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(RedState)   If the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, such as not allowing gay marriage, then why the hell are we opposing Obamacare - which is the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done?   (redstate.com) divider line 522
    More: Interesting, obamacare, No Regrets, no compromise, protest vote, eternal life, same-sex marriages, Bob Dole, Biden  
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4072 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-31 08:25:52 PM

skilbride: Where do you live?  For instance, I'm just outside Washington, DC - I never have people come to my door, and like I said earlier in the thread, this thread is actually the first time I've talked about my faith outside of my church or when I was trying to figure out how I could merge it with my muslim boyfriend.  I wonder if maybe, the area in which people live and the faiths that are found there have a way of shaping views.


I've lived in Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, San Francisco, Chicago and most recently Fayetteville, AR. The only place I can't recall getting door to door afterlife salesmen was Santa Barbara.
 
2013-03-31 08:28:49 PM

Smelly McUgly: In Christianity, there is no such tenet! Hell, any Christian that knows anything about history has a good knowledge of the wrangling that the church went through in terms of which books to add to the New Testament


The ones that really know that history are aware that those early scripture wranglers knew that the gospels we currently consider canon were forgeries.
 
2013-03-31 08:28:50 PM

CanisNoir: Allow for more freedom and convince those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less, and they shall be doing "good works" and be blessed. It's a less cynical view of mankind in the sense that it's foundation is based upon the thought that people can and will be kind to their fellow man without having a loaded gun to their head or be threatened by jail time.


I know my outlook is impressively cynical but....

I believe your options are coercion or bribery when it comes to getting "those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less,".  Almost every single time I observe how things are decided by my leaders (and other leaders around the world) it boils down to either "lobbying" (our favorite euphemism for bribery) or "taxes, penalties, regulations, laws, and fees" (which are all methods of coercion).

And when I look back in history (even all the way back to ancient Sumeria) I find more and more examples of the same thing. Believe me I try (really I do) to avoid confirmation bias but I swear the examples of  exemplary  societies run on high amounts of freedom/individualism are few and far between. Most of the time those societies turn out to be some form of mafia ruling over a populace.

//I Just can't see the validity of anti-social solutions (going it alone, rugged individualism, bootstrapiness, etc..) in resolving societal problems.
//Maybe someday I will.
//Until then there is always the comfort of bourbon.
//Cheers!
 
2013-03-31 08:28:56 PM
you guys care way too much about magic
 
2013-03-31 08:28:56 PM
The inability of people who follow scripture to understand scripture never ceases to amaze me.

Charity and compassion is not now nor will it ever be using the police power of government to forcefully take assets from one person so that they may be spent as the government sees fit. Even if the government program is benevolent.

And ObamaCare is not benevolent.
 
2013-03-31 08:29:01 PM

Hobodeluxe: ox45tallboy: Hobodeluxe: the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.


twimg0-a.akamaihd.net

Our culture has accepted two huge lies.  The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them.  The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do.  Both are nonsense.
You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.


/broken clock, etc.
 
2013-03-31 08:29:03 PM

Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.


You do understand that believing the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God is definitely a tenet of a large portion of Christian denominations? And that a significant subset of these believe the Bible to be the LITERAL Word of God?

I understand that you're saying that this is not necessary in many denominations, and that you can follow the general ideas that Jesus gave and still call yourself a Christian, but in many places you pretty much are relegated to belief in the idea that the Bible is inerrant, or else Gog would not have allowed it to be here in its current form.

/circular logic
 
2013-03-31 08:30:22 PM

CanisNoir: I've always looked at that difference as one of the reasons Christians needed to split from the Jewish Faith; you know, that and the acceptance of Non-Jews into Gods Kingdom. Jesus was reinterpreting the Old Testament in a way, which is why the Jewish priests were threatened by him. It's not that God changed from the Old Testament to the New, but our understanding of Him did. You also have to take into account that each Gospel was written with a certain political bias depending upon the time it was written, which is why there are differences in them. They are each attempting to convey their own thoughts on what God wanted, to the Jews of the time.

Just my personal opinion mind you.


Yes, that is exactly the opinion I came to as well.  :)  Also, it has been interesting how my learning of the Muslim faith and tenants have shaped my view on Christianity. My relationship with Him is ever evolving.

ox45tallboy: Thing is, Jesus had some really good advice. He shared some great ideas, and I think he made a difference in the world. Then Paul came along with his weird sexual fixations and turned what Jesus said (and what Jesus didn't say) on its ear. It's all been retranslated so many times that it is silly to examine the minutae. I like the message of loving one another, but every single church I've ever known always tries to bury itself into the smallest things and suggest that those who reject the divinity of Jesus, even if they agree with his message, are not ones who share their ideas.

I grew up in the Church of Christ, one of those ultra-conservative religions that doesn't even do instrumental music. I started rejecting it in my late teens, and finally decided to start calling myself an atheist about 10 years later.


I can understand that.  I came to the churches teachings much later in life - neither of my parents or my grandparents attended church, so it was something that I discovered through other means.  I met some really amazing people at the church I went to, and they are pretty liberal.  (Even about the whole accepting Christ as your personal savior thing.)   I'm not sure that I would hold up as well if I was involved in the Church of Christ.
 
2013-03-31 08:30:27 PM
Because rabid Tenthersgarbl.
 
2013-03-31 08:31:36 PM

randomjsa: The inability of people who follow scripture to understand scripture never ceases to amaze me.

Charity and compassion is not now nor will it ever be using the police power of government to forcefully take assets from one person so that they may be spent as the government sees fit. Even if the government program is benevolent.

And ObamaCare is not benevolent.


Libertarianism is a religion.
 
2013-03-31 08:31:49 PM

CanisNoir: Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.

Of course he cared, his ministry was primarily to the poor and downtrodden, however, he didn't expect Rome or The Temple to provide the food and roof, he wanted people to do it out of their own love of their fellow man, on an individual basis. His message wasn't "Do what Cesar says and you shall go to Heaven" - it was "Do as The Lord God commands and you shall go to heaven."

He wasn't too fond of the Jewish priest class at the time as he felt they were part of the problem, and instead focused on people individually connecting with God.


Well, you can't have a "Christian" nation without having the government follow Christ's teaching, now can you?
 
2013-03-31 08:32:04 PM

GoodyearPimp: Need proof that God hates gays?  Jesus was married and had TONS of heterosexual sex with his wife.  Oh, hang on.  It turns out he was unmarried and hung out with 12 dudes most of the time.  The straightest guy ever.


You know... That's something that has always pissed me off about Christianity.  Take the Sermon on the Mount, for instance... It's not like Jesus stood up there and said, "Gather everyone... Except you queers, we're having none of that shiat."  You know?

I thought the whole idea of Christianity was supposed to be as inclusive as possible?  Even to the people you don't like... Especially to the people you don't like or agree with.

I mean, I like an Old Testament vengeful God as much as the next guy and all, but I just have a hard time coming to grips in my personal faith that God will stand before someone to judge them and say, "You know... You lived your life pretty well and did well unto your fellow man, but that whole gay-sex between consenting adults means I have to send you straight to the hot place.  Sorry, bud."
 
2013-03-31 08:32:49 PM

ox45tallboy: Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.

You do understand that believing the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God is definitely a tenet of a large portion of Christian denominations? And that a significant subset of these believe the Bible to be the LITERAL Word of God?

I understand that you're saying that this is not necessary in many denominations, and that you can follow the general ideas that Jesus gave and still call yourself a Christian, but in many places you pretty much are relegated to belief in the idea that the Bible is inerrant, or else Gog would not have allowed it to be here in its current form.

/circular logic


Oh, I do understand this. I am just saying that we don't HAVE to treat the Bible like this.

Does it matter in the end? Some folks, I feel, just want to be led, and some particularly odious people are going to part those folks with their mammon under the guise of following the Word of God.

I'm a Kierkegaardian at heart, so I have what I would gather most practicing Christians in America would find to be a way-out-there view on Christianity.
 
2013-03-31 08:34:40 PM

Hobodeluxe: etc etc etc


That last picture made me spit soda out of my mouth. That anyone thought that would be a good marketing idea... holy wow. That's just comical.
 
2013-03-31 08:35:20 PM

TsukasaK: 3. Believing in an afterlife causes some negative effect to the life you're living now.


Realize you are not speaking to me here but thought I'd take a crack at that one.

My fear is that people who are utterly convinced in there being justice in the afterlife content themselves with that belief and spend less time striving for real social justice on earth in the only life we know we get.

That carefully noted, I also find a lot of the reflexive Christian bashing on threads like these to be almost as annoying as the bible thumping it's supposedly countering.

For all it's faults the essential message of Christianity (ie The Golden Rule) has value.

One doesn't need God to believe that people should treat each other well but people who do believe in God *and* the Golden Rule don't need to be mocked or mischaracterized.

It would appear from her posts that Skilbride is one of the good Christians who's gone to great lengths to find a church that doesn't work to disenfranchise others and for that I am thankful. I believe modern religion is capable of reforming itself and that it is in the process of doing so. I also think that encouraging that process is a better use of people's time than blanket condemnation.

/Atheist/Recovering Catholic.
 
2013-03-31 08:36:06 PM

Ontos: You know... That's something that has always pissed me off about Christianity.  Take the Sermon on the Mount, for instance... It's not like Jesus stood up there and said, "Gather everyone... Except you queers, we're having none of that shiat."  You know?

I thought the whole idea of Christianity was supposed to be as inclusive as possible?  Even to the people you don't like... Especially to the people you don't like or agree with.

I mean, I like an Old Testament vengeful God as much as the next guy and all, but I just have a hard time coming to grips in my personal faith that God will stand before someone to judge them and say, "You know... You lived your life pretty well and did well unto your fellow man, but that whole gay-sex between consenting adults means I have to send you straight to the hot place.  Sorry, bud."


This is my problem with the Catholic Church, and most of the other churches actually who say that the bible is THE WORD OF GOD.

If you're really interested about learning about the bible, and I mean learning, most Episcopal churches that I've been to do a bible study that is actually a bible study.  You spend a lot of time talking about what was going on historically at the time.  Actually, at my church we recently watched a history channel thing on the crucifiction of Jesus from a historical perspective in preparation for Easter.
 
2013-03-31 08:36:44 PM

skilbride: sugardave: Citation for "most Christians" or just lying?

That is rich coming from the guy who pretty much judged all Christians based on how some backassward rednecks in Texas are.

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

"Prosperity theology has been criticized by leaders in the and Charismatic movements, as well as other Christian denominations. These leaders maintain that it is irresponsible, promotes, and is contrary to scripture. Some critics have proposed that prosperity theology cultivates authoritarian organizations, with the leaders controlling the lives of the adherents."


Wikipedia vs. empirical evidence. You've got the right stuff! I also enjoy you taking the high road just like a good little Christian.
 
2013-03-31 08:37:10 PM

CanisNoir: Umm, yea....no. That's just complete horseshait. Not what you said, but what they're preaching. I don't see how that kind of bastardization could gain any lasting momentum within the various sects of Christianity. If God wanted his people to be prosperous and comfortable in this life time, he would have placed the Holy Land in a far better region of the world than smack dab in the middle of an arid region where it's difficult to grow shait. Jesus was poor, he preached to the poor and his preaching was about the Kingdom of Heaven appearing on Earth. Lots of people of the time misunderstood him and thought he was going to toss off the Roman yoke, be a political leader or a general leading a rebellion when, it seems to me, he was talking more about the personal struggle we each go through every day and despite being uncomfortable and not having nice things, know that God still loved us and being cool to our fellow peeps. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and I personally don't think Jesus meant that we'd be spotting Angels on every corner directing traffic.

So yea, I understand your derision of Prosperity Gospel and personally hope it gets trounced onto the fringes where it belongs.


Welcome to Atlanta. This is the main branch of World Changers Church International in Lithonia, GA, the "home" of the Reverend Creflo Dollar.

atlantablackstar.com

www.irwinseating.com

Here's a link: Atlanta (CNN) -- The arrest of Georgia megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar brought renewed attention to his message of the Prosperity Gospel, controversial to some and faith-fulfilling to its followers.

Dollar, who was arrested last week after allegedly assaulting his teenage daughter, is the founder and pastor of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta.

It claims about 30,000 members and has a multimillion-dollar sanctuary that resembles a golden-domed spaceship atop a hill.


Metro Atlanta has 3,000,000 people. That means that one man's ministry (not including the other people with Prosperity Gospel Ministries) has 1% of the population by itself. That's not "fringe".
 
2013-03-31 08:37:38 PM

Smelly McUgly: Trying to explain one's faith, or lack thereof, on the internet has a success rate slightly less than trying to make a quantum portal opener out of a remote control to find the one universe where Kate Upton will blow me.


Well, duh. You have to rewire the remote for the garage door to open the quantum portal, not the one for the cable box.
 
2013-03-31 08:38:43 PM

Hobodeluxe: ox45tallboy: Hobodeluxe: the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 281x411]

[www.jesus-is-savior.com image 600x426]
[si0.twimg.com image 400x500]

[kencopeland.com image 850x628]
[twimg0-a.akamaihd.net image 454x500]
[www.ernestangley.org image 586x365]
etc etc etc


Why do they all look so much like closet homosexuals? I don't mean it's a bad thing, but my gaydar is going nuts here.
 
2013-03-31 08:40:24 PM

Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.


Here's the thing, if you accept the doctrine of a resurrection and afterlife in paradise then you must also accept the doctrine eternal damnation of the non-believers. Same part of the book. Practically the same sentence. The problem with this is that if eternal torment is hanging in the balance, there can be no gray area in the rules on how to achieve one and avoid the other otherwise you have a supreme being consigning people to eternal torture for doubting a collection of writings that have undergone thousands of revisions, transcriptions, and translations. Some of those writings are known to be forgeries. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment unless the scriptures and their provenance were absolutely clear. If God/Jesus/Ghost exists, and I don't believe they do, they are monsters and Christians, as their worshipers, are the servants of monsters.
 
2013-03-31 08:41:02 PM
Very good troll headline, subby.
 
2013-03-31 08:41:07 PM

quatchi: It would appear from her posts that Skilbride is one of the good Christians who's gone to great lengths to find a church that doesn't work to disenfranchise others and for that I am thankful. I believe modern religion is capable of reforming itself and that it is in the process of doing so. I also think that encouraging that process is a better use of people's time than blanket condemnation.


Thank you. :)

To be honest, I fell into it.  My local church does al-anon meetings.  Both my parents are alcoholics and my brother is a heroine addict so I called a crisis hotline one night after my brother attacked me and my parents said it was my problem to deal with.  They suggested therapy there because I couldn't afford a therapist.  I started getting more and more involved, and learning more about the church from there.

There's actually a really good book I think you would enjoy reading that my pastor gave me when I was thinking about becoming more involved in the church.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365

It pretty much explains what my churches views are, and was a great introduction to a modern faith.
 
2013-03-31 08:43:47 PM

ox45tallboy: Welcome to Atlanta. This is the main branch of World Changers Church International in Lithonia, GA, the "home" of the Reverend Creflo Dollar.


He had to have changed his name to that... I mean... It might be shallow of me, but I'd have a hard time hearing a sermon preached by someone with the last name of "Dollar" --- and I said I hoped it gets trounced to the fringe where it belongs because it belongs on the fringe. The fact that so many in Atlanta are buying into it, is kinda scary.
 
2013-03-31 08:43:53 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Smelly McUgly: How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.

Here's the thing, if you accept the doctrine of a resurrection and afterlife in paradise then you must also accept the doctrine eternal damnation of the non-believers. Same part of the book. Practically the same sentence. The problem with this is that if eternal torment is hanging in the balance, there can be no gray area in the rules on how to achieve one and avoid the other otherwise you have a supreme being consigning people to eternal torture for doubting a collection of writings that have undergone thousands of revisions, transcriptions, and translations. Some of those writings are known to be forgeries. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment unless the scriptures and their provenance were absolutely clear. If God/Jesus/Ghost exists, and I don't believe they do, they are monsters and Christians, as their worshipers, are the servants of monsters.


I suppose you can look at it like that. I think that there have been some good arguments against the concept of election theologically, but I get where you are coming from.

I do have to say that I would take what you said one step further. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment full stop.
 
2013-03-31 08:44:37 PM

ox45tallboy: CanisNoir: Umm, yea....no. That's just complete horseshait. Not what you said, but what they're preaching. I don't see how that kind of bastardization could gain any lasting momentum within the various sects of Christianity. If God wanted his people to be prosperous and comfortable in this life time, he would have placed the Holy Land in a far better region of the world than smack dab in the middle of an arid region where it's difficult to grow shait. Jesus was poor, he preached to the poor and his preaching was about the Kingdom of Heaven appearing on Earth. Lots of people of the time misunderstood him and thought he was going to toss off the Roman yoke, be a political leader or a general leading a rebellion when, it seems to me, he was talking more about the personal struggle we each go through every day and despite being uncomfortable and not having nice things, know that God still loved us and being cool to our fellow peeps. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and I personally don't think Jesus meant that we'd be spotting Angels on every corner directing traffic.

So yea, I understand your derision of Prosperity Gospel and personally hope it gets trounced onto the fringes where it belongs.

Welcome to Atlanta. This is the main branch of World Changers Church International in Lithonia, GA, the "home" of the Reverend Creflo Dollar.




Here's a link: Atlanta (CNN) -- The arrest of Georgia megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar brought renewed attention to his message of the Prosperity Gospel, controversial to some and faith-fulfilling to its followers.

Dollar, who was arrested last week after allegedly assaulting his teenage daughter, is the founder and pastor of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta.

It claims about 30,000 members and has a multimillion-dollar sanctuary that resembles a golden-domed spaceship atop a hill.

Metro Atlanta has 3,000,000 people. That means that one man's ministry (not including the other people with Prosperity Gospel Ministries) has 1% of the population by itself. That's not "fringe".


I have been assured in this very thread by a real Christian that none of them believe in it. Hmm.
 
2013-03-31 08:46:14 PM

CanisNoir: ox45tallboy: Welcome to Atlanta. This is the main branch of World Changers Church International in Lithonia, GA, the "home" of the Reverend Creflo Dollar.

He had to have changed his name to that... I mean... It might be shallow of me, but I'd have a hard time hearing a sermon preached by someone with the last name of "Dollar" --- and I said I hoped it gets trounced to the fringe where it belongs because it belongs on the fringe. The fact that so many in Atlanta are buying into it, is kinda scary.


I'm not shocked. Black folks are starting to become more prosperous, and in some ways, it's easier to be Christian when you're poor. It's a lot harder to give your wealth away when, historically, your family has never had it. Considering this, I see how this dude sold prosperity gospel to a bunch of newly-prosperous people.

/Going on the assumption that black preacher = majority black congregation, of course
 
2013-03-31 08:46:37 PM

skilbride: There's actually a really good book I think you would enjoy reading that my pastor gave me when I was thinking about becoming more involved in the church.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365

It pretty much explains what my churches views are, and was a great introduction to a modern faith.


For various reasons I just envisioned one called "Why Christianity much change and dye" and envisioned a primped and preened Jesus with immaculate clothes and a dye job.
 
2013-03-31 08:47:42 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Here's the thing, if you accept the doctrine of a resurrection and afterlife in paradise then you must also accept the doctrine eternal damnation of the non-believers. Same part of the book. Practically the same sentence. The problem with this is that if eternal torment is hanging in the balance, there can be no gray area in the rules on how to achieve one and avoid the other otherwise you have a supreme being consigning people to eternal torture for doubting a collection of writings that have undergone thousands of revisions, transcriptions, and translations. Some of those writings are known to be forgeries. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment unless the scriptures and their provenance were absolutely clear. If God/Jesus/Ghost exists, and I don't believe they do, they are monsters and Christians, as their worshipers, are the servants of monsters.


Well, here's the other thing - Jesus never really mentions hell.  There's one passage that people like to quote which says in Matthew 5:22:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' is in danger of the fire of hell."

The problems we run into there is the fact that you get into how the words were translated over the course of time.  I tend to look at it like this...

Jesus was a Jew.  No one doubts that.  Jewish faith does not believe in, nor have a concept of hell, so if you're going to say that one thing, which could have been mis-interpreted so many ways, is a sign that Jesus told us we were going to be in eternal damnation?  I don't buy it.

But I think that's what the OP was talking about.  You should use your brain, and knowledge of history, to decide what is real or not - because men make mistakes.  And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.
 
2013-03-31 08:48:08 PM

sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?


Overgeneralization.  I'm a Christian, and I don't do that.  Neither do the 100+ members of my congregation.  Try again.
 
2013-03-31 08:49:14 PM

wildcardjack: For various reasons I just envisioned one called "Why Christianity much change and dye" and envisioned a primped and preened Jesus with immaculate clothes and a dye job.


You're giving me ideas for a new book.... :-P
 
2013-03-31 08:49:17 PM

skilbride: I can understand that. I came to the churches teachings much later in life - neither of my parents or my grandparents attended church, so it was something that I discovered through other means. I met some really amazing people at the church I went to, and they are pretty liberal. (Even about the whole accepting Christ as your personal savior thing.) I'm not sure that I would hold up as well if I was involved in the Church of Christ.


The problem I have with the religious beliefs of my parents and their children is that they believe the church has a monopoly on ethics and morality, and they cannot see the need for these things outside of some reward for them in the afterlife. Thing is, I don't want to do good for my neighbor because I want a reward in heaven, or abstain from being bad to my neighbor because I fear eternal punishment in hell. To me, the whole punishment and reward thing takes away the whole altruistic nature of doing good in the first place.

After my parents tried the "well, if you don't know, don't you want to believe just in case" thing, I responded with, "I already answer for my deeds, to myself and those around me. If I have to answer for them again, then I don't want to go to a heaven where people are turned away because of their beliefs, when their actions are good."

I guess that's my own biggest problem with religion - I fear that if I get caught up in it again, I'll lose the whole idea of why I rejected it in the first place - the hypocrisy of a reward for altruism.
 
2013-03-31 08:51:03 PM

Galileo's Daughter: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

Overgeneralization.  I'm a Christian, and I don't do that.  Neither do the 100+ members of my congregation.  Try again.


That's what you say, but, as I already pointed out, Christians have no problems lying if it promotes the faith. Your protestations mean nothing.
 
2013-03-31 08:51:45 PM

Smelly McUgly: I do have to say that I would take what you said one step further. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment full stop.


Which would make said deity a monster for inflicting infinite punishment for a finite offense. At the very best, compassionate deity would simply leave the nonbeliever dead and in the earth.

But consider how simple it would be for a divine being to ensure that it's message would never be lost or corrupted. Why would a divine being leave something as monumentally important as the rules for eternal life / damnation up the generations of transcription by largely illiterate monks?
 
2013-03-31 08:52:29 PM

skilbride: Jesus was a Jew. No one doubts that. Jewish faith does not believe in, nor have a concept of hell, so if you're going to say that one thing, which could have been mis-interpreted so many ways, is a sign that Jesus told us we were going to be in eternal damnation? I don't buy it.

But I think that's what the OP was talking about. You should use your brain, and knowledge of history, to decide what is real or not - because men make mistakes. And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.



I'm with you on this one; I think the concept of Hell as eternal punishment is more of a medieval invention than an actual Jesus Quote. I believe The Apostles Creed mentions him descending into Hell prior to being resurrected, but given the context of the time, I think it would have been more akin to "Hades" as a place where all dead went, than the eternal fires of Modern Catholicism.
 
2013-03-31 08:53:15 PM
This thread needs hallowed boobies.

www.ourspacer.com
 
2013-03-31 08:53:42 PM

Smelly McUgly: Oh, I do understand this. I am just saying that we don't HAVE to treat the Bible like this.

Does it matter in the end? Some folks, I feel, just want to be led, and some particularly odious people are going to part those folks with their mammon under the guise of following the Word of God.


Honestly, I'd be happy with treating the Bible like a historical reference of the beliefs of some people from thousands of years ago, and cherry-picking the good ideas out of it.

But yes, throughout history, some people do just want to be led, and the right leader can lead people to do things that are simply abhorrent to even think about. Rather than Godwinning here, I'll point out the way Americans are every bit as vulnerable as others, especially where religion is concerned, as can be seen in the Jonestown incident.
 
2013-03-31 08:53:58 PM

skilbride: And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.


And that, my dear, is the best argument that there is no such being.
 
2013-03-31 08:54:25 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Smelly McUgly: I do have to say that I would take what you said one step further. A compassionate deity could not consign non-believers to eternal torment full stop.

Which would make said deity a monster for inflicting infinite punishment for a finite offense. At the very best, compassionate deity would simply leave the nonbeliever dead and in the earth.

But consider how simple it would be for a divine being to ensure that it's message would never be lost or corrupted. Why would a divine being leave something as monumentally important as the rules for eternal life / damnation up the generations of transcription by largely illiterate monks?


Yes, I'm still with you. I am not sure where we disagree.

Let's take this one step further. If there is a divine being, how could any of us possibly know enough about the divine being to transcribe every minute rule that being might have in a book? Even if the divine being comes down here to tell us the rules, we probably aren't going to listen very well for the most part. We are all skeptics at our core. I think humans are often more rational than you might believe.
 
2013-03-31 08:54:50 PM

skilbride: Thank you. :)


You are ever so welcome.

TY for the book suggestion. Looks like a good read.

Sorry about the crap growing up years, I can't even imagine. Glad you're finding a better place to be.
 
2013-03-31 08:54:53 PM
I don't think Canis Noir is aware that the Old Jewish religious law ORDERED people to give some sort of tithe for whatever religious purpose.

It wasn't left up to "well, maybe I will contribute if I feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel like it."
 
2013-03-31 08:55:52 PM

Smelly McUgly: Yes, I'm still with you. I am not sure where we disagree.


We don't. I'm not arguing with you, just expanding on your points.
 
2013-03-31 08:56:08 PM

skilbride: wildcardjack: For various reasons I just envisioned one called "Why Christianity much change and dye" and envisioned a primped and preened Jesus with immaculate clothes and a dye job.

You're giving me ideas for a new book.... :-P


There's a Metrosexual Jesus on FB already.

sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-03-31 08:56:26 PM

ox45tallboy: I guess that's my own biggest problem with religion - I fear that if I get caught up in it again, I'll lose the whole idea of why I rejected it in the first place - the hypocrisy of a reward for altruism.


Well, here's the thing - you have to separate a belief in God from organized religion.  Do you believe in God?  I struggled with that for a long time - and once I came to the conclusion that yes, I did, I was lucky enough to find a church that agreed with my other moral views in life.

Organized religion is subject to the whims and flaws of man.  At it's base though, any organized religion is like minded people getting together to share views, values, and create a community.  So, if you believe in God, and want to be involved with people who share your beliefs, you have to find a church that believes what you do.  :)

Or hell - create your own.  I'm pretty sure if I moved to middle america I wouldn't find a church that I could attend.  But that wouldn't stop my belief and relationship with Him.
 
2013-03-31 08:57:53 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: skilbride: And God did not come down from the heavens and pen the bible himself.

And that, my dear, is the best argument that there is no such being.


I think the best argument that there is no God is that God has not revealed him/her/itself to all of us in an unequivocally obvious manner.

Now, as a believer in God, this doesn't really matter, but I use my rational, observational side to vote and learn more about the world and my irrational (and that isn't a negative) inner self to pontificate on the nature of God.

As long as you're a good dude, Monkeyhouse, I think that's all that matters.
 
2013-03-31 08:58:10 PM

CanisNoir: He had to have changed his name to that... I mean... It might be shallow of me, but I'd have a hard time hearing a sermon preached by someone with the last name of "Dollar" --- and I said I hoped it gets trounced to the fringe where it belongs because it belongs on the fringe. The fact that so many in Atlanta are buying into it, is kinda scary.


According to his official bio, he was named after his father, Creflo A. Dollar Sr.

As far as Prosperity Gospel megachurches, don't even get me started on Ken Copeland and Bishop Eddie Long.
 
2013-03-31 08:58:42 PM

Kittypie070: I don't think Canis Noir is aware that the Old Jewish religious law ORDERED people to give some sort of tithe for whatever religious purpose.

It wasn't left up to "well, maybe I will contribute if I feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel like it."


No, I'm aware of that, it was expected that people would give a portion of their bounty to those with less. Those who didn't, however, were not tossed in prison by the secular authorities. They were shamed and called Godless for not obeying Gods law.

Two different things we're talking about here, and I'm trying to keep them separate. In Jesus' time, the secular authority was Rome, and he never once told people they should give their money to Rome so that Rome could feed the poor.

/Ear Scritches for Kittypie cuz she's a smoke-buddy even if we disagree on some things :)
 
2013-03-31 08:59:14 PM

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


I don't remember JC mentioned the government forcing us to buy military protection or a civil defense, so let's call that particular argument a done deal, shall we?
 
2013-03-31 08:59:59 PM

CanisNoir: I'm with you on this one; I think the concept of Hell as eternal punishment is more of a medieval invention than an actual Jesus Quote. I believe The Apostles Creed mentions him descending into Hell prior to being resurrected, but given the context of the time, I think it would have been more akin to "Hades" as a place where all dead went, than the eternal fires of Modern Catholicism.


Agreed.  And you have to take into account all the things that were co-opted from other religions to make Christianity more inclusive during it's growth years.  Christianity is so complex - which I think is why it all these internet fights typically never lead to rational discussion - because you have to have the time to go through thousands of years of history.  :)

quatchi: Sorry about the crap growing up years, I can't even imagine. Glad you're finding a better place to be.


I'm not!  They made me stronger.  Plus, there's no better example of what NOT to be than my family. <3  I love them anyway. haha
 
2013-03-31 09:00:14 PM

sugardave: I have been assured in this very thread by a real Christian that none of them believe in it. Hmm.


They believe in it enough to support it.

The Rev. Creflo Dollar's World Changers Church International in College Park alone took in $69 million in 2006, according to a brief report his church showed The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
 
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