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(RedState)   If the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, such as not allowing gay marriage, then why the hell are we opposing Obamacare - which is the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done?   (redstate.com) divider line 120
    More: Interesting, obamacare, No Regrets, no compromise, protest vote, eternal life, same-sex marriages, Bob Dole, Biden  
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4072 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-03-31 03:28:53 PM  
14 votes:
I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.
2013-03-31 05:04:06 PM  
10 votes:
25.media.tumblr.com

Christianity is all about Single Payer
2013-03-31 05:53:52 PM  
8 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Didn't Jesus also have a problem with money lenders getting too close with religious leaders?


very much so.  in fact, Christ also had big issues with mixing wealth and religion in any manner.  he beat the snot outta bankers who set up shop outside the temple.  the megachurches in this country would have appalled him.
2013-03-31 05:47:57 PM  
8 votes:
I keep trying to explain to the GOP rank and file that if they wanna be christians they have to follow ALL of christ's commands - that includes healing the sick and helping the poor.  you can't be rich dickheads to people either - you gotta be really really nice to the people who are down on their luck.

none of them listen tho.  they just scream 'socalisms' and run away.
2013-03-31 04:58:29 PM  
7 votes:

GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.


There is actually some things, but they won't be particularly reassuring for the 'I got mine' crowd.


How about this:

Leviticus 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling-block before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

And this:

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

And more broadly speaking:

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, 'The seventh year, the year of release is near,' and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, 'You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.'

Also, it seems to me that Jesus ran a series of free walk-in clinics:

Matthew 4:23-24 And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people. So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them.
2013-03-31 02:43:01 PM  
7 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.
2013-03-31 07:29:16 PM  
5 votes:

skilbride: Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.


You have to understand my position on American Christianity which is that it's a two thousand year old, Jewish mystery cult that somehow managed to propagate its ideas at the expense of the other mystery cults of the time. You don't have original texts for your holy book (which you claim is divinely inspired) and the closer you get to the origin of the religion, the more contradictory the written accounts become. You worship an invisible entity for which there is no documented evidence that does not also exist for any number of other deities, demigods and saints. In the exercise of your faith you eschew compassion in favor of judgement and are more concerned with the possibility of accumulating merit for a promised afterlife than ensuring that suffering is relieved in the only life you actually have evidence of.

Explain to me why I should want to talk to you.
2013-03-31 07:17:49 PM  
4 votes:

skilbride: So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullshiat on that. About 70% if the US population self identifies as Christian and if 70% of the population were even marginally motivated to feed and put a roof over the head of the poor, we wouldn't have the poverty and homeless rates we have in this nation. Christians are all about "faith not works" and building churches the size of sports arenas. Sure, some of them may run a soup kitchen now and again but most of that "charity" is funneled back into the congregation or into the wallet of the clergy.
2013-03-31 03:39:30 PM  
4 votes:
The you go again, trying to use logic to understand the Christian right's thinking.
2013-03-31 08:20:37 PM  
3 votes:
Hobodeluxe:
the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.

it's also flat out heretical.  makes me really wish we could burn the megachurch pastors at the stake.

*sigh*

ah well.  best we can do is point out how corrupt and debased modern Christianity has become in this country.
2013-03-31 07:44:36 PM  
3 votes:

skilbride: The bible is our holy book. Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height of hypocrisy


How about if we just roll our eyes and "call you out" for being an allegedly sentient being in the 21st century who believes in a holy book? There are people in the world who are discovering amazing new real things every day, and a lot of us are tired of having to "respect" the magical thinking practiced by fearful idiots clutching a book of stories made up by illiterate shepherds as they crouched around a dung fire 2,000 years ago, making up stories to explain where the sun goes at night.
2013-03-31 07:31:15 PM  
3 votes:

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


Of course not. They worship mainly Paul's teachings, with a smidgen of Old Testament thrown in where it feels good.
2013-03-31 07:25:47 PM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society. People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.
2013-03-31 07:16:10 PM  
3 votes:

Fubini: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


I always liked Terry Pratchett's take on that one:

"The merest accident of microgeography had meant that the first man to hear the voice of Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world, and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led."
2013-03-31 07:08:25 PM  
3 votes:

skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.


I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.
2013-03-31 06:53:02 PM  
3 votes:
Matthew 25:31-46
New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.  32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world.  35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,  36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?  38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?  39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,  43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
2013-03-31 06:47:07 PM  
3 votes:
It's amusing that someone thinks Christians give a damn about what the Bible says.
2013-03-31 06:33:46 PM  
3 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


You're not being forced to buy it. As a society, we've decided we find it morally unacceptable to let indigent people die. Until today, the responsible consumers of healthcare - people like myself who have insurance - have paid the subsidy for that, and have allowed employers and individuals use the benefit of our good will, without expecting them to pay for it.

We're getting tired of it.

We're still not willing to let you, or your kids, just bleed out in the ER. But if you insist on calling yourself a member of our society, and you reap the benefits of it - our schools, our roads, our legal and market systems, we're going to ask you to pick up a portion of your tab.

If that's too socialist for you, can I suggest, perhaps, Somalia?
2013-03-31 06:25:39 PM  
3 votes:

Phil Moskowitz: What's Christian about putting vast sums of money in the insurance industry's pocket?


You're absolutely right.  Obamacare is a watered down half measure.  Single payer works for other countries and the wingnuts have given no reason it can't work here.
2013-03-31 05:52:22 PM  
3 votes:
Didn't Jesus also have a problem with money lenders getting too close with religious leaders?
2013-03-31 05:49:06 PM  
3 votes:
If, as the anti-SSM crowd would have it, the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, then pardon me, but what the H-E-double-hockey-sticks are we doing spending so much time, energy and effort fighting to overturn Obamacare? If the role of government is to enforce Biblical morality, isn't Obamacare - providing the security of medical insurance coverage to a multitude of poor, sick people who couldn't get it before, the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done??

Am I the only one who kept scrolling back up to the top of the page to make sure this was actually on Red State?

I kid but good on Erik the RedStater for promoting this "alternative" POV.
2013-03-31 02:30:51 PM  
3 votes:
The coloreds will be allowed to use it.
2013-03-31 10:48:50 PM  
2 votes:
jewmanist.com
2013-03-31 09:53:54 PM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: thismomentinblackhistory: But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.

They did? They actually gave money out of their pocket to individual sick people and handed out food to the hungry? Maybe a few of them took people in off the streets and offered them shelter and I completely missed that news cycle. Passing the bill is not a "good work" - if anything it's contrary to that because it forces people against their will.


I have done this.  Taken homeless lesbians off the street, given them a place to live, eat, wash themselves and their clothes....and time to and find jobs and a place for themselves to live.
BFD.
A gay man gave me a place to live when I was one inch from living in my car (even though employed at the time).
People help each other when they need it.
That's the point of having society.
2013-03-31 08:04:48 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: How can you hate Christian's as a whole and judge them as a group because they believe in the bible, and then espouse hatred towards them for judging people on their actions.


I don't want to speak for others in this thread, but I think much of the foundation of hatred for the Bible comes from the fact that between the Old Testament and Paul's epistles, Jesus's message of love tends to get thrown on the back burner. It's actually not a very big part of the Bible as a whole, comprising only four books and a fraction of a fifth.

If I were gay, I wouldn't like the Old Testament writers or Paul very much at all.

The other problem that nonChristian people tend to have with Christians is that many who call themselves Christians and say they believe in the Bible do so in such a way that their blind (and I mean to the exclusion of physical evidence) faith in their belief that the Bible is completely inerrant makes it so that it is difficult to convince them of anything to the contrary. My sister just filled out a science paper for her daughter explaining that the book of Genesis says the Earth was created first, and the "lesser lights of the night" weren't created until Day 4, therefore the science textbook that states Mercury formed before the Earth was incorrect. I have no patience with people that refuse to look at scientific evidence because it conflicts with their own previously held beliefs. I think if my sister were a few thousand years older she would be there holding the cup of hemlock for Socrates.
2013-03-31 07:51:03 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: Well, on a very base level, you should at least understand the different sects of Christianity.  For instance, at my Church, we do not believe that the bible is the divine word of God in a literal sense.  It is instead the inspired word of God - but subject to the flaws of men.  You take the good from it, and you exclude the contradictory.  It's a set of guidelines to live by, compassion, charity and faith in God.


Here's the problem with your position: your inspired word of God threatens eternal torture for anyone who does not demonstrate absolute submission. I'm not saying there aren't a few bits with good advice about compassion but those the Bible hardly has a copyright on that advice. What really comes through is the "submit to yahweh/jesus/holy_spirit or else" part.

And while it is possible that you could be right, and there could be no God, and that since there is no physical proof of that, I could be totally screwed, because I choose to live my life using those basic principals and teachings I have learned, I know that I am living a better life.  People use all sorts of crutches to make it through life, like alcohol, drugs, posting vitriol online on message boards because you are too intimated to do it in real life - but just like I would not judge you based on your crutch of poison, I would ask you not to judge me on mine.

I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.
2013-03-31 07:42:04 PM  
2 votes:

redmond24: Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.

There's a fine line between saying something provocative and saying something stupid. You crossed it.


most chrisitan organizations here in the US don't follow the teachings of Christ.  oh some do, and those are pretty awesome...but healing the sick?  helping the poor?  that's not something US christian organizations do much of anymore.  nope, they preach about gays, sin, hellfire and the evils of any faith but their own.
2013-03-31 07:39:11 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.


Absolutely right.  Jesus never said nothing about buying health care.
In fact, he made repeated and personal examples of how it should be handed out to whomever needed it, completely free of charge.
2013-03-31 07:28:56 PM  
2 votes:

Fubini: . Religious purity through murder is clearly an unbiblical thing to do.


uHH.. are we reading the same bible here? Because I'm pretty sure a sh*tload of middle easterners were sliced, diced, stabbed, burned, swallowed by the earth, and some pretty other farked up things for having the utter cheek to worship another god.
2013-03-31 07:26:05 PM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: jso2897: Yep - and that applies when they elect the executives who appoint the judges who often end up ruling on these matters, too.
Democracy - it's a biatch when your worn out value system is losing.


Personally I think the Court is going to strike down DOMA and let Prop 8 stand, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states. As for a "worn out value system losing ground" I don't think that it is, it might be losing ground on some areas but it's gaining ground on others. There are far worse things, in my mind, than two people of the same sex loving each other and all of them have contributed to the moral wasteland that we currently find ourselves in more than homosexuality.


Ironically, the main goals of the gay rights movement  thus far are themselves conservative: the right to serve in the military, the right to adopt and raise children, the right to marriage. Kind of funny.
2013-03-31 07:24:00 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?


Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?
2013-03-31 07:20:15 PM  
2 votes:

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


Bingo!
2013-03-31 07:18:52 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.

I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.

Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.


You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.
2013-03-31 07:12:56 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.

Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


OH NOES THEY MIGHT HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO BE CHRISTIAN!!

Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?
2013-03-31 07:12:36 PM  
2 votes:

skilbride: Never mind that I think there should be some sort of baseline healthcare (although I don't agree forcing us to pay insurance companies is the way to do it), nevermind that I actually think gays should be allowed to marry (and have picked a church that supports my views) but the mere fact that I believe in God, and Christ, has made me feel like - in these threads at least - even if I get into the nitty gritty and explain to you why the people really hate this kind of stuff, you would disregard and attack me because of my faith.


The loudest voices who proclaim their Christianity on the national level seem to follow espouse Prosperity Gospel and come nowhere close to following Jesus's example and teachings. If a you're a Christian who isn't here to tear down that abomination of faith, you're part of the problem, and deserve all the scorn you receive.

We already know how they contradict Christian values. What we can't stand is that so many other religious types defend people who call themselves Christian rather than people who actually practice Christian teachings. Their ideology is so toxic that there really is no defending it. If you support it at all, for any reason, even one as nebulous as the label "Christianity", you are too corrupt for anything but ridicule.
2013-03-31 07:11:00 PM  
2 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


Jesus never forbade his followers from engaging in politics or enacting laws that promote Christian values. He DOES command Christians to not pass judgement on others or to impose morality on others.

Scripturally, I can support the ACA because I'm a Christian and I think we should provide for the needy, but I can't support DOMA legislation because I think it's wrong that the gays are getting married. However, I shouldn't support the ACA because I think that all the heathens aren't doing enough to support the needy.

It's a fine line.
2013-03-31 07:08:33 PM  
2 votes:
Because they love the Almighty Dollar more than the Almighty God?

They beat their chests that they are Christian as long as being Christian doesn't mean that they actually have to make sacrifices. Because being an actual Jesus like Christian is hard work. It's easier to just slap one of those fish plates on your bumper and than to volunteer at the local soup kitchen or homeless shelter.

And I find the Christians that do without so that there fellow man can have as well as volunteer to help those less fortunate are less likely to brag about how Christian they are. I think it's because they don't have time to brag. They are busy being Christians.
2013-03-31 07:03:16 PM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: It's not Bigotry, and there *is* marriage equality. Nobody is telling any man that they can't marry a woman, or a woman that she can't marry a man. Everyone has the same right to get married.


Go fark yourself.
2013-03-31 06:58:19 PM  
2 votes:

KWess: GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.

There is actually some things, but they won't be particularly reassuring for the 'I got mine' crowd.


How about this:

Leviticus 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling-block before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

And this:

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

And more broadly speaking:

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, 'The seventh year, the year of release is near,' and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, 'You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.'

Also, it seems to me that Jesus ran a series of free walk-in clinics:

Matthew 4:23-24 And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people. So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by dem ...


The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.
2013-03-31 06:38:38 PM  
2 votes:
[sarcasm]Damn cripples messing up the line to salvation!!![/sarcasm]


i.imgur.com
2013-03-31 06:27:22 PM  
2 votes:

Amos Quito: Meanwhile back at the ranch...

[derp]


Hey everybody!!  Talk about what I want to talk about, not TFA!!1!
 
Good for TFA's author.  Lot's of good stuff...I particularly liked this:

Given the pattern of Jesus' own life on earth, can you really make the argument that he cares more about homosexuality than about the poor?

There is nothing "Christian" about being anti-marriage equality.  It's just raw, crass bigotry.
2013-03-31 06:24:16 PM  
2 votes:

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


If Jesus came back tomorrow, the troglodytes that inhabit RedState will be heading straight to Lowe's (Home Depot is too friendly towards teh ghey) to buy hammers, nails and 2x6es.
2013-03-31 06:20:50 PM  
2 votes:
What's Christian about putting vast sums of money in the insurance industry's pocket?
2013-03-31 06:19:31 PM  
2 votes:
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
2013-03-31 06:17:06 PM  
2 votes:

The_Forensicator: Great article.


I didn't expect to find anything I agree with in a Redstate article. I tripped over my own bias.
2013-03-31 06:13:37 PM  
2 votes:
I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection. And many of them don't spend a lot of time convincing the believers that they shouldn't believe in the resurrection.

The most interesting explanation I heard is Jesus was drugged and after 6 hours he was taken down alive. (Six hours isn't a lot of time to die by being crucified.) The materials taken to the tomb were medicines, he was healed up and beat cheeks out of the Middle East with his wife Mary.

But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.
2013-03-31 06:09:36 PM  
2 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


Are you seriously advocating that Christ was an anarchist who was against all laws period, or are you just a troll or mentally deficient little monkey?
2013-03-31 02:31:10 PM  
2 votes:
Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.
2013-03-31 02:21:18 PM  
2 votes:
we're having a nice schimp dinner.
2013-04-01 10:35:11 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


Even if the Gospel's admonition that healing is an INDIVIDUAL mandate, I only have so much money. I can't heal everyone who is sick. But I also happen to possess a vote, and when the choice comes between voting against healing them, or to vote for healing them, I as an individual cast it to heal.
2013-04-01 01:34:37 AM  
1 votes:
I find it hilarious so many of you are against health care reform because you would rather have people redistributing the wealth instead of government. THE GOVERNMENT IS FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!!! It is not a dictatorship, you can get involved and help shape it if it is not working to your liking.
2013-04-01 12:49:30 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: But the point remains that you can't legislate moral action.


See, this is what so many people don't understand: the whole point of government feeding the less fortunate within their society isn't to give you a warm snuggy wuggy feeling in your heart, it's because if you don't feed them, they will steal in order to eat and steal more in order to feed their children. Period. It will occur. Starving people will find a way to eat. Furthermore, having a bunch of well-fed individuals is good in times of a national emergency, when you need troops to fight a war, or at least people who can do simple jobs that don't require training like bring ammunition and supplies to the soldiers.

Not having hungry people all around you means you can sleep better at night. Did you learn nothing from the French Revolution? The whole "let them eat cake" thing? That's what happens to a society when its full of hungry people and there are others that have food but won't share.

It isn't about morality, it's about it being the best thing to do for the security of the population as a whole, and the security of the governmental leaders. Hungry people will f*cking kill you to get your food.
2013-04-01 12:34:34 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Derp. The world didn't know squat about free market individualism at that time. Jesus was preaching to individuals about individual morality, not corporations (which didn't exist then) or governments. As I said, morality is/must be individual action.

That is really a pretty basic concept in both philosophy and religion.


I have a slight problem with that statement.

From Matthew 25, New International Version, emphasis mine

14 "Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19 "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.'

21 "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22 "The man with two bags of gold also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.'

23 "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24 "Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

The purpose of Jesus' parables was to express a moral in a way that the people of the time could understand.

Soooo..... you were saying?
2013-03-31 11:06:59 PM  
1 votes:

shotglasss: I don't recall reading anywhere that Jesus forced people to do things they didn't want to do...messes up that whole free will concept.

Obamacare was forced on the majority of the country that didn't want it. That's not the way of the Jesus.

 
Except for the believe in me or go to hell part. Free will indeed.
 
Aside, healthcare reform was major plank of Obama's platform. It wasn't forced on anyone and didn't come out of the blue. America voted for it. Twice.
2013-03-31 10:51:21 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: How can you hate Christian's as a whole and judge them as a group


Get off the cross. When gays introduce legislation banning Christians from marrying, you'll have something to biatch about. Hear that clickity click? It's probably you typing that you don't have a problem with gays personally. Well, the institution you support sure as hell does.

You didn't ask for my advice but I'll offer it anyway. Instead of you whining to me about how we judge all Christians as hateful bigots, why don't you address your criticism to the Christians who are hateful bigots?

I'm fully aware that it's unfair for you to be held responsible for the entirety of Christianity. But it strikes me as kind of insensitive for you whine about people being nasty to you on Fark because you're a Christian when your fellow Christians are doing much MUCH worse to people in real life.

I am denied rights that other law abiding, tax paying American citizens enjoy as a matter of course. But ooh, someone was mean to you on Fark!
2013-03-31 10:14:08 PM  
1 votes:

Barricaded Gunman: It's not very surprising that men predisposed to mystic thinking and rigid religious authority would be understanding of a woman with similar beliefs. Think about it... if you met a guy who seemed great, then found out he was a Scientologist, wouldn't it change your perception of him? Just knowing that he really believed all their nutty things that someone made up? Well that's how Christians tend to come across to those of us who don't have that set of beliefs.


Uh, my wife's devoutly Christian.  I'm honestly agnostic.  Thanks for speaking for the rest of us, as if you have any idea how to be socially acceptable or how a society works.

/asshole
2013-03-31 10:12:38 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


And if you don't you'll be forced to suffer Eternal Damnation.
In Hell. The Inferno. Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

Churches are  collectives. They collect your money for 'good works' and threaten you with eternal suffering if you fail to comply.

You want to claim the virtue of Christianity without actually being Christian.
2013-03-31 10:09:50 PM  
1 votes:
Because it's not about being "Christ-like". It's about being a total arsehole and cherry picking the values you want to push on others based on your own misconceptions, ignorance and stupidity. Logic, facts and reasoning only get jn the way!!
2013-03-31 10:09:41 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: How presumptuous of you to assume that just because I'm Christian I'm not one of the people out there discovering amazing new things every day. Or that I don't appreciate science, etc etc.


I don't know you from Adam (heh) but use of phrases like "the bible is our holy book" is indicative of magical, wishful thinking. And all of the anti-science, teach the controversy, Noah's-ark-was-real cartoonery seems to be coming from people who self-identify as Christians. I'm sure there are plenty of people in the south who fly the confederate flag in celebration of history, but they get lumped in with the racist douchebags all the same. You might be working on the Hadron Collider, but if you identify with a religion known for its anti-science ideology, people are going to treat you differently.

skilbride:I tend to exclusively date middle eastern, Muslim men...I have faced less hate, and more understanding from THEM, no matter how devout they are, then I do from people who have no faith.

It's not very surprising that men predisposed to mystic thinking and rigid religious authority would be understanding of a woman with similar beliefs. Think about it... if you met a guy who seemed great, then found out he was a Scientologist, wouldn't it change your perception of him? Just knowing that he really believed all their nutty things that someone made up? Well that's how Christians tend to come across to those of us who don't have that set of beliefs.
2013-03-31 09:43:49 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


And thus the corporation was born.
2013-03-31 09:24:21 PM  
1 votes:

rohar: A Dark Evil Omen: rohar: Smelly McUgly: Monkeyhouse Zendo: skilbride: And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.

And that, my dear, is the best argument that there is no such being.

I think the best argument that there is no God is that God has not revealed him/her/itself to all of us in an unequivocally obvious manner.

Now, as a believer in God, this doesn't really matter, but I use my rational, observational side to vote and learn more about the world and my irrational (and that isn't a negative) inner self to pontificate on the nature of God.

As long as you're a good dude, Monkeyhouse, I think that's all that matters.

I cannot agree.

You see, there is no proof of the nonexistence of a thing.  To attempt to prove that a thing does not exist IS irrational.

"If the Higgs Boson does exist, why haven't we seen it before!?"  You see how dumb that is now, but it seemed to make sense 10 years ago.  Thank God scientists are more rational than that.

And yet, the Christian deity has less evidence for his existence than the luminiferous aether and more against it. So I suppose we can say that he is as likely to exist as the luminiferous aether, or the flat earth or the Hippocratic humors.

And you have a similar grasp of logic that a fence post exhibits.

Anyone.  Anyone who would suggest that the nonexistence of a thing can be proven has absolutely no history in algebra.  Logic obviously defies you.  I'm not suggesting you're wrong, only that you should negotiate this issue from another angle.  Maybe one you have some mastery of.


Why would anyone want to "prove" the nonexistence of "god" when it's irrelevance and impotence is so manifestly obvious?
2013-03-31 09:20:57 PM  
1 votes:

Kittypie070: No, I'm aware of that, it was expected that people would give a portion of their bounty to those with less.

If it was EXPECTED, it still does not pass the Kittypie Sniff Test of Free Will.


So, does a religious law that, as a worst possible form of punishment, can result in excommunication from the church and theoretical eternal damnation carry more weight than a secular law, the breach of which can result in property forfeiture and possible imprisonment?

In other words, is obedience of the religious law in its past or current context still "free will"? What about when you consider the implications of excommunication on one's position in society, and the possible condemnation of you by the church which would result in its other members denying patronage of your establishment, or refusing to hire you because of your unclean status? Still "free will"?
2013-03-31 09:18:23 PM  
1 votes:
I really don't want to model my government on a bronze age guy who probably didn't really exist, anyway.
2013-03-31 09:13:59 PM  
1 votes:
I sometimes think that The Bible may be the greatest cold reader in history. One person can say that you should help others any way you can, be tolerant and forgiving because it is in The Bible. Another person can condemn gay marriage, equality, and the care of those less fortunate because it is in The Bible.

I'll admit I'm not the most religious person, but if I were to take something from The Good Book, it would be the former.
2013-03-31 09:05:00 PM  
1 votes:
CanisNoir 2013-03-31 08:58:42 PM

Kittypie070: I don't think Canis Noir is aware that the Old Jewish religious law ORDERED people to give some sort of tithe for whatever religious purpose.

It wasn't left up to "well, maybe I will contribute if I feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel like it."


No, I'm aware of that, it was expected that people would give a portion of their bounty to those with less.

If it was EXPECTED, it still does not pass the Kittypie Sniff Test of Free Will.
2013-03-31 08:59:14 PM  
1 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


I don't remember JC mentioned the government forcing us to buy military protection or a civil defense, so let's call that particular argument a done deal, shall we?
2013-03-31 08:54:53 PM  
1 votes:
I don't think Canis Noir is aware that the Old Jewish religious law ORDERED people to give some sort of tithe for whatever religious purpose.

It wasn't left up to "well, maybe I will contribute if I feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel like it."
2013-03-31 08:53:58 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.


And that, my dear, is the best argument that there is no such being.
2013-03-31 08:49:17 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: I can understand that. I came to the churches teachings much later in life - neither of my parents or my grandparents attended church, so it was something that I discovered through other means. I met some really amazing people at the church I went to, and they are pretty liberal. (Even about the whole accepting Christ as your personal savior thing.) I'm not sure that I would hold up as well if I was involved in the Church of Christ.


The problem I have with the religious beliefs of my parents and their children is that they believe the church has a monopoly on ethics and morality, and they cannot see the need for these things outside of some reward for them in the afterlife. Thing is, I don't want to do good for my neighbor because I want a reward in heaven, or abstain from being bad to my neighbor because I fear eternal punishment in hell. To me, the whole punishment and reward thing takes away the whole altruistic nature of doing good in the first place.

After my parents tried the "well, if you don't know, don't you want to believe just in case" thing, I responded with, "I already answer for my deeds, to myself and those around me. If I have to answer for them again, then I don't want to go to a heaven where people are turned away because of their beliefs, when their actions are good."

I guess that's my own biggest problem with religion - I fear that if I get caught up in it again, I'll lose the whole idea of why I rejected it in the first place - the hypocrisy of a reward for altruism.
2013-03-31 08:40:24 PM  
1 votes:

Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.


Here's the thing, if you accept the doctrine of a resurrection and afterlife in paradise then you must also accept the doctrine eternal damnation of the non-believers. Same part of the book. Practically the same sentence. The problem with this is that if eternal torment is hanging in the balance, there can be no gray area in the rules on how to achieve one and avoid the other otherwise you have a supreme being consigning people to eternal torture for doubting a collection of writings that have undergone thousands of revisions, transcriptions, and translations. Some of those writings are known to be forgeries. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment unless the scriptures and their provenance were absolutely clear. If God/Jesus/Ghost exists, and I don't believe they do, they are monsters and Christians, as their worshipers, are the servants of monsters.
2013-03-31 08:37:10 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: Umm, yea....no. That's just complete horseshait. Not what you said, but what they're preaching. I don't see how that kind of bastardization could gain any lasting momentum within the various sects of Christianity. If God wanted his people to be prosperous and comfortable in this life time, he would have placed the Holy Land in a far better region of the world than smack dab in the middle of an arid region where it's difficult to grow shait. Jesus was poor, he preached to the poor and his preaching was about the Kingdom of Heaven appearing on Earth. Lots of people of the time misunderstood him and thought he was going to toss off the Roman yoke, be a political leader or a general leading a rebellion when, it seems to me, he was talking more about the personal struggle we each go through every day and despite being uncomfortable and not having nice things, know that God still loved us and being cool to our fellow peeps. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and I personally don't think Jesus meant that we'd be spotting Angels on every corner directing traffic.

So yea, I understand your derision of Prosperity Gospel and personally hope it gets trounced onto the fringes where it belongs.


Welcome to Atlanta. This is the main branch of World Changers Church International in Lithonia, GA, the "home" of the Reverend Creflo Dollar.

atlantablackstar.com

www.irwinseating.com

Here's a link: Atlanta (CNN) -- The arrest of Georgia megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar brought renewed attention to his message of the Prosperity Gospel, controversial to some and faith-fulfilling to its followers.

Dollar, who was arrested last week after allegedly assaulting his teenage daughter, is the founder and pastor of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta.

It claims about 30,000 members and has a multimillion-dollar sanctuary that resembles a golden-domed spaceship atop a hill.


Metro Atlanta has 3,000,000 people. That means that one man's ministry (not including the other people with Prosperity Gospel Ministries) has 1% of the population by itself. That's not "fringe".
2013-03-31 08:32:04 PM  
1 votes:

GoodyearPimp: Need proof that God hates gays?  Jesus was married and had TONS of heterosexual sex with his wife.  Oh, hang on.  It turns out he was unmarried and hung out with 12 dudes most of the time.  The straightest guy ever.


You know... That's something that has always pissed me off about Christianity.  Take the Sermon on the Mount, for instance... It's not like Jesus stood up there and said, "Gather everyone... Except you queers, we're having none of that shiat."  You know?

I thought the whole idea of Christianity was supposed to be as inclusive as possible?  Even to the people you don't like... Especially to the people you don't like or agree with.

I mean, I like an Old Testament vengeful God as much as the next guy and all, but I just have a hard time coming to grips in my personal faith that God will stand before someone to judge them and say, "You know... You lived your life pretty well and did well unto your fellow man, but that whole gay-sex between consenting adults means I have to send you straight to the hot place.  Sorry, bud."
2013-03-31 08:29:03 PM  
1 votes:

Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.


You do understand that believing the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God is definitely a tenet of a large portion of Christian denominations? And that a significant subset of these believe the Bible to be the LITERAL Word of God?

I understand that you're saying that this is not necessary in many denominations, and that you can follow the general ideas that Jesus gave and still call yourself a Christian, but in many places you pretty much are relegated to belief in the idea that the Bible is inerrant, or else Gog would not have allowed it to be here in its current form.

/circular logic
2013-03-31 08:28:50 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: Allow for more freedom and convince those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less, and they shall be doing "good works" and be blessed. It's a less cynical view of mankind in the sense that it's foundation is based upon the thought that people can and will be kind to their fellow man without having a loaded gun to their head or be threatened by jail time.


I know my outlook is impressively cynical but....

I believe your options are coercion or bribery when it comes to getting "those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less,".  Almost every single time I observe how things are decided by my leaders (and other leaders around the world) it boils down to either "lobbying" (our favorite euphemism for bribery) or "taxes, penalties, regulations, laws, and fees" (which are all methods of coercion).

And when I look back in history (even all the way back to ancient Sumeria) I find more and more examples of the same thing. Believe me I try (really I do) to avoid confirmation bias but I swear the examples of  exemplary  societies run on high amounts of freedom/individualism are few and far between. Most of the time those societies turn out to be some form of mafia ruling over a populace.

//I Just can't see the validity of anti-social solutions (going it alone, rugged individualism, bootstrapiness, etc..) in resolving societal problems.
//Maybe someday I will.
//Until then there is always the comfort of bourbon.
//Cheers!
2013-03-31 08:23:53 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: Early on in my faith, that was something I had a hard time dealing with. The Old Testament is real wrath of God type stuff, God pretty much hates us. Then Jesus comes along and says, "No, God loves us." While I was defining my faith, I had to reconcile the two because it definitely reads like an abusive relationship to me. (Here, let me hit you, but then tomorrow I'm gonna hug you and say everything is all right.)

I understand the problem with the people who refuse to look at science as well. I get frustrated with that too - but the only way to reach them is through understanding and talking with them. One of the girls in my bible study actually used to be like that - and a year later we've totally changed her mind through rational discussion. :)


The thing that broke it for me was the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son Isaac. I'm not following a god that expects me to kill an innocent human being because he said so. I can't get into the whole "love God more than anything" thing, because that implies that I should be selfless, but God has the right to be selfish. I just can't follow a god like that. Jesus had nothing but praise for the Old Testamnet god, so I'm not about to act like he was anyone special.

Thing is, Jesus had some really good advice. He shared some great ideas, and I think he made a difference in the world. Then Paul came along with his weird sexual fixations and turned what Jesus said (and what Jesus didn't say) on its ear. It's all been retranslated so many times that it is silly to examine the minutae. I like the message of loving one another, but every single church I've ever known always tries to bury itself into the smallest things and suggest that those who reject the divinity of Jesus, even if they agree with his message, are not ones who share their ideas.

I grew up in the Church of Christ, one of those ultra-conservative religions that doesn't even do instrumental music. I started rejecting it in my late teens, and finally decided to start calling myself an atheist about 10 years later.
2013-03-31 08:23:13 PM  
1 votes:

Smelly McUgly: What I like about Christianity is that it should not have the same issues as Islam. In Islam, one HAS to take the Qu'ran at its word because Muhammad was divinely-inspired when he wrote it.

In Christianity, there is no such tenet! Hell, any Christian that knows anything about history has a good knowledge of the wrangling that the church went through in terms of which books to add to the New Testament. On top of that, Jesus spends most of his time in the NT calling out church leaders for being too much into Leviticus and not enough into, you know, being kind to the people and giving as God would have them give.


RIGHT?!  Like okay, the bible says the first church was in a womans house.  Are you REALLY going to tell me that Jesus was ALLL about preaching in womens houses and not one them wrote it down?  Nope, some old men decided their writings weren't important.
2013-03-31 08:20:37 PM  
1 votes:

TsukasaK: That sentence contains three very positive assertions of which you cannot prove.

1. There is no afterlife.
2. You will never live again.
3. Believing in an afterlife causes some negative effect to the life you're living now.


1. I have no evidence that there is any consciousness after the death of the body. All evidence supports the position that consciousness is a function of an operating brain and no consciousness has been observed in the absence of a functioning brain. Based on this I'm reasonably comfortable making the assertion that when my brain stops functioning, what I perceive as "me" will cease.

2. The component parts of my body will be incorporated into other living things but there is no evidence that my consciousness will exist after the death of my brain nor has any mechanism been detected which would support the persistence of my consciousness after death.

3. That, I'll grant you. While the belief in an afterlife does not prevent one from living the one life they have evidence of to the fullest, when that belief comes attached to a system of other beliefs that demand that enjoyment of this life be eschewed in favor of the one to come then it is likely that belief in that afterlife will result in a life less lived.
2013-03-31 08:19:21 PM  
1 votes:

sugardave: There's only one?!


ox45tallboy: It's basically the belief that God loves you and wants you to be prosperous in this lifetime. It also means that living comfortably and ownership of material things is a sign of Jesus's love.


Umm, yea....no. That's just complete horseshait. Not what you said, but what they're preaching. I don't see how that kind of bastardization could gain any lasting momentum within the various sects of Christianity. If God wanted his people to be prosperous and comfortable in this life time, he would have placed the Holy Land in a far better region of the world than smack dab in the middle of an arid region where it's difficult to grow shait. Jesus was poor, he preached to the poor and his preaching was about the Kingdom of Heaven appearing on Earth. Lots of people of the time misunderstood him and thought he was going to toss off the Roman yoke, be a political leader or a general leading a rebellion when, it seems to me, he was talking more about the personal struggle we each go through every day and despite being uncomfortable and not having nice things, know that God still loved us and being cool to our fellow peeps. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and I personally don't think Jesus meant that we'd be spotting Angels on every corner directing traffic.

So yea, I understand your derision of Prosperity Gospel and personally hope it gets trounced onto the fringes where it belongs.
2013-03-31 08:10:15 PM  
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: I don't want to speak for others in this thread, but I think much of the foundation of hatred for the Bible comes from the fact that between the Old Testament and Paul's epistles, Jesus's message of love tends to get thrown on the back burner. It's actually not a very big part of the Bible as a whole, comprising only four books and a fraction of a fifth.

If I were gay, I wouldn't like the Old Testament writers or Paul very much at all.

The other problem that nonChristian people tend to have with Christians is that many who call themselves Christians and say they believe in the Bible do so in such a way that their blind (and I mean to the exclusion of physical evidence) faith in their belief that the Bible is completely inerrant makes it so that it is difficult to convince them of anything to the contrary. My sister just filled out a science paper for her daughter explaining that the book of Genesis says the Earth was created first, and the "lesser lights of the night" weren't created until Day 4, therefore the science textbook that states Mercury formed before the Earth was incorrect. I have no patience with people that refuse to look at scientific evidence because it conflicts with their own previously held beliefs. I think if my sister were a few thousand years older she would be there holding the cup of hemlock for Socrates.


Early on in my faith, that was something I had a hard time dealing with.  The Old Testament is real wrath of God type stuff, God pretty much hates us.  Then Jesus comes along and says, "No, God loves us."  While I was defining my faith, I had to reconcile the two because it definitely reads like an abusive relationship to me.  (Here, let me hit you, but then tomorrow I'm gonna hug you and say everything is all right.)

I understand the problem with the people who refuse to look at science as well.  I get frustrated with that too - but the only way to reach them is through understanding and talking with them.  One of the girls in my bible study actually used to be like that - and a year later we've totally changed her mind through rational discussion.  :)
2013-03-31 08:07:09 PM  
1 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?


insofar as you had a choice to follow his teachings or not yes. but let's consider what his true message was in a meta fashion. that for society to ever achieve nirvana that one must care for others more than themselves and be willing to sacrifice all for a stranger.
that was his example. that was his lesson.
2013-03-31 08:02:32 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Your profile indicates you are not a "deep" thinker.


Says the guy who actually believes that Jesus cared more about free market individualism than helping the poor.
2013-03-31 08:00:28 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: It just seems to me that you have a very incomplete idea of American Christianity, it's history, it's works and it's beliefs and therefore are not basing your opinion on much that is factual.


CanisNoir: I'm not sure what "Prosperity Gospel" is, but it sounds pretty shaitty just on it's face, so I for one will say screw Prosperity Gospel.


We're supposed to believe you're an expert on American Christianity, but you've never heard of prosperity gospel?  Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
2013-03-31 07:57:37 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.


Or, I'm enriching it but living in a way that benefits those around me?

Listen, if you want to seriously sit down and talk and learn to how I got here from where I was (which wasn't all that different from you) in 28 years, I can.  For years I doubted faith (all faiths) but over the course of my late 20's, I've come to a place where I am through letting my faith guide me.  Since then my life has changed for the better, and I believe. (I spent a significant amount of time in my early 20's attending al-anon meetings at a local episcopal church, and that's how I got involved.)

Like I said, I picked a church that doesn't contradict my views.  The episcopal church will be having gay marriages in the National Cathedral this year!  We welcome anyone, gay, straight, black, white, drunk, sober, who cares!  We welcome you, and will help you if you need it, and if you want to talk about the true teachings and hear what we believe, we are more than willing. :)

But I don't think I am wasting my life now by believing in God.
2013-03-31 07:56:24 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: I stated it shouldn't be considered a "good work" because it's removing a persons free will.


You don't get "free will" on whether you pay the rest of your taxes or not, either. There are costs to living in a society, after all. In this case, I'd argue the greater good is served.
2013-03-31 07:47:22 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Didn't Jesus also have a problem with money lenders getting too close with religious leaders?

very much so.  in fact, Christ also had big issues with mixing wealth and religion in any manner.  he beat the snot outta bankers who set up shop outside the temple.  the megachurches in this country would have appalled him.


He didn't even get pissed at *SATAN*. But the money lenders? He was pissed.
2013-03-31 07:46:29 PM  
1 votes:
Half of the people there in the comments disagreeing because of what the OT says are probably wearing mixed fabric clothing and enjoy pork, crab, and lobster.

The quicker that all Christians can all look at the OT and see an outdated blueprint for establishing a standing society out of a nomadic tribe, the better off we all will be.
2013-03-31 07:41:57 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states


An actual libertarian would be concerned with actual *individual" rights rather than some imagined arbitrary collectivism, don't you think?
2013-03-31 07:40:36 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: Okay, so let's talk about that. If the job of government is to help people in that sense, wouldn't it make sense to regulate health costs then? Instead of doing that, ObamaCare just forces us to buy insurance. They should be regulating the costs associated with healthcare.

The major reason why single payer works out of the United States is not because people pay into it - but because countries say to the people who provide the healthcare and healthcare supplies, "We will not pay a penny over this amount, or you can go fark yourself." If the government regulated that similar to how European countries did - wouldn't that be a better step in the right direction?


Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. However, there is no way in this world that Congress in 2009 was going to agree with that, period. The Republicans would have shut down government before letting anyone mention the word "single payer".

Obamacare is not in any sense some magical solution to health care in the United States. It will come with its own set of problems that no one is even imagining right now. BUT it is a step in the right direction. It is better than what we had.

I agree that price controls by large purchasers are the way to go. One way that might be accomplished is exactly how it is done now, with larger insurers agreeing to pay only a certain amount for particular treatments, or else force all of their insured to seek treatment at an alternate facility or from a different doctor. The main foreseeable problem is that with health insurance profits set to a percentage of income, it is actually financially beneficial for the health insurance companies to pay MORE rather than LESS for most treatments, in the same way a "cost plus" contract with the government will skyrocket over budget immediately.

But yes, single payer is a much better system than Obamacare. But Obamacare is better than the status quo in the US.
2013-03-31 07:40:03 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?

You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


So are you basically saying that Christianity doesn't actually care if poor people are given food and shelter, but that it only cares if about the act of giving freely? Christian morality is not about actual, tangible suffering of people with need?
2013-03-31 07:36:54 PM  
1 votes:
FTFA: Hopefully, the above is enough to establish my Christian, conservative bona fides (and yes, the order of those adjectives is deliberate)

When you think about how much time and energy the authot had to spend to verify said credentials, it tells you what the problem is: the fact that an idea cannot stand alone on it own merits. The source communicator must also be ideologically pristine. Interestingly enough, other than the author's own self-id as such, there is nothing about those statements he made that a conservative Jew or Muslim could not have also said.
2013-03-31 07:36:11 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: skilbride: Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.

You have to understand my position on American Christianity which is that it's a two thousand year old, Jewish mystery cult that somehow managed to propagate its ideas at the expense of the other mystery cults of the time. You don't have original texts for your holy book (which you claim is divinely inspired) and the closer you get to the origin of the religion, the more contradictory the written accounts become. You worship an invisible entity for which there is no documented evidence that does not also exist for any number of other deities, demigods and saints. In the exercise of your faith you eschew compassion in favor of judgement and are more concerned with the possibility of accumulating merit for a promised afterlife than ensuring that suffering is relieved in the only life you actually have evidence of.

Explain to me why I should want to talk to you.


Well, on a very base level, you should at least understand the different sects of Christianity.  For instance, at my Church, we do not believe that the bible is the divine word of God in a literal sense.  It is instead the inspired word of God - but subject to the flaws of men.  You take the good from it, and you exclude the contradictory.  It's a set of guidelines to live by, compassion, charity and faith in God.

And while it is possible that you could be right, and there could be no God, and that since there is no physical proof of that, I could be totally screwed, because I choose to live my life using those basic principals and teachings I have learned, I know that I am living a better life.  People use all sorts of crutches to make it through life, like alcohol, drugs, posting vitriol online on message boards because you are too intimated to do it in real life - but just like I would not judge you based on your crutch of poison, I would ask you not to judge me on mine.
2013-03-31 07:34:13 PM  
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society.


The problem is, the article was speaking strictly from a Theological perspective, and I disagree with the authors assertions.

People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.

There will always be inequality in a society that is free, the goal is to walk the line close enough so that there is as little inequality as possible while still allowing for the most freedom. Life isn't fair, and we don't all have equal amounts of talents in equal things, that's just the way it is. That is the whole "theological" side of the debate on Health Care. Allow for more freedom and convince those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less, and they shall be doing "good works" and be blessed. It's a less cynical view of mankind in the sense that it's foundation is based upon the thought that people can and will be kind to their fellow man without having a loaded gun to their head or be threatened by jail time.
2013-03-31 07:30:04 PM  
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: CanisNoir: You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.

So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society. People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.


Okay, so let's talk about that.  If the job of government is to help people in that sense, wouldn't it make sense to regulate health costs then?  Instead of doing that, ObamaCare just forces us to buy insurance.  They should be regulating the costs associated with healthcare.

The major reason why single payer works out of the United States is not because people pay into it - but because countries say to the people who provide the healthcare and healthcare supplies, "We will not pay a penny over this amount, or you can go fark yourself."  If the government regulated that similar to how European countries did - wouldn't that be a better step in the right direction?
2013-03-31 07:29:49 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: thismomentinblackhistory: But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.

They did? They actually gave money out of their pocket to individual sick people and handed out food to the hungry? Maybe a few of them took people in off the streets and offered them shelter and I completely missed that news cycle. Passing the bill is not a "good work" - if anything it's contrary to that because it forces people against their will.


I just don't see how a legislator passing bills in the best interest of the electorate could be the opposite of "good work." They may do the direct action you mention in their daily lives, but shouldn't everyone try to do "good work" in their professional capacity as well?
2013-03-31 07:28:30 PM  
1 votes:

skilbride: Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.

Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


Yeah but that's only if you say "Government is helping the poor so I'll just sit on my ass and take the easy train to heaven." You're still free to be Christ like even if the government isn't purposely punishing poor people for being poor.
2013-03-31 07:23:05 PM  
1 votes:

CanisNoir: sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?

You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.
2013-03-31 07:21:01 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.

So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.


What's more, if you look at the Mosaical Law from the Old Testament, you will see that such things as leaving part of the crop at harvest for the poor to glean was not just religious tradition, it was the secular law as well, and one could be punished by society for failing to perform this act of charity.
2013-03-31 07:20:52 PM  
1 votes:

sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.


Where exactly did I threaten you?
2013-03-31 07:17:53 PM  
1 votes:

Sergeant Grumbles: The loudest voices who proclaim their Christianity on the national level seem to follow espouse Prosperity Gospel and come nowhere close to following Jesus's example and teachings. If a you're a Christian who isn't here to tear down that abomination of faith, you're part of the problem, and deserve all the scorn you receive.

We already know how they contradict Christian values. What we can't stand is that so many other religious types defend people who call themselves Christian rather than people who actually practice Christian teachings. Their ideology is so toxic that there really is no defending it. If you support it at all, for any reason, even one as nebulous as the label "Christianity", you are too corrupt for anything but ridicule.


I'm not defending anyone - I'm Episcopalian - we are pretty much the most liberal church to exist within the three major faiths.  But what I am saying that is I don't appreciate you saying that because I believe in the bible, and Christ as my savior, that I'm too corrupt for anything but ridicule.
2013-03-31 07:17:23 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


There's a fine line between saying something provocative and saying something stupid. You crossed it.
2013-03-31 07:13:55 PM  
1 votes:

sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.

I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.


Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.
2013-03-31 07:12:01 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.



While we're at it, can we look at Christ's teachings on homosexuality and gay marriage?

That should take about the same amount of time.
2013-03-31 07:09:57 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.


Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.
2013-03-31 07:06:30 PM  
1 votes:
Seriously, subby? Are you really trying to make sense of what people think they want? Here's all the sense there is about it: People who oppose gay marriage oppose it because religion, or their parents, told them gays are evil. People who oppose Obamacare oppose it because the Tea Party and other political organs of the ultra-rich have told them anything Obama does is evil. People are gullible and don't think much, but they have exceedingly tenacious opinions.
2013-03-31 07:04:19 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.
2013-03-31 07:04:16 PM  
1 votes:

sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!


I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.
2013-03-31 07:02:43 PM  
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.


I've been a Christian my entire life and I've never heard anyone who self-identified as a Christian take that point of view. I don't believe that there are "a lot" of Christian leaders who reject it.

There have been a lot of Christian heresies, but very few of them reject the divinity of Jesus. At that point you're not really Christian anymore.
2013-03-31 07:01:13 PM  
1 votes:

balloot: It's amusing that someone thinks Christians give a damn about what the Bible says.


The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve.
2013-03-31 06:55:41 PM  
1 votes:
Hi!  Christian over here!

I really want to talk politics with you guys, but I don't feel like I can particularly   It's not that I am a person who goes around trying to convince people to join my church, or I spend a lot of time talking about my personal relationship with God... but I get the feeling that among the liberal crowd in fark I'm not welcome.

Never mind that I think there should be some sort of baseline healthcare (although I don't agree forcing us to pay insurance companies is the way to do it), nevermind that I actually think gays should be allowed to marry (and have picked a church that supports my views) but the mere fact that I believe in God, and Christ, has made me feel like - in these threads at least - even if I get into the nitty gritty and explain to you why the people really hate this kind of stuff, you would disregard and attack me because of my faith.

So if you really want to know, I can tell you how it contradicts with the Christian values - but if you're just trolling and getting on the Christian hate train, I won't waste my breath.
2013-03-31 06:55:34 PM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Meanwhile back at the ranch...


The Supreme Court ruled it constitutional. What are you whining about?
2013-03-31 06:52:49 PM  
1 votes:

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?


No, he didn't.
2013-03-31 06:47:30 PM  
1 votes:

gingerjet: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

To be fair - no one made it to age 34 in JC's time.


Actually, average life expectancy was very low in ancient times because of extraordinarily high infant mortality. If you were sturdy enough to make it into adulthood you had a pretty decent chance of living into old age. Not as high a chance as today, nor as old as you'd be today, but older than 34 to be sure.
2013-03-31 06:45:30 PM  
1 votes:

The_Forensicator: neongoats: But Obamers a muslin and GWB was the BESTEST PREZ EVAR EXCEPT RAGAN SO THE MUD PPL musT DIE of AIDS in teh ghetto streets.

Huh?

Obama is against single payer, despite your odd little meltdown there.  Well, he was for it once.  Then he was kinda so-so on the idea, then it was no.  A bit like SSM really.


I don't care what Obama's position on health care is. I care that GOP obstructionism is primarily what tanked any real health care reform and gave us this castrated half measure that is really just a a good long handjob for big insurance.
2013-03-31 06:39:31 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.


Give to God what is God's. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
2013-03-31 06:31:13 PM  
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection.


The oldest versions of the oldest gospel Mark end at the empty tomb verse 16:8.
2013-03-31 06:20:42 PM  
1 votes:
Finally a farked up headline that didn't author.
2013-03-31 06:19:45 PM  
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection. And many of them don't spend a lot of time convincing the believers that they shouldn't believe in the resurrection.

The most interesting explanation I heard is Jesus was drugged and after 6 hours he was taken down alive. (Six hours isn't a lot of time to die by being crucified.) The materials taken to the tomb were medicines, he was healed up and beat cheeks out of the Middle East with his wife Mary.

But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.


Read "The Passover Plot"  It describes Jesus being drugged with concoction that would mask death (like in Romeo and Juliet) Then he was taken down and healed. Wala.

/Honestly I don't know what happened. I wasn't there
2013-03-31 06:16:53 PM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Meanwhile back at the ranch...

[www.politicalnewsnow.com image 585x378]

"Render unto Caesar..."


You get your quotes from comics? Explains a bit.
2013-03-31 06:05:04 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Didn't Jesus also have a problem with money lenders getting too close with religious leaders?

very much so.  in fact, Christ also had big issues with mixing wealth and religion in any manner.  he beat the snot outta bankers who set up shop outside the temple.  the megachurches in this country would have appalled him.


Yeah, but this case is different because gay people are icky. Jesus certainly didn't mention anything about being nice to people different from yourself.
2013-03-31 03:11:30 PM  
1 votes:
There is a very good blah explanation for that subs.

A very blah one indeed.
 
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