2013-04-01 05:28:26 PM

ProfessorOhki: Feynman's NYT obit (though not leading with it)...



Surely You're Joking, ProfessorOhki!
 
2013-04-01 05:31:43 PM

PunGent: aerojockey: Really, her signature dish is beef stroganoff?  Come on, male scientists and engineers would be ashamed to admit we even cook that garbage let alone it being our best dish.  A male engineer would be cooking cool stuff like sushi or New England clam chowder or tiramisou.  Women still have a long way to go.

Is this sarcasm?

I like sushi, but if I had to quit either sushi or stroganoff for the rest of my life, the fish could rest a little easier...chowder or tiramisou over either, however.


Ceviche would like to have a word with you.  A yummy, yummy word.
 
2013-04-01 05:34:39 PM

Egoy3k: Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Maybe because they weren't any good at being husbands or fathers at the same time as they were good scientists or whatever their noteworthy career accomplishments were. This woman could do it - be a good mom and a good scientist. Why can't we talk about it? Why can't we say she still had a good career while having children? Its not an unremarkable thing to say, "she was a great mom, too."

But it's not "she was a good mom, too."  It's "She was a good mom. Also, she had a remarkable career."

Only in a warped mind would being a good parent to the people that you are responsible for bringing into the world and raising as good people count as a minor footnote.



On some level, I agree with you.

But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.
 
2013-04-01 05:45:27 PM

ciberido: Egoy3k: Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Maybe because they weren't any good at being husbands or fathers at the same time as they were good scientists or whatever their noteworthy career accomplishments were. This woman could do it - be a good mom and a good scientist. Why can't we talk about it? Why can't we say she still had a good career while having children? Its not an unremarkable thing to say, "she was a great mom, too."

But it's not "she was a good mom, too."  It's "She was a good mom. Also, she had a remarkable career."

Only in a warped mind would being a good parent to the people that you are responsible for bringing into the world and raising as good people count as a minor footnote.


On some level, I agree with you.

But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.


As has been pointed out this was an Obit not a bio. Maybe, just maybe, being a good homemaker and cook for her family were more important to her than the rocket science and what she wanted to be remember for most.
 
2013-04-01 06:01:19 PM

ciberido: Egoy3k: Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Maybe because they weren't any good at being husbands or fathers at the same time as they were good scientists or whatever their noteworthy career accomplishments were. This woman could do it - be a good mom and a good scientist. Why can't we talk about it? Why can't we say she still had a good career while having children? Its not an unremarkable thing to say, "she was a great mom, too."

But it's not "she was a good mom, too."  It's "She was a good mom. Also, she had a remarkable career."

Only in a warped mind would being a good parent to the people that you are responsible for bringing into the world and raising as good people count as a minor footnote.


On some level, I agree with you.

But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.


I want to know what Caesar would have been good at cooking. I don't anticipate he was a type to get in the kitchen, but if he did, that would be awesome to learn. I would want to know if he was a fast runner or was good at some other athletic type endeavor...
 
2013-04-01 06:15:07 PM

ciberido: Egoy3k: Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Maybe because they weren't any good at being husbands or fathers at the same time as they were good scientists or whatever their noteworthy career accomplishments were. This woman could do it - be a good mom and a good scientist. Why can't we talk about it? Why can't we say she still had a good career while having children? Its not an unremarkable thing to say, "she was a great mom, too."

But it's not "she was a good mom, too."  It's "She was a good mom. Also, she had a remarkable career."

Only in a warped mind would being a good parent to the people that you are responsible for bringing into the world and raising as good people count as a minor footnote.


On some level, I agree with you.

But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.


He's well known for his contributions in the field of salad.
 
2013-04-01 06:16:53 PM

ciberido: But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.


Why not? He made a mean salad.
 
2013-04-01 06:19:05 PM

hasty ambush: Maybe, just maybe, being a good homemaker and cook for her family were more important to her than the rocket science and what she wanted to be remember for most.


True, it seems pretty clear that nobody cares about what she would have wanted.

Occasionally, peoples' family life is more important to them than their creative or scientific pursuits.  I don't quite understand that sentiment myself, because it would seem to put humans on the same cultural level as lesser primates.  But I know that many others, perhaps a vast majority, disagree with me.

If her children/grandchildren had a chance to sign off on the obituary, which was probably the case, then it's a non-issue.  Only they can say what she would have wanted people to remember her for.
 
2013-04-01 06:21:06 PM

This text is now purple: ciberido: But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.

Why not? He made a mean salad.


And the drinks he made with citrus areamazing.
 
2013-04-01 06:43:14 PM

PunGent: The dictionary definition is broader than "hatred or mistrust" and includes gender-based "devaluation"; which putting her cooking above her science arguably does.


In what way?

Her work as a scientist certainly had benefits, the scope of which are debatable. Being a good mother? That benefits the entire species.

Why do you insist that the latter is worth less than the former?
 
2013-04-01 06:56:40 PM
All of her accomplishments are important for a complete picture of who she was.  I'm all for equality and as a woman who excelled in math and science but never regrettably pursued that path, I admire her accomplishments, but let's stop being ridiculous about every little imagined slight.
 
2013-04-01 07:10:00 PM

This text is now purple: ciberido: But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.

Why not? He made a mean salad.


My work here is done.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-01 07:22:48 PM

rumpelstiltskin: What else are they supposed to lead off with? She sure wasn't a looker.


Uh, watch the you-tube vid of her speaking about her work. It shows her in her college years.

/would you have hit it? yes, yes you would have.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-01 07:27:31 PM

ChipNASA: SAMMICHES!

 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-01 07:29:09 PM

gja: ChipNASA: SAMMICHES!


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-01 07:31:07 PM

Magorn: Well, to be fair her beef stroganoff recipie involved pre-browning the meat by subjecting it to a three second thruster burn of an LOX booster


WUT?
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-01 07:46:49 PM

ProfessorOhki: But on another level, when I read a biography of Julius Ceaser, I don't expect the first chapter to be about his accomplishments in the kitchen.

He's well known for his contributions in the field of salad.


And cutlery. And sections.
 
2013-04-01 08:57:56 PM
Renaissance woman.
 
2013-04-01 09:46:20 PM
I didn't know Adria Richards was a farker
 
2013-04-01 10:01:47 PM
I do not have a problem with the obit beginning with her home life. If she was anything like me, my two children are the reason I work so hard. I want them to see that a fulfilling life takes place in the kitchen and at work. I would not have an issue with my obit beginning that "Many of Shakespeare's Sister's coworkers loved her home-made chicken Parmesan and brownies." It would be good to know that I was not boxed into the corner of English professor, but rather seen an more than my education and accomplishments at work.
 
2013-04-01 10:53:32 PM

Shakespeare's Sister: I do not have a problem with the obit beginning with her home life. If she was anything like me, my two children are the reason I work so hard. I want them to see that a fulfilling life takes place in the kitchen and at work. I would not have an issue with my obit beginning that "Many of Shakespeare's Sister's coworkers loved her home-made chicken Parmesan and brownies." It would be good to know that I was not boxed into the corner of English professor, but rather seen an more than my education and accomplishments at work.


You monster!
 
2013-04-01 10:55:21 PM
Wait... Chicken parmesan, and also brownies... I guess that is okay.

I assumed that was one thing. And if it actually was,  you monster!
 
2013-04-02 01:53:31 AM

Molavian: So women can't be brilliant and cook?

Good to know.


Of course they can.  And that obit would have been fine, if any male obit was written the same way.  But they never are.

She isn't notable for being a good cook.  Lots of women (and men) are.  Lots of women (and men) are good home makers.  Very few are rocket scientists.  That's why she rates an obit like this in the first place.

If this same obit was being written for a man, do you think his achievements in the field he was actually famous for would be relegated to second paragraph status?  You think when Brian Cox dies, they'll start his obit with "He baked a mean soufflé, did a good job cleaning the bathroom every second week, oh and by the way, he was a brilliant scientist, too."?


In the same way it would be fine to ask a leading businesswoman about her plans to have children or how she balances her family with her work if they ever asked leading businessmen the same questions.  No one badgers the men in articles for Forbes about if they plan to spawn.

It's not the approach that's wrong, it's that the approach emphasising "home" over "vocational achievements" is never placed on men, not even on men in "home" professions like chefs.
 
2013-04-02 03:52:49 AM
How was she in the bedroom?
 
2013-04-02 07:20:33 AM

if_i_really_have_to: In the same way it would be fine to ask a leading businesswoman about her plans to have children or how she balances her family with her work if they ever asked leading businessmen the same questions. No one badgers the men in articles for Forbes about if they plan to spawn.


Running a large company times a lot of commitment, long hours weekends, constant connection to the office and a level head. Having a a CEO who might become hormonally unbalanced, disappear for a few months, and be unable to put in the same amount of time when she returns is is worth knowing.

I'm well aware that this is going to go over about as well as a lead balloon but please be honest, do you really think the professional repercussions of having a child are the same for men as they are for women?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-04-02 09:32:05 AM

Egoy3k: if_i_really_have_to: In the same way it would be fine to ask a leading businesswoman about her plans to have children or how she balances her family with her work if they ever asked leading businessmen the same questions. No one badgers the men in articles for Forbes about if they plan to spawn.

Running a large company times a lot of commitment, long hours weekends, constant connection to the office and a level head. Having a a CEO who might become hormonally unbalanced, disappear for a few months, and be unable to put in the same amount of time when she returns is is worth knowing.

I'm well aware that this is going to go over about as well as a lead balloon but please be honest, do you really think the professional repercussions of having a child are the same for men as they are for women?


FYI, at THAT level there are usually nannies/nurses/sitters involved. Those women tend to pass off the daily mundane stuff to others because....they can.
They have the money and position, generally, to not have to deal with diapers and stuff. And as for the "hormonally unbalanced" bit, well meds take care of that usually.
 
2013-04-02 09:52:03 AM

gja: Egoy3k: if_i_really_have_to: In the same way it would be fine to ask a leading businesswoman about her plans to have children or how she balances her family with her work if they ever asked leading businessmen the same questions. No one badgers the men in articles for Forbes about if they plan to spawn.

Running a large company times a lot of commitment, long hours weekends, constant connection to the office and a level head. Having a a CEO who might become hormonally unbalanced, disappear for a few months, and be unable to put in the same amount of time when she returns is is worth knowing.

I'm well aware that this is going to go over about as well as a lead balloon but please be honest, do you really think the professional repercussions of having a child are the same for men as they are for women?

FYI, at THAT level there are usually nannies/nurses/sitters involved. Those women tend to pass off the daily mundane stuff to others because....they can.
They have the money and position, generally, to not have to deal with diapers and stuff. And as for the "hormonally unbalanced" bit, well meds take care of that usually.


I'm aware and I do understand but my point is that the question is distasteful and sexist but still somewhat valid.  A lot of 'powerful' people (of either sex) see pregnancy as a self inflicted medical condition that hinders your ability to be successful professionally.  I'm not saying that this is right but a lot investors want to know this stuff and it's the job of a business writer to find out what their readers want to know.
 
Ook
2013-04-02 11:55:25 AM
I think if you want to look at how the NYT obits handle a brilliant scientist who also has a multifaceted life and personality, you could do worse than look at how they handled Feynman's obit:  http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/17/obituaries/richard-feynman-dead-at- 6 9-leading-theoretical-physicist.html  While they talk about many of the very cool and unique turns his life took, that is not their hook for why you should read this obituary. The NYT obits are not standard family-requested obituaries, it is supposed to be a short bio for everyone else in the world to be told why we should care this person has just died. Leading with their most noted contributions to the world is standard practice and the journalist who wrote the article we're all talking about deserves to be laughed at for his clear sexism. When he writes obits for male scientists the family are definitely not the leading paragraph, the most famous accomplishment is.

It's lovely to include her abilities as a wife and mother, but I'm not interested in reading obituaries of every great mom. I will sometimes read obituaries of great scientists however, and if I were skimming through their obituaries page I would have skipped hers because that was what they thought most notable about her, and most interesting to their readers.
 
2013-04-02 06:42:46 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Skirl Hutsenreiter: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: I'm not a scientist, nor am I a mother [yet] but I sure hope that I get as much respect for my cooking and homemaking as I get from my work in sales. I take my laundry, cooking, dog-care, cleaning, baking and general domestication very seriously. Yeah... I seriously doubt my sales work (not Mary Kay or Scentsy) will be noteworthy... I'll be glad to recognized as a good wife, homemaker at the same time as being a working woman.

One may hope to be remembered by those close to you however you like, but nobody gets an obituary in the NYT for being a wonderful parent, much less keeping house well.  She got an obituary for her work as a scientist.

If I had an NYT Obit, I would actually like if it said my food was as good as my work. I think it would be nice if we could stop acting like its an affront to feminism to be good at traditional homemaker skills at the same time as we compete with men.

I don't think we're acting like it's an affront to feminism to be good at those things.  But it is strange to emphasize them, considering obituaries for male scientists don't usually include anything about how great they were are keeping the lawn mown, or repairing the family car, or any other traditional male household roles.



No it is not strange, and I have read plenty of obituaries of accomplished men that included info about their interaction with their families, or their handiness around the house, or their prosaic hobbies like fishing or fixing cars, or model trains, etc, etc....the fact that stroganoff was mentioned in an obituary that was for a woman who took years out of a brilliant career to raise a family, yet still returned to that brilliant career and claimed further success, is not odd at all.  If you read it in the context presented, it is an inspiring tale that encompasses both humble family life yet still rises to a crescendo of accomplishment without being crass, dismissive, or preachy (unlike the complainers).

You'd think some "interent feminists" would praise the article for that, since it accomplishes what so many activists fail at, but instead all they do is whine and piss and moan, like bitter, spoiled failures always do.

It is only petty, self-obsessed moral-police types that think everyone should modify everything they do based only on their own whims that would bat an eye, and there are plenty of those kinds of people among the internet feminist retard brigade.
 
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