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(RedState)   If the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, such as not allowing gay marriage, then why the hell are we opposing Obamacare - which is the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done?   (redstate.com) divider line 522
    More: Interesting, obamacare, No Regrets, no compromise, protest vote, eternal life, same-sex marriages, Bob Dole, Biden  
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4073 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-31 07:47:22 PM  

Weaver95: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Didn't Jesus also have a problem with money lenders getting too close with religious leaders?

very much so.  in fact, Christ also had big issues with mixing wealth and religion in any manner.  he beat the snot outta bankers who set up shop outside the temple.  the megachurches in this country would have appalled him.


He didn't even get pissed at *SATAN*. But the money lenders? He was pissed.
 
2013-03-31 07:48:20 PM  

Barricaded Gunman: How about if we just roll our eyes and "call you out" for being an allegedly sentient being in the 21st century who believes in a holy book? There are people in the world who are discovering amazing new real things every day, and a lot of us are tired of having to "respect" the magical thinking practiced by fearful idiots clutching a book of stories made up by illiterate shepherds as they crouched around a dung fire 2,000 years ago, making up stories to explain where the sun goes at night.


How presumptuous of you to assume that just because I'm Christian I'm not one of the people out there discovering amazing new things every day.  Or that I don't appreciate science, etc etc.

There is room for both.  Really, it comes down to this:  How can you hate Christian's as a whole and judge them as a group because they believe in the bible, and then espouse hatred towards them for judging people on their actions.

You know the irony of all of this is that I tend to exclusively date middle eastern, Muslim men.  Something about their dark features get me every time - but I have faced less hate, and more understanding from THEM, no matter how devout they are, then I do from people who have no faith.
 
2013-03-31 07:49:07 PM  
FYI thread, I'm posting from my phone or I would be trimming quotes better.
 
2013-03-31 07:49:13 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: You have to understand my position on American Christianity which is that it's a two thousand year old, Jewish mystery cult that somehow managed to propagate its ideas at the expense of the other mystery cults of the time. You don't have original texts for your holy book (which you claim is divinely inspired) and the closer you get to the origin of the religion, the more contradictory the written accounts become.


First of all, Christianity is *not* a two thousand year old Jewish Mystery Cult, Judaism could be derided as such. So you should qualify your statement with the fact that you're problem is with Jews, Christians and Muslims, since they are all based upon the God of Abraham and use the Hebrew religious texts as a basis.
The Old Testament, (The Jewish section of the Christian Bible) is the only thing in the Bible said to be "Divinely inspired" as the New Testament is made up of the Gospels which are the story of Christs life and his teachings - not directives from God. So you're mixing The Christian Bible up with The Torah and the Koran.
This "Jewish Mystery Cult" didn't mysteriously manage to propagate it's ideas at the expense of other religions, that was mainly a Roman achievement following Constantines conversion and it's not surprising or mystical, it makes perfect sense.

You worship an invisible entity for which there is no documented evidence that does not also exist for any number of other deities, demigods and saints.

There is documented evidence supporting the existence of Jesus, he's mentioned by a couple of Roman historians of the time; granted he's called a "Magician" and a Jewish rabble rouser by them but they certainly mention him.

It just seems to me that you have a very incomplete idea of American Christianity, it's history, it's works and it's beliefs and therefore are not basing your opinion on much that is factual.

thismomentinblackhistory: I just don't see how a legislator passing bills in the best interest of the electorate could be the opposite of "good work."


Whether or not Obamacare is actually in the best interest of the Electorate is still up for debate, and I stated it shouldn't be considered a "good work" because it's removing a persons free will.
 
2013-03-31 07:50:01 PM  

Somacandra: FTFA: Hopefully, the above is enough to establish my Christian, conservative bona fides (and yes, the order of those adjectives is deliberate)

When you think about how much time and energy the authot had to spend to verify said credentials, it tells you what the problem is: the fact that an idea cannot stand alone on it own merits. The source communicator must also be ideologically pristine. Interestingly enough, other than the author's own self-id as such, there is nothing about those statements he made that a conservative Jew or Muslim could not have also said.


That's a good observation. He got plenty hammered in the comments, especially by a few that felt simply having such an idea completely disproved all of the bona fides he recanted.
 
2013-03-31 07:51:03 PM  

skilbride: Well, on a very base level, you should at least understand the different sects of Christianity.  For instance, at my Church, we do not believe that the bible is the divine word of God in a literal sense.  It is instead the inspired word of God - but subject to the flaws of men.  You take the good from it, and you exclude the contradictory.  It's a set of guidelines to live by, compassion, charity and faith in God.


Here's the problem with your position: your inspired word of God threatens eternal torture for anyone who does not demonstrate absolute submission. I'm not saying there aren't a few bits with good advice about compassion but those the Bible hardly has a copyright on that advice. What really comes through is the "submit to yahweh/jesus/holy_spirit or else" part.

And while it is possible that you could be right, and there could be no God, and that since there is no physical proof of that, I could be totally screwed, because I choose to live my life using those basic principals and teachings I have learned, I know that I am living a better life.  People use all sorts of crutches to make it through life, like alcohol, drugs, posting vitriol online on message boards because you are too intimated to do it in real life - but just like I would not judge you based on your crutch of poison, I would ask you not to judge me on mine.

I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.
 
2013-03-31 07:51:46 PM  
Now this thread has it all with the addition of Christian claims of hypocrisy of judgment of them. Did they not write that rulebook?
 
2013-03-31 07:54:02 PM  

skilbride: See, I have a much deeper fear about ObamaCare - in that it will just end there. We will be forced to buy healthcare, but the insurance companies won't be forced to reduce costs.

All that does is deepen their pockets, and shorten ours. And honestly, it kinda already seems like that has happened.


I don't think that's an irrational fear; it could happen, especially if people do not focus on the realities of the benefits of single payer. The political will to move to single payer will not be too long in the making, I think it will be 20 years or so.
 
2013-03-31 07:54:38 PM  

pounddawg: TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection. And many of them don't spend a lot of time convincing the believers that they shouldn't believe in the resurrection.

The most interesting explanation I heard is Jesus was drugged and after 6 hours he was taken down alive. (Six hours isn't a lot of time to die by being crucified.) The materials taken to the tomb were medicines, he was healed up and beat cheeks out of the Middle East with his wife Mary.

But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.

Read "The Passover Plot"  It describes Jesus being drugged with concoction that would mask death (like in Romeo and Juliet) Then he was taken down and healed. Wala.


Wala?  Wala?
 
2013-03-31 07:55:22 PM  

Somacandra: An actual libertarian would be concerned with actual *individual" rights rather than some imagined arbitrary collectivism, don't you think?


And currently everyone has the right to get married, what I am saying is that I support states to decide whether or not to redefine it because each individuals vote matters more on the state and local level than it does on the national level.

ox45tallboy: I call it stupid, but it's worked for nearly all of recorded history. The problem now is that many people are rejecting the notion of suffering now for Good Things after death. Some religious leaders are altering their message to maintain congregational numbers through things such as "Prosperity Gospel".


I'm not sure what "Prosperity Gospel" is, but it sounds pretty shaitty just on it's face, so I for one will say screw Prosperity Gospel.

So what do you do when you can't convince people to give in this lifetime?

Lead by example and keep trying to convince them. Forcing them to your way of thinking does nothing but foster anger and resentment towards what you wish to achieve.
 
2013-03-31 07:56:24 PM  

CanisNoir: I stated it shouldn't be considered a "good work" because it's removing a persons free will.


You don't get "free will" on whether you pay the rest of your taxes or not, either. There are costs to living in a society, after all. In this case, I'd argue the greater good is served.
 
2013-03-31 07:56:43 PM  
Also, somebody tell the commenters that no, the Bible is not explicitly the Word of God. We're not dealing with the Qu'ran here.

Most of those Red State commenters are trying to kill Christianity secretly, I'm sure of it.
 
2013-03-31 07:57:37 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.


Or, I'm enriching it but living in a way that benefits those around me?

Listen, if you want to seriously sit down and talk and learn to how I got here from where I was (which wasn't all that different from you) in 28 years, I can.  For years I doubted faith (all faiths) but over the course of my late 20's, I've come to a place where I am through letting my faith guide me.  Since then my life has changed for the better, and I believe. (I spent a significant amount of time in my early 20's attending al-anon meetings at a local episcopal church, and that's how I got involved.)

Like I said, I picked a church that doesn't contradict my views.  The episcopal church will be having gay marriages in the National Cathedral this year!  We welcome anyone, gay, straight, black, white, drunk, sober, who cares!  We welcome you, and will help you if you need it, and if you want to talk about the true teachings and hear what we believe, we are more than willing. :)

But I don't think I am wasting my life now by believing in God.
 
2013-03-31 07:59:35 PM  

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.


JC said consistently, "It's my way or the highway," and he didn't mean the highway to Heaven.

You're free to not buy insurance and not pay taxes.
 
2013-03-31 08:00:28 PM  

CanisNoir: It just seems to me that you have a very incomplete idea of American Christianity, it's history, it's works and it's beliefs and therefore are not basing your opinion on much that is factual.


CanisNoir: I'm not sure what "Prosperity Gospel" is, but it sounds pretty shaitty just on it's face, so I for one will say screw Prosperity Gospel.


We're supposed to believe you're an expert on American Christianity, but you've never heard of prosperity gospel?  Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
 
2013-03-31 08:00:43 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.


How does having faith in an afterlife short change the life we're living? That's like saying an Atheist can have no ethics because they don't believe in God. The two are not mutually exclusive you know. (And yes I know some people make that claim about Atheists, I'm not one of them.)
 
2013-03-31 08:01:30 PM  
And just to let you guys know, I'm pretty sure the majority of my real life friends except my ex-boyfriend know nothing about my faith - it's just been in the past week that I kinda felt the need to jump in because the only people who are talking are the wrong people.  (So, you're my first test group!)
 
2013-03-31 08:02:32 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Your profile indicates you are not a "deep" thinker.


Says the guy who actually believes that Jesus cared more about free market individualism than helping the poor.
 
2013-03-31 08:03:01 PM  

CanisNoir: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.

How does having faith in an afterlife short change the life we're living? That's like saying an Atheist can have no ethics because they don't believe in God. The two are not mutually exclusive you know. (And yes I know some people make that claim about Atheists, I'm not one of them.)


Because it's the internet where people are belligerent?

Trying to explain one's faith, or lack thereof, on the internet has a success rate slightly less than trying to make a quantum portal opener out of a remote control to find the one universe where Kate Upton will blow me.
 
2013-03-31 08:03:21 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.


I know you're not talking to me, but I had to respond to this.

That sentence contains three very positive assertions of which you cannot prove.

1. There is no afterlife.
2. You will never live again.
3. Believing in an afterlife causes some negative effect to the life you're living now.

We'll skip the first two,  but kindly explain what you mean by 3, please? Who are you to know how any particular piece of knowledge is to affect any particular person?
 
2013-03-31 08:04:28 PM  

Karac: We're supposed to believe you're an expert on American Christianity, but you've never heard of prosperity gospel? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.


I never claimed to be an expert on anything and you're free to believe what ever it is you want to believe. I've heard of it before, thought it was a bastardization of Christs teachings and didn't pay it too much more mind. It's not mentioned in my church or by the people of faith I know and talk to, so yea, that's one aspect of American Christianity that I'm not well versed on. Doesn't mean I can't correct misunderstandings on things I do know about, when I think I see them.
 
2013-03-31 08:04:40 PM  

Fubini: A common biblical metaphor for describing conversion to Christianity is to "die" to yourself, in the sense that you deny your own desires, wants, and even needs, for the sake of loving others.


Eh?  Don't recall such metaphors in the Bible.  Maybe they are somewhere else.

Sounds like Mahayana Buddhism, though.
 
2013-03-31 08:04:40 PM  

Smelly McUgly: CanisNoir: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I would hold that by putting your faith in a non-existent afterlife you are shortchanging the one life you will ever have.

How does having faith in an afterlife short change the life we're living? That's like saying an Atheist can have no ethics because they don't believe in God. The two are not mutually exclusive you know. (And yes I know some people make that claim about Atheists, I'm not one of them.)

Because it's the internet where people are belligerent?

Trying to explain one's faith, or lack thereof, on the internet has a success rate slightly less than trying to make a quantum portal opener out of a remote control to find the one universe where Kate Upton will blow me.


There's only one?!
 
2013-03-31 08:04:46 PM  
This is really a silly argument.

If you think religions are going to bend to your politics, you're gonna have a bad time.

If you think politics are going to bend to your religion, you're gonna have a bad time.

Happy Easter!
 
2013-03-31 08:04:48 PM  

skilbride: How can you hate Christian's as a whole and judge them as a group because they believe in the bible, and then espouse hatred towards them for judging people on their actions.


I don't want to speak for others in this thread, but I think much of the foundation of hatred for the Bible comes from the fact that between the Old Testament and Paul's epistles, Jesus's message of love tends to get thrown on the back burner. It's actually not a very big part of the Bible as a whole, comprising only four books and a fraction of a fifth.

If I were gay, I wouldn't like the Old Testament writers or Paul very much at all.

The other problem that nonChristian people tend to have with Christians is that many who call themselves Christians and say they believe in the Bible do so in such a way that their blind (and I mean to the exclusion of physical evidence) faith in their belief that the Bible is completely inerrant makes it so that it is difficult to convince them of anything to the contrary. My sister just filled out a science paper for her daughter explaining that the book of Genesis says the Earth was created first, and the "lesser lights of the night" weren't created until Day 4, therefore the science textbook that states Mercury formed before the Earth was incorrect. I have no patience with people that refuse to look at scientific evidence because it conflicts with their own previously held beliefs. I think if my sister were a few thousand years older she would be there holding the cup of hemlock for Socrates.
 
2013-03-31 08:05:17 PM  

Karac: We're supposed to believe you're an expert on American Christianity, but you've never heard of prosperity gospel?  Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.


The prosperity gospel is not actually something that is typically taught, or acknowledged by the bigger Christian sects.  It's something that is typically used by smaller non-denominational churches that eventually use it to become mega-churches.  I'm not surprised he doesn't know it - because most of the time, people of faith refuse to accept it.  It's actually pretty much in direct opposition of the bible because one of the 10 commandments is "no false idols". :-P
 
2013-03-31 08:06:28 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Eh?  Don't recall such metaphors in the Bible.  Maybe they are somewhere else.


Sounds a bit like "born again" Christianity. IIRC, that's what the entire symbolism surrounding water baptism was about.
 
2013-03-31 08:07:02 PM  

sugardave: Smelly McUgly:

Trying to explain one's faith, or lack thereof, on the internet has a success rate slightly less than trying to make a quantum portal opener out of a remote control to find the one universe where Kate Upton will blow me.

There's only one?!


I just looked at myself in the mirror and I think I'm being generous here.
 
2013-03-31 08:07:09 PM  

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?


insofar as you had a choice to follow his teachings or not yes. but let's consider what his true message was in a meta fashion. that for society to ever achieve nirvana that one must care for others more than themselves and be willing to sacrifice all for a stranger.
that was his example. that was his lesson.
 
2013-03-31 08:07:45 PM  

skilbride: Karac: We're supposed to believe you're an expert on American Christianity, but you've never heard of prosperity gospel?  Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

The prosperity gospel is not actually something that is typically taught, or acknowledged by the bigger Christian sects.  It's something that is typically used by smaller non-denominational churches that eventually use it to become mega-churches.  I'm not surprised he doesn't know it - because most of the time, people of faith refuse to accept it.  It's actually pretty much in direct opposition of the bible because one of the 10 commandments is "no false idols". :-P


Citation for "most Christians" or just lying?
 
2013-03-31 08:08:02 PM  

cchris_39: If you think politics are going to bend to your religion, you're gonna have a bad time.


Unless you're talking about outlawing gay marriage or forcing abstinence/creationism be taught in schools or forcing unlucky saps who work for fundie corporations to pay for their own birth control, in which cases the results are at least mixed.
 
2013-03-31 08:08:18 PM  

skilbride: Or, I'm enriching it but living in a way that benefits those around me?


I've known Christians my entire life. You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical of that claim.

I'm not saying you don't believe it, I'm just saying that your definition of "benefit" may be wildly different than mine. The god botherers who occasionally show up on my doorstep to sell me an afterlife for the low, low cost of my soul, ten percent of my income, and my Sunday mornings firmly believe they benefit those around them.

skilbride: Listen, if you want to seriously sit down and talk and learn to how I got here from where I was (which wasn't all that different from you) in 28 years, I can


Considering that I've come from a Christian upbringing and through study of the Bible and the religion have determined that it's fantasy, I say good luck.

skilbride: Like I said, I picked a church that doesn't contradict my views


If anything, that should make you question whether your belief system is congruent with reality.
 
2013-03-31 08:08:52 PM  

CanisNoir: 'm not sure what "Prosperity Gospel" is, but it sounds pretty shaitty just on it's face, so I for one will say screw Prosperity Gospel.


It's basically the belief that God loves you and wants you to be prosperous in this lifetime. It also means that living comfortably and ownership of material things is a sign of Jesus's love.

Basically, take the "rich man / eye of a needle" passage and turn it on it's head.

So what do you do when you can't convince people to give in this lifetime?

Lead by example and keep trying to convince them. Forcing them to your way of thinking does nothing but foster anger and resentment towards what you wish to achieve.


I could counter that society shouldn't give a sh*t what people think or believe, as long as they act in a way that is beneficial rather than harmful to the society. If a person can come up with a way that society benefits through him or her controlling 90% of the wealth, then he or she should work towards that goal.
 
2013-03-31 08:09:32 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Eh? Don't recall such metaphors in the Bible. Maybe they are somewhere else.


oh really?
then you need to go back and re-read the book. particularly the words in red.
 
2013-03-31 08:10:15 PM  

ox45tallboy: I don't want to speak for others in this thread, but I think much of the foundation of hatred for the Bible comes from the fact that between the Old Testament and Paul's epistles, Jesus's message of love tends to get thrown on the back burner. It's actually not a very big part of the Bible as a whole, comprising only four books and a fraction of a fifth.

If I were gay, I wouldn't like the Old Testament writers or Paul very much at all.

The other problem that nonChristian people tend to have with Christians is that many who call themselves Christians and say they believe in the Bible do so in such a way that their blind (and I mean to the exclusion of physical evidence) faith in their belief that the Bible is completely inerrant makes it so that it is difficult to convince them of anything to the contrary. My sister just filled out a science paper for her daughter explaining that the book of Genesis says the Earth was created first, and the "lesser lights of the night" weren't created until Day 4, therefore the science textbook that states Mercury formed before the Earth was incorrect. I have no patience with people that refuse to look at scientific evidence because it conflicts with their own previously held beliefs. I think if my sister were a few thousand years older she would be there holding the cup of hemlock for Socrates.


Early on in my faith, that was something I had a hard time dealing with.  The Old Testament is real wrath of God type stuff, God pretty much hates us.  Then Jesus comes along and says, "No, God loves us."  While I was defining my faith, I had to reconcile the two because it definitely reads like an abusive relationship to me.  (Here, let me hit you, but then tomorrow I'm gonna hug you and say everything is all right.)

I understand the problem with the people who refuse to look at science as well.  I get frustrated with that too - but the only way to reach them is through understanding and talking with them.  One of the girls in my bible study actually used to be like that - and a year later we've totally changed her mind through rational discussion.  :)
 
2013-03-31 08:11:02 PM  

Karac: Pull the other one one of the others, it's got bells on it.


Sorry, I'm in the mood for Terry Pratchett humor. Plus his name is CanisNoir.
 
2013-03-31 08:12:18 PM  

ox45tallboy: CanisNoir: 'm not sure what "Prosperity Gospel" is, but it sounds pretty shaitty just on it's face, so I for one will say screw Prosperity Gospel.

It's basically the belief that God loves you and wants you to be prosperous in this lifetime. It also means that living comfortably and ownership of material things is a sign of Jesus's love.

Basically, take the "rich man / eye of a needle" passage and turn it on it's head.

So what do you do when you can't convince people to give in this lifetime?

Lead by example and keep trying to convince them. Forcing them to your way of thinking does nothing but foster anger and resentment towards what you wish to achieve.

I could counter that society shouldn't give a sh*t what people think or believe, as long as they act in a way that is beneficial rather than harmful to the society. If a person can come up with a way that society benefits through him or her controlling 90% of the wealth, then he or she should work towards that goal.


the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.
 
2013-03-31 08:13:09 PM  

TsukasaK: 3. Believing in an afterlife causes some negative effect to the life you're living now.

We'll skip the first two, but kindly explain what you mean by 3, please? Who are you to know how any particular piece of knowledge is to affect any particular person?


I guess it's all about how far you go with this belief.

www.blackhandside.net
 
2013-03-31 08:13:31 PM  

sugardave: Citation for "most Christians" or just lying?


That is rich coming from the guy who pretty much judged all Christians based on how some backassward rednecks in Texas are.

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

"Prosperity theology has been criticized by leaders in the and Charismatic movements, as well as other Christian denominations. These leaders maintain that it is irresponsible, promotes, and is contrary to scripture. Some critics have proposed that prosperity theology cultivates authoritarian organizations, with the leaders controlling the lives of the adherents."
 
2013-03-31 08:15:51 PM  

The Fourth Karamazov: Wala? Wala?


Heh, isn't that where my Calvinist republican representative is from?
 
2013-03-31 08:15:52 PM  
Dude, there are math errors in the Bible.

What I like about Christianity is that it should not have the same issues as Islam. In Islam, one HAS to take the Qu'ran at its word because Muhammad was divinely-inspired when he wrote it.

In Christianity, there is no such tenet! Hell, any Christian that knows anything about history has a good knowledge of the wrangling that the church went through in terms of which books to add to the New Testament. On top of that, Jesus spends most of his time in the NT calling out church leaders for being too much into Leviticus and not enough into, you know, being kind to the people and giving as God would have them give.

How we still have a bunch of people that insist that what Genesis says trumps science is amazing to me because we DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE READ in the Bible. It's infuriating.

This is how you get commenters at Red State going on about the original diary writer not knowing his scriptures, and yet these people probably eat pork and shellfish, wear blended cottons, and let the women of the house stay living there instead of pitching them into a tent in the backyard during their periods. Well that, and I would never tell a woman on her period where to go or what to do for self-preservation's sake.
 
2013-03-31 08:16:43 PM  

Hobodeluxe: the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-31 08:18:51 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I'm not saying you don't believe it, I'm just saying that your definition of "benefit" may be wildly different than mine. The god botherers who occasionally show up on my doorstep to sell me an afterlife for the low, low cost of my soul, ten percent of my income, and my Sunday mornings firmly believe they benefit those around them.


Where do you live?  For instance, I'm just outside Washington, DC - I never have people come to my door, and like I said earlier in the thread, this thread is actually the first time I've talked about my faith outside of my church or when I was trying to figure out how I could merge it with my muslim boyfriend.  I wonder if maybe, the area in which people live and the faiths that are found there have a way of shaping views.
 
2013-03-31 08:19:21 PM  

sugardave: There's only one?!


ox45tallboy: It's basically the belief that God loves you and wants you to be prosperous in this lifetime. It also means that living comfortably and ownership of material things is a sign of Jesus's love.


Umm, yea....no. That's just complete horseshait. Not what you said, but what they're preaching. I don't see how that kind of bastardization could gain any lasting momentum within the various sects of Christianity. If God wanted his people to be prosperous and comfortable in this life time, he would have placed the Holy Land in a far better region of the world than smack dab in the middle of an arid region where it's difficult to grow shait. Jesus was poor, he preached to the poor and his preaching was about the Kingdom of Heaven appearing on Earth. Lots of people of the time misunderstood him and thought he was going to toss off the Roman yoke, be a political leader or a general leading a rebellion when, it seems to me, he was talking more about the personal struggle we each go through every day and despite being uncomfortable and not having nice things, know that God still loved us and being cool to our fellow peeps. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and I personally don't think Jesus meant that we'd be spotting Angels on every corner directing traffic.

So yea, I understand your derision of Prosperity Gospel and personally hope it gets trounced onto the fringes where it belongs.
 
2013-03-31 08:20:37 PM  

TsukasaK: That sentence contains three very positive assertions of which you cannot prove.

1. There is no afterlife.
2. You will never live again.
3. Believing in an afterlife causes some negative effect to the life you're living now.


1. I have no evidence that there is any consciousness after the death of the body. All evidence supports the position that consciousness is a function of an operating brain and no consciousness has been observed in the absence of a functioning brain. Based on this I'm reasonably comfortable making the assertion that when my brain stops functioning, what I perceive as "me" will cease.

2. The component parts of my body will be incorporated into other living things but there is no evidence that my consciousness will exist after the death of my brain nor has any mechanism been detected which would support the persistence of my consciousness after death.

3. That, I'll grant you. While the belief in an afterlife does not prevent one from living the one life they have evidence of to the fullest, when that belief comes attached to a system of other beliefs that demand that enjoyment of this life be eschewed in favor of the one to come then it is likely that belief in that afterlife will result in a life less lived.
 
2013-03-31 08:20:37 PM  
Hobodeluxe:
the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.

it's also flat out heretical.  makes me really wish we could burn the megachurch pastors at the stake.

*sigh*

ah well.  best we can do is point out how corrupt and debased modern Christianity has become in this country.
 
2013-03-31 08:23:13 PM  

Smelly McUgly: What I like about Christianity is that it should not have the same issues as Islam. In Islam, one HAS to take the Qu'ran at its word because Muhammad was divinely-inspired when he wrote it.

In Christianity, there is no such tenet! Hell, any Christian that knows anything about history has a good knowledge of the wrangling that the church went through in terms of which books to add to the New Testament. On top of that, Jesus spends most of his time in the NT calling out church leaders for being too much into Leviticus and not enough into, you know, being kind to the people and giving as God would have them give.


RIGHT?!  Like okay, the bible says the first church was in a womans house.  Are you REALLY going to tell me that Jesus was ALLL about preaching in womens houses and not one them wrote it down?  Nope, some old men decided their writings weren't important.
 
2013-03-31 08:23:53 PM  

skilbride: Early on in my faith, that was something I had a hard time dealing with. The Old Testament is real wrath of God type stuff, God pretty much hates us. Then Jesus comes along and says, "No, God loves us." While I was defining my faith, I had to reconcile the two because it definitely reads like an abusive relationship to me. (Here, let me hit you, but then tomorrow I'm gonna hug you and say everything is all right.)

I understand the problem with the people who refuse to look at science as well. I get frustrated with that too - but the only way to reach them is through understanding and talking with them. One of the girls in my bible study actually used to be like that - and a year later we've totally changed her mind through rational discussion. :)


The thing that broke it for me was the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son Isaac. I'm not following a god that expects me to kill an innocent human being because he said so. I can't get into the whole "love God more than anything" thing, because that implies that I should be selfless, but God has the right to be selfish. I just can't follow a god like that. Jesus had nothing but praise for the Old Testamnet god, so I'm not about to act like he was anyone special.

Thing is, Jesus had some really good advice. He shared some great ideas, and I think he made a difference in the world. Then Paul came along with his weird sexual fixations and turned what Jesus said (and what Jesus didn't say) on its ear. It's all been retranslated so many times that it is silly to examine the minutae. I like the message of loving one another, but every single church I've ever known always tries to bury itself into the smallest things and suggest that those who reject the divinity of Jesus, even if they agree with his message, are not ones who share their ideas.

I grew up in the Church of Christ, one of those ultra-conservative religions that doesn't even do instrumental music. I started rejecting it in my late teens, and finally decided to start calling myself an atheist about 10 years later.
 
2013-03-31 08:24:50 PM  

skilbride: Early on in my faith, that was something I had a hard time dealing with. The Old Testament is real wrath of God type stuff, God pretty much hates us. Then Jesus comes along and says, "No, God loves us." While I was defining my faith, I had to reconcile the two because it definitely reads like an abusive relationship to me. (Here, let me hit you, but then tomorrow I'm gonna hug you and say everything is all right.)


I've always looked at that difference as one of the reasons Christians needed to split from the Jewish Faith; you know, that and the acceptance of Non-Jews into Gods Kingdom. Jesus was reinterpreting the Old Testament in a way, which is why the Jewish priests were threatened by him. It's not that God changed from the Old Testament to the New, but our understanding of Him did. You also have to take into account that each Gospel was written with a certain political bias depending upon the time it was written, which is why there are differences in them. They are each attempting to convey their own thoughts on what God wanted, to the Jews of the time.

Just my personal opinion mind you.
 
2013-03-31 08:25:05 PM  

ox45tallboy: Hobodeluxe: the prosperity gospel is basically a license to be a greedy selfish, fark and still maintain that holier-than-thou self-righteousness.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 281x411]


www.jesus-is-savior.com
si0.twimg.com

kencopeland.com
twimg0-a.akamaihd.net
www.ernestangley.org
etc etc etc
 
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