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(CNN)   NY state court says that 9/11 Cross may be allowed in the memorial's museum. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, World Trade Center Cross, Judges' Rules, World Trade Center, A New York, American Atheists, Franciscans, museums  
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6073 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 5:36 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 07:33:05 PM  

jcooli09: I don't see it as an asshole move to try to block the inclusion of a christian symbol from the museum, but I do see the attempt at inclusion as an asshole move.


Oh for fark's sake. It's NOT about the "Christian symbol". It's about an iconic image that is important to a lot of people. And not important because it's a a cross. The assholes here are the people trying to block it. And the people defending the attempt.
 
2013-03-30 07:33:13 PM  
We could just slap one of those coexist bumper stickers I see on cars these days. They have almost everything.
 
2013-03-30 07:34:41 PM  

The Bestest: A judge may side with you today, but if his ruling comes to a chorus of boos, tomorrow a congressman proposes a law that reverses it.


Sure, and as long as the law is constitutional this could be upheld. My point is people should be offended not when organizations are quite public and proper in action but when officials are hidden and unscrupulous to corrupt in action.
 
2013-03-30 07:35:04 PM  
ronaprhys:Religion isn't responsible for the tragedy.  The primary reason for the tragedy is power, fueled by economics.  Religion is nothing more than the tool that the power-hungry types used to convince idiots to die for them.  That's like blaming the firearm for the killing when someone had to pull the trigger.

Kind of.  Religion poisons the mind into believe that faith (belief without evidence) is a virtue.  Belief without evidence is a bad idea by itself, but it also causes your brain to malfunction about other ideas, too. If believing without evidence is a virtue, then you can safely disregard good ideas and keep bad ones without any consideration of how those beliefs align with reality. You have cut the tether between evidence and reason to believe.  That's crazy-town.

If you need examples of what this looks like, view kurmudgeon's post above. He thinks that because people can't disprove his particular deity, it must be true.  He's either retarded, or doesn't understand the relationship between reality and belief. If the latter, good money says that religion made him that way.
 
2013-03-30 07:36:40 PM  

WI241TH: "We are confident that we will eventually win this case and that cross will be removed, or atheists will be allowed to have our own symbol in there," he said.

Why wasn't this the main goal in the first place?  It's an historical artifact and I have no problem with it being displayed in the museum so long as they're not denying all other symbols.


Couldn't find any spaghetti in the wreckage.
 
2013-03-30 07:37:40 PM  
If 'power poles' and anything "t" shaped make you upset, it's you.
 
2013-03-30 07:38:33 PM  

Vangor:  He appears to be missing the point.


Let's just fast forward to this.
 
2013-03-30 07:40:03 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: jcooli09: I don't see it as an asshole move to try to block the inclusion of a christian symbol from the museum, but I do see the attempt at inclusion as an asshole move.

Oh for fark's sake. It's NOT about the "Christian symbol". It's about an iconic image that is important to a lot of people. And not important because it's a a cross. The assholes here are the people trying to block it. And the people defending the attempt.


bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.
 
2013-03-30 07:40:05 PM  

wiredroach: I think it's entirely appropriate to include the cross of girders in the 9/11 museum. It's a stellar example of misguided religious thinking which reinforces unfounded superstition at the expense of rational thought.

The reason a cross was found in the wreckage at Ground Zero is because hundreds of thousands of such intersecting girders were used in the towers' construction. Structures are built at 90-degree angles because putting load-bearing structures perpendicular to the force of gravity is the strongest and most efficient method of construction.

It would have been a miracle if search teams hadn't found any cross-like shapes in the wreckage at Ground Zero.

People who find meaning in this artifact do so because they're attempting to retrofit the laws of physics into their religious belief systems. This nonsensical demand that the entire world conform to the religious preferences of some is what led to the attacks on the twin towers in the first place.

So it's a perfect metaphor for why the tragedy happened, and as long as there are people who see the welded intersection of two structural beams and regard it as a personal sign from God, there will be people willing to commit future 9/11s.


Meh.  I'll go with the theory that it's a subtle, ironic reminder of the Christian imperialism that caused the perfectly justified act of self-defense.
 
2013-03-30 07:41:12 PM  

jcooli09: Philip_CM: "The World Trade Center cross, two intersecting steel beams that held up when the twin towers collapsed on September 11, 2001, is seen as iconic to some."

So, you mean to tell me that American Atheists (and I'm agnostic, mind you) are throwing their hands in the air over what's to some the architectural equivalent of french toast Jesus, despite the fact that they're remnants of 9/11? That's an answer to a nonexistent problem if I've ever read one.

To me, it's offensive because the people who want it there want it as a symbol of their religion, despite the fact that the thing they wish to honor is largely responsible for the tragedy.



The museum exists to preserve the story of 9/11 for future generations. The beams and those that rallied around them are part of that story. Discarding it on the basis that it resembles an offensive symbol is akin to discarding anything with a Swastika from a Holocaust museum.
 
2013-03-30 07:42:15 PM  

eraser8: davidphogan: As far as the article, I'm an atheist, but the cross is part of the story.  It was well documented at the time, and is part of the history of 9/11.  I see no problem with it being in the museum.

Not sure whether that was just a throwaway line or not...but,  just in case you were under the impression I have some problem with the ruling, I'd like to point out that I have no objection to the inclusion of the "cross" or anything else.

It just doesn't matter to me.


Sorry for the confusion, I meant that as a separate thought from my duck rape response.
 
2013-03-30 07:43:00 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Vangor:  He appears to be missing the point.

Let's just fast forward to this.


Who are these people?
 
2013-03-30 07:43:34 PM  

jcooli09: bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.


So? Even supposing all of that, where is the harm?
 
2013-03-30 07:44:33 PM  

vabeard: Zeb Hesselgresser: Vangor:  He appears to be missing the point.

Let's just fast forward to this.

Who are these people?


This post went horribly wrong.
 
2013-03-30 07:45:05 PM  

Zeno-25: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 730x378]


I would put that image right next to the cross with a plaque that said "We hope your offended."
 
2013-03-30 07:45:32 PM  

theotherles: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

F*CK YES!

Where was your God over the last century when over a hundred million people were murdered by various so-called governments?


Y'all seem to think that noblesse oblige applies to God.  The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.  How could its Creator be?
 
2013-03-30 07:47:39 PM  

Allen262: I think it was pointed out when it came to nativity scenes on government/public property that all religions gets equal space or no nativity scenes on government/public property.

I see it as if one religious symbol is in that they all go in with equal space and/or size or the cross get booted out.


Whoever pointed that out hasn't read the SCOTUS decisions on the subject.
 
2013-03-30 07:49:56 PM  
this born-again pagan gives not a fark if there is a cross present
it is JUST a symbol
 
2013-03-30 07:49:59 PM  

The Bestest: jcooli09: bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.

So? Even supposing all of that, where is the harm?


the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.
 
2013-03-30 07:52:06 PM  

jcooli09: The Bestest: jcooli09: bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.

So? Even supposing all of that, where is the harm?

the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.


Symbols can convey different meanings to different viewers.  Take Tarot cards, for example.
 
2013-03-30 07:52:51 PM  

eraser8:  I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.


You know some ducks...

i47.tinypic.com
 
2013-03-30 07:54:40 PM  

REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?


This^∞.
 
2013-03-30 08:01:16 PM  

jcooli09: the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.


This is an example of anti-theism and just as bad as evangelism in my opinion. You are -imposing- your beliefs (or lack thereof) upon others and are the reason many atheists frown upon anti-theists due to the association.
 
2013-03-30 08:02:12 PM  

eraser8: Mugato: Jesus Christ, atheists can be assholes.

Any person can be an asshole.

Christians can be assholes.

Muslims can be assholes.

Hindus can be assholes.

Drinkers can be assholes.

Teetotalers can be assholes.

Men can be assholes.

Women can be assholes.

Hell, you don't even need to be human to be an asshole.  I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.


But obviously not the Jews....

/I keed..I'm an asshole.
 
2013-03-30 08:13:06 PM  

jcooli09: bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.


jcooli09: the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.


Damn, you're weak-minded.  And a dick.  First off, it's not your position to determine that this is a bad thing for the victims.

On top of that, to call a symbol of something you don't believe in obscene, just because you don't like it, shows you clearly don't know the meaning of the word.  Basically, you're no different than that pic of the angry kid with the caption, "quit liking what I don't like".
 
2013-03-30 08:13:13 PM  
How about just putting up a globe and saying we were all Farked. Maybe we should all shut up and see that the debate we are having about the cross  displayed is one of the many reasons we cannot  come to peace. Many want to make life in their own way and Fark the rest.  This is why we need to legalize weed.

Disclaimer: This post was not brought to you my the Cannabis  growers International nor any of the Cannabis  growers International  alliances.  Nor was it brought to you by any religious or non-religious organization.

Disclaimer II : This post is not intended by the poster, who has hiked way too much today and has filled his belly with beer, to be read by anyone..  That includes you!
 
2013-03-30 08:14:00 PM  

The Bestest: This is an example of anti-theism and just as bad as evangelism in my opinion. You are -imposing- your beliefs (or lack thereof) upon others and are the reason many atheists frown upon anti-theists due to the association.


Sorry, but we have the right to defend our society from the corrosive effects of superstition.  Deal with it, and get over it.
 
2013-03-30 08:15:04 PM  

REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?


LOL STUPID 9/11 VICTIMS, WHERE IS YOUR SKY FAIRY NOW?!? You are right, no Christian in two thousand years has ever tried to offer an explanation for why bad things happen to good people, or even noticed that it happens in the first place. In fact, your question is so original that you may well be the greatest genius in world history.
 
2013-03-30 08:16:45 PM  
I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."
 
2013-03-30 08:20:22 PM  

Man On Pink Corner: The Bestest: This is an example of anti-theism and just as bad as evangelism in my opinion. You are -imposing- your beliefs (or lack thereof) upon others and are the reason many atheists frown upon anti-theists due to the association.

Sorry, but we have the right to defend our society from the corrosive effects of superstition.  Deal with it, and get over it.


It's not only your society.  I'm  an atheist, and I don't want your defense.  It sucks balls.

It's kinda funny:  Jesus thought he had the right to get everyone's sins forgiven.
 
2013-03-30 08:20:47 PM  

JeffreyScott: I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."


I am OK with this
 
2013-03-30 08:21:44 PM  

Man On Pink Corner: The Bestest: This is an example of anti-theism and just as bad as evangelism in my opinion. You are -imposing- your beliefs (or lack thereof) upon others and are the reason many atheists frown upon anti-theists due to the association.

Sorry, but we have the right to defend our society from the corrosive effects of superstition.  Deal with it, and get over it.


And there's nothing like the random crossing of two beams surviving to make people suddenly start flocking to Westboro Baptist.

Idiot.  Seriously.  Fight the corrosive effects - but this isn't one of them.  This will encourage no more nor less hate.
 
2013-03-30 08:21:55 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: You are right, no Christian in two thousand years has ever tried to offer an explanation for why bad things happen to good people, or even noticed that it happens in the first place.


Well, no Christian has ever come up with one that made any sense. Which is kinda the same thing.
 
2013-03-30 08:22:30 PM  

Man On Pink Corner: Sorry, but we have the right to defend our society from the corrosive effects of superstition.  Deal with it, and get over it.


There's a huge, HUGE difference between defending against religion infringing upon one's rights and infringing upon one's freedom of religion.
 
2013-03-30 08:25:19 PM  

ronaprhys: jcooli09: bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.

jcooli09: the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.

Damn, you're weak-minded.  And a dick.  First off, it's not your position to determine that this is a bad thing for the victims.

On top of that, to call a symbol of something you don't believe in obscene, just because you don't like it, shows you clearly don't know the meaning of the word.  Basically, you're no different than that pic of the angry kid with the caption, "quit liking what I don't like".


Just because you can't understand what I'm saying is no reason to get so upset, Nancy.
 
2013-03-30 08:26:06 PM  
I often hear from the religious  that 'atheism is a religion'. Fine, so would there be any objection to a shrine remembering, specifically, the atheists who died in the attack? Like a plate of spaghetti or a teapot?
 
2013-03-30 08:27:25 PM  

jcooli09: the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.



So if someone holds a different opinion of something, it should be censored?

In that case, I view the National Mall as one big porn-fest. The Washington Monument is an obvious phallic symbol , the capitol building has a boob on top, the reflecting pool is a... well that should be obvious, especially given it's proximity to the Washington Monument.

So, would you support a move to de-pornify our nation's capitol and remove these offensive images from public view? Or are offensive icons only meant to be censored when you're the one being offended?
 
2013-03-30 08:27:43 PM  

jcooli09: Some Bass Playing Guy: jcooli09: I don't see it as an asshole move to try to block the inclusion of a christian symbol from the museum, but I do see the attempt at inclusion as an asshole move.

Oh for fark's sake. It's NOT about the "Christian symbol". It's about an iconic image that is important to a lot of people. And not important because it's a a cross. The assholes here are the people trying to block it. And the people defending the attempt.

bullshiat.  People want it there because they see it as their god.  Most of them will see it as a beautiful reaffirmation of their faith, but that's the very fantasy that made it possible.  It's obscene.


You're one of THOSE atheists, then. ?
 
2013-03-30 08:30:25 PM  

jcooli09: Just because you can't understand what I'm saying is no reason to get so upset, Nancy.


Understanding what you're saying is very easy to do.  Unfortunately for you, it's not anything original, intelligent, or particularly well thought out.

Quit liking what I don't like.
 
2013-03-30 08:30:25 PM  

cman: Its people like you that give people like me a bad name.

Lets take a look at this shall we?

Are they forcing you to pray at the base of the cross? Are they forcing you to admit the existence of God? Are they even using verses from the bible?



Using that logic, putting a huge cross on public land in front of every courthouse in the country should be okay.
 
2013-03-30 08:33:27 PM  

Man On Pink Corner: Sorry, but we have the right to defend our society from the corrosive effects of superstition.  Deal with it, and get over it.


Some of the "corrosive effects" of Christianity have included great works of art, extensive charitable endeavours, and moral campaigns such as the abolition of slavery in the British Empire. You can't indict religion for the bad things done in its name while throwing out the good things: that is hypocrisy. Besides, when it comes to slaughter the Christians were amateurs compared to those following the avowedly atheist totalitarian system of Communism, whose death toll has amounted to upward of eighty million in one century alone (and they didn't even produce an equivalent to Bach, Michelangelo, or Dante).

The problem is not with religion as such but with man's propensity to hold irrational beliefs and to want to use them to dominate his neighbours, and this can also manifest itself in secular ways: political ideologies serve the same purpose for most people nowadays as faith did for our ancestors. You only have to read a political discussion on Fark to see how many commenters around here treat politics as a substitute religion giving their lives meaning, and with its own corresponding ideas of original sin (white guilt), the lost paradise (the pre- industrial and/or tribal and/or aboriginal and/or matriarchal way of life), the division of humanity into the saved and damned (those who are part of the problem (conservatives) and those who are part of the solution(left- liberals)), and the promised utopia of the future that will arrive once the enemies of goodness have been gotten out of the way (a carbon- free future, perhaps, a de-industrialized world, a one- world government, or whatever else strikes their fancy). Much like Christians, too, politically- minded people tend to lash out viciously at those who question their dogma: and if you doubt it, just watch the replies to this post!
 
2013-03-30 08:33:53 PM  

the ha ha guy: jcooli09: the harm is that it tends to reinforce the lie that is religion.  It'll be honored and worshipped where it should be reviled.  It's a big green loogie in the eye of the victims, and increases the probability that it'll happen again.

If it's included it should be for it's irony, the symbol of the cause of the tragedy being loved so much by so many of those who survived.


So if someone holds a different opinion of something, it should be censored?

In that case, I view the National Mall as one big porn-fest. The Washington Monument is an obvious phallic symbol , the capitol building has a boob on top, the reflecting pool is a... well that should be obvious, especially given it's proximity to the Washington Monument.

So, would you support a move to de-pornify our nation's capitol and remove these offensive images from public view? Or are offensive icons only meant to be censored when you're the one being offended?


porn is much less damaging than religion, so I'm ok with it.  How about you?

Also, porn wasn't designed as a way to control weak minded or frightened people.  It's also much less pervasive in the world, and doesn't try to convert or destroy those that don't submit to it.
 
2013-03-30 08:33:53 PM  

Jeep2011: JeffreyScott: I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."

I am OK with this


I dunno, that's a pretty stupid stance and screams "I have no clue what I'm talking about." Someone already mentioned Free Will and the fact that God never said he would protect mankind from all the evils we insist upon inflicting on ourselves; that side of God ended with The Garden of Eden. (If you believe Jewish Tradition)

I appreciate all of the Atheists who have come out and stated their opposition to this suit and could care less if the cross is in the museum. Anything I say further goes towards the tantrum throwing children who claim to represent your side in the theological debate.

The cross represents a symbol that many people drew strength, courage, and a sense of hope from in a time of great tragedy. Nobody made it, crafted it and planted it there, it happened by coincidence and was adopted as a symbol of all that is good in "Faith". Of course it deserves to be in the museum, and no, an Atheist, Hindu, Budhist or any other type of religious symbol does not need to be added; as far as I know, they weren't there being latched on to by tons of people.

Anyone who has a problem with this because it "represents religion" is childlike in the sense that they are carrying a stupid, pointless and huge chip on their shoulder that will only serve to make their own lives miserable, and other innocents lives miserable through collateral damage. Grow the fark up.
 
2013-03-30 08:37:34 PM  

3rdtimearound: I often hear from the religious  that 'atheism is a religion'. Fine, so would there be any objection to a shrine remembering, specifically, the atheists who died in the attack? Like a plate of spaghetti or a teapot?


People who say that also stretch the definition of "racism" until it's useless. Ignore them.
 
2013-03-30 08:37:34 PM  
I really pity all the anti-theists in this thread with so much apparent hate in their hearts. Do they really think if all the world's religions went away we'd suddenly be in a Star Trek communistic utopia? Kindness to your fellow man is a learned trait. Being honest and expecting others to be honest with you is mutually beneficial in the long run. If that kindness is generated by their faith in a god, or from just an intellectual understanding of how to fit into society, it should be celebrated. Point out evil where you see it, not the hate against someone who believes something you don't. It isn't worth your time and has no benefit.
 
2013-03-30 08:39:31 PM  

CanisNoir: Jeep2011: JeffreyScott: I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."

I am OK with this

I dunno, that's a pretty stupid stance and screams "I have no clue what I'm talking about." Someone already mentioned Free Will and the fact that God never said he would protect mankind from all the evils we insist upon inflicting on ourselves; that side of God ended with The Garden of Eden. (If you believe Jewish Tradition)

I appreciate all of the Atheists who have come out and stated their opposition to this suit and could care less if the cross is in the museum. Anything I say further goes towards the tantrum throwing children who claim to represent your side in the theological debate.

The cross represents a symbol that many people drew strength, courage, and a sense of hope from in a time of great tragedy. Nobody made it, crafted it and planted it there, it happened by coincidence and was adopted as a symbol of all that is good in "Faith". Of course it deserves to be in the museum, and no, an Atheist, Hindu, Budhist or any other type of religious symbol does not need to be added; as far as I know, they weren't there being latched on to by tons of people.

Anyone who has a problem with this because it "represents religion" is childlike in the sense that they are carrying a stupid, pointless and huge chip on their shoulder that will only serve to make their own lives miserable, and other innocents lives miserable through collateral damage. Grow the fark up.


The only thing that I'd say to dispute this is that if the religious symbol for any other religion had happened to show up like this one did (which is unlikely, given the complexities of most symbols - this one happens to be damned easy to come up randomly), then they'd deserve to be included if they brought similar comfort.  For example, say there had been an art exhibit and a huge menorah had managed to live through the carnage, completely unscathed, then I'd say it should be included.
 
2013-03-30 08:42:00 PM  

CanisNoir: Jeep2011: JeffreyScott: I think it should be included with a sign at the bottom that states,

"This cross is place here so you can remember your all knowing, all seeing, all powerful God sat back and did nothing to stop the attack or the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.  Hell, he didn't even delay it so the people could exit the building safely.  Either he is a utter and complete asshole or he doesn't exist.  Either way you should stop worshiping him."

I am OK with this

I dunno, that's a pretty stupid stance and screams "I have no clue what I'm talking about." Someone already mentioned Free Will and the fact that God never said he would protect mankind from all the evils we insist upon inflicting on ourselves; that side of God ended with The Garden of Eden. (If you believe Jewish Tradition)

I appreciate all of the Atheists who have come out and stated their opposition to this suit and could care less if the cross is in the museum. Anything I say further goes towards the tantrum throwing children who claim to represent your side in the theological debate.

The cross represents a symbol that many people drew strength, courage, and a sense of hope from in a time of great tragedy. Nobody made it, crafted it and planted it there, it happened by coincidence and was adopted as a symbol of all that is good in "Faith". Of course it deserves to be in the museum, and no, an Atheist, Hindu, Budhist or any other type of religious symbol does not need to be added; as far as I know, they weren't there being latched on to by tons of people.

Anyone who has a problem with this because it "represents religion" is childlike in the sense that they are carrying a stupid, pointless and huge chip on their shoulder that will only serve to make their own lives miserable, and other innocents lives miserable through collateral damage. Grow the fark up.


I agree. As an atheist, I stay out of these issues - because it means nothing to me. I would much rather see members of other faiths deal with it - like having a Muslim demand a crescent be placed right next to the cross.
Just for the entertainment value, you understand. You'd support that, right? I mean what with you being a grownup, and all.
 
2013-03-30 08:42:16 PM  

jcooli09: porn is much less damaging than religion, so I'm ok with it.  How about you?



You don't find it offensive therefore it's fine? Thanks for proving my point.

To answer your question, I would argue that there are more people in the US who find porn offensive than there are who find religious icons offensive.

So my question is, what makes your right to not be offended greater than the right of others to not be offended? Why should the ground-zero cross be erased from history while enormous genitalia is glorified and printed on our money?
 
2013-03-30 08:43:15 PM  

wiredroach: EvilRacistNaziFascist: You are right, no Christian in two thousand years has ever tried to offer an explanation for why bad things happen to good people, or even noticed that it happens in the first place.

Well, no Christian has ever come up with one that made any sense. Which is kinda the same thing.


They may not have come up with one you could agree with, and that's understandable; I can't honestly say I believe it myself. But then again, consider the atheist alternative, which is to say that bad things happen to good people because the universe is indifferent to us to the point of letting us suffer and die for even the most pointless reason, and it's because life sucks and there's not a goddamn thing we can do about that. I can well understand why people would prefer to believe in a complicated story involving a cosmic bet involving God and Satan instead. In the end, whatever theory we adopt (whether religious or atheist) isn't going to change the fact that life is short and that each of us is going to die, so I don't begrudge anyone their consolations in the meantime. It'd be a good thing if you keyboard warriors with your LOL SKY WIZARD schtick could keep in mind that hope is the rarest and most precious of all human commodities, especially to those who suffer, grieve, are seriously ill, etc.
 
2013-03-30 08:43:26 PM  

ronaprhys: jcooli09: Just because you can't understand what I'm saying is no reason to get so upset, Nancy.

Understanding what you're saying is very easy to do.  Unfortunately for you, it's not anything original, intelligent, or particularly well thought out.

Quit liking what I don't like.


clearly it allows you to feels superior, I guess that's something.

Religion isn't about god, it's about control and marketing.  This is marketing and that doesn't deserve to be enshrined.
 
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