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(CNN)   NY state court says that 9/11 Cross may be allowed in the memorial's museum. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (cnn.com) divider line 299
    More: Obvious, World Trade Center Cross, Judges' Rules, World Trade Center, A New York, American Atheists, Franciscans, museums  
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6055 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 5:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 11:23:37 PM

firefly212: Having the 9/11 cross in a museum is no more of an endorsement of religion than having whips and chains in a museum is an endorsement of slavery.


Nice move. Very nice.
 
2013-03-30 11:23:59 PM

the ha ha guy: jso2897: the ha ha guy: jso2897: Would it make ya feel better, little goil, if they'd been shoved outta windows?

In case you've forgotten, YOU were the one arguing that historical accuracy should be ignored in favor of making people happy. I'm only trying to determine how much history you're willing to destroy to achieve happiness.

None. History can be neither created nor destroyed. It isn't a real thing - it's a story people tell.
Human suffering, hope, joy - to me those are real things. Please don't be upset with me for not thinking what you think is important isn't - it's not like I have a choice in the matter. Just write it off as some guy being wrong on the Internet, and shine it on - I'm not important, and what I think shouldn't matter to you.


And I'm just another wrong guy on the internet who has nothing better to do on a Saturday night, so why do you care that I'm passing the time on Fark instead of watching TV or sitting on the toilet?

But in response to your post, altering proven historical facts to push a "happiness" agenda is no different than altering proven scientific facts to push a religious agenda.

If you want a version of reality that fits with your ideal but is backed up with zero facts, there are literally hundreds of sources for it. But don't try claiming that your ideal reality should be the default one.


I'm not. But to me, the function of religious symbols is to bring hope and comfort to the faithful. That, in MY value system, is more important that treating the equivalent of some people seeing Jesus' face in a grilled cheese sandwich as a "proven historical fact". But I'm not saying you're "wrong" - you just appear to have a different value system than I do - neither one of us has to be "right" or "wrong" I never said my reality should be the "default" one, nor do I believe that it should.
 
2013-03-30 11:25:54 PM

the ha ha guy: jso2897: Yep. That's how "history" starts, too. That's why I don't believe in either one, and wouldn't deny anyone anything that makes them happy on the basis of either one.
See? We're in total agreement.


What I want is to see factual accounts backed by physical evidence without interference from myths or false evidence.

What you want to see is myths and false evidence added to the official story just to make a terrible tragedy seem happier than it really was.

Since your desire inherently excludes my desire, we are not in agreement.


Well, I agree with you, even if you don't agree with me. I'm easy.
 
2013-03-30 11:30:04 PM

Man On Pink Corner: Does the Metropolitan Museum of Art receive government funding for religious exhibits?


Indeed they do. Here's one.

Even the State Department got involved.
 
2013-03-30 11:33:25 PM

MontanaDave: wiredroach: load-bearing structures perpendicular to the force of gravity is the strongest and most efficient method of construction.

Excuse me, sir, but you have a call from "geodesic dome."


Yeah, look at all those metropolises built from domes. It's clearly a winner.
 
2013-03-30 11:37:12 PM

halfof33: Anti-theist zealots.



Anti-theists are the antithesis of theists.


/Swear to God
 
2013-03-30 11:39:33 PM

Amos Quito: halfof33: Anti-theist zealots.


Anti-theists are the antithesis of theists.


/Swear to God


That sentence made my head hurt.

You're a meanie.
 
2013-03-30 11:45:33 PM

jso2897: I'm not. But to me, the function of religious symbols is to bring hope and comfort to the faithful. That, in MY value system, is more important that treating the equivalent of some people seeing Jesus' face in a grilled cheese sandwich as a "proven historical fact".



The shape of the metal is irrelevant, it could have been a PETA logo for all I care. What makes it historically significant is the story around it and the fact that it became a national icon.


jso2897: I never said my reality should be the "default" one, nor do I believe that it should.



You said that a crescent should be added to the museum anyway, despite the fact that there are no known historically significant crescent shaped pieces of rubble. You're arguing that if something makes people happy, happiness should trump accuracy.

So yes, it does appear that you want to add false stories to the official repository of history and evidence about the event.
 
2013-03-30 11:47:57 PM

Vangor: Wonder what this symbol would be? I know American Atheists have a symbol, but I do not know what connection this would have to the events of September 11th. He appears to be missing the point.



A fine example of becoming what you hate.  Next I bet they'll start wearing some really odd hats.
 
2013-03-30 11:48:20 PM
The difference between atheists and anti-theists is well demonstrated in this thread.
 
2013-03-30 11:50:58 PM

Vangor: I do not understand why legal battles such as this would infuriate anyone. The NAACP and AA are not elected officials and are working in a transparent manner within the scope of current laws to establish legal interpretation. What should infuriate everyone is when elected officials attempt to subvert the system away from public views to impose religious belief or lack of belief on others.


Maybe I missed it but aside from erecting icons in public spaces, which is by no means an exclusively Christian activity, how has the system been subverted in order to "impose" religious beliefs on others and force them to participate in religious rites?
 
2013-03-31 12:33:09 AM
hey, if people want to fight over a graven image, let them.
 
2013-03-31 12:34:08 AM
From the NYT:


Judge Batts wrote that the cross and its accompanying panels of text helped "demonstrate how those at ground zero coped with the devastation they witnessed." She called its purpose "historical and secular," and noted that it would be in the "Finding Meaning at Ground Zero" section of the museum, with placards explaining its meaning and the reason for its inclusion.


"No reasonable observer would view the artifact as endorsing Christianity," the judge said. She added, "The cross does not create excessive entanglement between the state and religion." She said the plaintiffs also failed to find any form of intentional discrimination or cite any adverse or unequal treatment on the basis of their religious beliefs.
 
2013-03-31 12:58:11 AM
As an agnostic I'm no more bothered by this than I am by the many paintings of jesus and other biblical figures hanging in the publicly funded museums around the country. Acknowledging that their are Christians in our society is not the same as forcing their views upon anyone. I'm infinitely more worried about things of substance like creationist teachings instead of science or DOMA or the influence of silly religious groups on alcohol and other adult activites.
 
2013-03-31 01:29:56 AM

nekom: Pick your battles, people.  This just isn't one worth fighting, on either side really.  Creationism being taught in science class?  BIG problem there.  This?  Blech, who cares?


Hey you're right because believing that one religion was better than another played absolutely no part in the entire reason that all those people died on 9/11 right? We should totally memorialize "our" religion even though it's clear "we" don't have one, but many. It would only be fair after we've demonized "their" religion and even suggested it isn't actually a religion.

Religion was the prime cause of 9/11, not giving equal weight to each religion was the secondary cause. Let's go ahead and demonize one religion while we memorialize another though. That is totally not an issue and is beneath our collective notice.

Here's another idea, how about we spank every naughty little girl and boy who thinks that their imaginary friend is better than everyone else's and make them all sit in time out when they instigate shiat like this. We can't ever be free until we treat everyone's silly superstitions the same. Some might say we can't ever really be free until we treat everyone with silly superstitions like the idiots they are. I would be one of those.
 
2013-03-31 01:37:35 AM

robodog: I'm infinitely more worried about things of substance like creationist teachings instead of science or DOMA or the influence of silly religious groups on alcohol and other adult activites.



I agree on the issue of teaching scientifically falsifiable ideas in public schools.  However on moral issues like alcohol and adult activities, I have to disagree.   Every individual should have equal say in the shaping of public policy.  No one should be marginalized because you personally don't like the reasons by which they arrived at their opinions.  Religious people aren't the only ones who frown upon your adult activities.  "Silly" feminist groups for example think you shouldn't look at porn or go to strip clubs.  I no more think feminists should be disenfranchised from society for their beliefs, than religious people should be for theirs.
 
2013-03-31 01:46:51 AM
I'm just waiting for the first militant atheist mass shooter.  One of them has to crack and waste a Sunday school.

/Whew, close one. Almost used "lanza" as a verb.
 
2013-03-31 01:58:09 AM
It's a symbol of a grave.

"The whole point of being an atheist is not giving a crap".
-atheist Adam Carolla on militant atheists
 
2013-03-31 01:59:45 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I'm just waiting for the first militant atheist mass shooter.  One of them has to crack and waste a Sunday school.

/Whew, close one. Almost used "lanza" as a verb.


Stalin didn't kill enough for you?
 
2013-03-31 02:01:45 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I'm just waiting for the first militant atheist mass shooter.  One of them has to crack and waste a Sunday school.

/Whew, close one. Almost used "lanza" as a verb.


Hey, Mao just brought in his kill list too. This should make you happy :)
 
2013-03-31 02:03:10 AM
Pol Pot says give me a chance bro!
 
2013-03-31 02:12:35 AM

muck4doo: BarkingUnicorn: I'm just waiting for the first militant atheist mass shooter.  One of them has to crack and waste a Sunday school.

/Whew, close one. Almost used "lanza" as a verb.

Stalin didn't kill enough for you?


Oh, all right... the first U. S. militant atheist shooter who wastes a Sunday school.

Of this century, just to cover my bases.
 
2013-03-31 02:28:10 AM

Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?


Not the problem. See, the problem is that if they put a cross in the 9/11 museum, any atheists who died on 9/11 will be retroactively erased from the time-space continuum.
 
2013-03-31 02:28:44 AM

BarkingUnicorn: muck4doo: BarkingUnicorn: I'm just waiting for the first militant atheist mass shooter.  One of them has to crack and waste a Sunday school.

/Whew, close one. Almost used "lanza" as a verb.

Stalin didn't kill enough for you?

Oh, all right... the first U. S. militant atheist shooter who wastes a Sunday school.

Of this century, just to cover my bases.


Why stop there? Only the first U. S. militant atheist shooter who wastes a Sunday school while wearing a pink tutu and wearing a bowl of spaghetti on his head should count.

/since most schools are closed on Sunday, and the ones that are open aren't technically "schools" but rather extensions of church services, might as well make it clear that you really don't intend for any incident to match the criteria at all
 
2013-03-31 02:32:29 AM

Sensei Can You See: Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?

Not the problem. See, the problem is that if they put a cross in the 9/11 museum, any atheists who died on 9/11 will be retroactively erased from the time-space continuum.


Or baptized.
 
2013-03-31 02:32:45 AM

prgrmr: Also, statistically speaking, what's amazing isn't that they pulled cross-shaped steel beams from the WTC rubble; what's amazing is that they only pulled out one.


If memory serves, this is the cross in question. It wasn't just pulled from the rubble; it was standing at the top of a pile of rubble. Make of that what you will, but it is a rather striking image.

thegopnet.com
 
2013-03-31 02:33:05 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: However on moral issues like alcohol and adult activities, I have to disagree.   Every individual should have equal say in the shaping of public policy.



Should, yes, but when religious groups like AA have permeated so far into the legal system, it's hard for anyone else to have their voice heard without going to federal court, and that's out of reach for most people when nobody else is willing to step in and help.
 
2013-03-31 02:34:39 AM

the ha ha guy: when religious groups like AA have permeated so far into the legal system


I've worked in state hospitals and prisons both, and let me just say this: There is a very good reason AA is so integral in those systems. That reason is because it works.
 
2013-03-31 02:41:19 AM

Sensei Can You See: the ha ha guy: when religious groups like AA have permeated so far into the legal system

I've worked in state hospitals and prisons both, and let me just say this: There is a very good reason AA is so integral in those systems. That reason is because it works.



Federal courts have ruled multiple times that it is a religious organization, therefore mandatory attendance violates the establishment clause.

Was the Constitution reworded when I wasn't looking to say something like "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion unless that religion works"?
 
2013-03-31 02:44:57 AM

Sensei Can You See: prgrmr: Also, statistically speaking, what's amazing isn't that they pulled cross-shaped steel beams from the WTC rubble; what's amazing is that they only pulled out one.

If memory serves, this is the cross in question. It wasn't just pulled from the rubble; it was standing at the top of a pile of rubble. Make of that what you will, but it is a rather striking image.

[thegopnet.com image 850x563]


That is a different cross, compare the two beams and it will become clearly evident.
 
2013-03-31 03:34:48 AM

Amos Quito: FTA: "September 11 "affected all Americans, not just Christians," Silverman continued. "We will not sit and let the 500 atheists who died on 9/11 go unnoticed."


How does Silverman know how many atheists died on 9/11?

Were they registered atheists?


Apparently.

 Of course, instead of finding a symbol in the wreckage that means something to atheists, he would rather ruin the christians symbol.

/Kinda like the kid on the beach who can't build a sand castle and decides to wreck another kids sand castle instead.
//dick.
 
2013-03-31 03:43:36 AM

Sensei Can You See: prgrmr: Also, statistically speaking, what's amazing isn't that they pulled cross-shaped steel beams from the WTC rubble; what's amazing is that they only pulled out one.

If memory serves, this is the cross in question. It wasn't just pulled from the rubble; it was standing at the top of a pile of rubble. Make of that what you will, but it is a rather striking image.

[thegopnet.com image 850x563]


This.

 I don't think anyone thinks the item itself is miraculous, but it did give them something to hold on to when their world was falling apart.

/being christian doesn't mean nothing bad will ever happen to you.
//jesus should be pretty much proof positive of that.
 
2013-03-31 04:24:44 AM

Marine1: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

In Heaven, of course. He got there after teaching mankind the sort of lessons we would need to avoid such tragedies. Of course, most don't listen, despite the fact that said teachings are applicable to a good number of life situations, whether you're Christian or not.


Okay, so your Jesus is in heaven. That doesn't alter the question you're avoiding. It's a question that's been asked for thousands of years to people like you, and for thousands of years you have responded with the same weak-sauce bullsh*t answers. It's intellectual cowardice.
 
2013-03-31 04:30:09 AM

REO-Weedwagon: Marine1: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

In Heaven, of course. He got there after teaching mankind the sort of lessons we would need to avoid such tragedies. Of course, most don't listen, despite the fact that said teachings are applicable to a good number of life situations, whether you're Christian or not.

Okay, so your Jesus is in heaven. That doesn't alter the question you're avoiding. It's a question that's been asked for thousands of years to people like you, and for thousands of years you have responded with the same weak-sauce bullsh*t answers. It's intellectual cowardice.


You sound mad
 
2013-03-31 04:43:55 AM

cuzsis: but it did give them something to hold on to when their world was falling apart


I sanctify this cross section of metal beams because it can relate to my religion of choice in the form of an iconic symbol. It gives me the strength to carry on in a situation where I'd otherwise collapse in unfathomable confusion and cry out to God about how this could happen. Seeing this here will let me know not to lose my faith in the chaos that surrounds me.

Anyone who needs a direct line with their god or can't take action without the help of the deity and/or puppets holding their hand is too weak for my world. If/when I rule the world said religions and their people will be purged.
 
2013-03-31 04:58:10 AM

Tenatra: cuzsis: but it did give them something to hold on to when their world was falling apart

I sanctify this cross section of metal beams because it can relate to my religion of choice in the form of an iconic symbol. It gives me the strength to carry on in a situation where I'd otherwise collapse in unfathomable confusion and cry out to God about how this could happen. Seeing this here will let me know not to lose my faith in the chaos that surrounds me.

Anyone who needs a direct line with their god or can't take action without the help of the deity and/or puppets holding their hand is too weak for my world. If/when I rule the world said religions and their people will be purged.


Oh looky, someone else volunteered to be god.
 
2013-03-31 05:00:24 AM
^ I plan on funding this idea through jesus fish and assorted trinkets. On the side I will be selling religious pamphlets, some guy gave me one last year and I noticed the price from the publisher... $2.00/each. He and his buddy had a stack of at least a couple hundred that were visible. Write some crap feel good crap and they will eat it up.
 
2013-03-31 07:52:05 AM

lokis_mentor: ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.

The problem with pastafarianism is that it doesn't have its own city. No Mecca, Jerusalem, Vatican, or Salt Lake City. You have to have a city if you want to be a legitimate religion.

Using that criteria Scientology is a legitimate religion.  They (mostly) own downtown Clearwater.


I was just in Clearwater on vacation and went to Clearwater Beach. You have to go through downtown on the way there. It's a pretty average looking downtown until you see the big ass building that is apparently the headquarters building for the "Church".

The precense of the Scientology give the rest of downtown Clearwater a weird vibe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Power_Building
 
2013-03-31 09:21:02 AM
Can I say that atheism is getting a little weird lately?

I don't want religion in schools.  And I understand why some people born in the bible belt or forced to go to Catholic school might be angry.

But atheism is that short of becoming a shrill counter religious movement to the mentally impared cultural conservatives that want the United States to become the Christian version of some middle-eastern countries.

/Becoming just as shrill as the people you are fighting does not help.
 
2013-03-31 09:51:32 AM

Truther: I agree - atheists are assholes.

/a lot of them anyway
//happy Easter you bastards!


And you enjoy your pagan festival of rebirth.
 
2013-03-31 11:37:31 AM
As an atheist, i could care less if this makes it into the museum. As long as it, or people worshipping it, don't take away from the learning in the museum.

To all the christian people saying atheists are assholes because of this small group of idiots, using your own logic:

You are way beyond assholes because westboro baptists are super d-bags and they are christians, so they represent you.

(I don't really think that, but way too JUDGE other people)
 
2013-03-31 12:33:44 PM

REO-Weedwagon: Marine1: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

In Heaven, of course. He got there after teaching mankind the sort of lessons we would need to avoid such tragedies. Of course, most don't listen, despite the fact that said teachings are applicable to a good number of life situations, whether you're Christian or not.

Okay, so your Jesus is in heaven. That doesn't alter the question you're avoiding. It's a question that's been asked for thousands of years to people like you, and for thousands of years you have responded with the same weak-sauce bullsh*t answers. It's intellectual cowardice.


Your argument is that God must be a helicopter parent or he can't exist.
 
2013-03-31 12:50:20 PM

REO-Weedwagon: Marine1: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

In Heaven, of course. He got there after teaching mankind the sort of lessons we would need to avoid such tragedies. Of course, most don't listen, despite the fact that said teachings are applicable to a good number of life situations, whether you're Christian or not.

Okay, so your Jesus is in heaven. That doesn't alter the question you're avoiding. It's a question that's been asked for thousands of years to people like you, and for thousands of years you have responded with the same weak-sauce bullsh*t answers. It's intellectual cowardice.


How's it a BS answer?

Sure, you could argue that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God would use superhero-like powers to stop some tragedy like that. On the other hand, you could argue that humans have been told by a higher power time and time again not to do things like the 9/11 attacks.
 
2013-03-31 12:51:09 PM

BarkingUnicorn: REO-Weedwagon: Marine1: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

In Heaven, of course. He got there after teaching mankind the sort of lessons we would need to avoid such tragedies. Of course, most don't listen, despite the fact that said teachings are applicable to a good number of life situations, whether you're Christian or not.

Okay, so your Jesus is in heaven. That doesn't alter the question you're avoiding. It's a question that's been asked for thousands of years to people like you, and for thousands of years you have responded with the same weak-sauce bullsh*t answers. It's intellectual cowardice.

Your argument is that God must be a helicopter parent or he can't exist.


You said it better than I could. Well done.
 
2013-03-31 12:51:45 PM
For Jesus so loved the victims of 9/11 that He allowed them to perish on that day. So let's put a cross up to commemorate how Jesus sat another one out.
 
2013-03-31 12:54:36 PM

Lando Lincoln: For Jesus so loved the victims of 9/11 that He allowed them to perish on that day. So let's put a cross up to commemorate how Jesus sat another one out.


Again... Jesus is a helicopter parent or He's just another dead Jewish guy?
 
2013-03-31 02:52:36 PM

Lando Lincoln: For Jesus so loved the victims of 9/11 that He allowed them to perish on that day. So let's put a cross up to commemorate how Jesus sat another one out.


There's another guy in here that has been trying to make that argument since yesterday. Youre a bit late to the trolling party.
 
2013-03-31 03:22:35 PM
I'm an athiest, and I think this was a dick move. You're not helping, angry litigious atheist dude.

This is a memorial; where religious symbols tend to be common.

Considering that this was part of the wreckage it is even more appropriate.
 
2013-03-31 09:40:39 PM
More nonsense to keep us from the truth.
 
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