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(RedState)   If the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, such as not allowing gay marriage, then why the hell are we opposing Obamacare - which is the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done?   (redstate.com) divider line 522
    More: Interesting, obamacare, No Regrets, no compromise, protest vote, eternal life, same-sex marriages, Bob Dole, Biden  
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4072 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-31 07:20:52 PM

sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.


Where exactly did I threaten you?
 
2013-03-31 07:21:01 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.

So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.


What's more, if you look at the Mosaical Law from the Old Testament, you will see that such things as leaving part of the crop at harvest for the poor to glean was not just religious tradition, it was the secular law as well, and one could be punished by society for failing to perform this act of charity.
 
2013-03-31 07:22:21 PM

CanisNoir: sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?

You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


His point distilled to "they're takin' our jerbz" vis a vis charitable giving, which I see you left out.
 
2013-03-31 07:23:05 PM

CanisNoir: sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?

You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.
 
2013-03-31 07:23:10 PM

jso2897: Yep - and that applies when they elect the executives who appoint the judges who often end up ruling on these matters, too.
Democracy - it's a biatch when your worn out value system is losing.



Personally I think the Court is going to strike down DOMA and let Prop 8 stand, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states. As for a "worn out value system losing ground" I don't think that it is, it might be losing ground on some areas but it's gaining ground on others. There are far worse things, in my mind, than two people of the same sex loving each other and all of them have contributed to the moral wasteland that we currently find ourselves in more than homosexuality.
 
2013-03-31 07:23:20 PM

sugardave: On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things.


the President runs things.  He is Christian.  Do not pass go or collect $200.
 
2013-03-31 07:23:27 PM
Methinks the headline is confusing many of the ObamAtheists.
 
2013-03-31 07:24:00 PM

skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?


Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?
 
2013-03-31 07:24:32 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullshiat on that. About 70% if the US population self identifies as Christian and if 70% of the population were even marginally motivated to feed and put a roof over the head of the poor, we wouldn't have the poverty and homeless rates we have in this nation. Christians are all about "faith not works" and building churches the size of sports arenas. Sure, some of them may run a soup kitchen now and again but most of that "charity" is funneled back into the congregation or into the wallet of the clergy.


The problem there lies in the fact that 70% of the population identifies as Christian - but when you break it down, how many of them have actually picked up the bible, or gone to church?

For instance, in my family - I have a mother, brother and father.  Out of everyone, all four of identify as "Christian" but I'm the only one who has gone to a church for a reason other than a wedding or a funeral in the past 20 years.

On the flip side, you have the people that everyone else is talking about - the power hungry, the people who use Christ's teachings as a bastardization to segregate and create hate, but they are an even smaller population.  They just happen to be the loudest sometimes because it's cool to hate, and they say the most sensationalized things.

No one wants to listen to a reasoned argument and discussion of faith - everyone just wants a 2 second soundbite that sounds good on a headline.
 
2013-03-31 07:24:59 PM

The_Forensicator: sugardave: On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things.

the President runs things.  He is Christian.  Do not pass go or collect $200.


And your point?
 
2013-03-31 07:25:47 PM

CanisNoir: You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society. People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.
 
2013-03-31 07:26:05 PM

CanisNoir: jso2897: Yep - and that applies when they elect the executives who appoint the judges who often end up ruling on these matters, too.
Democracy - it's a biatch when your worn out value system is losing.


Personally I think the Court is going to strike down DOMA and let Prop 8 stand, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states. As for a "worn out value system losing ground" I don't think that it is, it might be losing ground on some areas but it's gaining ground on others. There are far worse things, in my mind, than two people of the same sex loving each other and all of them have contributed to the moral wasteland that we currently find ourselves in more than homosexuality.


Ironically, the main goals of the gay rights movement  thus far are themselves conservative: the right to serve in the military, the right to adopt and raise children, the right to marriage. Kind of funny.
 
2013-03-31 07:27:00 PM

sugardave: The_Forensicator: sugardave: On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things.

the President runs things.  He is Christian.  Do not pass go or collect $200.

And your point?


Just pointing out the incredible fallacy within your rant.
 
2013-03-31 07:27:35 PM

thismomentinblackhistory: But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.


They did? They actually gave money out of their pocket to individual sick people and handed out food to the hungry? Maybe a few of them took people in off the streets and offered them shelter and I completely missed that news cycle. Passing the bill is not a "good work" - if anything it's contrary to that because it forces people against their will.
 
2013-03-31 07:27:45 PM

sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?


There you go again with the "Christian's".  SOME Christian's do that.  I am not going to threaten you with eternal damnation.  Your soul is of no concern to me.

As a matter of fact, I was sitting on the toilet taking a shiat this morning and I thought it would really funny when all the people who bastardize Christianity to spread hate end up with all the people they hate in the afterlife for forever.
 
2013-03-31 07:27:49 PM

MisterTweak: If that's too socialist for you, can I suggest, perhaps, Somalia?


Nice! You have the liturgy totally down.
 
2013-03-31 07:28:30 PM

skilbride: Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.

Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


Yeah but that's only if you say "Government is helping the poor so I'll just sit on my ass and take the easy train to heaven." You're still free to be Christ like even if the government isn't purposely punishing poor people for being poor.
 
2013-03-31 07:28:56 PM

Fubini: . Religious purity through murder is clearly an unbiblical thing to do.


uHH.. are we reading the same bible here? Because I'm pretty sure a sh*tload of middle easterners were sliced, diced, stabbed, burned, swallowed by the earth, and some pretty other farked up things for having the utter cheek to worship another god.
 
2013-03-31 07:29:02 PM

ArgusRun: Hey this is the first time the politics tab is less nauseating than the sports tab.


Really? What's going on over there?

/peeks

/reads article on athlete's charities

///Yeesh. You're right.
 
2013-03-31 07:29:05 PM

Amos Quito: [25.media.tumblr.com image 300x410]

Christianity is all about Single Payer


What could your parents have possibly done to you?
 
2013-03-31 07:29:16 PM

skilbride: Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.


You have to understand my position on American Christianity which is that it's a two thousand year old, Jewish mystery cult that somehow managed to propagate its ideas at the expense of the other mystery cults of the time. You don't have original texts for your holy book (which you claim is divinely inspired) and the closer you get to the origin of the religion, the more contradictory the written accounts become. You worship an invisible entity for which there is no documented evidence that does not also exist for any number of other deities, demigods and saints. In the exercise of your faith you eschew compassion in favor of judgement and are more concerned with the possibility of accumulating merit for a promised afterlife than ensuring that suffering is relieved in the only life you actually have evidence of.

Explain to me why I should want to talk to you.
 
2013-03-31 07:29:21 PM

The_Forensicator: sugardave: The_Forensicator: sugardave: On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things.

the President runs things.  He is Christian.  Do not pass go or collect $200.

And your point?

Just pointing out the incredible fallacy within your rant.


Which is....what, exactly? I regularly biatch about every politician who couches legislation with some religious bullshiat
 
2013-03-31 07:29:49 PM

CanisNoir: thismomentinblackhistory: But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.

They did? They actually gave money out of their pocket to individual sick people and handed out food to the hungry? Maybe a few of them took people in off the streets and offered them shelter and I completely missed that news cycle. Passing the bill is not a "good work" - if anything it's contrary to that because it forces people against their will.


I just don't see how a legislator passing bills in the best interest of the electorate could be the opposite of "good work." They may do the direct action you mention in their daily lives, but shouldn't everyone try to do "good work" in their professional capacity as well?
 
2013-03-31 07:30:04 PM

ox45tallboy: CanisNoir: You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.

So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society. People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.


Okay, so let's talk about that.  If the job of government is to help people in that sense, wouldn't it make sense to regulate health costs then?  Instead of doing that, ObamaCare just forces us to buy insurance.  They should be regulating the costs associated with healthcare.

The major reason why single payer works out of the United States is not because people pay into it - but because countries say to the people who provide the healthcare and healthcare supplies, "We will not pay a penny over this amount, or you can go fark yourself."  If the government regulated that similar to how European countries did - wouldn't that be a better step in the right direction?
 
2013-03-31 07:30:48 PM

skilbride: The problem there lies in the fact that 70% of the population identifies as Christian - but when you break it down, how many of them have actually picked up the bible, or gone to church?


So you're saying they're not from Scotland?
 
2013-03-31 07:30:49 PM

skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

There you go again with the "Christian's".  SOME Christian's do that.  I am not going to threaten you with eternal damnation.  Your soul is of no concern to me.

As a matter of fact, I was sitting on the toilet taking a shiat this morning and I thought it would really funny when all the people who bastardize Christianity to spread hate end up with all the people they hate in the afterlife for forever.


Yes, Christians....ALL of them. Prove me wrong.
 
2013-03-31 07:30:51 PM

ilambiquated: Paul says something about homosexuality, but unfortunately he uses the word "arsenokoitai", which is unknown in any other writings, so it's anyone's guess what it really means. So maybe it isn't homosexuality at all.


It sounds very close to "arse coitus" tbh. I wonder if that's why the fundie jagoffs decided to run with it.
 
2013-03-31 07:31:04 PM

CanisNoir: I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states.


That's not what libertarian means. Or do you mean to say the slave holding Confederacy was a libertarian paradise?
 
2013-03-31 07:31:15 PM

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


Of course not. They worship mainly Paul's teachings, with a smidgen of Old Testament thrown in where it feels good.
 
2013-03-31 07:31:34 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection. And many of them don't spend a lot of time convincing the believers that they shouldn't believe in the resurrection.

The most interesting explanation I heard is Jesus was drugged and after 6 hours he was taken down alive. (Six hours isn't a lot of time to die by being crucified.) The materials taken to the tomb were medicines, he was healed up and beat cheeks out of the Middle East with his wife Mary.

But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.


Oooh, that's interesting.

/Also, holy fark this author sounds like a decent human being. I'd forgotten they existed.
 
2013-03-31 07:32:11 PM

skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?


farm6.staticflickr.com
 
2013-03-31 07:34:13 PM

ox45tallboy: So forget it about being "good" or "evil" in a sense of what God thinks about it, and look at it as being what's best for society.


The problem is, the article was speaking strictly from a Theological perspective, and I disagree with the authors assertions.

People going into bankruptcy over medical bills, while others live like kings because they are able to force people to pay outrageous amounts for medical care or face death, is NOT good for any society.

There will always be inequality in a society that is free, the goal is to walk the line close enough so that there is as little inequality as possible while still allowing for the most freedom. Life isn't fair, and we don't all have equal amounts of talents in equal things, that's just the way it is. That is the whole "theological" side of the debate on Health Care. Allow for more freedom and convince those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less, and they shall be doing "good works" and be blessed. It's a less cynical view of mankind in the sense that it's foundation is based upon the thought that people can and will be kind to their fellow man without having a loaded gun to their head or be threatened by jail time.
 
2013-03-31 07:35:59 PM

dookdookdook: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.

Interesting concept.


Sarcasm? Your profile indicates you are not a "deep" thinker. You may be out of your depth here.
 
2013-03-31 07:36:11 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: skilbride: Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.

You have to understand my position on American Christianity which is that it's a two thousand year old, Jewish mystery cult that somehow managed to propagate its ideas at the expense of the other mystery cults of the time. You don't have original texts for your holy book (which you claim is divinely inspired) and the closer you get to the origin of the religion, the more contradictory the written accounts become. You worship an invisible entity for which there is no documented evidence that does not also exist for any number of other deities, demigods and saints. In the exercise of your faith you eschew compassion in favor of judgement and are more concerned with the possibility of accumulating merit for a promised afterlife than ensuring that suffering is relieved in the only life you actually have evidence of.

Explain to me why I should want to talk to you.


Well, on a very base level, you should at least understand the different sects of Christianity.  For instance, at my Church, we do not believe that the bible is the divine word of God in a literal sense.  It is instead the inspired word of God - but subject to the flaws of men.  You take the good from it, and you exclude the contradictory.  It's a set of guidelines to live by, compassion, charity and faith in God.

And while it is possible that you could be right, and there could be no God, and that since there is no physical proof of that, I could be totally screwed, because I choose to live my life using those basic principals and teachings I have learned, I know that I am living a better life.  People use all sorts of crutches to make it through life, like alcohol, drugs, posting vitriol online on message boards because you are too intimated to do it in real life - but just like I would not judge you based on your crutch of poison, I would ask you not to judge me on mine.
 
2013-03-31 07:36:11 PM

quatchi: If, as the anti-SSM crowd would have it, the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, then pardon me, but what the H-E-double-hockey-sticks are we doing spending so much time, energy and effort fighting to overturn Obamacare? If the role of government is to enforce Biblical morality, isn't Obamacare - providing the security of medical insurance coverage to a multitude of poor, sick people who couldn't get it before, the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done??

Am I the only one who kept scrolling back up to the top of the page to make sure this was actually on Red State?

I kid but good on Erik the RedStater for promoting this "alternative" POV.


Early April Fools Joke + Poe's Law?
 
2013-03-31 07:36:15 PM

Fubini: Wolf_Blitzer: The very idea of heresy is oppression incarnate. When Jesus comes back and tells you what to believe, then you can call it heresy. Until then, its just man killing man for saying the wrong things.

Two problems with that: the first is that Jesus was already here, and he told us some things then. The second is that the Church is allowed to create orthodoxy and then label as heretic anything that runs contrary to those beliefs. One of the fundamental roles of the Church is to act as a moral compass for itself and society, and in order to do that it must be able to label some things as morally right and some things as morally wrong.

I'm using heresy here in the context of belief systems, not of violent reprisals. Religious purity through murder is clearly an unbiblical thing to do.


Then considering that every major Christian sect has engaged in murder to enforce its orthodoxy, all Christians are heretics by your definition.
 
2013-03-31 07:36:54 PM
FTFA: Hopefully, the above is enough to establish my Christian, conservative bona fides (and yes, the order of those adjectives is deliberate)

When you think about how much time and energy the authot had to spend to verify said credentials, it tells you what the problem is: the fact that an idea cannot stand alone on it own merits. The source communicator must also be ideologically pristine. Interestingly enough, other than the author's own self-id as such, there is nothing about those statements he made that a conservative Jew or Muslim could not have also said.
 
2013-03-31 07:37:35 PM

CanisNoir: thismomentinblackhistory: But the legislators who voted for the Bill and the President himself did "good work" thus pleasing Jesus.

They did? They actually gave money out of their pocket to individual sick people and handed out food to the hungry? Maybe a few of them took people in off the streets and offered them shelter and I completely missed that news cycle. Passing the bill is not a "good work" - if anything it's contrary to that because it forces people against their will.


That's a load of crap.

It's a cop out. A way of avoiding your moral duties to your fellow man without having to recognize what a dick you're being.

I've seen that argument or some variation of it argued in online discussion threads for well over a decade.

Here's the deal.

Good acts are good acts whether they are initiated and carried out through people as individuals or collectively by a government that works to represent the people's interests.

Nobody is forcing you to live in a modern society replete with safety nets including SS, welfare, HC access etc.

You're perfectly free to move to live in a hermitage in the middle of woods or emigrate.
 
2013-03-31 07:37:37 PM

sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

There you go again with the "Christian's".  SOME Christian's do that.  I am not going to threaten you with eternal damnation.  Your soul is of no concern to me.

As a matter of fact, I was sitting on the toilet taking a shiat this morning and I thought it would really funny when all the people who bastardize Christianity to spread hate end up with all the people they hate in the afterlife for forever.

Yes, Christians....ALL of them. Prove me wrong.


Well, I'm a Christian, and I'm saying that I don't give a shiat about where you go or what happens after this life.  But if you needed something, and it was within my power to help you, I would.  So, keep my name, my email is stephanie*d­o­r­man[nospam-﹫-backwards]lia­mg*c­om and if you ever hit a hard spot, reach out to me and I'll show you how Christian's are supposed to be.
 
2013-03-31 07:39:11 PM

GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.


Absolutely right.  Jesus never said nothing about buying health care.
In fact, he made repeated and personal examples of how it should be handed out to whomever needed it, completely free of charge.
 
2013-03-31 07:40:03 PM

CanisNoir: sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?

You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.


So are you basically saying that Christianity doesn't actually care if poor people are given food and shelter, but that it only cares if about the act of giving freely? Christian morality is not about actual, tangible suffering of people with need?
 
2013-03-31 07:40:36 PM

skilbride: Okay, so let's talk about that. If the job of government is to help people in that sense, wouldn't it make sense to regulate health costs then? Instead of doing that, ObamaCare just forces us to buy insurance. They should be regulating the costs associated with healthcare.

The major reason why single payer works out of the United States is not because people pay into it - but because countries say to the people who provide the healthcare and healthcare supplies, "We will not pay a penny over this amount, or you can go fark yourself." If the government regulated that similar to how European countries did - wouldn't that be a better step in the right direction?


Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. However, there is no way in this world that Congress in 2009 was going to agree with that, period. The Republicans would have shut down government before letting anyone mention the word "single payer".

Obamacare is not in any sense some magical solution to health care in the United States. It will come with its own set of problems that no one is even imagining right now. BUT it is a step in the right direction. It is better than what we had.

I agree that price controls by large purchasers are the way to go. One way that might be accomplished is exactly how it is done now, with larger insurers agreeing to pay only a certain amount for particular treatments, or else force all of their insured to seek treatment at an alternate facility or from a different doctor. The main foreseeable problem is that with health insurance profits set to a percentage of income, it is actually financially beneficial for the health insurance companies to pay MORE rather than LESS for most treatments, in the same way a "cost plus" contract with the government will skyrocket over budget immediately.

But yes, single payer is a much better system than Obamacare. But Obamacare is better than the status quo in the US.
 
2013-03-31 07:40:50 PM

skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.

Where exactly did I threaten you?

Christians threaten every non-believer with eternal damnation EVERY DAY. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

There you go again with the "Christian's".  SOME Christian's do that.  I am not going to threaten you with eternal damnation.  Your soul is of no concern to me.

As a matter of fact, I was sitting on the toilet taking a shiat this morning and I thought it would really funny when all the people who bastardize Christianity to spread hate end up with all the people they hate in the afterlife for forever.

Yes, Christians....ALL of them. Prove me wrong.

Well, I'm a Christian, and I'm saying that I don't give a shiat about where you go or what happens after this life.  But if you needed something, and it was within my power to help you, I would.  So, keep my name, my email is st­ep­h­anie*dor­man[nospam-﹫-backwards]l­iamg­*com and if you ever hit a hard spot, reach out to me and I'll show you how Christian's are supposed to be.


Sounds great, but you could be lying, as it is a well-known trait of Christians that telling lies is okay as long as it promotes their message. So, to me, it's still all Christians
 
2013-03-31 07:41:57 PM

CanisNoir: I'm more libertarian than conservative and feel that it should be left up to the states


An actual libertarian would be concerned with actual *individual" rights rather than some imagined arbitrary collectivism, don't you think?
 
2013-03-31 07:42:04 PM

redmond24: Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.

There's a fine line between saying something provocative and saying something stupid. You crossed it.


most chrisitan organizations here in the US don't follow the teachings of Christ.  oh some do, and those are pretty awesome...but healing the sick?  helping the poor?  that's not something US christian organizations do much of anymore.  nope, they preach about gays, sin, hellfire and the evils of any faith but their own.
 
2013-03-31 07:42:10 PM

CanisNoir: Lionel Mandrake: There is nothing "Christian" about being anti-marriage equality. It's just raw, crass bigotry.

And here it is, the end game... It's not Bigotry, and there *is* marriage equality. Nobody is telling any man that they can't marry a woman, or a woman that she can't marry a man. Everyone has the same right to get married. It's marriage re-definition, not equality that you're after, and once you have it, then you can scream "bigotry" at any religious institution that doesn't want to go along with your re-definition due to moral or theological reasons. The Islamic faith is the harshest against homosexuals and most of the biblical teachings espoused today against it are from the Jewish teachings, yet for some reason most people who speak out for it, categorize Christians as the big meanies in this whole debate. Right now there's a majority of Americans who are against it, the number is shrinking, sure, but it's still a majority, and the last I looked, there's people of all faiths in this country, so who's to say that it's only Christians voting against it?

As for Obamacare being a philosophy that Jesus would have supported, I highly doubt it. Pretty sure his teachings were about focusing on your own soul and not about having the Government force you to care for the poor through taxation.

As for pulling the voting levers to enforce morality, well, that's just something you're going to have to swallow if you want to live in a democratic republic, where we, the people, attempt to govern ourselves. The reasons behind the choices we make can't be gotten rid of - Those who support Gay Marriage vote the way they do out of a personal set of ethics, just as those who are against it do. They are both entitled to vote based upon their personal ethics regardless of how they came about them.


Congrats potatohead your are the first person on my ignore list, a feature I might add I have made fun of others for using. Reading the mental vomit that you seem to think are pithy words however, is five seconds I can use to do something constructive like pick my nose.
 
2013-03-31 07:44:36 PM

skilbride: The bible is our holy book. Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height of hypocrisy


How about if we just roll our eyes and "call you out" for being an allegedly sentient being in the 21st century who believes in a holy book? There are people in the world who are discovering amazing new real things every day, and a lot of us are tired of having to "respect" the magical thinking practiced by fearful idiots clutching a book of stories made up by illiterate shepherds as they crouched around a dung fire 2,000 years ago, making up stories to explain where the sun goes at night.
 
2013-03-31 07:45:01 PM

ox45tallboy: Obamacare is not in any sense some magical solution to health care in the United States. It will come with its own set of problems that no one is even imagining right now. BUT it is a step in the right direction. It is better than what we had.


See, I have a much deeper fear about ObamaCare - in that it will just end there.  We will be forced to buy healthcare, but the insurance companies won't be forced to reduce costs.

All that does is deepen their pockets, and shorten ours.  And honestly, it kinda already seems like that has happened.
 
2013-03-31 07:46:29 PM
Half of the people there in the comments disagreeing because of what the OT says are probably wearing mixed fabric clothing and enjoy pork, crab, and lobster.

The quicker that all Christians can all look at the OT and see an outdated blueprint for establishing a standing society out of a nomadic tribe, the better off we all will be.
 
2013-03-31 07:46:55 PM

CanisNoir: There will always be inequality in a society that is free, the goal is to walk the line close enough so that there is as little inequality as possible while still allowing for the most freedom. Life isn't fair, and we don't all have equal amounts of talents in equal things, that's just the way it is. That is the whole "theological" side of the debate on Health Care. Allow for more freedom and convince those with plenty to give some of it, of their own free will, to those with less, and they shall be doing "good works" and be blessed. It's a less cynical view of mankind in the sense that it's foundation is based upon the thought that people can and will be kind to their fellow man without having a loaded gun to their head or be threatened by jail time.


But the problem is that there are tons of people that either don't believe in the afterlife or just don't give a sh*t. Pure, unadulterated capitalism provides no incentive for charitable giving, thus the need to invent the idea of an "afterlife" where all of the good that one does in this life results in a comfortable and blessed situation after death.

I call it stupid, but it's worked for nearly all of recorded history. The problem now is that many people are rejecting the notion of suffering now for Good Things after death. Some religious leaders are altering their message to maintain congregational numbers through things such as "Prosperity Gospel".

So what do you do when you can't convince people to give in this lifetime? You show them how much it does benefit them through lower crime rates and a better educated employees, with more art and culture due to the fact that people are creating it instead of begging for survival.

Most of humanity is beginning to be past the need for religion.
 
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