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(CNN)   Why the f*** do I even have to write this column for a major news organization to talk about something that shouldn't even remotely be a factor in sports   (cnn.com) divider line 98
    More: Interesting, NFL, gay athletes, sports leagues, promiscuities  
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6696 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Apr 2013 at 7:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-01 12:50:37 AM
Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
2013-04-01 01:18:46 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


Honestly, it is more people getting to know someone who is gay. The more people that come out, the more likely someone who is on the fence has a friend/neighbor/coworked/kid's friend who is gay and goes "wait, that person hasn't tried to destroy me".

Ellen helped a lot because she was someone who came into the homes of housewives and showed them not to be afraid, you also have Modern Family as a top show. Right now it could be the history side of things playing into it. People who have been the 50/50 but slightly con don't want to get lumped in with the wrong group as the winds change.

/just shooting ideas, nothing to really back it
//anyone have data over the last few years about trends
 
2013-04-01 02:31:43 AM
I love Chris Kluwe, he's phenomenal. Smart, well spoke, liberal, and geeky. He even wrote a story for the Penny Arcade/ Pvp comic "The Trenches."
 
2013-04-01 05:20:15 AM
Chris is fun. His Nerdist podcast with Hardwick was a riot. His open letter to Emmett Burns was hysterical in its perfection. Joe Bob says check it out.
 
2013-04-01 07:27:48 AM

TheManofPA: Honestly, it is more people getting to know someone who is gay. The more people that come out, the more likely someone who is on the fence has a friend/neighbor/coworked/kid's friend who is gay and goes "wait, that person hasn't tried to destroy me".


This. It reminds me of Vitaly Klitchko (sp?) talking about his first experience in America. To paraphrase: 'I realized they're not rat-faced people that will steal all of your money. That there are good ones and bad ones, just like everywhere else; no reason to be more fearful or distrusting of them, but certainly reason to be distrusting of the people that spread lies about them.'
 
2013-04-01 08:01:36 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


It's also generational. People born after 1980 have about a 70% acceptance rate- and now that generation is old enough to be active in politics, news organizations, etc. That's part of the reason there's been a huge shift over the past few years. Even if gays don't get everything they want out if the Supreme Court this summer, it's only a matter of time before it becomes a moot issue.
 
2013-04-01 08:04:36 AM
It seems every time something Kluwe writes shows up on the internets, I find another reminder that I should buy his jersey.
 
/Lions fan
 
2013-04-01 08:15:58 AM
Why the f*** do I even have to write this column for a major news organization to talk about something that shouldn't even remotely be a factor in sports?
 
Because you work for CNN, and the term "news" has become a foreign concept to them over the last decade?
 
2013-04-01 08:26:18 AM
This is one of the many reasons I like Kluwe:
 
Question: Dear Commissioner. I was curious about what you thought on the role of traumatic injury in the NFL, and the dichotomy between making the game safer versus giving the fans the hard hits and satiated bloodlust they so clearly desire. It seems to me that a lot of the popularity of the game boils down to the fact that there is that risk of injury, so I guess what I'm essentially asking is how are you going to balance that going forward without people feeling like you're never going to give them up, or never going to let them down?
 
2013-04-01 08:30:38 AM

babysealclubber: This is one of the many reasons I like Kluwe:
 
Question: Dear Commissioner. I was curious about what you thought on the role of traumatic injury in the NFL, and the dichotomy between making the game safer versus giving the fans the hard hits and satiated bloodlust they so clearly desire. It seems to me that a lot of the popularity of the game boils down to the fact that there is that risk of injury, so I guess what I'm essentially asking is how are you going to balance that going forward without people feeling like you're never going to give them up, or never going to let them down?


Ok, that is pure unadulterated win right there. Wonder how I missed it when it first came out.
 
2013-04-01 08:44:50 AM
media.punchingkitty.com
 
2013-04-01 09:00:20 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


The lessening of ignorance.  Many people used to believe that they didn't know any gay people.  Now it turns out they're everywhere.
 
It's a lot easier to hate on a faceless, nameless entity, than real life people.
 
2013-04-01 09:02:09 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).
 
2013-04-01 09:08:02 AM

UNC_Samurai: Why the f*** do I even have to write this column for a major news organization to talk about something that shouldn't even remotely be a factor in sports?
 
Because you work for CNN, and the term "news" has become a foreign concept to them over the last decade?


No, he works for the Minnesota Vikings.
 
2013-04-01 09:08:58 AM

vladimpaler: Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt. The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).


Those poor, oppressed bigots.
 
2013-04-01 09:12:03 AM

TheManofPA: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

Honestly, it is more people getting to know someone who is gay. The more people that come out, the more likely someone who is on the fence has a friend/neighbor/coworked/kid's friend who is gay and goes "wait, that person hasn't tried to destroy me".

Ellen helped a lot because she was someone who came into the homes of housewives and showed them not to be afraid, you also have Modern Family as a top show. Right now it could be the history side of things playing into it. People who have been the 50/50 but slightly con don't want to get lumped in with the wrong group as the winds change.

/just shooting ideas, nothing to really back it
//anyone have data over the last few years about trends


Now if we could just get Democrats and Republicans to admit that both sides have their equal share of fark-ups, idiots, and crooks.
 
2013-04-01 09:12:55 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


I'm not sure attitudes have shifted as dramatically in such a short period (although they certainly have somewhat). I think it's probably more likely that the "con" people have learned to stop commenting because everyone they piped up they were drowned out in waves of "you stupid ignorant piece of shiat recheck homophobe.  You're probably secretly gay yourself." I guess it's a kind of progress though.
 
2013-04-01 09:13:05 AM

CheatCommando: babysealclubber: This is one of the many reasons I like Kluwe:
 
Question: Dear Commissioner. I was curious about what you thought on the role of traumatic injury in the NFL, and the dichotomy between making the game safer versus giving the fans the hard hits and satiated bloodlust they so clearly desire. It seems to me that a lot of the popularity of the game boils down to the fact that there is that risk of injury, so I guess what I'm essentially asking is how are you going to balance that going forward without people feeling like you're never going to give them up, or never going to let them down?

Ok, that is pure unadulterated win right there. Wonder how I missed it when it first came out.


Yeah. His reply was pretty good after Goodell actually answered the question and missed the joke.
 
"Fair enough. I have a follow up question then. When a football is sailing through the air, whether it be a punt or a field goal, does it sound more like "wooooooosh"? Or is it a shorter flight and thus more like "whoosh"? "
 
2013-04-01 09:15:40 AM

kronicfeld: vladimpaler: Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt. The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).

Those poor, oppressed bigots.


Yes, exactly like that.
 
2013-04-01 09:44:40 AM

vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).

 
But it's still cool to make fun of black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc. Right? It's such a pain when human decency rears it's ugly head.
 
2013-04-01 09:55:21 AM

INeedAName: vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).
 
But it's still cool to make fun of black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc. Right? It's such a pain when human decency rears it's ugly head.


Did I say that?  Did I give my opinion anywhere?  A question was asked, I provided an answer.  Your ridiculous, over- the-top response to my answer is a prime example of the attacks I mentioned, so thanks for that.
 
2013-04-01 09:56:13 AM

facisto: UNC_Samurai: Why the f*** do I even have to write this column for a major news organization to talk about something that shouldn't even remotely be a factor in sports?
 
Because you work for CNN, and the term "news" has become a foreign concept to them over the last decade?

No, he works for the Minnesota Vikings.

 
Let me re-phrase, he's "contributing to" CNN.
 
2013-04-01 09:57:41 AM

INeedAName: But it's still cool to make fun of black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc. Right?


You can either make fun of Jews or Heebs. Not both.
 
2013-04-01 10:14:00 AM

vladimpaler: INeedAName: vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).
 
But it's still cool to make fun of black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc. Right? It's such a pain when human decency rears it's ugly head.

 
Did I say that?  Did I give my opinion anywhere?  A question was asked, I provided an answer.  Your ridiculous, over- the-top response to my answer is a prime example of the attacks I mentioned, so thanks for that.
 
Yeah, but anyway, what's it like to lack basic human decency?  Does it bother you people that just a few years ago your kind were in the majority, and now you can only find likeminded people at cross burnings, seal clubbings, and Young Republican gatherings?
 
2013-04-01 10:32:15 AM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." - MLK
 
2013-04-01 10:47:23 AM

Yes please: vladimpaler: INeedAName: vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).
 
But it's still cool to make fun of black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc. Right? It's such a pain when human decency rears it's ugly head.
 
Did I say that?  Did I give my opinion anywhere?  A question was asked, I provided an answer.  Your ridiculous, over- the-top response to my answer is a prime example of the attacks I mentioned, so thanks for that.
 
Yeah, but anyway, what's it like to lack basic human decency?  Does it bother you people that just a few years ago your kind were in the majority, and now you can only find likeminded people at cross burnings, seal clubbings, and Young Republican gatherings?


More baseless attacks, so goodbye.
 
2013-04-01 10:53:09 AM
I think I'll start up a fantasy football league next year based on who might be gay.
 
2013-04-01 11:16:52 AM

vladimpaler: Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt. The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).

 
You're more than welcome to instead feel remorse and pity for those who still shout against homosexuality instead of those whom, after centuries of being vilified and mistreated because of their very being, are finally becoming accepted. I mean, to each their own, but in my book, basic human rights and decency trumps "I find something icky and it should be stopped".
 
2013-04-01 11:52:16 AM
Vlad, I'm reminded of a media kerfuffle from a few years back that involved the Dixie Chicks. Some idiots claimed that because stations refused to play their music after they protested the Iraq war, they were being censored.  And people rightfully said, no, it's just a reaction to their speech and words have consequences. Similarly, it's not that people are baselessly being called bigots because they are anti-gay, it's that by exercising their free speech, they are letting everyone else know they are bigots and then acting butthurt when the public recognizes this and reacts accordingly.  Maybe it's a stretch to apply it to you specifically, but there is no silent majority suffering for fear of being wrongly called a bigot.  There's just a lot of bigots that don't like being called bigots in public.
 
2013-04-01 12:09:44 PM

bglove25: Vlad, I'm reminded of a media kerfuffle from a few years back that involved the Dixie Chicks. Some idiots claimed that because stations refused to play their music after they protested the Iraq war, they were being censored.  And people rightfully said, no, it's just a reaction to their speech and words have consequences. Similarly, it's not that people are baselessly being called bigots because they are anti-gay, it's that by exercising their free speech, they are letting everyone else know they are bigots and then acting butthurt when the public recognizes this and reacts accordingly.  Maybe it's a stretch to apply it to you specifically, but there is no silent majority suffering for fear of being wrongly called a bigot.  There's just a lot of bigots that don't like being called bigots in public.


The original question was why are most posts now pro-gay.  I opined that people who don't support gays are tired of being attacked by those who do.  I did not give any opinion on the subject, I did not say who was right or wrong, I didn't come close to guessing what the actual percentages are.

During the entire time I have been on this board, I have made one post about homosexuality.  In the recent post about Gronkowski, someone asked when we would have a gay post without alluding to sex.  I pointed out the story about the gay soccer player from Leeds only made fun of the city.

Nice to know with that post and this one, I am now one of the biggest bigots on Fark.  Oh well, I guess an accomplishment is an accomplishment.
 
2013-04-01 12:10:58 PM
Hatred is a poor response to anything. Ridicule is unproductive. The latter is a pretty common human response, though, to people who waltz in and pronounce from on high that "homosexuality is immoral!" or "marriage equality is bad!", bullheaded and not to be swayed.

Comments on the subject that are made with sincerity and humility will receive comments in kind. Yes, there will be some insults; this is Fark, after all. You will have to ignore those and focus on the productive discussions.

I believe unequivocally that homosexuality is perfectly fine and that homosexual relationships ought to be given full legal recognition. Slowly, slowly, more every day, that's the way the wind is blowing. If you don't think likewise, the way people are inclined to respond to your opinions depends heavily on how you express them.
 
2013-04-01 12:20:37 PM
vladimpaler:  I responded to you because you asked a question.  Any other questions?

Yes.  What is your personal view on whether a gay person should be accepted as equal?  I mean this in two senses: (1) personal acceptance by teammates/co-workers, and (2) equal protection against discrimination claims under the law.  You seem very eager to remind everyone about what you haven't said on this subject, so it would probably help your cause to put something on the record as to what you have said.
 
2013-04-01 12:44:21 PM
Shh ! Dont even joke about gays or question anything related to any gay person or you will get swiftly screamed at by the militant soccer mom's bigot identification and elimnation squad.

Not surp[risingly these are almost never people who self identify as LBG or T or queer. Ive found that most of them actually take small ribbings at least as well as heteros and are much better and patient with me if I ask ignorant questions in threads like this. Most actually want to just farking want to mingle with folks and be simple pieces in the mosaic of society same as everybody else. Most who can take a dick in the ass can take a joke, so long as it isn personally hurtful.

Very few people who youd want to have a beer and watch a game with want to be the focal points of political pundits or ESPN's nutcases or the Westboro Baptist Chuch or FARK's poo flinging asshat monkey brigade no matter their sexual orientation. But the people who like yelling and screaming at eachother for attention are not about to let go of THE BIG GAY RIGHTS STORIES and allow simple normal gay folks to become simply folks. Not without a huge dramatic push and howls for immediately outing on gay in each and every high visibility high emotion job category. For the good of the person who is peer pressured into the limelight natch.

Strange thing is that over the last few decades weve finally made enormous strides towards considering gay people as just "people" instead of Evil Filthy People" or worse "victims" I mean I understand that y'all probably think you are helpful fighters n this war youve declared. But really you only win a civil war by either fighting until everyone is so much worse for the experiecne that they suddenly go sane and quit fighting despite media egging you forward or you use diplomacy tact and patience to build and teach and heal. This has has been done wherever progress is seen and well before the feudal  screaming fighters arrive to "help"
 
2013-04-01 12:51:37 PM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


The fact that after 9 states legalized gay marriage, the world has not come to an end. It's happening everywhere. Not only that, but the younger generation just isn't as hung up on this as even the people in their 30's.

By the time i'm retirement age, people will be looking back, scratching their heads, and trying to figure out why anyone was THAT worried, just like when people now look back to interracial marriages being illegal and can't figure out ANY justification for it.
 
2013-04-01 12:53:45 PM
Kids. Kids. KIDS. Does mama have to spank?

I saw nowhere where Vlad said that he shared those feelings. Yet he got jumped on, thus proving his point. No hate means NO HATE. When you HATE the people who think homosexuality is immoral, it just makes them that more zealous. When you call them names, it doesn't make them think, oh shiat, I'm a bigot, I had better completely realign my world view. It just makes them more zealous. The only way to get through to people is using reason, and a hell of a lot of the time that doesn't work either. So let's all calm down and a free that while assholes certainly are assholes, jumping all over them is not the way to resolve anything, okay?
 
2013-04-01 12:54:58 PM

Super Chronic: vladimpaler:  I responded to you because you asked a question.  Any other questions?

Yes.  What is your personal view on whether a gay person should be accepted as equal?  I mean this in two senses: (1) personal acceptance by teammates/co-workers, and (2) equal protection against discrimination claims under the law.  You seem very eager to remind everyone about what you haven't said on this subject, so it would probably help your cause to put something on the record as to what you have said.


1.  I have had gay coworkers.  If they did their jobs without bothering me, I accepted them.  This is the same attitude I have towards men or women, whites, blacks, hispanics, Asians, or Native Americans, lefties or righties, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics or athiests, or any other groupage you can thing of.

2.  I do not think gays should be protected by discrimination laws.  I do not think there should be discrimination laws, except for governments  (they should not be allowed to discriminate against taxpayers).  I think business owners should be able to hire, not  hire, or fire anyone for any reason they want.  If they have policies against hiring certain groups, they should have to advertise those   That way people can choose to support a business or not.  If a bigot can run a business successfully, more power to him.
 
2013-04-01 12:55:18 PM

mikaloyd: Shh ! Dont even joke about gays or question anything related to any gay person or you will get swiftly screamed at by the militant soccer mom's bigot identification and elimnation squad.

Not surp[risingly these are almost never people who self identify as LBG or T or queer. Ive found that most of them actually take small ribbings at least as well as heteros and are much better and patient with me if I ask ignorant questions in threads like this. Most actually want to just farking want to mingle with folks and be simple pieces in the mosaic of society same as everybody else. Most who can take a dick in the ass can take a joke, so long as it isn personally hurtful.

Very few people who youd want to have a beer and watch a game with want to be the focal points of political pundits or ESPN's nutcases or the Westboro Baptist Chuch or FARK's poo flinging asshat monkey brigade no matter their sexual orientation. But the people who like yelling and screaming at eachother for attention are not about to let go of THE BIG GAY RIGHTS STORIES and allow simple normal gay folks to become simply folks. Not without a huge dramatic push and howls for immediately outing on gay in each and every high visibility high emotion job category. For the good of the person who is peer pressured into the limelight natch.

Strange thing is that over the last few decades weve finally made enormous strides towards considering gay people as just "people" instead of Evil Filthy People" or worse "victims" I mean I understand that y'all probably think you are helpful fighters n this war youve declared. But really you only win a civil war by either fighting until everyone is so much worse for the experiecne that they suddenly go sane and quit fighting despite media egging you forward or you use diplomacy tact and patience to build and teach and heal. This has has been done wherever progress is seen and well before the feudal  screaming fighters arrive to "help"


My word, mika, you and I should become Fark's Voices of Reason.
 
2013-04-01 01:07:30 PM

vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).


Well sure, but aside from the amount of vitriol expressed, isn't that how it should be?  A person doesn't have to be supportive, and I respect that there are religious or different reasons some people some can't or wont accept homosexuality, but if they speak up against a person because of who they date, then why as a society shouldn't we vilify such individuals?

People can hold their own own opinions and speak freely about them, that doesn't mean people can't weigh those opinions and reply with their own.
 
2013-04-01 01:10:09 PM

Bunny Deville: So let's all calm down and a free that while assholes certainly are assholes, jumping all over them is not the way to resolve anything, okay?


But this is the internet! Relentlessly jumping down people's throats is a favorite pastime around these parts. Now, call me a moron and also randomly interject in this thread how Firefly is the best TV show ever.
 
2013-04-01 01:11:40 PM

Killer Cars: Bunny Deville: So let's all calm down and a free that while assholes certainly are assholes, jumping all over them is not the way to resolve anything, okay?

But this is the internet! Relentlessly jumping down people's throats is a favorite pastime around these parts. Now, call me a moron and also randomly interject in this thread how Firefly is the best TV show ever.


You farking moron, Doctor Who is the best TV show ever. Jesus christ.

/am I doing it right?
 
2013-04-01 01:17:39 PM

vladimpaler: Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt. The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).


Lee Atwater on the Southern Strategy (I'm paraphrasing): "In the 1950s, it was 'n-bomb, n-bomb, n-bomb'. By 1960, you can't say that anymore, so it becomes about schools, about busing, about housing. We lost the word 'n-bomb', but kept the same fights up using 'code words' that got the same people on board."
 
2013-04-01 01:44:54 PM
What, no tight end/wide receiver jokes?
 
2013-04-01 01:51:35 PM

Lumbar Puncture: vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.

It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).

Well sure, but aside from the amount of vitriol expressed, isn't that how it should be?  A person doesn't have to be supportive, and I respect that there are religious or different reasons some people some can't or wont accept homosexuality, but if they speak up against a person because of who they date, then why as a society shouldn't we vilify such individuals?

People can hold their own own opinions and speak freely about them, that doesn't mean people can't weigh those opinions and reply with their own.



When I was born, homosexuality was still considered a mental disease according to all scientific sources and a sin by most religions.  Now in the last 48 years  (or so), homosexuality came to be considered so normal that to question it for any reason means you are a hyper religious, stupid bigot who doesn't deserve to live.  That's a pretty big swing for people to accept, but those who don't instantly accept it have been treated very badly on the net.

Sorry if I don't hate those people enough for the rest of the Farkers.
 
2013-04-01 02:08:51 PM
It's only a factor because the left wing crazy make it a factor. Just like anything else.
 
2013-04-01 02:21:53 PM

vladimpaler: When I was born, homosexuality was still considered a mental disease according to all scientific sources and a sin by most religions. Now in the last 48 years (or so), homosexuality came to be considered so normal that to question it for any reason means you are a hyper religious, stupid bigot who doesn't deserve to live. That's a pretty big swing for people to accept, but those who don't instantly accept it have been treated very badly on the net.

Sorry if I don't hate those people enough for the rest of the Farkers.


What is there to question? And I don't care if you are still uncomfortable with the concept of homosexuality as long as you don't try to harm anyone for it or legislate it.

And I'm not so much "pro-gay" as I am "pro-don't-give-a-fark-about-who-you-fark."
 
2013-04-01 02:27:17 PM

vladimpaler: Yes please: vladimpaler: Super Chronic: vladimpaler: CheatCommando: vladimpaler: Did I give my opinion anywhere?
 
If you think you weren't offering an opinion in that post you are either a clueless moron or a shiatty liar. Your pick, pumpkin.
 
 
Are you saying people against homosexuals/homosexuality are not attacked?  Hell, all I did say is that those people are attacked and I've been called a KKK member, an animal abuser, a Republican (ok, that one is true), someone who mocks "black people, jews, 'tards, heebs, wetbacks, etc.", and a clueless moron and/or a shiatty liar.
 
Despite a complete lack of evidence of any prejudice on my part (FYI, I have the same prejudice as Mark Twain), you and Yes please have proved my statements correct.  So, once again, thanks for that.
 
What happened to "goodbye"?
 
I said goodbye to Yes please because he twice hurled baseless insults at me.  He proved he could not have a conversation on the subject, so I will not respond to him again.
 
I responded to CheatCommando because he responded to me.
 
I responded to you because you asked a question.  Any other questions?
 
I only once made baseless attacks, and I thought they were so outlandish that anyone would have recognized them as sarcasm.  In fact, upthread I argued basically the exact same thing that you did on this very point.
 
 
OK, I missed your earlier post.  I apologize for that.  Unfortunately, what you thought was a sarcastic attack was indistiguishable from the real responses from other Farkers (INeedAName, CheatCommando).
 
You can't deviate from this board's norm (100% support/acceptance of gays, liberalism/Democratic party values, hatred of religion, etc) without subjecting yourself to insults, ridicule and hatred.
 
I know, welcome to Fark.


I think people reacted to you because of the "wah, I'm being oppressed" aspect you mention in others and then.... show yourself. In one regard I agree with you, I think maybe questioning gays is moving into non-kosher speech territory... but maybe it should. Would you take someone talking about racial miscegenation seriously, or just roll your eyes? As for the left-right politics, the whole belligerent gambit seems represented on fark; distribution density may vary by thread.
 
2013-04-01 02:35:35 PM

Bunny Deville: mikaloyd: Shh ! Dont even joke about gays or question anything related to any gay person or you will get swiftly screamed at by the militant soccer mom's bigot identification and elimnation squad.

Not surp[risingly these are almost never people who self identify as LBG or T or queer. Ive found that most of them actually take small ribbings at least as well as heteros and are much better and patient with me if I ask ignorant questions in threads like this. Most actually want to just farking want to mingle with folks and be simple pieces in the mosaic of society same as everybody else. Most who can take a dick in the ass can take a joke, so long as it isn personally hurtful.

Very few people who youd want to have a beer and watch a game with want to be the focal points of political pundits or ESPN's nutcases or the Westboro Baptist Chuch or FARK's poo flinging asshat monkey brigade no matter their sexual orientation. But the people who like yelling and screaming at eachother for attention are not about to let go of THE BIG GAY RIGHTS STORIES and allow simple normal gay folks to become simply folks. Not without a huge dramatic push and howls for immediately outing on gay in each and every high visibility high emotion job category. For the good of the person who is peer pressured into the limelight natch.

Strange thing is that over the last few decades weve finally made enormous strides towards considering gay people as just "people" instead of Evil Filthy People" or worse "victims" I mean I understand that y'all probably think you are helpful fighters n this war youve declared. But really you only win a civil war by either fighting until everyone is so much worse for the experiecne that they suddenly go sane and quit fighting despite media egging you forward or you use diplomacy tact and patience to build and teach and heal. This has has been done wherever progress is seen and well before the feudal  screaming fighters arrive to "help"

My word, mika, you and I shoul ...


The problem comes about when these two worlds intersect, and we get garbage on the Sports Tab like that News Busters article last week that got bent out of shape because someone joked about white people dancing at a Heat loss.  That shiat has no place on the Sports Tab, and neither does barneyfife bringing the Politics Tab partisan poo-slinging.

Yes, athletes have slowly become more and more active on this particular issue over the last decade.  We saw it with the NHL players and the You Can Play program.  Athletes are generally part of the younger generation, and in the last few years you've seen kids that grew up in the 90s and 2000s reach the pro levels, so now that's translating into awareness campaigns much like several southern California players in the early- and mid-90s made stopping gang violence an issue.

Lumbar Puncture: Well sure, but aside from the amount of vitriol expressed, isn't that how it should be? A person doesn't have to be supportive, and I respect that there are religious or different reasons some people some can't or wont accept homosexuality, but if they speak up against a person because of who they date, then why as a society shouldn't we vilify such individuals?


You always have to be careful of backlash, but this is what has allowed us to come as far as we have on issues of racism in the US.  We decided to relentlessly teach kids that racism was wrong, period, end of story.  And if someone said something contrarian enough, society forced them to accept the consequences of their statements.  And now people have either the good sense or the societal awareness to know that if you say something like Al Campanis or Howard Cosell, you'll justly see a backlash.

Look at Tim Hardaway; what he said was morally repugnant, but over the last few years he's realized he screwed up, and he's trying to make amends.  That's the benefit of a society putting their foot down and saying, "if you insist on saying inappropriate things, you're only going to make your life more difficult."
 
2013-04-01 02:42:26 PM
I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.
 
2013-04-01 02:49:00 PM

vladimpaler: When I was born, homosexuality was still considered a mental disease according to all scientific sources and a sin by most religions. Now in the last 48 years (or so), homosexuality came to be considered so normal that to question it for any reason means you are a hyper religious, stupid bigot who doesn't deserve to live. That's a pretty big swing for people to accept, but those who don't instantly accept it have been treated very badly on the net.

Sorry if I don't hate those people enough for the rest of the Farkers


Hey, I know people like that as well and I love some of them because they're friends or family.  I'm disappointed they feel that way but a lifetime of being told something means they're not going to change their minds anytime soon.  My point to you was, if those people choose to express their opinion that they dislike another person's sexuality on the internet, then they're opening themselves to criticism from random strangers on the internet.

If they feel that strongly about who other people date to voice an opinion, than they need to accept that people, or friends of people, who have spent the last 48 years being told it was abnormal, a mental condition or a sin might also have strong feelings as well and are willing to express that right back to them.  Of course it helps not to be an asshole about it, but some folks feel pretty strongly.

Pretty much goes for anything, gay or not.  An Alaskan representative used the term wetback in a speech and was jumped on about it.  His explanation was that they didn't use the term on his farm as a kid in the way people do now.  Aside from that being bullshiat, does that mean people shouldn't be offended by such references and not call the guy out on it?

So you don't need to apologize to anyone for not hating on folks who think like that.  We probably all know people who aren't comfortable with the idea of homosexuality.  But if you express your opinion in a public, expect the public to express it right back and don't whine if they're maybe a little tired of being told to just accept certain attitudes.
 
2013-04-01 02:50:19 PM

85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.


That's pretty much the summary of the article.
 
2013-04-01 02:57:18 PM

vladimpaler: When I was born, homosexuality was still considered a mental disease according to all scientific sources and a sin by most religions.  Now in the last 48 years  (or so), homosexuality came to be considered so normal that to question it for any reason means you are a hyper religious, stupid bigot who doesn't deserve to live.  That's a pretty big swing for people to accept, but those who don't instantly accept it have been treated very badly on the net.

Sorry if I don't hate those people enough for the rest of the Farkers.


Nobody said people who don't accept it don't deserve to live. That's something that bigots pull out to pretend that they're the real victims.

And yeah, things have changed over the years, but when people are as exceptionally cruel as most of the anti-gay people I know are, all the while hiding behind religion to excuse their meanness and cruelty, then yeah, I am going to call them hyper-religious, stupid bigots.
 
2013-04-01 02:58:03 PM

85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.


Well, except some people DO care about other people's orientation, even though it is, as you implied, nobody else's business. And since some people care so much that they're willing to fight to legally discriminate against gay people, I just feel like the rest of us should say something about that. Otherwise, those who discriminate will no doubt choose to believe that they are in the right.  And the more people who "come out" as non-discriminatory towards gays, the easier it is for others to "come out" and then we find out who the real minority is.

And I think that has a lot to do with the changing of the tide lately. So it's not really about YOUR sexuality. It's about ALL OF US not giving a fark about it. We are the apathy this generation needs.
 
2013-04-01 03:08:12 PM

Di Atribe: 85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.

Well, except some people DO care about other people's orientation, even though it is, as you implied, nobody else's business. And since some people care so much that they're willing to fight to legally discriminate against gay people, I just feel like the rest of us should say something about that. Otherwise, those who discriminate will no doubt choose to believe that they are in the right.  And the more people who "come out" as non-discriminatory towards gays, the easier it is for others to "come out" and then we find out who the real minority is.

And I think that has a lot to do with the changing of the tide lately. So it's not really about YOUR sexuality. It's about ALL OF US not giving a fark about it. We are the apathy this generation needs.


True that. I think a lot of the younger generations, say age 60 and under, just don't give a flying fark in the wind anymore. Not all of them, by any means, but enough. The youngest generations truly don't care, save for a few bullies that will hopefully grow out of it. I've raised my kids to be accepting, and that's all I can really do.

Meanwhile I have my own battle that can't even be fought until this one is won, so I'm hoping it's won quickly.
 
2013-04-01 03:23:12 PM
I will never go out of my way to endorse a pointless endeavour. Regardless of personal ethos supporting ether sid e would align my beliefs with extremists.Sacrificing my credibility and pandering to 'look at me nows' is a step backward for any community.True acceptance prevails when one side stops stoking the fire.
 
2013-04-01 03:24:01 PM

85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.


Because in a heteronormative environment, sexual preferences are announced to the world on a daily basis.  At some point, there will inevitably be a comment on the practice field along the lines of "hey, check out that cheerleader's ass!"  The player making that comment is, as you put it, "telling everyone about their lifestyle" (ignoring for now your apparent belief that heterosexuality is a lifestyle choice).  It would be a better world if a teammate could simply say "no thanks, I prefer dudes," and for everyone else just to be able to shrug it off.  That's all anybody wants.
 
2013-04-01 03:29:21 PM

Lumbar Puncture: 85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.

That's pretty much the summary of the article.


Too many people still say that gay folks are "announcing their sexual orientation to the world" or "flaunting their lifestyle" or whatever... when all they're doing is displaying a loved one's picture, sharing a brief kiss, holding hands, occasionally mentioning their partner in conversation, etc. Things that are utterly unremarkable for hetero couples.

We can't just "stop focusing on [sexuality/race/gender]" when meaningful inequalities still exist for them.
 
2013-04-01 03:31:37 PM

Super Chronic: 85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.

Because in a heteronormative environment, sexual preferences are announced to the world on a daily basis.  At some point, there will inevitably be a comment on the practice field along the lines of "hey, check out that cheerleader's ass!"  The player making that comment is, as you put it, "telling everyone about their lifestyle" (ignoring for now your apparent belief that heterosexuality is a lifestyle choice).  It would be a better world if a teammate could simply say "no thanks, I prefer dudes," and for everyone else just to be able to shrug it off.  That's all anybody wants.


... in fact, the point doesn't need to be made using crass banter.  I announce my sexual preference to the world every time I say "hey guys, I'd like you all to meet my wife."  I would just like to live in a world where men are equally comfortable saying "hey guys, I'd like you all to meet my husband."
 
2013-04-01 03:59:41 PM

Super Chronic: ... in fact, the point doesn't need to be made using crass banter. I announce my sexual preference to the world every time I say "hey guys, I'd like you all to meet my wife."


Yup. It's inherently disingenuous to play the "they don't have to flaunt it" card when everyone is exposed to a myriad of either aggressive or passive displays of hetero-ness (for lack of a better word) during the course of a single day. It happens in daily conversations with coworkers, it happens out in public places, and it's used in the barrage of advertisements we see. If someone ignores the teenage couple making out in the park and a billboard for Axe body spray using a female model but takes special notice of two guys holding hands walking down the street, that's their own issue.
 
2013-04-01 04:13:35 PM

Super Chronic: Super Chronic: 85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.

Because in a heteronormative environment, sexual preferences are announced to the world on a daily basis.  At some point, there will inevitably be a comment on the practice field along the lines of "hey, check out that cheerleader's ass!"  The player making that comment is, as you put it, "telling everyone about their lifestyle" (ignoring for now your apparent belief that heterosexuality is a lifestyle choice).  It would be a better world if a teammate could simply say "no thanks, I prefer dudes," and for everyone else just to be able to shrug it off.  That's all anybody wants.

... in fact, the point doesn't need to be made using crass banter.  I announce my sexual preference to the world every time I say "hey guys, I'd like you all to meet my wife."  I would just like to live in a world where men are equally comfortable saying "hey guys, I'd like you all to meet my husband."


Good luck with that. I cant even talk about wanting to fark really tall really fat broads without queers and heteros both coming uncoonted and elbowing eachother out of the way to be first in line to tell me that my preferences are unacceptable.
 
2013-04-01 04:20:00 PM
 wonder how Yiffers manage to hide their sexuality from their parents?
 
2013-04-01 04:24:06 PM

mikaloyd: wonder how Yiffers manage to hide their sexuality from their parents?


Not that I've thought especially long about this, but, I would think if you parents are wondering why you have a full-size bunny costume in your bedroom...I dunno...lie and say that you have a part time job on the other side of town for some retail store as a mascot? I could see my Dad just going "oh, okay, whatever" and not ever thinking twice or following up on it. Granted, I could probably tell him "oh, I feel a special kinship with rabbits, and I wear this during sexual intercourse" and he'd still probably go "oh, okay, whatever".
 
2013-04-01 04:26:11 PM

mikaloyd: Good luck with that. I cant even talk about wanting to fark really tall really fat broads without queers and heteros both coming uncoonted and elbowing eachother out of the way to be first in line to tell me that my preferences are unacceptable.


That's because you call them broads; the dames hate being called that.
 
2013-04-01 04:27:36 PM

mikaloyd: wonder how Yiffers manage to hide their sexuality from their parents?


I wonder how many awkward moments were created in the Milwaukee and Pittsburgh areas when Bob Uecker started talking about the furry convention in his hotel.
 
2013-04-01 04:34:24 PM
ITT someone makes excuses for haters.

Of fun note: anti-gay commenters richly deserve all the scorn heaped upon them by the internet, because they are deliberately staking a claim that they don't believe their fellow man deserves to be viewed and treated equally under the law because their fellow man loves another man, and for no other reason.

Maybe they don't like being ridiculed and treated like the scum of the earth, but then maybe they should just shut the fark up and quit trying to maintain the status quo of separate but equal.  If their big girl panties are all up in a bunch because someone was mean to them on the internet, then they should try not being mean to other people on the internet.
 
2013-04-01 04:42:51 PM

Yes please: Frederick: Interesting the comments.

It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

I'm not sure attitudes have shifted as dramatically in such a short period (although they certainly have somewhat). I think it's probably more likely that the "con" people have learned to stop commenting because everyone they piped up they were drowned out in waves of "you stupid ignorant piece of shiat recheck homophobe.  You're probably secretly gay yourself." I guess it's a kind of progress though.


Or, maybe all the bigots are posting on Stormfront and freeperville?
 
2013-04-01 04:52:17 PM

UNC_Samurai: mikaloyd: Good luck with that. I cant even talk about wanting to fark really tall really fat broads without queers and heteros both coming uncoonted and elbowing eachother out of the way to be first in line to tell me that my preferences are unacceptable.

That's because you call them broads; the dames hate being called that.


Hey! Excuse me, you misogynists, but the proper term is "skirts!"

I bet you did "femi" nazi that one coming.
 
2013-04-01 05:01:49 PM

Elandriel: ITT someone makes excuses for haters.

Of fun note: anti-gay commenters richly deserve all the scorn heaped upon them by the internet, because they are deliberately staking a claim that they don't believe their fellow man deserves to be viewed and treated equally under the law because their fellow man loves another man, and for no other reason.

Maybe they don't like being ridiculed and treated like the scum of the earth, but then maybe they should just shut the fark up and quit trying to maintain the status quo of separate but equal.  If their big girl panties are all up in a bunch because someone was mean to them on the internet, then they should try not being mean to other people on the internet.


That is particularly true given that the scorn they're getting is nowhere near as vicious as what they're dishing out. I mean, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention just blamed gays for Kim Jong Un threatening to nuke everybody. I don't know of anything that comes close to topping that level of rhetoric from the equality side and that's pretty tame compared to a lot of anti-gay rhetoric. If they can't take it they shouldn't dish it out.
 
2013-04-01 05:12:42 PM

GreatGlavinsGhost: Yes please: Frederick: Interesting the comments.

It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in supporting gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

I'm not sure attitudes have shifted as dramatically in such a short period (although they certainly have somewhat). I think it's probably more likely that the "con" people have learned to stop commenting because everyone they piped up they were drowned out in waves of "you stupid ignorant piece of shiat recheck homophobe.  You're probably secretly gay yourself." I guess it's a kind of progress though.

Or, maybe all the bigots are posting on Stormfront and freeperville?


Maybe.  I'll bet there are also secret websites set up for people who didn't like Saving Private Ryan or Inception.  Driving out dissenting votes to their echo chambers to preserve your own echo chamber doesn't do a lot for honest dialogue.
 
2013-04-01 06:21:58 PM

Yes please: GreatGlavinsGhost: Yes please: Frederick: Interesting the comments.

It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in supporting gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

I'm not sure attitudes have shifted as dramatically in such a short period (although they certainly have somewhat). I think it's probably more likely that the "con" people have learned to stop commenting because everyone they piped up they were drowned out in waves of "you stupid ignorant piece of shiat recheck homophobe.  You're probably secretly gay yourself." I guess it's a kind of progress though.

Or, maybe all the bigots are posting on Stormfront and freeperville?

Maybe.  I'll bet there are also secret websites set up for people who didn't like Saving Private Ryan or Inception.  Driving out dissenting votes to their echo chambers to preserve your own echo chamber doesn't do a lot for honest dialogue.


Yes, lets all take a moment to feel sorry for the bigots out there. We all feel bad that they're too afraid of the consequences of free speech. Bigots should only spew vitriol, it's simply too much when they are on the receiving end of it.
 
2013-04-01 06:56:34 PM

domdare: Yes please: GreatGlavinsGhost: Yes please: Frederick: Interesting the comments.

It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in supporting gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

I'm not sure attitudes have shifted as dramatically in such a short period (although they certainly have somewhat). I think it's probably more likely that the "con" people have learned to stop commenting because everyone they piped up they were drowned out in waves of "you stupid ignorant piece of shiat recheck homophobe.  You're probably secretly gay yourself." I guess it's a kind of progress though.

Or, maybe all the bigots are posting on Stormfront and freeperville?

Maybe.  I'll bet there are also secret websites set up for people who didn't like Saving Private Ryan or Inception.  Driving out dissenting votes to their echo chambers to preserve your own echo chamber doesn't do a lot for honest dialogue.

Yes, lets all take a moment to feel sorry for the bigots out there. We all feel bad that they're too afraid of the consequences of free speech. Bigots should only spew vitriol, it's simply too much when they are on the receiving end of it.


Who said anything about feeling sorry for anyone?
 
2013-04-01 07:06:23 PM
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 D RFZrzg62Zj0

Seriously, I am not going to say I support homosexuality, however if a player helps my team then why would I care? My lack of support is due to religious beliefs, but if man perceives homosexuality as a sin then my sins are as equally damning. You live your life, I will live mine, in the end I believe that I will be judged by a higher power.
 
2013-04-01 07:34:11 PM

vladimpaler: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?
 
 
Because now if you say anything that does not support gays one hundred percent, you are insulted, vilified and treated with the utmost contempt.  The attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with or approve of homosexuality/homosexuals has driven them into the closet (to coin a phrase).


That true. Many of us have decided not to suffer bigots anymore. Sorry.
 
2013-04-01 08:14:17 PM

Di Atribe: UNC_Samurai: mikaloyd: Good luck with that. I cant even talk about wanting to fark really tall really fat broads without queers and heteros both coming uncoonted and elbowing eachother out of the way to be first in line to tell me that my preferences are unacceptable.

That's because you call them broads; the dames hate being called that.

Hey! Excuse me, you misogynists, but the proper term is "skirts!"

I bet you did "femi" nazi that one coming.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-01 08:43:35 PM

85blue: I have never announced my sexual orientation to the world.Why are people going around telling everyone about their lifestyle?People don't care and have their own lives to live.Get over yourselves.


You sound like one of them furrys.
 
2013-04-01 10:02:38 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?

The lessening of ignorance.  Many people used to believe that they didn't know any gay people.  Now it turns out they're everywhere.
 
It's a lot easier to hate on a faceless, nameless entity, than real life people.


I think your spot on. When the overwhelming majority of homosexuals were in the closet few heterosexual people "knew" any homosexuals. As they started to come out of the closet more and more people began to realize that they did know homosexuals among their family, friends, and coworkers. Many people then realized that these were just regular people, no better or worse than anyone else.

It is hard to hate someone you've known for years. You tend see them as real world people and not just one dimensional caricatures.
 
2013-04-01 10:14:29 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-02 12:03:50 AM
I like Kluwe, and respect his opinion.  In the article he says teammates shouldn't mind showering with gays.  He would really gain my respect if his mom, sister, wife/girlfriend, etc hops in the shower with the team too.
 
2013-04-02 12:43:50 AM

knbwhite: I like Kluwe, and respect his opinion.  In the article he says teammates shouldn't mind showering with gays.  He would really gain my respect if his mom, sister, wife/girlfriend, etc hops in the shower with the team too.


Ummm, that's really kind of a creepy idea.
 
2013-04-02 01:49:13 AM
Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays
 
2013-04-02 11:51:24 AM
Instead of looking at an openly gay player as a distraction, ask yourselves -- how much better would that player play if he didn't have to worry about hiding a core part of who he is? How many more sacks would he have, free of that pressure? How many more receptions? How many more rushing yards?

I love me some Chris Kluwe, and I know what point he's trying to make, but a small part of me desperately wants him to have been very aware of how else the phrase "How many more sacks would he have" could be interpreted when he wrote that. It doesn't seem like it, but I want it to be true.
 
2013-04-02 01:35:40 PM

knbwhite: Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays


Insert pithy "rape culture" comment.
Unfortunately, our fairly prudish heterosexual culture has promoted the idea that people of the opposite gender should only be naked together if they are having sex for so long, that I don't think people in general could deal with that.  Nudists and homosexuals are two groups that could.
 
2013-04-02 02:18:53 PM

Frederick: Interesting the comments.
 
It used to be (IMO) the comments on gay issues were almost 50/50 pro/con.  But now it is decidedly more pro (as in support for gays).  Assuming this to be true; what accounts for the change?


Because most people don't give a fark?
 
2013-04-02 04:21:52 PM

knbwhite: Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays


So you think we should make homosexuals live in secrecy because straight men would be "uncomfortable" knowing that a man may be ogling him in a sexual manner.
 
2013-04-02 05:11:44 PM

Di Atribe: knbwhite: Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays

So you think we should make homosexuals live in secrecy because straight men would be "uncomfortable" knowing that a man may be ogling him in a sexual manner.


Basically, a large number of straight men are uncomfortable with the idea of being treated the way they treat women.
 
2013-04-02 05:17:17 PM

Kome: Basically, a large number of straight men are uncomfortable with the idea of being treated the way they treat women.


Funny how that works, isn't it?
 
2013-04-02 09:13:13 PM
The showering thing doesn't make a ton of sense to me either, kids are generally taught that boys and girls are different and use separate bathrooms, etc. since a young age. Homosexuals don't always understand their feelings or whatever before, during, after puberty, and they would've been showering/etc. with same-sex folks their whole lives. They aren't taught to see differently-preferenced kids as "other" (unless their parents are teaching them gay=evil).

If our society was less prudish and unisex bathrooms etc. were the norm from birth, this might be different. If males and females showered together regularly this might be different. Hard to say without having kids raised in that way, people talk about rape culture and I guess the "pointed" questions about Kluwe's wife/mom up there are intended to suggest that they would get ogled/raped? But that is if they turned a switch tomorrow and everyone raised a certain way was suddenly in a new environment (ie unisex showers) vs. someone raised from birth with that as typical.

If the football team had all showered with both genders their whole life, why would Kluwe care if his mom was there? They weren't, so it isn't really a sensible comparison IMO.
 
2013-04-02 09:35:49 PM

Di Atribe: knbwhite: Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays

So you think we should make homosexuals live in secrecy because straight men would be "uncomfortable" knowing that a man may be ogling him in a sexual manner.


No I don't think that.  I wish everyone was out and we could judge them on the content of their character.  I just request everyone who says we should be tolerant and considerate of others points of view and feelings realize it's a two-way street.  If others are allowed to tell me I shouldn't have any problem showering with gays then I get to tell Kluwe's mom she shouldn't have any problem showering with the team.
 
2013-04-02 10:04:47 PM

knbwhite: Di Atribe: knbwhite: Half serious.  Everyone says straights should have no problem showering with the gays, say, in the military or sports locker rooms.  Would he ridicule his mom if she was hesitant to?  After all, these highly paid young athletes wouldn't be interested in her since she is out of their target dating pool.  That's the argument my mom gave me when we were discussing gays in the military back in the Clinton term.

/realize have have unknowingly showered with gays

So you think we should make homosexuals live in secrecy because straight men would be "uncomfortable" knowing that a man may be ogling him in a sexual manner.

No I don't think that.  I wish everyone was out and we could judge them on the content of their character.  I just request everyone who says we should be tolerant and considerate of others points of view and feelings realize it's a two-way street.  If others are allowed to tell me I shouldn't have any problem showering with gays then I get to tell Kluwe's mom she shouldn't have any problem showering with the team.


If she's a member of the team?  Sure, absolutely.  Hell, I go to the gym and change and shower around complete strangers with no concern over their sexual identity.  So yeah, if Kluwe's mother was somehow able to be a member of the Vikings and wanted to shower after the game with her fellow co-workers, no problem.

If Kluwe believes that his teammates wouldn't be able to help themselves from molesting his mother if she was a teammate and showered with them, then he must not think well of his teammates.  I trust that when my wife is in the the gym locker room a random lesbian isn't going to suddenly maul her either.
 
2013-04-03 01:00:41 AM
My example of the shower is not about how Chris would feel about it, or if his mom is a member of the team so is therefore eligible to shower there.

To put it another way, suppose a woman(gay or straight) has a gym where she works out and showers afterward.  One day while she is getting ready to shower an announcement is made that the men's shower is broken.  At that same time a basketball game ends, and all the guys inform her they are heading to the womens shower.   IF she decides she would rather not be joined in the shower by a group of hetero men, would some of you criticize her for being such a prude or bigot?
 
2013-04-03 10:59:53 AM

knbwhite: My example of the shower is not about how Chris would feel about it, or if his mom is a member of the team so is therefore eligible to shower there.

To put it another way, suppose a woman(gay or straight) has a gym where she works out and showers afterward.  One day while she is getting ready to shower an announcement is made that the men's shower is broken.  At that same time a basketball game ends, and all the guys inform her they are heading to the womens shower.   IF she decides she would rather not be joined in the shower by a group of hetero men, would some of you criticize her for being such a prude or bigot?


But that's a question that doesn't related to this situation at all.

A sports team in compromised of people you know, who are your co-workers and who are overseen by a professional organization.  Your example is being put into a room full of random strangers who have no connection to the gym itself.  Would I think her a prude or a bigot in that situation?  Nope.  If a football player chose not to shower after a game because he was worried a gay football player might check him out, well he should report any uncomfortable sexual advances to HR, but I wouldn't think he was a bigot for showering later at home.  I'd think he'd probably smell though.

Do I think that a gay football player should hide or be ashamed of their sexual preference because another player might not be comfortable sharing a locker room with them?  Hell no.
 
2013-04-03 03:23:12 PM
Sweet Jesus can we just put curtains on the showers if it's that big of a deal? Is that really the only thing holding us back?
 
2013-04-03 08:43:44 PM

Di Atribe: Sweet Jesus can we just put curtains on the showers if it's that big of a deal? Is that really the only thing holding us back?


You didn't answer the question.  So are you saying that gays should have their feelings considered but not straight males?
 
2013-04-03 08:55:25 PM

knbwhite: Di Atribe: Sweet Jesus can we just put curtains on the showers if it's that big of a deal? Is that really the only thing holding us back?

You didn't answer the question.  So are you saying that gays should have their feelings considered but not straight males?


Do you think a person has to hide who they are because another teammate might be be uncomfortable with their personal life?

Like I said, your question isn't analogous to the situation.  Let gays be gays and let straights be straights.  If they can't be comfortable with who another person on their team chooses to date, then their priorities are farked.
 
2013-04-04 07:50:24 AM

knbwhite: Di Atribe: Sweet Jesus can we just put curtains on the showers if it's that big of a deal? Is that really the only thing holding us back?

You didn't answer the question.  So are you saying that gays should have their feelings considered but not straight males?


Their (straight males) feelings are being considered, and they're rightfully being considered ignorant.

The opinion that gays should be kept out of sports because having to shower with them would make others feel odd/uncomfortable or that it would somehow be a risk to their health and safety is downright silly or a dodge to try and clumsily hide homophobia.   It's the same as saying you wouldn't shower with people of the same sex but different race/ethnicity/religion because it makes you uncomfortable and you can't say for sure they wouldn't suddenly "do something" to you.  It's an ignorant opinion not based on any facts, and is being largely dismissed as not  convincing  for being factually and logically weak, not because it's coming from heterosexuals.

"Straight" opinion is being considered, and if that's the best they can come up with, it doesn't deserve much.
 
2013-04-04 02:48:14 PM

knbwhite: Di Atribe: Sweet Jesus can we just put curtains on the showers if it's that big of a deal? Is that really the only thing holding us back?

You didn't answer the question.  So are you saying that gays should have their feelings considered but not straight males?


Do you really feel discriminated against?
 
2013-04-04 04:14:34 PM
Ok, looks like I have Lumbar, LTR, and Di who nominate themselves, their mothers, sisters and daughters to share a shower with me.  No bigots or prudes allowed. I don't think anyone would try to "do something" to someone else, and I hope the rest of the party doesn't either.

I do not feel discriminated against per se, but I am getting the idea that opposing points of view are not being seriously considered because they are "wrong".   This goes for other sensitive topics too, such as abortion, gun control, etc. Surely the respect for the human rights of gays will get better before those issues settles down.

I'll tell you a little story I have mentioned on Fark before that gives an example of why I post in these threads.  My sister was visiting from the SF bay area a while back, and a commercial came on television about a dating service called Christian Mingle.  My sister gave it an eyeroll and a sarcastic chuckle.  I guess to her anyone who would participate in that deserves ridicule because they are just "wrong".
 
2013-04-04 10:45:54 PM

knbwhite: Ok, looks like I have Lumbar, LTR, and Di who nominate themselves, their mothers, sisters and daughters to share a shower with me.  No bigots or prudes allowed. I don't think anyone would try to "do something" to someone else, and I hope the rest of the party doesn't either.


Haha no. You are missing the point very much. You see, myself & my female family members that I love have not chosen to play a professional sport with open showers. But if I did, I'd probably either request a shower curtain or take my shower at a different time.

Seriously, your "objection" to this is that you're weirded that a gay dude might see your winky?

Also, any woman who's ever had a child has no sense of modesty anyway. Once you've had half the hospital's staff forearm up your hooha, you stop caring about who sees what.
 
2013-04-05 01:26:53 AM
Di, I think you are missing my point.  I think your comment about pro players chosing to play a sport with those type facilities is a deflection.  I'll try one more way.  After I had chosen to be in the military and later deployed for the first Gulf War, my mom and I had  a discussion about gays in the military.  She told me I should have no problem with gays because they aren't interested in my straight self anyway.  In response, I gave her the shower scenario as I have mentioned above.  I didn't have a choice about shower curtains and little flexibility on showering later.  I got a similar answer as yours.

It still seems you are saying that players that don't want to shower with gays have a problem, but you would not hop in yourself.  That's the kind of thinking I have a problem with.

Anyway, I suppose ball teams could afford a retrofit of their locker rooms to accomodate the future. As I said above, I expect the leagues will eventually be more accepting of gays, and I believe that is a positive.

Finally, I think this conversation has run its course, I do appreciate your point of view.
 
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