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(CNN)   NY state court says that 9/11 Cross may be allowed in the memorial's museum. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (cnn.com) divider line 37
    More: Obvious, World Trade Center Cross, Judges' Rules, World Trade Center, A New York, American Atheists, Franciscans, museums  
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6055 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 5:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-30 04:14:02 PM
5 votes:
I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.
2013-03-30 04:08:08 PM
4 votes:
Jesus Christ, atheists can be assholes.
2013-03-30 06:23:27 PM
2 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?
2013-03-30 06:01:07 PM
2 votes:

eraser8: Mugato: Jesus Christ, atheists can be assholes.

Any person can be an asshole.

Christians can be assholes.

Muslims can be assholes.

Hindus can be assholes.

Drinkers can be assholes.

Teetotalers can be assholes.

Men can be assholes.

Women can be assholes.

Hell, you don't even need to be human to be an asshole.  I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.


Yeah, we won't even get started on geese. Those bastards wrote the book.
2013-03-30 05:57:35 PM
2 votes:

Smeggy Smurf: Silly athiests, it's almost as though they think they're persecuted.  What, do they want to be jewish or something?


According to The Jewish Week, Dave Silverman (FTA) is both Jewish and atheist.


/I wonder where he's celebrating Passover?
2013-03-30 05:51:13 PM
2 votes:
Giant "who cares?"
At the end of the day, that "cross" was important to a lot of people, and as such, belongs in the museum as it commemorates not only 9/11, but the turmoil afterwards.
If a bunch of beams fell and arranged themselves into a portrait of Billy Corgan, and for whatever reason a bunch of people found solace in it, it isn't my place to say it doesn't belong at the 9/11 memorial simply because I, and a few victims, farking hated Smashing Pumpkins.

You guys can go ahead and use that allegory the next time you talk about this. I know it's succinct and poignant.
2013-03-30 05:05:24 PM
2 votes:

violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.



Yeah, but good luck getting that to fly.
2013-03-30 04:50:59 PM
2 votes:
img.photobucket.com
I'm an atheist and I don't even give a f*ck.
2013-03-30 04:16:37 PM
2 votes:

Mugato: Jesus Christ, atheists can be assholes.


Any person can be an asshole.

Christians can be assholes.

Muslims can be assholes.

Hindus can be assholes.

Drinkers can be assholes.

Teetotalers can be assholes.

Men can be assholes.

Women can be assholes.

Hell, you don't even need to be human to be an asshole.  I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.
2013-03-30 03:24:29 PM
2 votes:
it's just one of thousands of T-braces used in the construction of that building.
2013-03-31 02:32:29 AM
1 votes:

Sensei Can You See: Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?

Not the problem. See, the problem is that if they put a cross in the 9/11 museum, any atheists who died on 9/11 will be retroactively erased from the time-space continuum.


Or baptized.
2013-03-31 02:28:10 AM
1 votes:

Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?


Not the problem. See, the problem is that if they put a cross in the 9/11 museum, any atheists who died on 9/11 will be retroactively erased from the time-space continuum.
2013-03-31 12:33:09 AM
1 votes:
hey, if people want to fight over a graven image, let them.
2013-03-30 11:47:57 PM
1 votes:

Vangor: Wonder what this symbol would be? I know American Atheists have a symbol, but I do not know what connection this would have to the events of September 11th. He appears to be missing the point.



A fine example of becoming what you hate.  Next I bet they'll start wearing some really odd hats.
2013-03-30 10:09:31 PM
1 votes:

jso2897: The term "historical accuracy" is an oxymoron, and holding it up as a value that trumps anybody's happiness is something I don't agree with.



Should the Holocaust museums be redecorated and the stories revised to make the museums a place of joy? After all, if they stay as-is, their "accuracy" in telling the story of 12+ million people murdered would stifle my right to be happy during my visit to the museum.
2013-03-30 09:48:11 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?

Did someone reject the atheist gravestone?



17. "And he [Jesus] beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

18. "Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

Luke 20:17-18 KJV


Apropos?

;-)
2013-03-30 09:30:04 PM
1 votes:

jcooli09: ronaprhys: jso2897:Ah, so it's a matter of numbers. What percentage or number of people is require for the comfort someone might feel at seeing the symbol of their religion displayed to become legitimate, in your view?

That doesn't follow from what I wrote.  Try again.

someone else you are unable to understand.


You aren't particularly clever, you know that?  Shouldn't you be throwing a tantrum that there's a church in your town?
2013-03-30 09:19:08 PM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Proximuscentauri: When I think 'memorial', I immediately think 'BRONZE AGE TORTURE DEVICE'.

The idea of the Christian cross is that an instrument of punishment has been transformed into a symbol of redemption and the victory against injustice and death -- which makes it a more fitting symbol than any other for the 9/11 memorial, really, whatever your own beliefs might be.

Above all, it is the symbol of the "comeback" that is so beloved.  Like Rocky Balboa or Gabrielle Giffords.


Odd - when I think "bronze age torture device", bagpipes spring to mind.
2013-03-30 09:16:02 PM
1 votes:

ronaprhys: jso2897: Of course I have no point - never said I did.
The kind of "lying" I am doing is called "kidding" chum. Relax.
We both know that whatever the circumstances, if somebody tried to stick up a Muslim Crescent in that museum, a whole stratum of people would shiat their pants. I would not be among them, nor am I among those who object to the Cross, or to Thor's f**king hammer if it makes somebody feel better about a rotten, shiatty thing that happened.
Lighten up, Francis.
You'll get over it.

If you didn't have a point, you wouldn't be playing - unless you're just trolling for fun.

That being said, I would've found it amusing if another religious symbol had shown up.  In fact, probably the best would've been a Star of David.  Would've pissed off the perpetrators of the attack quite nicely, sent the conspiracy theory loons into a tizzy, and pissed off enough of the Christians to make it worthwhile.  A Buddhist symbol?  Meh - no one really hates them.  Christian?  Well, we're seeing that now and the furor is relatively slight.  The crescent?  Not enough folks here to truly drive the symbol into a museum.


Ah, so it's a matter of numbers. What percentage or number of people is require for the comfort someone might feel at seeing the symbol of their religion displayed to become legitimate, in your view?
2013-03-30 08:59:17 PM
1 votes:

prgrmr: Also, statistically speaking, what's amazing isn't that they pulled cross-shaped steel beams from the WTC rubble; what's amazing is that they only pulled out one.


What if I told you that they are displaying it in the wrong orientation? If this piece was displayed in the same manner as when it stood at the WTC it would display as an upside down cross. I'm sure some people would have a definite problem with this.            not a factual statement
2013-03-30 08:54:48 PM
1 votes:
EvilRacistNaziFascist:
They may not have come up with one you could agree with, and that's understandable; I can't honestly say I believe it myself. But then again, consider the atheist alternative, which is to say that bad things happen to good people because the universe is indifferent to us to the point of letting us suffer and die for even the most pointless reason, and it's because life sucks and there's not a goddamn thing we can do about that. I can well understand why people would prefer to believe in a complicated story involving a cosmic bet involving God and Satan instead. In the end, whatever theory we adopt (whether religious or atheist) isn't going to change the fact that life is short and that each of us is going to die, so I don't begrudge anyone their consolations in the meantime. It'd be a good thing if you keyboard warriors with your LOL SKY WIZARD schtick could keep in mind that hope is the rarest and most precious of all human commodities, especially to those who suffer, grieve, are seriously ill, etc.

This is the best case for keeping religion around. You have to keep the poor people in line. A little hope and a lot of guilt will keep them from asking why they have so little and others have so much. You just might not kill your neighbour for that loaf of bread if going to hell is the price.
2013-03-30 08:50:43 PM
1 votes:
Damn vampires
2013-03-30 08:43:50 PM
1 votes:

the ha ha guy: jcooli09: porn is much less damaging than religion, so I'm ok with it.  How about you?


You don't find it offensive therefore it's fine? Thanks for proving my point.

To answer your question, I would argue that there are more people in the US who find porn offensive than there are who find religious icons offensive.

So my question is, what makes your right to not be offended greater than the right of others to not be offended? Why should the ground-zero cross be erased from history while enormous genitalia is glorified and printed on our money?


They took the Penis Dollar Bill out of circulation years ago, man.
2013-03-30 08:42:00 PM
1 votes:

CanisNoir: Jeep2011: JeffreyScott: I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."

I am OK with this

I dunno, that's a pretty stupid stance and screams "I have no clue what I'm talking about." Someone already mentioned Free Will and the fact that God never said he would protect mankind from all the evils we insist upon inflicting on ourselves; that side of God ended with The Garden of Eden. (If you believe Jewish Tradition)

I appreciate all of the Atheists who have come out and stated their opposition to this suit and could care less if the cross is in the museum. Anything I say further goes towards the tantrum throwing children who claim to represent your side in the theological debate.

The cross represents a symbol that many people drew strength, courage, and a sense of hope from in a time of great tragedy. Nobody made it, crafted it and planted it there, it happened by coincidence and was adopted as a symbol of all that is good in "Faith". Of course it deserves to be in the museum, and no, an Atheist, Hindu, Budhist or any other type of religious symbol does not need to be added; as far as I know, they weren't there being latched on to by tons of people.

Anyone who has a problem with this because it "represents religion" is childlike in the sense that they are carrying a stupid, pointless and huge chip on their shoulder that will only serve to make their own lives miserable, and other innocents lives miserable through collateral damage. Grow the fark up.


I agree. As an atheist, I stay out of these issues - because it means nothing to me. I would much rather see members of other faiths deal with it - like having a Muslim demand a crescent be placed right next to the cross.
Just for the entertainment value, you understand. You'd support that, right? I mean what with you being a grownup, and all.
2013-03-30 08:30:25 PM
1 votes:

cman: Its people like you that give people like me a bad name.

Lets take a look at this shall we?

Are they forcing you to pray at the base of the cross? Are they forcing you to admit the existence of God? Are they even using verses from the bible?



Using that logic, putting a huge cross on public land in front of every courthouse in the country should be okay.
2013-03-30 08:30:25 PM
1 votes:

jcooli09: Just because you can't understand what I'm saying is no reason to get so upset, Nancy.


Understanding what you're saying is very easy to do.  Unfortunately for you, it's not anything original, intelligent, or particularly well thought out.

Quit liking what I don't like.
2013-03-30 08:26:06 PM
1 votes:
I often hear from the religious  that 'atheism is a religion'. Fine, so would there be any objection to a shrine remembering, specifically, the atheists who died in the attack? Like a plate of spaghetti or a teapot?
2013-03-30 07:37:40 PM
1 votes:
If 'power poles' and anything "t" shaped make you upset, it's you.
2013-03-30 07:30:13 PM
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: Atheist asshole trifecta in play.

Good job, assholes.


ct.fra.bz
2013-03-30 06:35:33 PM
1 votes:

YoOjo: It's only a shape.

/agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.


/apathetic, because agnosticism is too much like giving a fark.
2013-03-30 06:11:10 PM
1 votes:
I think it's entirely appropriate to include the cross of girders in the 9/11 museum. It's a stellar example of misguided religious thinking which reinforces unfounded superstition at the expense of rational thought.

The reason a cross was found in the wreckage at Ground Zero is because hundreds of thousands of such intersecting girders were used in the towers' construction. Structures are built at 90-degree angles because putting load-bearing structures perpendicular to the force of gravity is the strongest and most efficient method of construction.

It would have been a miracle if search teams hadn't found any cross-like shapes in the wreckage at Ground Zero.

People who find meaning in this artifact do so because they're attempting to retrofit the laws of physics into their religious belief systems. This nonsensical demand that the entire world conform to the religious preferences of some is what led to the attacks on the twin towers in the first place.

So it's a perfect metaphor for why the tragedy happened, and as long as there are people who see the welded intersection of two structural beams and regard it as a personal sign from God, there will be people willing to commit future 9/11s.
2013-03-30 06:00:09 PM
1 votes:
3000+ people dead and a cross gets jabbed on top of the rubble?

God's just trolling us at this point.

/3000+ folks escaping certain death would have been a REAL miracle.
//Just sayin'
2013-03-30 05:49:58 PM
1 votes:
God:

Did not prevent the attacks, resulting deaths, and resulting war(s), and deaths.

Did make his symbol appear in the rubble.
2013-03-30 05:49:49 PM
1 votes:
oh for..

www.patentspostgrant.com
2013-03-30 05:48:37 PM
1 votes:

ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.

The problem with pastafarianism is that it doesn't have its own city. No Mecca, Jerusalem, Vatican, or Salt Lake City. You have to have a city if you want to be a legitimate religion.


Using that criteria Scientology is a legitimate religion.  They (mostly) own downtown Clearwater.
2013-03-30 05:42:58 PM
1 votes:
Yes, clearly, what's needed here is more religion.
2013-03-30 04:47:28 PM
1 votes:

violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.


The problem with pastafarianism is that it doesn't have its own city. No Mecca, Jerusalem, Vatican, or Salt Lake City. You have to have a city if you want to be a legitimate religion.
 
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