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(RedState)   If the levers of State are to be wielded to enforce the commands of Scripture, such as not allowing gay marriage, then why the hell are we opposing Obamacare - which is the most Christ-like thing the government has ever done?   (redstate.com) divider line 522
    More: Interesting, obamacare, No Regrets, no compromise, protest vote, eternal life, same-sex marriages, Bob Dole, Biden  
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4072 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-31 06:47:07 PM  
It's amusing that someone thinks Christians give a damn about what the Bible says.
 
2013-03-31 06:47:30 PM  

gingerjet: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

To be fair - no one made it to age 34 in JC's time.


Actually, average life expectancy was very low in ancient times because of extraordinarily high infant mortality. If you were sturdy enough to make it into adulthood you had a pretty decent chance of living into old age. Not as high a chance as today, nor as old as you'd be today, but older than 34 to be sure.
 
2013-03-31 06:48:12 PM  

Amos Quito: [www.politicalnewsnow.com image 585x378]


Love that while they made it crystal-clear that's meant to be Obama (ears, wide black-guy nose), they also want to make it clear that they're totally not being racist by making him practically caucasian.
 
2013-03-31 06:50:03 PM  
All of Jesus' examples of caring for the sick involved conjuring them magically to health at no cost with sorcerous powers inherited from your father.

I'm... not really sure that translates to, y'know, reality, where caring for sickness involves effort and expenditure of resources well in excess of negligible inconvenience.
 
2013-03-31 06:52:49 PM  

queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?


No, he didn't.
 
2013-03-31 06:53:02 PM  
Matthew 25:31-46
New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.  32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world.  35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,  36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?  38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?  39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,  43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
2013-03-31 06:55:01 PM  

Jim_Callahan: All of Jesus' examples of caring for the sick involved conjuring them magically to health at no cost with sorcerous powers inherited from your father.

I'm... not really sure that translates to, y'know, reality, where caring for sickness involves effort and expenditure of resources well in excess of negligible inconvenience.


He most definitely promoted caring for others at the expense of yourself. A common biblical metaphor for describing conversion to Christianity is to "die" to yourself, in the sense that you deny your own desires, wants, and even needs, for the sake of loving others.
 
2013-03-31 06:55:34 PM  

Amos Quito: Meanwhile back at the ranch...


The Supreme Court ruled it constitutional. What are you whining about?
 
2013-03-31 06:55:41 PM  
Hi!  Christian over here!

I really want to talk politics with you guys, but I don't feel like I can particularly   It's not that I am a person who goes around trying to convince people to join my church, or I spend a lot of time talking about my personal relationship with God... but I get the feeling that among the liberal crowd in fark I'm not welcome.

Never mind that I think there should be some sort of baseline healthcare (although I don't agree forcing us to pay insurance companies is the way to do it), nevermind that I actually think gays should be allowed to marry (and have picked a church that supports my views) but the mere fact that I believe in God, and Christ, has made me feel like - in these threads at least - even if I get into the nitty gritty and explain to you why the people really hate this kind of stuff, you would disregard and attack me because of my faith.

So if you really want to know, I can tell you how it contradicts with the Christian values - but if you're just trolling and getting on the Christian hate train, I won't waste my breath.
 
2013-03-31 06:56:47 PM  

Gulper Eel: Deuteronomy 15:11a(3)(m)(7): And yea and verily shalt thou give Caesar a piece of the action, and fillest out ye the multitudes of forms in triplicate, taking care that thou usest the blue pen and not the black which is forbidden, and if thou liketh not the ordeal ye shall be cast into Somalia to wail and grind your teeth, for maybe ye like it better there. Thus endeth the argument, for the almighty State shall grow forever and ever, amen*.

* - 'amen' is not intended as an endorsement of any religion, creed, or spiritual worldview


In the old testament, you can learn what God does to a nation of whiny biatches.  Well, a nation he likes.
 
2013-03-31 06:58:05 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: There is nothing "Christian" about being anti-marriage equality. It's just raw, crass bigotry.


And here it is, the end game... It's not Bigotry, and there *is* marriage equality. Nobody is telling any man that they can't marry a woman, or a woman that she can't marry a man. Everyone has the same right to get married. It's marriage re-definition, not equality that you're after, and once you have it, then you can scream "bigotry" at any religious institution that doesn't want to go along with your re-definition due to moral or theological reasons. The Islamic faith is the harshest against homosexuals and most of the biblical teachings espoused today against it are from the Jewish teachings, yet for some reason most people who speak out for it, categorize Christians as the big meanies in this whole debate. Right now there's a majority of Americans who are against it, the number is shrinking, sure, but it's still a majority, and the last I looked, there's people of all faiths in this country, so who's to say that it's only Christians voting against it?

As for Obamacare being a philosophy that Jesus would have supported, I highly doubt it. Pretty sure his teachings were about focusing on your own soul and not about having the Government force you to care for the poor through taxation.

As for pulling the voting levers to enforce morality, well, that's just something you're going to have to swallow if you want to live in a democratic republic, where we, the people, attempt to govern ourselves. The reasons behind the choices we make can't be gotten rid of - Those who support Gay Marriage vote the way they do out of a personal set of ethics, just as those who are against it do. They are both entitled to vote based upon their personal ethics regardless of how they came about them.
 
2013-03-31 06:58:15 PM  
www.buzzflash.com www.buzzflash.com
 
2013-03-31 06:58:19 PM  

KWess: GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.

There is actually some things, but they won't be particularly reassuring for the 'I got mine' crowd.


How about this:

Leviticus 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling-block before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

And this:

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

And more broadly speaking:

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, 'The seventh year, the year of release is near,' and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, 'You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.'

Also, it seems to me that Jesus ran a series of free walk-in clinics:

Matthew 4:23-24 And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people. So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by dem ...


The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.
 
2013-03-31 06:59:09 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


Interesting concept.
 
2013-03-31 07:00:20 PM  

skilbride: Hi!  Christian over here!

I really want to talk politics with you guys, but I don't feel like I can particularly   It's not that I am a person who goes around trying to convince people to join my church, or I spend a lot of time talking about my personal relationship with God... but I get the feeling that among the liberal crowd in fark I'm not welcome.

Never mind that I think there should be some sort of baseline healthcare (although I don't agree forcing us to pay insurance companies is the way to do it), nevermind that I actually think gays should be allowed to marry (and have picked a church that supports my views) but the mere fact that I believe in God, and Christ, has made me feel like - in these threads at least - even if I get into the nitty gritty and explain to you why the people really hate this kind of stuff, you would disregard and attack me because of my faith.

So if you really want to know, I can tell you how it contradicts with the Christian values - but if you're just trolling and getting on the Christian hate train, I won't waste my breath.


Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!
 
2013-03-31 07:00:31 PM  

pounddawg: TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection. And many of them don't spend a lot of time convincing the believers that they shouldn't believe in the resurrection.

The most interesting explanation I heard is Jesus was drugged and after 6 hours he was taken down alive. (Six hours isn't a lot of time to die by being crucified.) The materials taken to the tomb were medicines, he was healed up and beat cheeks out of the Middle East with his wife Mary.

But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.

Read "The Passover Plot"  It describes Jesus being drugged with concoction that would mask death (like in Romeo and Juliet) Then he was taken down and healed. Wala.

/Honestly I don't know what happened. I wasn't there


Personally, I liked Christopher Moore's version: Lamb. But I'll check that one out, too.
 
2013-03-31 07:01:13 PM  

balloot: It's amusing that someone thinks Christians give a damn about what the Bible says.


The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve.
 
2013-03-31 07:01:58 PM  
IF it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god then republicans should be thanking Obama for all that wealth they claim is being communist'd out of their bank accounts and dumping them into poverty
 
2013-03-31 07:02:43 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.


I've been a Christian my entire life and I've never heard anyone who self-identified as a Christian take that point of view. I don't believe that there are "a lot" of Christian leaders who reject it.

There have been a lot of Christian heresies, but very few of them reject the divinity of Jesus. At that point you're not really Christian anymore.
 
2013-03-31 07:02:55 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


Except when it applies to what you do in your bedroom.
 
2013-03-31 07:03:16 PM  

CanisNoir: It's not Bigotry, and there *is* marriage equality. Nobody is telling any man that they can't marry a woman, or a woman that she can't marry a man. Everyone has the same right to get married.


Go fark yourself.
 
2013-03-31 07:04:16 PM  

sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!


I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.
 
2013-03-31 07:04:19 PM  
Is this all you guys have? I am disappoint.
 
2013-03-31 07:04:19 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.
 
2013-03-31 07:05:46 PM  
I actually thought the article was quite good all in all. Can't believe it was on RedState.
 
2013-03-31 07:06:30 PM  
Seriously, subby? Are you really trying to make sense of what people think they want? Here's all the sense there is about it: People who oppose gay marriage oppose it because religion, or their parents, told them gays are evil. People who oppose Obamacare oppose it because the Tea Party and other political organs of the ultra-rich have told them anything Obama does is evil. People are gullible and don't think much, but they have exceedingly tenacious opinions.
 
2013-03-31 07:07:15 PM  

12349876: TheShavingofOccam123: I''m amazed at how many theologians don't believe in the resurrection.

The oldest versions of the oldest gospel Mark end at the empty tomb verse 16:8.


And there are two different added on endings. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church uses a different one than the Roman Catholic Church.
 
2013-03-31 07:07:18 PM  

GAT_00: queezyweezel: Didn't JC advocate free will?  I don't think the Government forcing you to buy health insurance follows that principle.

Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.


You may have overlooked one there.


Matthew 25:41-46
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
 
2013-03-31 07:08:25 PM  

skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.


I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.
 
2013-03-31 07:08:33 PM  
Because they love the Almighty Dollar more than the Almighty God?

They beat their chests that they are Christian as long as being Christian doesn't mean that they actually have to make sacrifices. Because being an actual Jesus like Christian is hard work. It's easier to just slap one of those fish plates on your bumper and than to volunteer at the local soup kitchen or homeless shelter.

And I find the Christians that do without so that there fellow man can have as well as volunteer to help those less fortunate are less likely to brag about how Christian they are. I think it's because they don't have time to brag. They are busy being Christians.
 
2013-03-31 07:08:38 PM  

Fubini: TheShavingofOccam123: But as I said, there seems to be a lot of Christian leaders who have beat cheeks from the resurrection. The fact that their underlings have abandoned many of the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount shouldn't be surprising either.

I've been a Christian my entire life and I've never heard anyone who self-identified as a Christian take that point of view. I don't believe that there are "a lot" of Christian leaders who reject it.

There have been a lot of Christian heresies, but very few of them reject the divinity of Jesus. At that point you're not really Christian anymore.


The very idea of heresy is oppression incarnate. When Jesus comes back and tells you what to believe, then you can call it heresy. Until then, its just man killing man for saying the wrong things.
 
2013-03-31 07:09:57 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.


Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.
 
2013-03-31 07:10:42 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.


Of course he cared, his ministry was primarily to the poor and downtrodden, however, he didn't expect Rome or The Temple to provide the food and roof, he wanted people to do it out of their own love of their fellow man, on an individual basis. His message wasn't "Do what Cesar says and you shall go to Heaven" - it was "Do as The Lord God commands and you shall go to heaven."

He wasn't too fond of the Jewish priest class at the time as he felt they were part of the problem, and instead focused on people individually connecting with God.
 
2013-03-31 07:11:00 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The key point here is that Christ was speaking about voluntary INDIVIDUAL actions - NOT collective actions forced at the end of a government gun. Morality pertains to individuals, not collectives.


Jesus never forbade his followers from engaging in politics or enacting laws that promote Christian values. He DOES command Christians to not pass judgement on others or to impose morality on others.

Scripturally, I can support the ACA because I'm a Christian and I think we should provide for the needy, but I can't support DOMA legislation because I think it's wrong that the gays are getting married. However, I shouldn't support the ACA because I think that all the heathens aren't doing enough to support the needy.

It's a fine line.
 
2013-03-31 07:12:01 PM  

GAT_00: Yes, let's examine all of Christ's teachings on buying health care:

...

...

...

Fascinating.



While we're at it, can we look at Christ's teachings on homosexuality and gay marriage?

That should take about the same amount of time.
 
2013-03-31 07:12:36 PM  

skilbride: Never mind that I think there should be some sort of baseline healthcare (although I don't agree forcing us to pay insurance companies is the way to do it), nevermind that I actually think gays should be allowed to marry (and have picked a church that supports my views) but the mere fact that I believe in God, and Christ, has made me feel like - in these threads at least - even if I get into the nitty gritty and explain to you why the people really hate this kind of stuff, you would disregard and attack me because of my faith.


The loudest voices who proclaim their Christianity on the national level seem to follow espouse Prosperity Gospel and come nowhere close to following Jesus's example and teachings. If a you're a Christian who isn't here to tear down that abomination of faith, you're part of the problem, and deserve all the scorn you receive.

We already know how they contradict Christian values. What we can't stand is that so many other religious types defend people who call themselves Christian rather than people who actually practice Christian teachings. Their ideology is so toxic that there really is no defending it. If you support it at all, for any reason, even one as nebulous as the label "Christianity", you are too corrupt for anything but ridicule.
 
2013-03-31 07:12:56 PM  

skilbride: Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying Christ didn't give a fark whether the poor were actually fed or had a roof over their head, what was important was the exercise of free will in giving to the poor. That's an interesting take on Christianity; farked up, but interesting.

Okay, I'll put it a different way.  There's an idea in the Christian Church that giving (or doing something) isn't really important unless it's at a true sacrifice to yourself.  So, there's a couple ways this plays out - first of all, you can't give and then gloat and be like, "Look how awesome I am because I gave to the poor!"  You can't give and expect something in return.  And it's not really giving if it doesn't, in somehow, take away from you.   Those are the deeds which Christian's should aim to achieve.

So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


OH NOES THEY MIGHT HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO BE CHRISTIAN!!

Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?
 
2013-03-31 07:13:23 PM  

balloot: It's amusing that someone thinks Christians give a damn about what the Bible says.


Of course they do, especially when they can find a piece of scripture to reinforce their already strongly held belief, even if it means ignoring other pieces of scripture that go against other strongly held beliefs, or even the same one!
 
2013-03-31 07:13:55 PM  

sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.

I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.


Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.
 
2013-03-31 07:15:51 PM  
Paul says something about homosexuality, but unfortunately he uses the word "arsenokoitai", which is unknown in any other writings, so it's anyone's guess what it really means. So maybe it isn't homosexuality at all.
 
2013-03-31 07:16:10 PM  

Fubini: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


I always liked Terry Pratchett's take on that one:

"The merest accident of microgeography had meant that the first man to hear the voice of Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world, and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led."
 
2013-03-31 07:17:01 PM  

CanisNoir: Lionel Mandrake: There is nothing "Christian" about being anti-marriage equality. It's just raw, crass bigotry.

And here it is, the end game... It's not Bigotry, and there *is* marriage equality. Nobody is telling any man that they can't marry a woman, or a woman that she can't marry a man. Everyone has the same right to get married. It's marriage re-definition, not equality that you're after, and once you have it, then you can scream "bigotry" at any religious institution that doesn't want to go along with your re-definition due to moral or theological reasons. The Islamic faith is the harshest against homosexuals and most of the biblical teachings espoused today against it are from the Jewish teachings, yet for some reason most people who speak out for it, categorize Christians as the big meanies in this whole debate. Right now there's a majority of Americans who are against it, the number is shrinking, sure, but it's still a majority, and the last I looked, there's people of all faiths in this country, so who's to say that it's only Christians voting against it?

As for Obamacare being a philosophy that Jesus would have supported, I highly doubt it. Pretty sure his teachings were about focusing on your own soul and not about having the Government force you to care for the poor through taxation.

As for pulling the voting levers to enforce morality, well, that's just something you're going to have to swallow if you want to live in a democratic republic, where we, the people, attempt to govern ourselves. The reasons behind the choices we make can't be gotten rid of - Those who support Gay Marriage vote the way they do out of a personal set of ethics, just as those who are against it do. They are both entitled to vote based upon their personal ethics regardless of how they came about them.


Yep - and that applies when they elect the executives who appoint the judges who often end up ruling on these matters, too.
Democracy - it's a biatch when your worn out value system is losing.
 
2013-03-31 07:17:23 PM  

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


There's a fine line between saying something provocative and saying something stupid. You crossed it.
 
2013-03-31 07:17:41 PM  

Wolf_Blitzer: The very idea of heresy is oppression incarnate. When Jesus comes back and tells you what to believe, then you can call it heresy. Until then, its just man killing man for saying the wrong things.


Two problems with that: the first is that Jesus was already here, and he told us some things then. The second is that the Church is allowed to create orthodoxy and then label as heretic anything that runs contrary to those beliefs. One of the fundamental roles of the Church is to act as a moral compass for itself and society, and in order to do that it must be able to label some things as morally right and some things as morally wrong.

I'm using heresy here in the context of belief systems, not of violent reprisals. Religious purity through murder is clearly an unbiblical thing to do.
 
2013-03-31 07:17:49 PM  

skilbride: So, at a fundamental level, there's a very deep fear that is not well vocalized in the Christian faith that if government forces you to do all these things that Christ says you should do - you won't get into heaven - because not only was it not a sacrifice that you made willingly, for no personal benefit - but it's something that everyone else does as well.


Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullshiat on that. About 70% if the US population self identifies as Christian and if 70% of the population were even marginally motivated to feed and put a roof over the head of the poor, we wouldn't have the poverty and homeless rates we have in this nation. Christians are all about "faith not works" and building churches the size of sports arenas. Sure, some of them may run a soup kitchen now and again but most of that "charity" is funneled back into the congregation or into the wallet of the clergy.
 
2013-03-31 07:17:53 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: The loudest voices who proclaim their Christianity on the national level seem to follow espouse Prosperity Gospel and come nowhere close to following Jesus's example and teachings. If a you're a Christian who isn't here to tear down that abomination of faith, you're part of the problem, and deserve all the scorn you receive.

We already know how they contradict Christian values. What we can't stand is that so many other religious types defend people who call themselves Christian rather than people who actually practice Christian teachings. Their ideology is so toxic that there really is no defending it. If you support it at all, for any reason, even one as nebulous as the label "Christianity", you are too corrupt for anything but ridicule.


I'm not defending anyone - I'm Episcopalian - we are pretty much the most liberal church to exist within the three major faiths.  But what I am saying that is I don't appreciate you saying that because I believe in the bible, and Christ as my savior, that I'm too corrupt for anything but ridicule.
 
2013-03-31 07:18:09 PM  

sugardave: Seriously? Does coveting a particular charitable action help or hinder your ascension to paradise?


You are completely missing his point, or purposefully trying to be obtuse. A "good" work cannot be "good" if it's forced. Christ and Christian teachings are about doing "good" works. Having the government force you to do it, takes it out of the realm of "good" works, so it's wrong to say that Jesus and Christians should support the Government forcing people to do it.
 
2013-03-31 07:18:28 PM  
Hey this is the first time the politics tab is less nauseating than the sports tab.
 
2013-03-31 07:18:52 PM  

skilbride: sugardave: skilbride: sugardave: Woo, mission accomplished...now watch this drive!

I mean seriously, look at a couple posts after yours..

"
The Bible is for justifying the the things Christians want to do, like own slaves and ostracize people that look different or like different things.

The Bible is not for describing a path to salvation that demands compassion, self control, and an honest attempt to improve."Seriously?  The bible is our holy book.  Just because some fringe assholes who we don't respect bastardize it doesn't mean you should, and to do so while calling Christian's as a whole intolerant, racist, assholes is the height ofhypocrisy.

I take it that you disagree? I think it's pretty spot-on, myself. I live in Texas, the godliest nation that ever existed, so I'm pretty comfortable labeling every last Christian as a drag on society (at best) and outright agents of evil in most cases.

Yeah, I do disagree.  I think that kind of attitude is the worst attitude to have.  It happens on both sides, but I don't see how you can justify your attitude towards all Christian's and then lame blame on those of us who are rational for not walking to talk to you.


You are laboring under the (INCREDIBLY incorrect) assumption that I want to talk to Christians. On the contrary, I want to deride them and point out their idiocy at every opportunity. Go to church, worship your drity, but STFU about it and let rational people run things. You can still feel smug that we'll all be burning in Hell, but I feel it is an unfair burden on me that I can't beat the everlasting snot out of you for threatening me.
 
2013-03-31 07:20:15 PM  

Weaver95: I don't think most christians here in the US worship Jesus Christ.


Bingo!
 
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