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(USA Today)   Kentucky passes law that will allow people to break the law in accordance with their religious faith. In related news, Al Qaida was reportedly looking for directions to Fort Campbell, KY on Google Maps   (usatoday.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, Google Maps, Kentucky, al-Qaeda, Steve Beshear, Kentucky Supreme Court, Capitol Steps, school prayer, Frankfort, Kentucky  
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6721 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2013 at 11:32 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



223 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-03-31 08:32:21 AM  
Silly submitter. Don't you know that law only applies to proper white God-fearing Christains?
 
2013-03-31 09:12:35 AM  
So they're giving the government the power to decide what is a legitimate religion and what religious beliefs are sincere. No way this could possibly go wrong.
 
2013-03-31 09:41:55 AM  
As a devout Goldfingerian, I look forward to my pilgrimage next week to Ft. Knox.
 
2013-03-31 10:06:20 AM  
And just like that moonshine becomes legal
 
2013-03-31 10:36:31 AM  
news.bbc.co.uk

JAH MON
 
2013-03-31 10:39:34 AM  
This sounds like a jobs creation program for lawyers.
 
2013-03-31 10:42:05 AM  
Why do they hate the Constitution?
 
2013-03-31 10:57:09 AM  
These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?
 
2013-03-31 11:17:55 AM  
I'm a devout Rastafarian.

I'll be relocating to Kentucky as soon as I can load up my VW van!
 
2013-03-31 11:18:09 AM  

cman: Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


Not with this stupid law.

"This is a piece of legislation looking for a reason," Owens said.

Like laws against gay marriage, or voter ID laws, or anti-Sharia laws.

This is a desperate move by frightened and ignorant people who have been convinced by charlatans that they are under attack.
 
2013-03-31 11:26:07 AM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


No. Because your right to your own beliefs ends well before imposing your beliefs on me.
 
2013-03-31 11:31:24 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: cman: Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?

Not with this stupid law.

"This is a piece of legislation looking for a reason," Owens said.

Like laws against gay marriage, or voter ID laws, or anti-Sharia laws.

This is a desperate move by frightened and ignorant people who have been convinced by charlatans that they are under attack.


These are the ignorant people who are claiming they are under attack and are 'protecting' their values. Apparently a core Christian value is oppressing others.
 
2013-03-31 11:33:52 AM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?




Here is how I solved it. As long as my belief did not interfere with anyone else's beliefs or harm someone. School prayer, forces a religious view on people.

You can't force a church to gay marry someone ( just like you cannot force catholic Church to remarry a divorce) but it should mean that gay people are allowed to marry elsewhere.
 
2013-03-31 11:34:49 AM  
Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.
 
2013-03-31 11:37:27 AM  
unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Ah, so the thing that lacks that is...

 "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Nope, prayer led in a government institution clearly violates the first amendment and there is a clear government interest in not allowing steps toward establishing a theocracy.  Try again?

Proponents, who include the Family Foundation and the Catholic Conference of Kentucky

not helping your case there...

... ah, so you've got nothing, and your bill fails its own standards of needing a clear and compelling government interest.  Fail.
 
2013-03-31 11:39:49 AM  
So if a Muslim father wants to stone his daughter to death for shaming the family he should take her to Kentucky?
 
2013-03-31 11:40:44 AM  
FTFA:  But Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Excelsior!

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-31 11:42:05 AM  
Well, THIS isn't going to end like that Nebraska law that ended in people from halfway across the country dumping their teenagers and driving off.
 
2013-03-31 11:46:37 AM  

cman: I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.


Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs? As far as I can tell, no church is being forced to perform same-sex marriages or interracial marriages for that matter.

The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.
 
2013-03-31 11:46:46 AM  
But Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
Have a seat my lad, we need to have a little talk.
 
2013-03-31 11:47:53 AM  
Let me guess; this is mainly geared towards outlawing abortion and birth control.
 
2013-03-31 11:48:20 AM  

Jim_Callahan: unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Ah, so the thing that lacks that is...

 "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Nope, prayer led in a government institution clearly violates the first amendment and there is a clear government interest in not allowing steps toward establishing a theocracy.  Try again?


Proponents, who include the Family Foundation and the Catholic Conference of Kentucky

not helping your case there...

... ah, so you've got nothing, and your bill fails its own standards of needing a clear and compelling government interest.  Fail.


Came to say this. Unless they've actually forbidden students from praying, I don't see a problem.
 
2013-03-31 11:50:21 AM  
Vicco, a small town in rural Appalachia,  has voted to ban discriminiation against anyone based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Let that sink in.
 
2013-03-31 11:51:30 AM  
This is the inbred, snaggle poop toothed idiot, jesus version of "religious freedom". The one where inbred idjits can deny lifesaving treatment to someone because jesus.

"oh, that guy looks effeminate, jesus says let him die, so I'mma not do cpr, k?"

I wish Sherman had spent some time burning down Kentucky too.
 
2013-03-31 11:52:43 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-31 11:53:11 AM  

Gosling: Well, THIS isn't going to end like that Nebraska law that ended in people from halfway across the country dumping their teenagers and driving off.


That was perhaps the most sad and yet strangely entertaining thing to hear on the news in the weeks that past when that law became active. It stunned me how a person can take their (I think the max age was 16?) teenager to NB, and just abandon them Joe Dirt style.

As for this "law", which pretty much allows the Taliban to exist with impunity...it embodies one of the many reasons people are leaving the GOP.
 
2013-03-31 11:54:46 AM  
First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?
 
2013-03-31 11:55:33 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


Trust me, this is geared/planned towards pharmacists, teachers, crap like that.
 
2013-03-31 11:56:39 AM  
This couldn't possibly backfire.
 
2013-03-31 11:58:49 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: Let me guess; this is mainly geared towards outlawing abortion and birth control.


Actually, it's pretty much geared towards doing away with the few Fairness ordinances in the state--you know, the laws that say that you can't be fired because your boss thinks you might have The Gay.  (The local dominionists have been pretty much unsuccessful in overturning them locally, so they've worked with the state legislature--which is far more dominionist-friendly and Southern Baptist-controlled--to basically give dominionists a free ticket to disregard those laws.)

Of course, as others have pointed out, they've also effectively legalised a lot of things they probably did not intend--things like polygamy, moonshine (in dry counties), marijuana (not just the Rastas, quite a number of other groups do use marijuana as a sacrament including at least one Christian church), snake-handling churches (illegal since 1946 but only sporadically enforced as it is), peyote (there aren't any federally recognised tribes in the US but this opens up for ANYONE to use peyote sacramentally), psilocybes (magic mushrooms are used by shamanic practitioners in European paleopagan and "reconstructionist" neopagan faiths), setting up one's own brothel and drug den as the First Temple of Slaanesh...

Of course, I also expect this will go away soon enough the very first time that someone is fired for being a member of the Wrong Religion and decides to file suit in federal court and/or the first time that a group using cannabis or peyote as a sacrament gets busted by the state cops.  (Unfortunately, even our Democrats tend to be Republicans in spirit here, and the General Assembly tends to be prone to this sort of derp and the following courthouse smackdown.  About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in the courts...)
 
2013-03-31 12:00:12 PM  

abb3w: This sounds like a jobs creation program for lawyers.


Because they are!

I personally enjoy watching fiscal conservatives AKA  Right wing Christian pay tax payer attorney fees to evil 'secular-progressive' lawyers. Mo money mo problems.

/to your Mother

//I apologize for my outburst

///only kinda
 
2013-03-31 12:00:41 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in the courts...


What.  How the hell did they think that would be legal / survive legal challenge.  Or were they just idiots.
 
2013-03-31 12:01:09 PM  
These people are seriously retarded. It has to be some kind of mental disorder, there is no other explanation.
 
2013-03-31 12:01:17 PM  

The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?


You may go to hell for saying that on the holy day when the easter bunny hands out eggs to all girls and boys who believe in jeebus.
 
2013-03-31 12:06:10 PM  
But Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Uh, no.  Nope.  Students can pray all they want to.  State employees just can't participate.

pyrotek85:  Unless they've actually forbidden students from praying, I don't see a problem.


Yes, this.

/yeah, I know some teachers/administrators don't get this distinction
//and there is, in fact, tons of teacher/coach-led prayer in public schools
///doesn't particularly bother me either way - I mean we still have kids fascistly (word?) pledge allegiance to the symbol of the state
 
2013-03-31 12:07:01 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Great Porn Dragon: About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in the courts...

What.  How the hell did they think that would be legal / survive legal challenge.  Or were they just idiots.


They're Southern Baptist idiots, dear...pretty much the very same folks who functionally kept three-fourths of the state in Prohibition until VERY recently (and still half the counties are dry; the main reason that some counties are going moist and/or wet is that major chain "casual dining" restaurants are refusing to set up shop along I-64 and I-75 unless they can sell a beer or a cocktail with meals and these restaurants are functionally the only tax base in those areas aside from the coal mines and Wal-Mart).

It is literally impossible to underestimate the sheer, unadulterated level of religionationalist blatantly-ignorant derp that comes from the parts of this state outside Louisville, Lexington, Covington, or possibly Owensboro and Paducah; hell, we're one of the states that still had a major "Christian Patriot" militia movement after Clinton left office (and before Obama left in), are one of the few states where Hillary Clinton won the Democratic primary because people refused to vote for a Blah Man, and (particularly in Appalachia) "sundown towns" existed well into the 80's and Klan membership was almost required to get into Respectable Town Society.  (Not joking on that, either.  Have known too many folks who either lived there for a time and left, or grew up there and became refugees in Louisville.)
 
2013-03-31 12:08:00 PM  
Murdering people who cannot merge onto the highway is now my official religion.

My official symbol. the 12 gauge Mossberg 590 pump action shotgun.


MURICA! FARK YEAH!
 
2013-03-31 12:08:24 PM  

cman: I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


I dislike it when people know that they have bigoted views regarding certain situations, and then take up a job where they know they will then be forced to choose between their religion and actually doing their job.

/don't believe in birth control? Don't take a job as a pharmacist.
//don't believe certain people should get married? Don't take a job as a Justice of the Peace.
 
2013-03-31 12:09:06 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: Satanic_Hamster:  About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in ...


There is no irony there. The Primitive Baptists churches I grew up around are, and always have been, adamant about the seperation of church and state.
 
2013-03-31 12:09:26 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Monkeyhouse Zendo: The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.

Trust me, this is geared/planned towards pharmacists, teachers, crap like that.


Doubtless. My initial thought was that it was a same-sex marriage thing since that's the hot button topic of the day but I see your point regarding providing a legal shield for douchebag pharmacists and proselytizing teachers.

It's shiat like this that took me from not caring about other people's religion to "militant atheist". I don't care what flavor of imaginary friend people vow their eternal submission to provided they don't try to force other people to submit to their primitive world view. I can live with the vast amount of time, energy, and resources wasted in the worship of mythological beings; I don't like it but I can live with it. Unfortunately, not having everyone else bow down to their idol and it's dictums is apparently unacceptable.
 
2013-03-31 12:09:34 PM  

balloot: Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.


I think that's where Subby was heading with the al Qaeda herpaderp.
 
2013-03-31 12:10:13 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs?


it's been covered but one of the main talking points is pharmacists having to dispense the morning after pill. if your job requires you to preform a legal activity you can't just say "because jesus" and not do it.
 
2013-03-31 12:11:14 PM  

The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?


One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".
 
2013-03-31 12:11:18 PM  

AliceBToklasLives: ///doesn't particularly bother me either way - I mean we still have kids fascistly (word?) pledge allegiance to the symbol of the state


I pledge allegiance, to the bag,
Of the united states of america,
And to the shopping mall  where it was filled.
One nation, underwallmart
Divisible, by paper grocery bags.
 
2013-03-31 12:13:22 PM  
My religion makes sacrifices to our Gods.

All we need are Virgins.

Unfortunately the test to check for Virginity removes the virginity, so we shall now use the people of Kentucky as virgins for sacrifice.

/Separation of church and State... Hows that work?... One law for all!
 
2013-03-31 12:14:06 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: balloot: Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.

I think that's where Subby was heading with the al Qaeda herpaderp.


Not really herpaderp. I could easily see a devout Muslim or fundamentalist Christian attempting to use this law as a defense for slapping a woman in a short skirt for her lack of modesty.
 
2013-03-31 12:14:52 PM  

Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".


www.fishink.us


/oblig
 
2013-03-31 12:15:38 PM  
The funny thing is, I've already heard of a minister or two, and more than a few gay couples, in Louisville who are going to cite this very law in the course of applying for marriage licenses and marrying.

The state legislature set its own bar for overcoming this law, in the law itself, as strict scrutiny. The state now must without exception show compelling interest  and least-restrictive means in disallowing gay marriage, if the minister and couple involved have a sincerely-held religious belief they should be allowed to be married. Of course, knowing the yahoos who got this law passed, the state will try to argue it's not a sincerely-held religious belief which is a whole different ballgame in the courts as it turns to a free exercise issue and therefore strict scrutiny applies by default.
 
2013-03-31 12:16:11 PM  
Expect the courts to be packed as now every prisoner in Kentucky will be filing to have their sentence overturned on religious grounds.
 
2013-03-31 12:17:40 PM  

Curious: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs?

it's been covered but one of the main talking points is pharmacists having to dispense the morning after pill. if your job requires you to preform a legal activity you can't just say "because jesus" and not do it.


They should be able to do that. I don't think the law should for e someone to give out something. On the other and the law shouldn't protect him from getting fired if his employer doesn't like it
 
2013-03-31 12:18:16 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: School prayer, forces a religious view on people.


Teacher-led school prayer, anyway. There will always be school prayer as long as there are students who do not study for their math tests.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:16 PM  

Curious: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs?

it's been covered but one of the main talking points is pharmacists having to dispense the morning after pill. if your job requires you to preform a legal activity you can't just say "because jesus" and not do it.


And this is where the religious confuse being forced to violate your beliefs and not being allowed to impose them on others. The government telling the pharmacist that they must take the morning after pill is the government running roughshod over their beliefs. The government telling a pharmacist that they can't withhold over the counter or prescription medications based on their personal superstitions isn't.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:19 PM  

that bosnian sniper: The funny thing is, I've already heard of a minister or two, and more than a few gay couples, in Louisville who are going to cite this very law in the course of applying for marriage licenses and marrying.


Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.

Your move, Kentucky.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:19 PM  
I don't see this law surviving a legal challenge. As far as I'm aware, and IANAL, it's been caselaw that you can practice your religion, as long as said practice does not otherwise commit a crime.

I could found a Aztec/Mayan/Mesoamerican bloodcult, but the sacrifices can't be real people. Or real animals, I think. This law would allow me to have a human sacrifice on the altar.

/Gotta prevent them volcanos from erupting.
 
2013-03-31 12:19:28 PM  

blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig


Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.
 
2013-03-31 12:21:35 PM  
They have taken their faith full potatoe!

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-03-31 12:22:43 PM  

Lawnchair: Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.


Yep. Most of the LGBT people I know have been quietly pointing and giggling since this law hit the Kentucky  General Assembly floor waiting for this to detonate in the state's face. Sure, they're disappointed and angry at the  intent of the law, but on the other hand...
 
2013-03-31 12:24:35 PM  

fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.


PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:20 PM  
Oh hey yeah, my religion allows me to live in the governors mansion, while smoking blunts with naked hookers running around the front yard. I'm also a sovereign citizen who's religion prevents me from going to jail or paying taxes.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:20 PM  
They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

Um... supremacy clause?
 
2013-03-31 12:25:36 PM  

Lawnchair: Yep, that. There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.


Unitarians are weird.

I think one once had sex with me to get them to join their church. (I guess I give off that "lost soul" aroma)

Would have been less awkward if her boyfriend hadn't been in the other room, but he didn't seem to mind... so.... yay Unitarians?
 
2013-03-31 12:25:44 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: cman: I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs? As far as I can tell, no church is being forced to perform same-sex marriages or interracial marriages for that matter.

The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.
 
2013-03-31 12:25:50 PM  
My religion requires the still beating heart of a republican for a weekly sacrifice.
 
2013-03-31 12:26:22 PM  

fluffy2097: blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig

Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.


Asimov also made his living writing a book into every section of the Dewey Decimal system.

Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.

The man (and his writing) had flaws, but I don't think you can use stories he wrote (and you misunderstood) to attack a very salient point he made 30 years ago that is still applicable today.
 
2013-03-31 12:26:35 PM  
This is great news for snake handlers!
 
2013-03-31 12:28:25 PM  
FINALLY!  I have a place where I can http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/13849 worship in peace...
 
2013-03-31 12:28:52 PM  

Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.


Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.
 
2013-03-31 12:29:27 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.


justice, dammit, justice
 
2013-03-31 12:30:02 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.


Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.
 
2013-03-31 12:30:10 PM  
FTFA Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Ok - so lets bring back teacher led prayer back into schools.  Just as soon as we get 100% agreement on which version of the Bible to use.

/lets see how the Catholics and evangelicals resolve this
 
2013-03-31 12:30:49 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in the courts...


Not very ironic. Back in the colonial and post-colonial days, it was the Baptists who were leading the charge in church/state separation; that's probably a living fossil example. It's the SBC that's changed on that.

that bosnian sniper: The state now must without exception show compelling interest and least-restrictive means in disallowing gay marriage, if the minister and couple involved have a sincerely-held religious belief they should be allowed to be married.


Unfortunately, this is a mere law, while Kentucky's ban on gay marriage is in its Constitution. So... no, I don't think they do. A Federal Judge might take notice in a case and make the state AG's sweat a bit; but I think the reasoning would have to be a stretch.
 
2013-03-31 12:33:35 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.

Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.


Internet elitist-like typing detected. 

Don't even have an account, just pointing out a fact that a LOT of people miss.
 
2013-03-31 12:34:35 PM  

Summercat: Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.


The subtext is that what they said did not matter.

If their inability to convince the robot was a problem, then horrible things would have happened when the storm hit.

But the robot had faith which, being trapped on a space station his entire existence, is all he really needs. He just needs to make sure the power goes where it is supposed to. Who's will it is that it be done is unimportant.

That screams an agnostic viewpoint to me.
 
2013-03-31 12:35:03 PM  

fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.


I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.
 
2013-03-31 12:35:52 PM  

Empty Matchbook: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Empty Matchbook: The problem with being privileged is that when society becomes more equal, it can feel like persecution because it feels like something (IE: a greater, unearned status) is being taken away.

Tumblr social just warrior like typing detected.

Internet elitist-like typing detected. 

Don't even have an account, just pointing out a fact that a LOT of people miss.


I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.
 
2013-03-31 12:36:26 PM  

Summercat: the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.


Sounds like slavery to me. *shrug*  It's just with titanium people instead of brown people.
 
2013-03-31 12:37:13 PM  
FTA: They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

i.imgur.com

CONSTITUTIONAL LAW DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. GOODNIGHT.
 
2013-03-31 12:37:51 PM  

Summercat: I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.


I think you are not reading hard enough.

Go look at the original post of that image and what they were talking about.
 
2013-03-31 12:39:09 PM  

fluffy2097: Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.


I don't see that quote or it's usage in this thread as painting Asimov as a "fundamentalist atheist" (whatever the fark that is supposed to be). I think you may be projecting a little.

I reject the belief that any supernatural dimension exists and that all observable phenomena are the result of the physical properties of our universe. Is that sufficient to make me a "Fundamentalist Atheist"?
 
2013-03-31 12:42:06 PM  

Summercat: fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.

I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.


You know, I was so pissed off when the Foundation series revealed it was still a God Damned Robot Novel.
 
2013-03-31 12:42:38 PM  
Awesome! So now I can commit genocide with impunity because God told me too. I'm thinking I am going to start with the Methodists. Those guys have always rubbed me the wrong way.
 
2013-03-31 12:43:06 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I reject the belief that any supernatural dimension exists and affirm that all observable phenomena are the result of the physical properties of our universe. Is that sufficient to make me a "Fundamentalist Atheist"?


God damn it so much...
 
2013-03-31 12:45:21 PM  
Asimov rocks, but the go-to place for that topic is  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life
 
2013-03-31 12:46:14 PM  

AliceBToklasLives: Asimov rocks, but the go-to place for that topic is  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life


Great book.
Depressing book.
 
2013-03-31 12:47:59 PM  
While I don't think anyone should be surprised that this cunning plan was not thought all the way through, it's amusing to note that the ultimate result of this law is to grant government a massive, broad new power: the power to determine what is and is not a "sincerely held religious belief".
 
2013-03-31 12:48:16 PM  

abb3w: Unfortunately, this is a mere law, while Kentucky's ban on gay marriage is in its Constitution. So... no, I don't think they do. A Federal Judge might take notice in a case and make the state AG's sweat a bit; but I think the reasoning would have to be a stretch.


That strongly depends upon how the Supreme Court rules in the California Prop 8 case. A broad ruling in favor of Perry (which I think has a noteworthy chance) would certainly undermine the state constitutional amendment, leaving this particular law the highest apparent pedigree in which case my argument would be totally accurate.

That said, the purpose of such a challenge wouldn't be to overturn the Kentucky state constitutional amendment; it would be to overturn the law itself or remand it to the state general assembly for amendment, because of that conflict between the law and the state constitution.
 
2013-03-31 12:48:55 PM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


The issue is rather simple: The first amendment is much more nuanced than just that anyone has the right to practice their own religion without interference; it's that people derive the freedom to express their religious beliefs through not having anyone, most notably the government, impose religious beliefs on them in anyway.

This law is in complete opposition to that because it allows people to impose their religious beliefs on others.

And the bill does exactly what the Founding Fathers never wanted to see happen: let the government be the referee of religions. The bill says, "government shall prove by clear and convincing evidence prove a compelling governmental interest in establishing a burden on the freedom of religion; specify what constitutes a burden." So imagine this senario: a landlord refused to rent to a gay couple because the idea of a gay couple goes against the landlord's religious beliefs. The government say, "well, there are enough landlords out there that will rent to gay couples that this isn't a burden, the landlord has the right refuse." And now we have a new error of Jim Crow.
 
2013-03-31 12:49:57 PM  

balloot: Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.


guess that mosque in murfreesboro is a go!
 
2013-03-31 12:52:12 PM  
The United States Supreme Court already answered this question many, many years ago.  Too bad the law will fail on the first judicial review.
 
2013-03-31 12:52:14 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts.

Um... supremacy clause?


It's cool. We can totally go back to enslaving those pesky other colored people, treating womenfolk like chattel, and praising the ONLY recognized religion of the great country!

/Cuz... the Bible, right?
//These lawmakers should be sterilized for the greater good
 
2013-03-31 12:55:46 PM  
why didn't Iran think of this???

hell, now Iran can use this model and codify their bullsh*t of mixing religion and government.
 
2013-03-31 12:56:58 PM  
Does that mean Fark is now a religion? Because I need my Catruday's off to drink good beer and hate on our  mortal enemies Duke.


Also, Drew is Pope

www.themoralofthestoryis.com
 
2013-03-31 12:58:59 PM  
A Roman soldier stooped Rabbi Akiba and ordered him to explain the whole of the Law while standing on one foot. Rabbi Akiba answered (while standing on one foot) "Do not do to someone else what you would not care to have done to you. All the rest is commentary." Virtually every major ethical religion has a variant on this rule, except Christianity which says "Hey let's turn that upside down so it doesn't make sense! Then people will feel free to ignore it!"

Thanks again, Jesus, ya goddam hippie.
 
2013-03-31 01:00:11 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Summercat: fluffy2097: Monkeyhouse Zendo: fluffy2097: I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

PhD in biochemistry and published a number of science books aimed at the layman... Sure, there are other sources for sense and logic but don't make the mistake of thinking that the sum total of Asimov's work was his science fiction.

Very true, but I'm sick and tired of Fundamentalist Atheist's using his good name and quotes as sophistry.

Asimov would LOVE to have a good religious debate about the nature of God (presence or belief in) and its effect on humanity as far as I can tell from his writings. I think he knew very well what the science said, and what the science CAN'T say. I think he'd roll over in his grave to be painted as a fundamentalist atheist.

I'm not seeing anything like that being put in Asimov's mouth. Methinks you're reading a bit too hard into it.

You know, I was so pissed off when the Foundation series revealed it was still a God Damned Robot Novel.


The Foundation universe is interesting in how all those books and shorts are tied together into a single setting. As a grand setting (and ignoring the stupidity of 'Gaia', ugh), it is fairly interesting. Also complete bollocks. "Physchohistory" is just... So much fail. It's ultimately something that only works... if you only have one person acting upon it.  Further, it doesn't run into issues of cult of personality. It could predict the French Revolution - maybe. Up a point. There's simply too much chaos there.

You can predict general trends, but the idea you can have a thousand year roadmap made ahead of time is idiotic (and much of the reason why I dislike much in the way of the expanded explanation novels, aside from tieing the setting together).

But taking as each group - the Empire novels are all nicely done, as are all the Robot novels. The Foundation series, less so, I thought he was trying to overplay the fall of the Roman Empire a bit too much. He did hit upon a good point in Robots and Empire, though - assuming Spacers were a dead end, humanity needed to grow and diversify. That wouldn't happen with Earth intact to serve as a nucleus for a singular culture. In order to break the cycle of history, you'd have to break Earth away and allow the planets to evolve as themselves, not as colonies of a nascent Imperial Earth.

/spent too long on this. Oy.
 
2013-03-31 01:02:27 PM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


You gotta do what you gotta do.   A society is about cooperation and given our cultural/ethnic/racial diversity of the USA we MUST render service to others.  This is no longer a dominantly white nation where people were once discriminated based on their flavor of christianity.  This is no longer a nation of separate but equal.

  The whole we don't serve your kind here philosophy is not an option.

Additionally, allowing any one group to thumb it's nose at the law because of it's "deeply held beliefs" is an open invitation to anarchy and abuse.
 
2013-03-31 01:02:40 PM  
Packing my bags and moving to Kentucky... My faith has so much to do.
 
2013-03-31 01:03:39 PM  

clambam: A Roman soldier stooped Rabbi Akiba and ordered him to explain the whole of the Law while standing on one foot. Rabbi Akiba answered (while standing on one foot) "Do not do to someone else what you would not care to have done to you. All the rest is commentary." Virtually every major ethical religion has a variant on this rule, except Christianity which says "Hey let's turn that upside down so it doesn't make sense! Then people will feel free to ignore it!"

Thanks again, Jesus, ya goddam hippie.


I'm all for bashing idiotic Christians who misunderstand their own religion, but....

Bwha? The closest you can come to that is "Do unto others that you would have done onto you". Is that what you're talking about?
 
2013-03-31 01:04:12 PM  
Acid Baths for all the Sluts!
 
2013-03-31 01:06:06 PM  

fluffy2097: Fundamentalist Atheist's


Huh?

What the fark is a "fundamentalist atheist"?

Atheist : Found any evidence for god yet?
Fundamentalist Atheist: Nope. Have you?
Atheist:  Not yet.
Fundamentalist Atheist: Damn... people have been looking for 4000+ years and we still haven't found any evidence for god.  Everything spooky that convinces theists turns out to have a natural explanation that we can actually predict and engineer, like lightning. I'm guessing there is none.
Atheist:  Well, some day, somebody might find something
Fundamentalist Atheist:  Good luck with that. I'm not holding my breath....


Or are you thinking of the people that don't want to have the state force their kids to recite prayers led by teachers during school. OH THE HORROR!
 
2013-03-31 01:06:12 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Monkeyhouse Zendo: The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


When they scream 'Help we are being oppressed!' they are actually saying 'Help the playing field is being made level!'

They act like the previously only child who now has to deal with a younger sibling and now can't get attention or what they want all the time.
 
2013-03-31 01:07:18 PM  

formerfloozy: I'm thinking I am going to start with the Methodists. Those guys have always rubbed me the wrong way.


Hedly?
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-31 01:16:51 PM  

AliceBToklasLives: But Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Uh, no.  Nope.  Students can pray all they want to.  State employees just can't participate.

pyrotek85:  Unless they've actually forbidden students from praying, I don't see a problem.

Yes, this.

/yeah, I know some teachers/administrators don't get this distinction
//and there is, in fact, tons of teacher/coach-led prayer in public schools
///doesn't particularly bother me either way - I mean we still have kids fascistly (word?) pledge allegiance to the symbol of the state


It's not real prayer if you can't force everybody else to join you.


/or at least stare at their shoes
 
2013-03-31 01:18:29 PM  
Finally, a place where I can worship Quetzalcoatl in peace! My diet's going to have a lot more protein in it real soon!
 
2013-03-31 01:26:53 PM  
The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so

I'd be converting to Rasrtafarianism, myself.
 
2013-03-31 01:30:16 PM  
Here is what President Bartlett has to say on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVL-gA1KpxQ
 
2013-03-31 01:30:25 PM  

cbathrob: Finally, a place where I can worship Quetzalcoatl in peace! My diet's going to have a lot more protein in it real soon!


My religion requires me to consume 1 char-grilled aborted fetus per day.

For maximum trolling.
 
2013-03-31 01:30:42 PM  

cbathrob: Finally, a place where I can worship Quetzalcoatl in peace! My diet's going to have a lot more protein in it real soon!


Not in Kentucky.
Kentuckians are too fatty.
 
2013-03-31 01:33:18 PM  

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: cman: Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?

Not with this stupid law.

"This is a piece of legislation looking for a reason," Owens said.

Like laws against gay marriage, or voter ID laws, or anti-Sharia laws.

This is a desperate move by frightened and ignorant people who have been convinced by charlatans that they are under attack.

These are the ignorant people who are claiming they are under attack and are 'protecting' their values. Apparently a core Christian value is oppressing others.


I believe the correct term is, Practicing God.
Why else would there be so many "moral punishments" for opposing core Christian values? If God can admonish bad behaviors with force, as depicted, in those bible tales. Why can't God's devout followers have the same ability as a god given moral enforcement right?
 
2013-03-31 01:34:16 PM  
I'm a SubGenuis. My religion requires me to do whatever the fark I want, whenever the fark I want to do it. I think I could have some fun in Kentucky.


/maybe I should move there...
//nah, then I'd have to live in Kentucky.
 
2013-03-31 01:38:17 PM  
Well my new religion allows gay marriage, believes in evolution, and supports abortion on demand.  Better not opress me motherfarkers.
 
2013-03-31 01:39:12 PM  
The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

A "religious freedom" bill.  Why do I have this tingly feeling that this is just another right-wing attempt to keep the government from preventing them from forcing their religion on other people...

Republican Rep. Stan Lee said, "It wasn't so long ago we had prayer in the schools, but they made us take it out."

Well, there you go.
 
2013-03-31 01:44:13 PM  
FTFA:The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Yikes, I don't actually have a problem with this! The government shouldn't be making ANY law that restricts a person's liberty unless it had some "compelling governmental interest" in doing so. If they just removed the word "religious" from the bill I'd be supporting this 100% with a smile on my face.
 
2013-03-31 01:49:53 PM  

sprgrss: The United States Supreme Court already answered this question many, many years ago.  Too bad the law will fail on the first judicial review.


I hope it does, and for irony sake I hope its a religious institution bringing it to court instead of a real victim.

/Kentuckian
//Louisvillian, signed the petition to secede from the state.
 
2013-03-31 01:50:41 PM  
The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Like, maybe, a law passed by the legislature and signed by the Governor?
 
2013-03-31 01:54:08 PM  
How many times have you heard these yahoos say "Atheism is a religion"   - oops.
 
2013-03-31 01:55:28 PM  
Gov. Steve Beshear added additional concerns in his veto message Friday, saying the bill's unintentional consequences also could harm economic development efforts and enforcement of drug laws.

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
 
2013-03-31 01:56:18 PM  

Summercat: clambam: A Roman soldier stooped Rabbi Akiba and ordered him to explain the whole of the Law while standing on one foot. Rabbi Akiba answered (while standing on one foot) "Do not do to someone else what you would not care to have done to you. All the rest is commentary." Virtually every major ethical religion has a variant on this rule, except Christianity which says "Hey let's turn that upside down so it doesn't make sense! Then people will feel free to ignore it!"

Thanks again, Jesus, ya goddam hippie.

I'm all for bashing idiotic Christians who misunderstand their own religion, but....

Bwha? The closest you can come to that is "Do unto others that you would have done onto you". Is that what you're talking about?


You're kinda dumb, aren't you?
 
2013-03-31 01:56:49 PM  
I live 10 minutes away from Kentucky. And I just converted to Rastafarianism.
 
2013-03-31 02:00:35 PM  

fluffy2097: blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig

Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.


The man has written authoritatively on every subject in the dewy decimal system.  His science books, although now outdated  are still the single best introduction to an understanding of whatever subject is is I have ever read.  I  find his fiction boring, but when it comes to teaching about science, he is second only to Carl Sagan in my book.  And Sagan focused on basic astronomy, Asimov has a book about EVERYTHING.  Usually more than one.
 
2013-03-31 02:02:03 PM  
Do unto others. Many, many others. (Fornicus 2:69)

img.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-31 02:06:14 PM  

HeartBurnKid: I'm a SubGenuis. My religion requires me to do whatever the fark I want, whenever the fark I want to do it. I think I could have some fun in Kentucky.


/maybe I should move there...
//nah, then I'd have to live in Kentucky.


Hey now! Louisville is great. Lexington and Coving are ok too but especially Louisville is one part of the country that is quite heavily and reliably blue. One of the big churches here was on Fark a while back because they stopped doing any legal marriage because they could only do them for straight people.
 
2013-03-31 02:07:35 PM  
Next up, a bill banning Sharia law.
 
2013-03-31 02:08:24 PM  

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: cman: Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?

Not with this stupid law.

"This is a piece of legislation looking for a reason," Owens said.

Like laws against gay marriage, or voter ID laws, or anti-Sharia laws.

This is a desperate move by frightened and ignorant people who have been convinced by charlatans that they are under attack.

These are the ignorant people who are claiming they are under attack and are 'protecting' their values. Apparently a core Christian value is oppressing others.


It actually kinda is. Intolerance is one of the basic tenets of Christianity.
 
2013-03-31 02:13:47 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Next up, a bill banning Sharia law.


I think it should be clear by now that the only problem fundies have with Sharia law is that they don't like the competition.
 
2013-03-31 02:14:46 PM  
One thing that is really funny about Kentucky is Mitch McConnell. He's the head Republican in the senate but when it comes time for him to head back home to Kentucky, he actually lives in one of the most liberal neighborhoods in the entire state.
 
2013-03-31 02:18:04 PM  

wellreadneck: Vicco, a small town in rural Appalachia,  has voted to ban discriminiation against anyone based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Let that sink in.


Hell, where is that place? I like camping in areas like this.
 
2013-03-31 02:19:01 PM  
i2.kym-cdn.com

This is lulzy as hell and I'm sure this will in no way end with the Republicans who passed it wailing and gnashing their teeth in, oh, let's give it 180 days.
 
2013-03-31 02:23:58 PM  

qorkfiend: While I don't think anyone should be surprised that this cunning plan was not thought all the way through, it's amusing to note that the ultimate result of this law is to grant government a massive, broad new power: the power to determine what is and is not a "sincerely held religious belief".


Oh, it was thought through.

The Governor vetoed it, saying that the law would have many unintended side-effects and unforeseen consequences.  There has been some commentary in the media here about just how far this could be abused.  Basically any state law can be ignored on religious grounds now, if you can get a court to agree it was a sincere religious reason to avoid it.

The intent was at least in part to gut the "fairness ordinances" passed by some communities providing for protection of LBGT persons by letting people discriminate against them if they could prove it was religiously motivated discrimination, ditto with letting schoolkids ignore anti-bullying rules by letting them taunt and bully their fellow students if they think they are LBGT.

The legislature passed it with a veto override.

/Kentuckian
/Facepalming at my own state.
 
2013-03-31 02:24:34 PM  
I'm sure they meant to include that the only recognized religion freedom concerns Christianity. Doesn't apply to any others
 
2013-03-31 02:27:59 PM  

thornhill: And now we have a new error of Jim Crow


Era...
 
2013-03-31 02:28:02 PM  
Wait-wait-wait, Hold It!  Tweet - Time Out.  Did Submitter not suggest that Al Queda was ready to take on the 101st Airborne, in a home game?

/nothing about it yet on Fox, CNN or ESPN

//citation needed
 
2013-03-31 02:28:24 PM  
My religion just determined that orgies with 16 year old girls is an appropriate way to worship.

I guess I'm moving to Kentucky, as it's now legal!
 
2013-03-31 02:29:19 PM  

Bermuda59: I'm sure they meant to include that the only recognized religion freedom concerns Christianity. Doesn't apply to any others


Yes but the lulz begins when they try and enforce it.
 
2013-03-31 02:33:36 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: thornhill: And now we have a new error of Jim Crow

Era...


I dunno. Both seem apt.
 
2013-03-31 02:34:55 PM  

Lawnchair: that bosnian sniper: The funny thing is, I've already heard of a minister or two, and more than a few gay couples, in Louisville who are going to cite this very law in the course of applying for marriage licenses and marrying.

Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.

Your move, Kentucky.


Better than the marijuana option, since it won't get you arrested.  Yet I am sure they will still wriggle out of it.  I just wonder how.

Ah, I know.  "Disobeying the law is not the same as forcing the law to recognize you."  Followed by some kid getting suspended for not attending a mandatory school prayer because they have the self-awareness and memory of a goldfish.
 
2013-03-31 02:38:17 PM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: My religion just determined that orgies with 16 year old girls is an appropriate way to worship.

I guess I'm moving to Kentucky, as it's now legal!


That's already legal in Kentucky, as long as it's hetero.

Homosexual...well the law was invalidated, probably, but they might find some similar means of enforcing it.
 
2013-03-31 02:39:05 PM  

Unknown_Poltroon: he is second only to Carl Sagan in my book.


pseudo-intellectual fundamentalist atheist detected.
 
2013-03-31 02:45:49 PM  

ghare: wellreadneck: Vicco, a small town in rural Appalachia,  has voted to ban discriminiation against anyone based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Let that sink in.

Hell, where is that place? I like camping in areas like this.


Outside of Hazard. Best you go to nearby Carr Creek State Park. I think Vicco is a former coal camp, probably not the type of rustic you have in mind.
 
2013-03-31 02:45:56 PM  

neongoats: This is the inbred, snaggle poop toothed idiot, jesus version of "religious freedom". The one where inbred idjits can deny lifesaving treatment to someone because jesus.

"oh, that guy looks effeminate, jesus says let him die, so I'mma not do cpr, k?"

I wish Sherman had spent some time burning down Kentucky too.


Kentucky was where all the Southern Unionists went to enlist in the Union Army.  There were almost 100,000 from Tennessee alone.
 
2013-03-31 02:48:42 PM  

TheBigJerk: Better than the marijuana option, since it won't get you arrested.  Yet I am sure they will still wriggle out of it.  I just wonder how.

Ah, I know.  "Disobeying the law is not the same as forcing the law to recognize you."  Followed by some kid getting suspended for not attending a mandatory school prayer because they have the self-awareness and memory of a goldfish.


And then the school administrators get slammed repeatedly by frustrated judges. The social conservatives will then become livid that people out there are getting away with liking things that they don't like and using their own law to do it. After that there will be blood.

The legislature voted for anarchy, so yes, anarchy is what they'll get. Sad but true. The people I feel bad for are the children and folks who voted against these clowns. With any "luck" it'll get bad enough that even ardent GOP voters will vote Democrat to get this overturned.
 
2013-03-31 02:52:08 PM  

fluffy2097: pseudo-intellectual fundamentalist atheist detected.



pseudo intellectual?  you won't even answer a question regarding "fundamentalist atheist".

// pot, meet kettle
 
2013-03-31 02:56:40 PM  
Holy shiat.

"Proponents, who include the Family Foundation and the Catholic Conference of Kentucky, say those fears are unfounded. They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts."

So you are literally trying to turn back time to spite the recent rulings of the highest courts in the land. I don't think that's how our branches of government are supposed to work. On the bright side I moved out of KY last fall and thank goodness for that.
 
2013-03-31 02:58:21 PM  

neongoats: This is the inbred, snaggle poop toothed idiot, jesus version of "religious freedom". The one where inbred idjits can deny lifesaving treatment to someone because jesus.

"oh, that guy looks effeminate, jesus says let him die, so I'mma not do cpr, k?"

I wish Sherman had spent some time burning down Kentucky too.


Kentucky was a Union state in the Civil War.  It never seceded.
 
2013-03-31 03:00:01 PM  
Can someone call an ambulance. I face palmed so hard that parts of my brain are leaking through my forehead.     (Featured Comment)
 
2013-03-31 03:02:19 PM  

Arthur Jumbles: FTFA:The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Yikes, I don't actually have a problem with this! The government shouldn't be making ANY law that restricts a person's liberty unless it had some "compelling governmental interest" in doing so. If they just removed the word "religious" from the bill I'd be supporting this 100% with a smile on my face.




This.

/On Its face it sounds like the kind of law that shouldn't be needed tho.
/Implying that, without it, the government could infringe on people's rights with no valid reason?
 
2013-03-31 03:08:05 PM  

fluffy2097: fundamentalist atheist


You're really trying to make 'fetch' happen.
 
2013-03-31 03:12:45 PM  

Summercat: The Foundation universe is interesting in how all those books and shorts are tied together into a single setting.


It's not interesting. It's the principle diagnosis of Asimov's Disease, which is the mistaken neurosis cropping up later in life that everything you've ever written has to be shoehorned into an overarching "future history" a la Heinlein. It's one of the reasons not to read anything Asmiov wrote after 1977.
 
2013-03-31 03:16:34 PM  

mpirooz: Holy shiat.

"Proponents, who include the Family Foundation and the Catholic Conference of Kentucky, say those fears are unfounded. They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts."

So you are literally trying to turn back time to spite the recent rulings of the highest courts in the land. I don't think that's how our branches of government are supposed to work. On the bright side I moved out of KY last fall and thank goodness for that.


Plus, I don't think they actually know how law's work.  If the Supreme Court rules that a particular law isn't legal, you can't just pass a law saying "now it is."
 
2013-03-31 03:18:04 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: thornhill: And now we have a new error of Jim Crow

Era...


iPhone autocorrect. Ugh. At least it didn't come out saying something about sex.
 
2013-03-31 03:18:31 PM  
I am now a very devout Rastafarian who also observes the traditions of cultures that uses mushrooms and peyote to contact the gods.
 
2013-03-31 03:19:10 PM  

fluffy2097: fundamentalist atheist


[ohwaityoureserious]
 
2013-03-31 03:20:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: mpirooz: Holy shiat.

"Proponents, who include the Family Foundation and the Catholic Conference of Kentucky, say those fears are unfounded. They argue that the bill restores a legal standard in place before recent rulings by the U.S. and Kentucky supreme courts."

So you are literally trying to turn back time to spite the recent rulings of the highest courts in the land. I don't think that's how our branches of government are supposed to work. On the bright side I moved out of KY last fall and thank goodness for that.

Plus, I don't think they actually know how law's work.  If the Supreme Court rules that a particular law isn't legal, you can't just pass a law saying "now it is."


Apparently they can.
 
2013-03-31 03:22:43 PM  
In my religion, I have the right to have sex with any man who sexually arouses me.  Also, does this apply to the laws of physics?
 
2013-03-31 03:24:02 PM  

MrHappyRotter: In my religion, I have the right to have sex with any man who sexually arouses me.  Also, does this apply to the laws of physics?


I like your religion, where can I join?
 
2013-03-31 03:25:37 PM  

TheBigJerk: Witty


As I'm over 21, the law I saw before I posted said it's a crime. FWIW. Maybe they're too poor in Kentucky to be able to afford to update their laws.
 
2013-03-31 03:27:30 PM  
In other news, clitoridectomy clinics being opened in 12 Kentuck locations. Special rates for male Sharia law adherents with screaming/sobbing 12 year old girls.
 
2013-03-31 03:29:16 PM  
It is so sad to see a legislature that is so short sighted. I can't believe that no one really thought the whole idea through.  It's like living to Bizarro World.  I feel sorry for the people of Kentucky.

/then again, I live in Wisconsin
//yeah, I feel sorry for me too.
 
2013-03-31 03:29:41 PM  
And all it will take is one lawyer to say:

" It's true that Leviticus 18:22 states "No man is to have sexual relations with another man; it is an abomination unto the Lord", among many other practices. The penalty for which is being unable to claim being an Israelite.

Furthermore, Jesus recognizes in Matthew 22:23-33, Luke 20:27-40, and Mark 12:18-27 that marriage is purely a terrestrial affair. Most importantly, Luke 6:30-31 has Jesus commanding, "Give to everyone who asks you for something, and when someone takes what is yours do not ask for it back. Do for others just what you want them to do for you."

Because the marriage applicants are not seeking to be recognized as Israelites and because they are asking to be recognized as married before the law and because my client the Court Clerk is Christian who is, themself, married, I invoke the Religious Freedom bill to declare the state Constitutional and statutory definitions of marriage as infringing my client's religious beliefs. Furthermore I submit that any opponent of same sex marriage is not Christian as per the teachings of Christ. "
 
2013-03-31 03:37:52 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: And all it will take is one lawyer to say:

" It's true that Leviticus 18:22 states "No man is to have sexual relations with another man; it is an abomination unto the Lord", among many other practices. The penalty for which is being unable to claim being an Israelite.

Furthermore, Jesus recognizes in Matthew 22:23-33, Luke 20:27-40, and Mark 12:18-27 that marriage is purely a terrestrial affair. Most importantly, Luke 6:30-31 has Jesus commanding, "Give to everyone who asks you for something, and when someone takes what is yours do not ask for it back. Do for others just what you want them to do for you."

Because the marriage applicants are not seeking to be recognized as Israelites and because they are asking to be recognized as married before the law and because my client the Court Clerk is Christian who is, themself, married, I invoke the Religious Freedom bill to declare the state Constitutional and statutory definitions of marriage as infringing my client's religious beliefs. Furthermore I submit that any opponent of same sex marriage is not Christian as per the teachings of Christ. "


Won't work in Kentucky.

Kentucky passed one of those damnable "Defense of Marriage" amendments to its state constitution by popular referendum in 2004.

A state law, like this one, can't overturn a state constitutional amendment.

It's going to take another referendum, or something at the Federal level (like say a SCOTUS ruling) to change that in the Commonwealth.
 
2013-03-31 03:44:49 PM  

Ed Willy: Does that mean Fark is now a religion? Because I need my Catruday's off to drink good beer and hate on our  mortal enemies Duke.


Also, Drew is Pope

[www.themoralofthestoryis.com image 298x386]


Praise his Holiness Pope Drew I
/Kentuckian
//Duke sucks!
//virgule x3
 
2013-03-31 03:45:38 PM  
Kentuckians OVERWHELMINGLY vote for these people, they deserve these kinds of oppressive laws.
 
2013-03-31 03:46:10 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: Satanic_Hamster: Let me guess; this is mainly geared towards outlawing abortion and birth control.

Actually, it's pretty much geared towards doing away with the few Fairness ordinances in the state--you know, the laws that say that you can't be fired because your boss thinks you might have The Gay.  (The local dominionists have been pretty much unsuccessful in overturning them locally, so they've worked with the state legislature--which is far more dominionist-friendly and Southern Baptist-controlled--to basically give dominionists a free ticket to disregard those laws.)

Of course, as others have pointed out, they've also effectively legalised a lot of things they probably did not intend--things like polygamy, moonshine (in dry counties), marijuana (not just the Rastas, quite a number of other groups do use marijuana as a sacrament including at least one Christian church), snake-handling churches (illegal since 1946 but only sporadically enforced as it is), peyote (there aren't any federally recognised tribes in the US but this opens up for ANYONE to use peyote sacramentally), psilocybes (magic mushrooms are used by shamanic practitioners in European paleopagan and "reconstructionist" neopagan faiths), setting up one's own brothel and drug den as the First Temple of Slaanesh...

Of course, I also expect this will go away soon enough the very first time that someone is fired for being a member of the Wrong Religion and decides to file suit in federal court and/or the first time that a group using cannabis or peyote as a sacrament gets busted by the state cops.  (Unfortunately, even our Democrats tend to be Republicans in spirit here, and the General Assembly tends to be prone to this sort of derp and the following courthouse smackdown.  About a decade ago, they tried to basically regulate non-Christian denominations out of existence by requiring licensing for pastors, and it was ironically a member of a small Primitive Baptist church that got THAT law overturned in ...



The whole thing was started by yet another court case over these:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-31 03:51:15 PM  

angrymacface: MrHappyRotter: In my religion, I have the right to have sex with any man who sexually arouses me.  Also, does this apply to the laws of physics?

I like your religion, where can I join?


I'm currently accepting applications in the rear.
 
2013-03-31 03:51:21 PM  

Silverstaff: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: And all it will take is one lawyer to say:

" It's true that Leviticus 18:22 states "No man is to have sexual relations with another man; it is an abomination unto the Lord", among many other practices. The penalty for which is being unable to claim being an Israelite.

Furthermore, Jesus recognizes in Matthew 22:23-33, Luke 20:27-40, and Mark 12:18-27 that marriage is purely a terrestrial affair. Most importantly, Luke 6:30-31 has Jesus commanding, "Give to everyone who asks you for something, and when someone takes what is yours do not ask for it back. Do for others just what you want them to do for you."

Because the marriage applicants are not seeking to be recognized as Israelites and because they are asking to be recognized as married before the law and because my client the Court Clerk is Christian who is, themself, married, I invoke the Religious Freedom bill to declare the state Constitutional and statutory definitions of marriage as infringing my client's religious beliefs. Furthermore I submit that any opponent of same sex marriage is not Christian as per the teachings of Christ. "

Won't work in Kentucky.

Kentucky passed one of those damnable "Defense of Marriage" amendments to its state constitution by popular referendum in 2004.

A state law, like this one, can't overturn a state constitutional amendment.

It's going to take another referendum, or something at the Federal level (like say a SCOTUS ruling) to change that in the Commonwealth.


Oh, it's no what you think. It's much, much worse.

An argument like that then sets up a contradiction between Section 233A (DOMA) and Sections 2,3,4 and 5 (Freedom from tyranny of the majority, equality of all men in a social compact, the power of the people to abolish in any manner they deem proper, and religious freedom) of your State's Constitution. 233A would then be unlikely to survive.
 
2013-03-31 03:54:40 PM  
I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.
 
2013-03-31 03:55:55 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound:
Oh, it's not what you think. It's much, much worse.

An argument like that then sets up a contradiction between Section 233A (DOMA) and Sections 2,3,4 and 5 (Freedom from tyranny of the majority, equality of all men in a social compact, the power of the people to abolish government in any manner they deem proper, and religious freedom) of your State's Constitution. Section 233A would then be unlikely to survive.


FTFM. Multiple typos.
 
2013-03-31 03:57:24 PM  

fluffy2097: Summercat: Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.

The subtext is that what they said did not matter.

If their inability to convince the robot was a problem, then horrible things would have happened when the storm hit.

But the robot had faith which, being trapped on a space station his entire existence, is all he really needs. He just needs to make sure the power goes where it is supposed to. Who's will it is that it be done is unimportant.

That screams an agnostic viewpoint to me.



Check your hearing.

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
-- Isaac Asimov
 
2013-03-31 03:59:00 PM  

shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.


I was thinking the same thing.  It's like those assholes that get all fired up about rape even though they've never been raped before.
 
2013-03-31 04:04:58 PM  

shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.


I live in Kentucky and am absolutely horrified that this state has allowed filth like this to exist as well as elect Mcconnell to the Senate.

Oh well, I keep voting against bullshiat like this, and try to convince others to do so as well.
 
2013-03-31 04:19:20 PM  
What if god is quantum physics
 
2013-03-31 04:29:25 PM  

Girion47: shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.

I live in Kentucky and am absolutely horrified that this state has allowed filth like this to exist as well as elect Mcconnell to the Senate.

Oh well, I keep voting against bullshiat like this, and try to convince others to do so as well.


Even if I don't have a ride I make sure to vote,but it's so farking hard to try to convince some people I know to vote.  They'll biatch about politics all day but they don't vote which annoys the fark out of me. I find voting to be my duty as a citizen,what the hell happened to other people thinking like that?
/I'm beginning to think that McConnell won't leave office til he dies,just like Gorman in Hazard.
 
2013-03-31 04:38:00 PM  

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: cman:Apparently a core Christian value is oppressing others.


Of course it is -- and has been ever since Christianity became the official state religion of the Roman Empire.
 
2013-03-31 04:38:22 PM  
Fairly simple solution - billboards everywhere saying

"Republicans vote to allow Sharia Law"
 
2013-03-31 04:39:48 PM  

TheBigJerk: Lawnchair: that bosnian sniper: The funny thing is, I've already heard of a minister or two, and more than a few gay couples, in Louisville who are going to cite this very law in the course of applying for marriage licenses and marrying.

Yep, that.  There are 9 Unitarian churches in Kentucky (okay, only 4 large enough to have full-time ministers), and I'm pretty sure all of them have at least one same-sex couple to marry as soon as this law is applicable.

Your move, Kentucky.

Better than the marijuana option, since it won't get you arrested.  Yet I am sure they will still wriggle out of it.  I just wonder how.

Ah, I know.  "Disobeying the law is not the same as forcing the law to recognize you."  Followed by some kid getting suspended for not attending a mandatory school prayer because they have the self-awareness and memory of a goldfish.


And then the case gets taken to federal court and the law gets thrown out...under pretty much the exact same precedent why we cannot mandate a "minister's license" because it puts the state in the position of what determines a legitimate religion.

(Incidentally, this is how that one Primitive Baptist pastor did get the "minister's license" thing thrown out--he pointed out that this put the state in the position of determining what a legitimate church was or not, and that it had the chance to illegally discriminate against small congregations (like his--he had maybe thirty regular churchgoers) or minority religions.  This is also how that mandatory "Ten Commandments in schools" (yes, in Kentucky, it was mandated by law) got invalidated--Jewish and Catholic folks pointed out that the version posted was a very specifically Protestant one and thus put the state in the unenviable position of basically proclaiming a preference for Protestantism (and outside of Louisville, Lexington, Covington, Paducah, Owensboro, or near Catholic convents and monasteries..."Protestant" basically means either "Southern Baptist", "Snake-handler Oneness Pentecostal", or "full-on NARasite neopentecostal with a major dose of Name-It-And-Claim-It Prosperity Gospel").)
 
2013-03-31 04:40:39 PM  

thornhill: Princess Ryans Knickers: thornhill: And now we have a new error of Jim Crow

Era...

iPhone autocorrect. Ugh. At least it didn't come out saying something about sex.



I vote for 'error'.
 
2013-03-31 04:41:33 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: "Snake-handler Oneness Pentecostal",


I used to wonder why the hell some churches around here had ambulances on site that is until a woman died from snakebites to the face.
 
2013-03-31 04:42:09 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Let me guess; this is mainly geared towards outlawing abortion and birth control.


Don't forget teh marryin' gheys!
 
2013-03-31 04:42:53 PM  

mjjt: Fairly simple solution - billboards everywhere saying

"Republicans vote to allow Sharia Law"


Your newsletter, subscription please...
 
2013-03-31 04:48:39 PM  

fluffy2097: Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics.


Um... about 3/4 of Asimov's work is non-fiction, the man was a PhD Biochemist and published, among other things, a number of basic and advanced chemistry textbooks which you'd likely have used in high school or college when they were current.

(Though he never comes out and says they are slaves,

Except for that being probably the major, explicit running theme of the stories, sure.

How alive are they?

That's the other explicit running theme that's discussed at length, yes.

One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

He also wrote stories where Satan and God were actual characters, and the whole point of that story was whether story-telling was a bug or a feature.

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

In addition to his textbooks, his non-fiction work included a lot of educational books for children on science, engineering, and logic.  You might consider reading some of them.

Also, if you think that logic and philosophy are separate, mutually exclusive things, all I can say is that I'm sorry you're illiterate and never made it to your freshman year of college.  Tragic, man.  you never even got to learn what an ad hominem argument was.
 
2013-03-31 05:20:00 PM  
My sincere religious beliefs let me fondle large breasted women openly in public. It is part of our long, sincerely held belief that it is to help fertility in the time of pubescent breeding.
 
2013-03-31 05:30:02 PM  

shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.


You sure twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to troll this thread.

So you get 1/10.

Better luck next time.
 
2013-03-31 06:44:36 PM  

way south: Arthur Jumbles: FTFA:The bill says that government shall not infringe on any person's sincerely held religious beliefs unless it can show with "clear and convincing evidence" some compelling governmental interest for doing so.

Yikes, I don't actually have a problem with this! The government shouldn't be making ANY law that restricts a person's liberty unless it had some "compelling governmental interest" in doing so. If they just removed the word "religious" from the bill I'd be supporting this 100% with a smile on my face.

This.

/On Its face it sounds like the kind of law that shouldn't be needed tho.
/Implying that, without it, the government could infringe on people's rights with no valid reason?


Exactly. Ironically enough, most of the times when the government passed laws restricting a person's rights without "compelling governmental interest" it was for religious reasons (e.g. laws against gambling, liquor, stores doing business on Sunday, religious holidays, pornography, etc...etc....)
 
2013-03-31 07:50:45 PM  

balloot: Kentucky sounds like a solid place to go if you want to practice Sharia Law.


Welcome to Teabagistan!
 
2013-03-31 07:53:16 PM  
So are they going to have laws against coveting soon? That should be fun. Thoughtcrime!
 
2013-03-31 08:13:41 PM  

HeartBurnKid: I'm a SubGenuis. My religion requires me to do whatever the fark I want, whenever the fark I want to do it. I think I could have some fun in Kentucky.


/maybe I should move there...
//nah, then I'd have to live in Kentucky.



Pull the wool over your own eyes, bro.
 
2013-03-31 08:24:23 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.



What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.
 
2013-03-31 09:14:19 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: cman: I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Let's make this easy, who is being forced to commit actions against their deeply held beliefs? As far as I can tell, no church is being forced to perform same-sex marriages or interracial marriages for that matter.

The problem is that the religious have confused not being able to enforce their religious beliefs as law with being forced to do things that run counter to their religion.


It's never easy.

A religion that requires the faithful to actively prevent others from sinning is conceivable; indeed, such "deeply held religious beliefs" exist.  A person holding such beliefs must vote against bills and public officials that would allow sinning.  Therein lies the conflict between religion and government.

It is not permissible to prohibit such religions.  It is not necessary to require authoritative proof of a religion's requirements or to test how deeply a belief is held by a person.  The question is, can the government restrain the expression of such beliefs whether they are based in scripture, sincerely if incorrectly held, or feigned?  Yes.

Religious expression, like any other right, is subject to restraints when it conflicts with compelling government interests; not merely popular or desirable interests, but interests which the government is compelled by the Constitution to pursue.  Protecting the rights of non-believers is certainly a compelling interest.

How must restraints be constructed and applied? They must be narrowly tailored to restrain the religious freedom of as few people as possible.  They must restrain the religious freedom of those few in the least restrictive manner available.

This is how the U. S. is run.  It complicated, messy, and inefficient... on purpose.  Checks and balances, all around.  Nobody gets things entirely his way.
 
2013-03-31 09:40:49 PM  

qorkfiend: While I don't think anyone should be surprised that this cunning plan was not thought all the way through, it's amusing to note that the ultimate result of this law is to grant government a massive, broad new power: the power to determine what is and is not a "sincerely held religious belief".


Governments already have the power to determine whether a person is sincere in claiming to hold a religious belief.  See Linkener v State of Alaska.
 
2013-03-31 09:48:16 PM  

sprgrss: The United States Supreme Court already answered this question many, many years ago.  Too bad the law will fail on the first judicial review.


If  you're talking about the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, only the portion applying it to the States was struck down.  It still applies to the federal government, territories, and DC.  This Kentucky bill is an attempt to emulate the RFRA at the State level.
 
2013-03-31 10:27:31 PM  
My deeply held belief is that I shouldn't have to pay state income tax, drive the speed limit, should be able to drink at work, and my religion disproves of me wearing pants.

This could turn into some hysterical stuff!
 
2013-03-31 10:39:31 PM  
Granted the King James Bible was written before democracy and republics had really started to spread, I think you'll find Romans 13: 1 has this pretty much open and shut as being bullsh*t.

/Sigh. Can't wait to see how outrageously this blows up in their faces. I just hope nobody gets hurt because of it             :|
 
2013-03-31 11:29:24 PM  
IOW, Kentucky has now given anyone convicted of any crime grounds for appeal, no matter how clear-cut the case.  
 
I love how the legislation is only one paragraph long.  No need to get specific here! Why bother creating exceptions for traffic laws or child abuse or health codes-- that's what the courts are for! We've got more ALEC junkets to attend!
 
2013-03-31 11:39:39 PM  

Gosling: Well, THIS isn't going to end like that Nebraska law that ended in people from halfway across the country dumping their teenagers and driving off.


What was that? I couldn't hear you over the screams of my human sacrifices and the bleating of the goats I'm preparing for Walpurgis Nacht.
 
2013-03-31 11:41:39 PM  
shotglasss (farkied: Has had way too many shotglasses): I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.
 
Fundies are everywhere, and derp never dies.  (Though it does kill.)  If this schitt flies in one state, there'll be no shortage of idjits and Foxbots trying to enact it in the other 49.
 
2013-04-01 12:07:43 AM  

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: IOW, Kentucky has now given anyone convicted of any crime grounds for appeal, no matter how clear-cut the case.  
 
I love how the legislation is only one paragraph long.  No need to get specific here! Why bother creating exceptions for traffic laws or child abuse or health codes-- that's what the courts are for! We've got more ALEC junkets to attend!


Not just criminal, you could drown the legal system in cases since this law puts it on the  government to prove it is necessary. Even mundane crap could be dragged through the courts. Hell, if I lived in KY I'd go full on troll mode with it just to prove how stupid it is. 
Photos on my driver's license? No thanks, the picture captures my soul says my deeply held religious beliefs.
 
2013-04-01 01:12:35 AM  

cman: These kinds of things always conflict me.

I am a person who believes heavily in the freedom of religion. Although I do not believe in god I do believe that our nation was founded on core beliefs that included religious freedom.

At the same time, I dislike bigotry.

This has its awkward moments when I have to negotiate those "race mixing is devils tool" with allowing those people to not be discriminated. Then you have those who believe in the sanctity of marriage betwixt a man and a woman. That is unacceptable because marriage is a legal issue, not a moral one. Some of these people really do feel that if they are forced to wed two gay people (or back in the 50s a white and a black) then god will smite them. To them, two homosexuals marrying is on the same par as other crime.

I am really unsure how to resolve this. I dislike bigotry and I dislike it when people must commit actions against their deeply held beliefs.

Anyone else deal with this kind of internal conflict?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
 
I fail to see where exactly hatred, judgement and condemnation are mentioned.  Two really simply alternatives, the religious right can sit down and shutup or find some other country to live in.
 
/fix the budget, tax all religions.
 
2013-04-01 01:21:23 AM  

404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.

 
 
What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.
 
www.reoiv.com
 
2013-04-01 02:42:01 AM  

shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.


I'm not seeing any massive butthurt, but thanks for playing.
 
2013-04-01 04:34:40 AM  

shotglasss: I wonder how many of the people in this thread expressing massive butthurt over this don't live in Kentucky.


What the hell does that got to do with anything?  It happened in my country, that's reason enough.
 
2013-04-01 04:46:06 AM  

404 page not found: I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces.

 
i234.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-01 06:28:02 AM  

404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.


What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.


Imma say that's from a movie I might like to know about.....

Marine 'core'... really? I guess with the gorilla thing I should have expected that.
 
2013-04-01 07:26:21 AM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: My religion just determined that orgies with 16 year old girls is an appropriate way to worship.

I guess I'm moving to Kentucky, as it's now legal!


It probably is already, it seems like the kind of state with a under 18 age of consent.
 
2013-04-01 09:45:36 AM  

404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.

 
 
What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.
 
 
That was beautiful. You made the cover:
 
a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-04-01 11:50:20 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: qorkfiend: While I don't think anyone should be surprised that this cunning plan was not thought all the way through, it's amusing to note that the ultimate result of this law is to grant government a massive, broad new power: the power to determine what is and is not a "sincerely held religious belief".

 
Governments already have the power to determine whether a person is sincere in claiming to hold a religious belief.  See Linkener v State of Alaska.
 
Interesting, it seems they failed because the 'ritual' was made up after the fact.  Had they gone with an established religion, or at least documented their beliefs (sounds like a cross between Rastafarian and Church of the Brethern [feet washers as my father in law calls them]), they would have been fine...  well at least be able to return that legal volley.
 
/Just for the (legal) record, while I sometimes claim to be Atheist, I am truly agnostic as there IS no way to prove the lack of god.
//This religion seems to make the most sense from what I've seen from it. 
///There does seem to be something missing from my life,  Perhaps it's time to reconsider my official religious affiliation.
 
2013-04-01 11:52:06 AM  

TheGogmagog: ///There does seem to be something missing from my life, Perhaps it's time to reconsider my official religious affiliation.


Or you could just cruise BackPage. ;-)
 
2013-04-01 11:59:22 AM  

give me doughnuts: fluffy2097: Summercat: Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.

The subtext is that what they said did not matter.

If their inability to convince the robot was a problem, then horrible things would have happened when the storm hit.

But the robot had faith which, being trapped on a space station his entire existence, is all he really needs. He just needs to make sure the power goes where it is supposed to. Who's will it is that it be done is unimportant.

That screams an agnostic viewpoint to me.


Check your hearing.

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
-- Isaac Asimov


The hilariously ironic thing about that statement, is that his atheism is based in faith in the unknowable. He does not have the proof that god does not exist, but he strongly thinks so, so he's not going to waste any more time on the issue. God's not real.
 
This does not sound familiar to you?
 
2013-04-01 12:08:14 PM  

fluffy2097: give me doughnuts: fluffy2097: Summercat: Further, I think you missed part of the subtext of that very story which was that the two human characters in the setting could not prove to the robot anything they were saying. You also miss the entire subtext of all the Robot stories, where the robots were strange sympathetic beings that humanity created but did not understand, and did not trust - for no damn good reason.

The subtext is that what they said did not matter.

If their inability to convince the robot was a problem, then horrible things would have happened when the storm hit.

But the robot had faith which, being trapped on a space station his entire existence, is all he really needs. He just needs to make sure the power goes where it is supposed to. Who's will it is that it be done is unimportant.

That screams an agnostic viewpoint to me.


Check your hearing.

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
-- Isaac Asimov

The hilariously ironic thing about that statement, is that his atheism is based in faith in the unknowable. He does not have the proof that god does not exist, but he strongly thinks so, so he's not going to waste any more time on the issue. God's not real.
 
This does not sound familiar to you?


If I ever heard a religious person say "I don't know God exists, but I strongly suspect he does", I might have a modicum more respect for the whole thing.
 
2013-04-01 01:15:18 PM  

HeartBurnKid:
If I ever heard a religious person say "I don't know God exists, but I strongly suspecet he does", I might have a modicum more respect for the whole thing.


For what it's worth, that is what the vast majority of religious people say in my experience, although they may phrase it more like "Of course I can't prove the existense of Jehova/Vishnu/etc., but I have faith!" or "Blessed are those that have not seen, yet they believe", or something like that.
 
2013-04-01 01:41:54 PM  

404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.


What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.


Man, you gotta give a heads up before posting shiat like this. I just kicked the shiat out of my cat from laugh spasms.
 
2013-04-01 01:47:45 PM  

Dansker: HeartBurnKid:
If I ever heard a religious person say "I don't know God exists, but I strongly suspecet he does", I might have a modicum more respect for the whole thing.

For what it's worth, that is what the vast majority of religious people say in my experience, although they may phrase it more like "Of course I can't prove the existense of Jehova/Vishnu/etc., but I have faith!" or "Blessed are those that have not seen, yet they believe", or something like that.


That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know", not "I don't know, but I strongly suspect".
 
2013-04-01 02:25:48 PM  

404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.


What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.


Wow.  What an asshole.  Hey 404!  Yeah!  I'm laughing at you right now.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
2013-04-01 02:58:00 PM  

plewis: 404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.


What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.

Wow.  What an asshole.  Hey 404!  Yeah!  I'm laughing at you right now.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-04-01 03:02:57 PM  

HeartBurnKid: That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know", not "I don't know, but I strongly suspect".


Cant prove it, but i know god exists.

I cant prove it, but I strongly suspect he does not, so I know god does not exist.

The logic is no different. Only the wording.

He is making an emotional leap of faith to say their is no god, and I have no problem with that.

Fundamentalist atheists will not admit to such a leap existing. They are morons.
 
2013-04-01 03:37:51 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Dansker: HeartBurnKid:
If I ever heard a religious person say "I don't know God exists, but I strongly suspecet he does", I might have a modicum more respect for the whole thing.

For what it's worth, that is what the vast majority of religious people say in my experience, although they may phrase it more like "Of course I can't prove the existense of Jehova/Vishnu/etc., but I have faith!" or "Blessed are those that have not seen, yet they believe", or something like that.

That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know"


No, not unless you have a dictionary that defines "faith" as "knowledge".
 
2013-04-01 04:22:25 PM  
fluffy2097:
Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.


I am modestly sure that Asimov knew he was writing fiction.
 
2013-04-01 04:51:53 PM  

fluffy2097: HeartBurnKid: That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know", not "I don't know, but I strongly suspect".

Cant prove it, but i know god exists.

I cant prove it, but I strongly suspect he does not, so I know god does not exist.

The logic is no different. Only the wording.

He is making an emotional leap of faith to say their is no god, and I have no problem with that.

Fundamentalist atheists will not admit to such a leap existing. They are morons.


The logic is entirely different.  The first is a positive assertion (god exists) and is entirely untestable.  The second is a scientific response, based on the simple fact that the first is scientifically untestable.  If someone said that Purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns existed, and no matter how much you looked, no matter how much testing you did, you could not find one, you would eventually say that they simply do not exist.  If you were being stringent, you would say that it is very likely they do not exist, as the .0xn1 (where n is a REALLY big set of zeroes) chance of them not existing is simply overwhelming, but does not actually constitute proof of NON-existence.

Or are you looking at the whole soft verses hard atheism thing?

To be absolutely clear, "There cannot be a god" is a position of faith, however it is a faith that is grounded in much hard evidence.  "There very likely is no god, in much the same way there very like are no Purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns" is simply a much clearer version of the above, allowing for potential variance in reality that may be discovered later.
 
2013-04-01 06:03:01 PM  

hairywoogit: fluffy2097: HeartBurnKid: That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know", not "I don't know, but I strongly suspect".

Cant prove it, but i know god exists.

I cant prove it, but I strongly suspect he does not, so I know god does not exist.

The logic is no different. Only the wording.

He is making an emotional leap of faith to say their is no god, and I have no problem with that.

Fundamentalist atheists will not admit to such a leap existing. They are morons.

The logic is entirely different.  The first is a positive assertion (god exists) and is entirely untestable.  The second is a scientific response, based on the simple fact that the first is scientifically untestable.  If someone said that Purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns existed, and no matter how much you looked, no matter how much testing you did, you could not find one, you would eventually say that they simply do not exist.  If you were being stringent, you would say that it is very likely they do not exist, as the .0xn1 (where n is a REALLY big set of zeroes) chance of them not existing is simply overwhelming, but does not actually constitute proof of NON-existence.

Or are you looking at the whole soft verses hard atheism thing?

To be absolutely clear, "There cannot be a god" is a position of faith, however it is a faith that is grounded in much hard evidence.  "There very likely is no god, in much the same way there very like are no Purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns" is simply a much clearer version of the above, allowing for potential variance in reality that may be discovered later.


I saw purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns at Bonnaroo.
 
2013-04-01 06:22:42 PM  

clambam: hippi


Actually, it was a quotation of Hillel that Akiva was referencing.

The recognition of ethical maxims as 'Fundamental Principles' may derive from the high regard in which the Torah and Talmud hold such wisdom. "Love your neighbor as yourself," states the Bible (Leviticus 19:18), an injunction that Akiva ben Joseph in Genesis Rabbah 24:7 famously calls a "great principle" of the Torah (or perhaps "the greatest principle"). In Shabbos 31a, Hillel says "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your friend: This is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary. Go now and learn!"- Wikipedia
 
2013-04-01 06:43:08 PM  
You!
No you!
NO you!
No YOU!
 
2013-04-01 07:01:57 PM  

Candy Colored Clown: 404 page not found: The My Little Pony Killer: I would have told him to take his butt back to 4chan.


What the fark did you just farking say about me, you little biatch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fark out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my farking words. You think you can get away with saying that shiat to me over the Internet? Think again, farker. As we speak, I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic thing you call your life. You're farking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Core and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shiat. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your farking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're gonna pay the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shiat fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're farking dead, kiddo. Happy Easter.

Man, you gotta give a heads up before posting shiat like this. I just kicked the shiat out of my cat from laugh spasms.



My apologies to your cat. I wish I could claim ownership but I borrowed it from someone.
 
2013-04-01 07:18:00 PM  

fluffy2097: HeartBurnKid: That's my point: They say "I can't prove it, but I know", not "I don't know, but I strongly suspect".

Cant prove it, but i know god exists.

I cant prove it, but I strongly suspect he does not, so I know god does not exist.

The logic is no different. Only the wording.

He is making an emotional leap of faith to say their is no god, and I have no problem with that.

Fundamentalist atheists will not admit to such a leap existing. They are morons.


The bolded part is what you added in there, and not what Asimov said.

The underlined part is your stupid catchphrase that will never, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever catch on.
 
2013-04-01 09:01:19 PM  
Girion47:
I saw purple maned sparkle-shiatting unicorns at Bonnaroo.

Can you share?  Damn Candy Kids get all the good stuff.
 
2013-04-03 01:36:23 AM  

fluffy2097: blastoh: Dansker: The Iconoclast: First, can we please have some "clear and convincing evidence" that there is a God?

One man's "clear and convincing" is another man's "nonsensical and illogical".

[www.fishink.us image 720x540]


/oblig

Asimov made his living writing books about sentient robots with positronic brains, bent into human slavery by the 3 laws of robotics. (Though he never comes out and says they are slaves, it is a major point of discussion in his robot stories. How alive are they? One even comes up with the concept of a God (And then runs equipment through a solar storm better then 2 humans EVER Could, while the human atheists debated dismantling him because he had faith.)

I'm not sure he's your go-to guy for sense and logic.

Philosophy, sure.


You might want to read his bio a little more closely.  Vice president of Mensa, president of the American Humanist Assosiation,  PhD in Biochemistry, veteran, tenured professor at Boston University, and published in 9 out of ten major categories of the dewy decimal system, his least prolific of them being philosophy.  I think he's just fine as a "go to" guy for intelectual logic and sense.
 
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