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(USA Today)   Kentucky passes law that will allow people to break the law in accordance with their religious faith. In related news, Al Qaida was reportedly looking for directions to Fort Campbell, KY on Google Maps   (usatoday.com) divider line 223
    More: Asinine, Google Maps, Kentucky, al-Qaeda, Steve Beshear, Kentucky Supreme Court, Capitol Steps, school prayer, Frankfort, Kentucky  
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6715 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 11:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-31 12:18:16 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: School prayer, forces a religious view on people.


Teacher-led school prayer, anyway. There will always be school prayer as long as there are students who do not study for their math tests.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:16 PM  

Curious: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs?

it's been covered but one of the main talking points is pharmacists having to dispense the morning after pill. if your job requires you to preform a legal activity you can't just say "because jesus" and not do it.


And this is where the religious confuse being forced to violate your beliefs and not being allowed to impose them on others. The government telling the pharmacist that they must take the morning after pill is the government running roughshod over their beliefs. The government telling a pharmacist that they can't withhold over the counter or prescription medications based on their personal superstitions isn't.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:19 PM  

that bosnian sniper: The funny thing is, I've already heard of a minister or two, and more than a few gay couples, in Louisville who are going to cite this very law in the course of applying for marriage licenses and marrying.


Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.

Your move, Kentucky.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:19 PM  
I don't see this law surviving a legal challenge. As far as I'm aware, and IANAL, it's been caselaw that you can practice your religion, as long as said practice does not otherwise commit a crime.

I could found a Aztec/Mayan/Mesoamerican bloodcult, but the sacrifices can't be real people. Or real animals, I think. This law would allow me to have a human sacrifice on the altar.

/Gotta prevent them volcanos from erupting.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:28 PM  

blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig


Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.
 
2013-03-31 12:21:35 PM  
They have taken their faith full potatoe!

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-03-31 12:22:43 PM  

Lawnchair: Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.


Yep. Most of the LGBT people I know have been quietly pointing and giggling since this law hit the Kentucky  General Assembly floor waiting for this to detonate in the state's face. Sure, they're disappointed and angry at the  intent of the law, but on the other hand...
 
2013-03-31 12:24:35 PM  

fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.


PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:20 PM  
Oh hey yeah, my religion allows me to live in the governors mansion, while smoking blunts with naked hookers running around the front yard. I'm also a sovereign citizen who's religion prevents me from going to jail or paying taxes.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:20 PM  
They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

Um... supremacy clause?
 
2013-03-31 12:25:36 PM  

Lawnchair: Yep, that. There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.


Unitarians are weird.

I think one once had sex with me to get them to join their church. (I guess I give off that "lost soul" aroma)

Would have been less awkward if her boyfriend hadn't been in the other room, but he didn't seem to mind... so.... yay Unitarians?
 
2013-03-31 12:25:44 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: cman: I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs? As far as I can tell, no church is being forced to perform same-sex marriages or interracial marriages for that matter.

The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:50 PM  
My religion requires the still beating heart of a republican for a weekly sacrifice.
 
2013-03-31 12:26:22 PM  

fluffy2097: blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig

Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.


Asimov also made his living writing a book into every section of the Dewey Decimal system.

Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.

The man (and his writing) had flaws, but I don't think you can use stories he wrote (and you misunderstood) to attack a very salient point he made 30 years ago that is still applicable today.
 
2013-03-31 12:26:35 PM  
This is great news for snake handlers!
 
2013-03-31 12:28:25 PM  
FINALLY!  I have a place where I can http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/13849 worship in peace...
 
2013-03-31 12:28:52 PM  

Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.


Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.
 
2013-03-31 12:29:27 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.


justice, dammit, justice
 
2013-03-31 12:30:02 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.


Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.
 
2013-03-31 12:30:10 PM  
FTFA Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Ok - so lets bring back teacher led prayer back into schools.  Just as soon as we get 100% agreement on which version of the Bible to use.

/lets see how the Catholics and evangelicals resolve this
 
2013-03-31 12:30:49 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in the courts...


Not very ironic. Back in the colonial and post-colonial days, it was the Baptists who were leading the charge in church/state separation; that's probably a living fossil example. It's the SBC that's changed on that.

that bosnian sniper: The state now must without exception show compelling interest and least-restrictive means in disallowing gay marriage, if the minister and couple involved have a sincerely-held religious belief they should be allowed to be married.


Unfortunately, this is a mere law, while Kentucky's ban on gay marriage is in its Constitution. So... no, I don't think they do. A Federal Judge might take notice in a case and make the state AG's sweat a bit; but I think the reasoning would have to be a stretch.
 
2013-03-31 12:33:35 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.

Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.


Internet elitist-like typing detected. 

Don't even have an account, just pointing out a fact that a LOT of people miss.
 
2013-03-31 12:34:35 PM  

Summercat: Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.


The subtext is that what they said did not matter.

If their inability to convince the robot was a problem, then horrible things would have happened when the storm hit.

But the robot had faith which, being trapped on a space station his entire existence, is all he really needs. He just needs to make sure the power goes where it is supposed to. Who's will it is that it be done is unimportant.

That screams an agnostic viewpoint to me.
 
2013-03-31 12:35:03 PM  

fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.


I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.
 
2013-03-31 12:35:52 PM  

Empty Matchbook: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.

Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.

Internet elitist-like typing detected. 

Don't even have an account, just pointing out a fact that a LOT of people miss.


I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.
 
2013-03-31 12:36:26 PM  

Summercat: the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.


Sounds like slavery to me. *shrug*  It's just with titanium people instead of brown people.
 
2013-03-31 12:37:13 PM  
FTA: They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

i.imgur.com

CONSTITUTIONAL LAW DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. GOODNIGHT.
 
2013-03-31 12:37:51 PM  

Summercat: I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.


I think you are not reading hard enough.

Go look at the original post of that image and what they were talking about.
 
2013-03-31 12:39:09 PM  

fluffy2097: Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.


I don't see that quote or it's usage in this thread as painting Asimov as a "fundamentalist atheist" (whatever the fark that is supposed to be). I think you may be projecting a little.

I reject the belief that any supernatural dimension exists and that all observable phenomena are the result of the physical properties of our universe. Is that sufficient to make me a "Fundamentalist Atheist"?
 
2013-03-31 12:42:06 PM  

Summercat: fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.

I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.


You know, I was so pissed off when the Foundation series revealed it was still a God Damned Robot Novel.
 
2013-03-31 12:42:38 PM  
Awesome! So now I can commit genocide with impunity because God told me too. I'm thinking I am going to start with the Methodists. Those guys have always rubbed me the wrong way.
 
2013-03-31 12:43:06 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I reject the belief that any supernatural dimension exists and affirm that all observable phenomena are the result of the physical properties of our universe. Is that sufficient to make me a "Fundamentalist Atheist"?


God damn it so much...
 
2013-03-31 12:45:21 PM  
Asimov rocks, but the go-to place for that topic is  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life
 
2013-03-31 12:46:14 PM  

AliceBToklasLives: Asimov rocks, but the go-to place for that topic is  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life


Great book.
Depressing book.
 
2013-03-31 12:47:59 PM  
While I don't think anyone should be surprised that this cunning plan was not thought all the way through, it's amusing to note that the ultimate result of this law is to grant government a massive, broad new power: the power to determine what is and is not a "sincerely held religious belief".
 
2013-03-31 12:48:16 PM  

abb3w: Unfortunately, this is a mere law, while Kentucky's ban on gay marriage is in its Constitution. So... no, I don't think they do. A Federal Judge might take notice in a case and make the state AG's sweat a bit; but I think the reasoning would have to be a stretch.


That strongly depends upon how the Supreme Court rules in the California Prop 8 case. A broad ruling in favor of Perry (which I think has a noteworthy chance) would certainly undermine the state constitutional amendment, leaving this particular law the highest apparent pedigree in which case my argument would be totally accurate.

That said, the purpose of such a challenge wouldn't be to overturn the Kentucky state constitutional amendment; it would be to overturn the law itself or remand it to the state general assembly for amendment, because of that conflict between the law and the state constitution.
 
2013-03-31 12:48:55 PM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


The issue is rather simple: The first amendment is much more nuanced than just that anyone has the right to practice their own religion without interference; it's that people derive the freedom to express their religious beliefs through not having anyone, most notably the government, impose religious beliefs on them in anyway.

This law is in complete opposition to that because it allows people to impose their religious beliefs on others.

And the bill does exactly what the Founding Fathers never wanted to see happen: let the government be the referee of religions. The bill says, "government shall prove by clear and convincing evidence prove a compelling governmental interest in establishing a burden on the freedom of religion; specify what constitutes a burden." So imagine this senario: a landlord refused to rent to a gay couple because the idea of a gay couple goes against the landlord's religious beliefs. The government say, "well, there are enough landlords out there that will rent to gay couples that this isn't a burden, the landlord has the right refuse." And now we have a new error of Jim Crow.
 
2013-03-31 12:49:57 PM  

balloot: Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.


guess that mosque in murfreesboro is a go!
 
2013-03-31 12:52:12 PM  
The United States Supreme Court already answered this question many, many years ago.  Too bad the law will fail on the first judicial review.
 
2013-03-31 12:52:14 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

Um... supremacy clause?


It's cool. We can totally go back to enslaving those pesky other colored people, treating womenfolk like chattel, and praising the ONLY recognized religion of the great country!

/Cuz... the Bible, right?
//These lawmakers should be sterilized for the greater good
 
2013-03-31 12:55:46 PM  
why didn't Iran think of this???

hell, now Iran can use this model and codify their bullsh*t of mixing religion and government.
 
2013-03-31 12:56:58 PM  
Does that mean Fark is now a religion? Because I need my Catruday's off to drink good beer and hate on our  mortal enemies Duke.


Also, Drew is Pope

www.themoralofthestoryis.com
 
2013-03-31 12:58:59 PM  
A Roman soldier stooped Rabbi Akiba and ordered him to explain the whole of the Law while standing on one foot. Rabbi Akiba answered (while standing on one foot) "Do not do to someone else what you would not care to have done to you. All the rest is commentary." Virtually every major ethical religion has a variant on this rule, except Christianity which says "Hey let's turn that upside down so it doesn't make sense! Then people will feel free to ignore it!"

Thanks again, Jesus, ya goddam hippie.
 
2013-03-31 01:00:11 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Summercat: fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.

I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.

You know, I was so pissed off when the Foundation series revealed it was still a God Damned Robot Novel.


The Foundation universe is interesting in how all those books and shorts are tied together into a single setting. As a grand setting (and ignoring the stupidity of 'Gaia', ugh), it is fairly interesting. Also complete bollocks. "Physchohistory" is just... So much fail. It's ultimately something that only works... if you only have one person acting upon it.  Further, it doesn't run into issues of cult of personality. It could predict the French Revolution - maybe. Up a point. There's simply too much chaos there.

You can predict general trends, but the idea you can have a thousand year roadmap made ahead of time is idiotic (and much of the reason why I dislike much in the way of the expanded explanation novels, aside from tieing the setting together).

But taking as each group - the Empire novels are all nicely done, as are all the Robot novels. The Foundation series, less so, I thought he was trying to overplay the fall of the Roman Empire a bit too much. He did hit upon a good point in Robots and Empire, though - assuming Spacers were a dead end, humanity needed to grow and diversify. That wouldn't happen with Earth intact to serve as a nucleus for a singular culture. In order to break the cycle of history, you'd have to break Earth away and allow the planets to evolve as themselves, not as colonies of a nascent Imperial Earth.

/spent too long on this. Oy.
 
2013-03-31 01:02:27 PM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


You gotta do what you gotta do.   A society is about cooperation and given our cultural/ethnic/racial diversity of the USA we MUST render service to others.  This is no longer a dominantly white nation where people were once discriminated based on their flavor of christianity.  This is no longer a nation of separate but equal.

  The whole we don't serve your kind here philosophy is not an option.

Additionally, allowing any one group to thumb it's nose at the law because of it's "deeply held beliefs" is an open invitation to anarchy and abuse.
 
2013-03-31 01:02:40 PM  
Packing my bags and moving to Kentucky... My faith has so much to do.
 
2013-03-31 01:03:39 PM  

clambam: A Roman soldier stooped Rabbi Akiba and ordered him to explain the whole of the Law while standing on one foot. Rabbi Akiba answered (while standing on one foot) "Do not do to someone else what you would not care to have done to you. All the rest is commentary." Virtually every major ethical religion has a variant on this rule, except Christianity which says "Hey let's turn that upside down so it doesn't make sense! Then people will feel free to ignore it!"

Thanks again, Jesus, ya goddam hippie.


I'm all for bashing idiotic Christians who misunderstand their own religion, but....

Bwha? The closest you can come to that is "Do unto others that you would have done onto you". Is that what you're talking about?
 
2013-03-31 01:04:12 PM  
Acid Baths for all the Sluts!
 
2013-03-31 01:06:06 PM  

fluffy2097: Fundamentalist Atheist's


Huh?

What the fark is a "fundamentalist atheist"?

Atheist : Found any evidence for god yet?
Fundamentalist Atheist: Nope. Have you?
Atheist:  Not yet.
Fundamentalist Atheist: Damn... people have been looking for 4000+ years and we still haven't found any evidence for god.  Everything spooky that convinces theists turns out to have a natural explanation that we can actually predict and engineer, like lightning. I'm guessing there is none.
Atheist:  Well, some day, somebody might find something
Fundamentalist Atheist:  Good luck with that. I'm not holding my breath....


Or are you thinking of the people that don't want to have the state force their kids to recite prayers led by teachers during school. OH THE HORROR!
 
2013-03-31 01:06:12 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Monkeyhouse Zendo: The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


When they scream 'Help we are being oppressed!' they are actually saying 'Help the playing field is being made level!'

They act like the previously only child who now has to deal with a younger sibling and now can't get attention or what they want all the time.
 
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