If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CNN)   NY state court says that 9/11 Cross may be allowed in the memorial's museum. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (cnn.com) divider line 299
    More: Obvious, World Trade Center Cross, Judges' Rules, World Trade Center, A New York, American Atheists, Franciscans, museums  
•       •       •

6059 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 5:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



299 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-03-30 06:19:32 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-30 06:19:40 PM  

zamboni: Walker: [img.photobucket.com image 400x300]
I'm an atheist and I don't even give a f*ck.

Amen!

Seems silly to attach any significance whatsoever to a cross that survived the 9/11 collapse of two buildings made out of crosses... but hey... seems silly to get worked up enough to try to exclude it from a 9/11 museum.


Some atheists are like some gun folk: there is no middle ground, there are no sensible options, battle must be joined At All Costs. Slippery slope and all that. I'm a little more sympathetic to the gun argument, seeing a steady ratcheting effect toward guns with 7 bullets, 6 ...5...4...3...2...1 then no bullets. But no background checks? That's a tough case to make, IMO.
 
2013-03-30 06:21:36 PM  

wiredroach: I think it's entirely appropriate to include the cross of girders in the 9/11 museum. It's a stellar example of misguided religious thinking which reinforces unfounded superstition at the expense of rational thought.

The reason a cross was found in the wreckage at Ground Zero is because hundreds of thousands of such intersecting girders were used in the towers' construction. Structures are built at 90-degree angles because putting load-bearing structures perpendicular to the force of gravity is the strongest and most efficient method of construction.

It would have been a miracle if search teams hadn't found any cross-like shapes in the wreckage at Ground Zero.

People who find meaning in this artifact do so because they're attempting to retrofit the laws of physics into their religious belief systems. This nonsensical demand that the entire world conform to the religious preferences of some is what led to the attacks on the twin towers in the first place.

So it's a perfect metaphor for why the tragedy happened, and as long as there are people who see the welded intersection of two structural beams and regard it as a personal sign from God, there will be people willing to commit future 9/11s.


This.

If your god loved you so much, why did he allow infidels to do this? He can say "I'm here" by leaving one part of the structure almost intact, but lets thousands of believers die a horrible, fiery death.

Or maybe it's a sign of a false god...
 
2013-03-30 06:21:54 PM  

redmid17: ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.

The problem with pastafarianism is that it doesn't have its own city. No Mecca, Jerusalem, Vatican, or Salt Lake City. You have to have a city if you want to be a legitimate religion.

Voiceofreason01: Sounds like someone has confused secularism with anti-theism.

They can take Detroit. Not only would no one notice, no one would care if they did.


Hell. Canada took Detroit 200 years ago and gave it back.
 
2013-03-30 06:23:27 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?
 
2013-03-30 06:26:05 PM  

YoOjo: It's only a shape.

/agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.


*Heavy sigh*

Whatever floats your boat.

/Atheist, because I don't believe.
 
2013-03-30 06:29:42 PM  

Ego edo infantia cattus: YoOjo: It's only a shape.

/agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.

*Heavy sigh*

Whatever floats your boat.

/Atheist, because I don't believe.


there's a difference between gnostic athiesm and agnostic athiesm
 
2013-03-30 06:31:34 PM  
LEST WE FORGET!
cdn.buzznet.com
 
2013-03-30 06:32:09 PM  

Ego edo infantia cattus: YoOjo: It's only a shape.

/agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.

*Heavy sigh*

Whatever floats your boat.

/Atheist, because I don't believe.


I used to think/believe I was atheist, then I heard Tig Notaro (or someone talking to her) say that it infers a belief that there definitely isn't anything to believe in and they identified as agnostic instead.
As I really don't care or want to know about anything spiritual I thought that maybe I was agnostic too.
Then I mentioned it on Fark because I remembered something about it for some reason. But I soon stopped caring again and moved onto better things to think about.
 
2013-03-30 06:32:50 PM  
Atheist or no, the purpose of the museum is to commemorate what happened, and what happened in that crisis was that many people turned to God for answers, the cross, a symbol not created by the state for that, was the symbol that many turned to when turning to God. Not believing in God isn't a rational reason for editing history to make it seem as though those who were there, or the families of those who were there, did not believe in God. History is what it is, not what we want it to be. Having the 9/11 cross in a museum is no more of an endorsement of religion than having whips and chains in a museum is an endorsement of slavery.

History is an unbalanced, unfair biatch... "correcting" it to be more inclusive, less abrasive, more or less bad than it was is a disservice to everyone, regardless of their perspective with respect to that history.
 
2013-03-30 06:35:33 PM  

YoOjo: It's only a shape.

/agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.


/apathetic, because agnosticism is too much like giving a fark.
 
2013-03-30 06:37:44 PM  

REO-Weedwagon: Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?


I always thought this was a silly argument. God supposedly gave man free will. Free will can be a dangerous thing. I don't recall God saying that he will save people from death on earth, only that of you believe in him that you will be saved and go to heaven. If you believe that sort of thing.

/not particularly religious
 
2013-03-30 06:38:27 PM  

REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?


F*CK YES!

Where was your God over the last century when over a hundred million people were murdered by various so-called governments?
 
2013-03-30 06:39:09 PM  
"The World Trade Center cross, two intersecting steel beams that held up when the twin towers collapsed on September 11, 2001, is seen as iconic to some."

So, you mean to tell me that American Atheists (and I'm agnostic, mind you) are throwing their hands in the air over what's to some the architectural equivalent of french toast Jesus, despite the fact that they're remnants of 9/11? That's an answer to a nonexistent problem if I've ever read one.
 
2013-03-30 06:39:46 PM  

YoOjo: /agnostic, because atheism is too much like having a belief.


I'm an atheist and an agnostic.  My agnosticism doesn't change the fact that I do not believe in a god or gods.  That is, it doesn't change the fact that I'm an atheist.

For example, I'm also agnostic with respect to unicorns.  That doesn't mean that I'm on the fence as to whether unicorns exist. It just means that I can't be entirely, beyond doubt certain that they don't exist somewhere in the Universe. But, I'm certainly "atheist" (not quite the right word, I'll admit) in that I do not believe that unicorns are real.

As a wise man said, agnosticism is not some middle ground between "believing X" and "believing not X."

Agnosticism is about knowledge.  It's perfectly compatible with atheism or theism or with any other belief you might have.
 
2013-03-30 06:41:51 PM  

skozlaw: Ennuipoet: evangelical atheists

What really annoys me is that they're completely full of nothing.


Hey.... pointless stupid rage and pathological self importance are something.

Religion is the idea that love is alive.
Atheism is the idea that love is a lie.

(Expect the crazy-hate to start in 3...2...)
 
2013-03-30 06:43:34 PM  
"We are confident that we will eventually win this case and that cross will be removed, or atheists will be allowed to have our own symbol in there," he said.

Atheists don't have symbols. FSM doesn't count.
 
2013-03-30 06:45:23 PM  
Believer or not, atheist or not, everyone remembers the stupid cross. Yes, it's stupid as hell (what are the odds that in a 110-story building, two beams would intersect at a right angle??!)

However, retarded as it is, it was totally iconic of that very important time in our history. At such, it has major cultural relevance, and therefore, it belongs in the goddamn museum.

NEXT.
 
2013-03-30 06:45:51 PM  
Atheism is a Religion.
 
2013-03-30 06:47:21 PM  

eraser8: Mugato: Jesus Christ, atheists can be assholes.

Any person can be an asshole.

Christians can be assholes.

Muslims can be assholes.

Hindus can be assholes.

Drinkers can be assholes.

Teetotalers can be assholes.

Men can be assholes.

Women can be assholes.

Hell, you don't even need to be human to be an asshole.  I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.


I'd be a lot more willing to identify myself as one of you, Atheists, if you weren't such dicks. Even your defense is not, "atheists aren't dicks," it's, "christians are too."

Guess what? You're still dicks.
 
2013-03-30 06:47:35 PM  

REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?


Checking ID and stamping hands for the bar upstairs.
 
2013-03-30 06:47:37 PM  
Maybe the cross was God's "I was here", when his divine plan killed all those people.
 
2013-03-30 06:55:06 PM  

The Bestest: Vangor: Still, cannot fault the American Atheists for undertaking this because each case helps better establish the lines. Considering the sheer amount of First Amendment violations which are undertaken each year and have continued for decades without opposition, such legal cases require some protracted fighting.

I disagree. Picking the wrong battles absolutely can end up doing more harm to your cause than good. It's why half the crap the NAACP does infuriates me.


I do not understand why legal battles such as this would infuriate anyone. The NAACP and AA are not elected officials and are working in a transparent manner within the scope of current laws to establish legal interpretation. What should infuriate everyone is when elected officials attempt to subvert the system away from public views to impose religious belief or lack of belief on others.

Further, the battle of minds is always a slow one which requires personal experience to change. This will not make anyone dislike atheists more, simply support a previously held notion. Time will sway minds as more and more people meet more and more people who are more and more open to being identified as atheists, and the only way to slow this is for politicians and officials to slide in establishments.
 
2013-03-30 06:55:13 PM  

flup: Believer or not, atheist or not, everyone remembers the stupid cross. Yes, it's stupid as hell (what are the odds that in a 110-story building, two beams would intersect at a right angle??!)

However, retarded as it is, it was totally iconic of that very important time in our history. At such, it has major cultural relevance, and therefore, it belongs in the goddamn museum.

NEXT.


Quit being rational.  This is where the butthurt come to complain.

Igor Jakovsky: REO-Weedwagon: Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

I always thought this was a silly argument. God supposedly gave man free will. Free will can be a dangerous thing. I don't recall God saying that he will save people from death on earth, only that of you believe in him that you will be saved and go to heaven. If you believe that sort of thing.

/not particularly religious


It really is a stupid argument made by the weak-minded.  It's like a bumper sticker - if you believe what you're expressing, you think it'll show someone you're clever.  It doesn't.
 
2013-03-30 06:55:37 PM  

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.


Man... took you long enough.

I was beginning to think that you took the weekend off... like jesus.
 
2013-03-30 06:58:18 PM  
As an Atheist Orthodox who saw the towers fall and worked as a translator for families who lost loved ones that day, I must say fark some of my fellow atheists!  Atheism doesn't mean against religion, a-holes!  People are just as free to worship as I am to not do so.  To me, that cross represents the spirit of the city and those working at ground zero.  And although I don't believe in any deities  if you were to put that cross right outside my door, I would make sure to place a flower by its feet every time I walked by it.
 
2013-03-30 06:59:37 PM  

eraser8: I know some ducks who are complete (metaphorical) jackasses.


Well, ducks are the first non-human animal that was documented to perform gang rape.

As far as the article, I'm an atheist, but the cross is part of the story.  It was well documented at the time, and is part of the history of 9/11.  I see no problem with it being in the museum.
 
2013-03-30 07:01:22 PM  
God really stepped up that day. Without that cross, 9/11 would have been a real tragedy.
 
2013-03-30 07:02:32 PM  

Vangor: I do not understand why legal battles such as this would infuriate anyone.


..because to a certain extent, the laws we get are a result of popular opinion. If you undermine your own image by chasing windmills, people are less sympathetic to your cause when you have to defend something worthwhile, yet unpopular. A judge may side with you today, but if his ruling comes to a chorus of boos, tomorrow a congressman proposes a law that reverses it.
 
2013-03-30 07:04:35 PM  
I'm an atheist and this doesn't bother me. Many historical works of art have come from religious artifice. Does Silverman think the Rennaissance paintings of the Madonna with Jesus don't belong in a museum?
 
2013-03-30 07:05:55 PM  

flup: I'd be a lot more willing to identify myself as one of you, Atheists, if you weren't such dicks.


And, maybe people would be more willing to identify as Color blind/Jewish/Lesbian/of the Austrian economic school if they weren't such dicks.

flup: Even your defense is not, "atheists aren't dicks," it's, "christians are too."


My post wasn't a "defense" of anyone.

I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of saying, "atheists can be assholes ."

That is, there's no point in that claim; it conveys nothing concrete.  The term "atheists" could have been swapped out for literally any other group and the statement would be just as accurate.
 
2013-03-30 07:06:17 PM  
I'm an atheist, and I say let the cross be there. When are these idiots going to realize they sound just as bad?
 
2013-03-30 07:07:31 PM  
Sigh- another atheist here who wants to ditto "You're Not Helping"

There are important battles to fight to keep religion out of various places, and this just isn't one of them.  It became an important symbol to many people after 9/11, and obviously belongs in any museum devoted to that day.  Is the next target removing all the Stars of David from the Holocaust Museum?
 
2013-03-30 07:07:43 PM  

jaytkay: God really stepped up that day. Without that cross, 9/11 would have been a real tragedy.


They see me trollin', they hatin'
 
2013-03-30 07:07:56 PM  
This is the hill atheists should die on. Keep that cross out at all costs.

It may give you the warm and fuzzies to see it, but the human race needs to grow up. There is no Santa, Billy.

This far, no further!
 
2013-03-30 07:08:21 PM  
I'm an atheist and I do get worked up about some shiat.

This doesn't bother me in the slightest. It was a symbol that brought comfort and meaning to some, wasn't created after the fact or anything, and is completely appropriate to include in a museum.

And militant atheists don't bother me nearly as much as militant religious folk; generally only one of those will advocate killing you...though both may WANT to. ;)

But yeah, wrong battle...totally.
 
2013-03-30 07:08:48 PM  

davidphogan: As far as the article, I'm an atheist, but the cross is part of the story.  It was well documented at the time, and is part of the history of 9/11.  I see no problem with it being in the museum.


Not sure whether that was just a throwaway line or not...but,  just in case you were under the impression I have some problem with the ruling, I'd like to point out that I have no objection to the inclusion of the "cross" or anything else.

It just doesn't matter to me.
 
2013-03-30 07:09:05 PM  
Not having the government endorse any religion does not mean you get to banish all signs of religion from public view, you twits. This crap only makes people more hostile towards those of us atheists who don't care what anyone believes. I just regard religion as an interesting part of our varied American culture.
 
2013-03-30 07:18:59 PM  

Philip_CM: "The World Trade Center cross, two intersecting steel beams that held up when the twin towers collapsed on September 11, 2001, is seen as iconic to some."

So, you mean to tell me that American Atheists (and I'm agnostic, mind you) are throwing their hands in the air over what's to some the architectural equivalent of french toast Jesus, despite the fact that they're remnants of 9/11? That's an answer to a nonexistent problem if I've ever read one.


To me, it's offensive because the people who want it there want it as a symbol of their religion, despite the fact that the thing they wish to honor is largely responsible for the tragedy.
 
2013-03-30 07:22:14 PM  

firefly212: Atheist or no, the purpose of the museum is to commemorate what happened, and what happened in that crisis was that many people turned to God for answers, the cross, a symbol not created by the state for that, was the symbol that many turned to when turning to God. Not believing in God isn't a rational reason for editing history to make it seem as though those who were there, or the families of those who were there, did not believe in God. History is what it is, not what we want it to be. Having the 9/11 cross in a museum is no more of an endorsement of religion than having whips and chains in a museum is an endorsement of slavery.

History is an unbalanced, unfair biatch... "correcting" it to be more inclusive, less abrasive, more or less bad than it was is a disservice to everyone, regardless of their perspective with respect to that history.


^This.

Plus to those who say w/o religion, people would be nicer to each other?  No they wouldn't; they'd just find other excuses for the beastliness, because that's how human nature works.  Not all atheists are compassionate, tolerant intellectuals and not all believers are vile, bigoted idiots.  Most people are a fairly even mix of good characteristics and bad ones, slightly weighted toward the good.  At either end of the spectrum are people who are either really good or totally shiatty.

/Atheist of the Einstein variety: I can't prove there is no god, but I think it's extremely unlikely.  I'll find out for sure when I die.
 
2013-03-30 07:25:20 PM  

theotherles: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

F*CK YES!

Where was your God over the last century when over a hundred million people were murdered by various so-called governments?


img204.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-30 07:25:35 PM  

The Bestest: Vangor: Still, cannot fault the American Atheists for undertaking this because each case helps better establish the lines. Considering the sheer amount of First Amendment violations which are undertaken each year and have continued for decades without opposition, such legal cases require some protracted fighting.

I disagree. Picking the wrong battles absolutely can end up doing more harm to your cause than good. It's why half the crap the NAACP does infuriates me.



Man are you kidding I love March Madness
 
2013-03-30 07:26:17 PM  
Why are the atheists who file these type of lawsuits as well as usually being the ones who scream, "OMG! We are being oppressed" on top of their media soap boxes are almost always rich, straight, white men?

Is it this desire of wanting to be part of the oppression train? Because if you aren't being held down by "The Man," you are "The Man?"
 
2013-03-30 07:26:25 PM  
I think it was pointed out when it came to nativity scenes on government/public property that all religions gets equal space or no nativity scenes on government/public property.

I see it as if one religious symbol is in that they all go in with equal space and/or size or the cross get booted out.
 
2013-03-30 07:26:48 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: I bet the heat and kinetic energy of the collapse left some mangled steel beams strewn about like a spaghetti monster.

The problem with pastafarianism is that it doesn't have its own city. No Mecca, Jerusalem, Vatican, or Salt Lake City. You have to have a city if you want to be a legitimate religion.


How about Des Moines Iowa? I hear they are up for being a Holy City. Just leave Pittsburgh alone...we already have the Steeler religion.
 
2013-03-30 07:27:00 PM  

jcooli09: Philip_CM: "The World Trade Center cross, two intersecting steel beams that held up when the twin towers collapsed on September 11, 2001, is seen as iconic to some."

So, you mean to tell me that American Atheists (and I'm agnostic, mind you) are throwing their hands in the air over what's to some the architectural equivalent of french toast Jesus, despite the fact that they're remnants of 9/11? That's an answer to a nonexistent problem if I've ever read one.

To me, it's offensive because the people who want it there want it as a symbol of their religion, despite the fact that the thing they wish to honor is largely responsible for the tragedy.


Religion isn't responsible for the tragedy.  The primary reason for the tragedy is power, fueled by economics.  Religion is nothing more than the tool that the power-hungry types used to convince idiots to die for them.  That's like blaming the firearm for the killing when someone had to pull the trigger.
 
2013-03-30 07:27:16 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: theotherles: REO-Weedwagon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 344x400]

Let the cross stand as a monument to the question every Jesus-worshiper avoids: Where was your omnipotent, all-powerful, all-loving Jesus when 3,000 people were murdered?

F*CK YES!

Where was your God over the last century when over a hundred million people were murdered by various so-called governments?

[img204.imageshack.us image 640x480]


That image is going to haunt my dreams. Thanks.
 
2013-03-30 07:30:13 PM  

Krymson Tyde: Atheist asshole trifecta in play.

Good job, assholes.


ct.fra.bz
 
2013-03-30 07:31:41 PM  
What's the big farking deal?
 
2013-03-30 07:32:27 PM  

ronaprhys: jcooli09: Philip_CM: "The World Trade Center cross, two intersecting steel beams that held up when the twin towers collapsed on September 11, 2001, is seen as iconic to some."

So, you mean to tell me that American Atheists (and I'm agnostic, mind you) are throwing their hands in the air over what's to some the architectural equivalent of french toast Jesus, despite the fact that they're remnants of 9/11? That's an answer to a nonexistent problem if I've ever read one.

To me, it's offensive because the people who want it there want it as a symbol of their religion, despite the fact that the thing they wish to honor is largely responsible for the tragedy.

Religion isn't responsible for the tragedy.  The primary reason for the tragedy is power, fueled by economics.  Religion is nothing more than the tool that the power-hungry types used to convince idiots to die for them.  That's like blaming the firearm for the killing when someone had to pull the trigger.


that's a cop out, just like the gun argument.  Religion feeds the us against them mentality, yes it's a tool but it's a tool that is too easily used by too many.  If it held less power there would be fewer dead bodies, just like guns.

Guns and religion should both be legal, but they should also bring shame to those who use them as a crutch against their fear.
 
Displayed 50 of 299 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report