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(WFAA Fort Worth)   Traditional Catholics are outraged that Pope Francis is returning the church to traditional Christianity   (wfaa.com) divider line 107
    More: Obvious, Pope Francis, conservative Catholics, Christianity, traditional Christianity, Vatican II, liturgy, Catholic Church, church law  
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15544 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 3:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-30 11:44:50 AM  
19 votes:
Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.
2013-03-30 12:26:24 PM  
11 votes:
FTA:  Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church. ...Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

Good.
2013-03-30 03:52:55 PM  
7 votes:

NutWrench: "If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?


I get the feeling that anyone who calls women "females" really doesn't like women.

That's a word that should be reserved for veterinarians and biologists.
2013-03-30 04:39:12 PM  
6 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


The ironic part is that pretty much sums up Christ's teachings while on Earth. The other stuff before and after is all just tacked on bullcrap from other people.

nhne-pulse.org
2013-03-30 04:27:33 PM  
6 votes:

Forbidden Doughnut: What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x427]


You're confusing "Conservative" with "Traditional".
They are far from the same thing. Although the conservatives like to claim they are traditionalist, the conservative Catholic movement - like the conservative evangelical movement- is a relatively new phenomena. Opus Dei is less than 100 years old and has only been recognized by the Catholic church since 1950. By Catholic standards, that's not a tradition: that's a fad.

Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:

textualfisticuffs.com
2013-03-30 03:44:23 PM  
6 votes:
The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.
2013-03-30 04:16:03 PM  
5 votes:
Anyone who has ever met and had a good conversation with a Jesuit knew this Pope was going to cause a constant stream of minor outrages over breaking with the status quo from the moment he was chosen. Those guys really do seem to take a lot of this symbolism stuff seriously.

Of course, it's only a matter of time before he outrages all the folks currently getting a good laugh out of this by symbolically maintaining some other part of the status quo.
2013-03-30 03:27:46 PM  
5 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"




traditionalist are those who suddenly realize that they are losing power.
2013-03-30 03:02:23 PM  
5 votes:
Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"
2013-03-30 12:30:55 PM  
5 votes:

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


So the problem is with the Christians themselves?
2013-03-30 05:57:57 PM  
4 votes:

NeverDrunk23: odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.

If they are annoyed at what little changes he is doing now, image how they would respond to those big changes.


Exactly, the Conservative Catholics are getting upset because he:

1. Refused to wear a gold cross, insisting on the same worn old wooden one he's worn for years.
2. Refused to wear a fancy red velvet cape.
3. Refused to live in the Papal Apartments, considering them too opulent, instead living in a small hotel room.
4. Refused to stand above the Cardinals when they pledged loyalty to him.
5. . . .ceremonially washed the feet of women.

Yeah.  Remember, the Catholic Church is incredibly resistant to ANY change as an institution.  It's 2000 years old, and loves to take ridiculous amounts of time to change anything.

As-is, Francis is practically a revolutionary as Pope.  Give the man some time, if you think the Conservatives are grumpy now, just imagine if he really did say something truly big.  These changes have to come slowly.
2013-03-30 03:45:33 PM  
4 votes:
Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?
2013-03-30 02:36:43 PM  
4 votes:
There is great power in symbolism. This symbolism equates women as equals. Insert Ghandi quote here.
2013-03-30 08:08:33 PM  
3 votes:

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


The *Gospels* pretty much say all that.  The letters of Paul, not so much.
2013-03-30 05:40:01 PM  
3 votes:
So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.
2013-03-30 05:31:46 PM  
3 votes:

LtDarkstar: Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.


This is some good looking bait. I'll bite.
Baptists were the only ones-while trying to convince me to join them-to tell me all other religions were wrong.
That's the last time I went with my friends to the youth group.

To suggest those around you are not saved is bigotry thinly disguised as faith.
I try not to be offended when asked if I'm saved or not.
It's really hard, though. The word gives me the bad ooky shivers. And yet I've never been burnt by all the holy water I've had sprinkled upon my.person. Go figure.
2013-03-30 05:31:23 PM  
3 votes:
So this guy is actually practicing what he's spent a lifetime preaching and some fart-wads are getting their panties in a bunch that he's not acting like some Divine bigshot that dresses like Liberace?
2013-03-30 05:11:40 PM  
3 votes:
My parents were very traditional Roman Catholics and they would love this guy. I've never heard any of these arguments until the media recently picked up on it. I think it's a made up non-story.
2013-03-30 03:38:36 PM  
3 votes:
Well, enjoy this Pope while you can. Between the Curia and Opus Dei, he'd be better off cooking his own meals. Just saying.
2013-03-30 03:37:01 PM  
3 votes:
Yesterday, during Good Friday prayers he sent greetings and reached out in friendship by offering well-wishes to "our Muslims brothers and sisters". Christian indeed!
2013-03-30 12:27:46 PM  
3 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.
2013-03-31 01:12:29 AM  
2 votes:
The "traditional pomp [of] the papacy" is the major reason we got Cathars, Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites and Girolamo Savonarola.  And all of those were *before* Martin Luther.
2013-03-30 08:52:57 PM  
2 votes:
I suspect that "traditional" Catholics like the Pope to be traditional so they don't have to be. It's like the relationship between Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews, and the really all-out religious Jews who live on welfare, have enormous families and practice a religion so severely that they impress everybody else who is a little or a lot less strict but not so much that any of them want to be them.

They're sort of the icing on the cake of religion. And Saint Peter's Basilica is one Hell of a gorgeous cake decoration. Even gay atheist Protestants and Jews are amazed at he outrageous scale of the thing.

But nobody wants the Pope sticking his nose into their own affairs (sexual and marital especially).

You're the Pope of Rome, they seem to think, but you're not the Pope of me.

I always say that the unofficial religion of Canada is Lapsed Catholicism. That's pretty much true of the world. If it were to have a semi-official religion, Lapsed Catholicism would be just grand. It doesn't hurt any one much--certainly not as much as the converts to newer and shakier faiths do, and it takes its own dogma lightly, wearing it on its sleave, not plunging its daggers into your heart in the name of blood-thirsty orthodoxy.

Between Bad Jews and Bad Roman Catholics there is not much to choose, but Thank God for both of them. Not that there's anything wrong with genteel, warm water Protestants or others of the ilk. It's the great masses of people who don't take their religion all that seriously who makes it possible for all of us to survive those who take it way too seriously--and way out of the mainstream into looney psycho territory.
2013-03-30 08:18:09 PM  
2 votes:

xanadian: enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

To put a finer point on it:  the Gospels pretty much say that.  The rest of it is either "control of the masses" kind of dreck or a religious take on historical events.




If the bible were only the gospels, Christianity would be way more appealing.

No Genesis to provide fuel for the Creationists.
No Leviticus to provide fuel for the gay-bashers and misogynists.
No more St. Paul to do likewise.
No more Revelation to give fuel to the doomsday cults.

Just Jesus an his message, without all the other crap.
2013-03-30 08:10:23 PM  
2 votes:
These traditionalists need to think outside the box.  Don't like the new Pope?  Hold your own conclave and declared that you're the new Pope.

http://popemichaelfilm.com/

/Seriously, I've done a lot of research on the sedevacantists, the antipopes, and conclavists; they take craziness to a whole new level.
2013-03-30 06:53:22 PM  
2 votes:

tzzhc4: The ironic part is that pretty much sums up Christ's teachings while on Earth. The other stuff before and after is all just tacked on bullcrap from other people.


It is sad but generally true that most fundies and evangelicals ignore the four awkward gospels as far as possible and concentrate on a couple of chapters of Leviticus and a few of Paul's nastier rants.
2013-03-30 06:51:16 PM  
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.


Here's how I think it will go.

Reformers: How about women priests?
Pope: Not a chance.
Traditionalists: Ha ha (think Nelson Muntz)
Pope: Now let's talk about poverty
Traditionalists: Oh shiat.
Reformers: Ha ha (think Nelson Muntz, again)
2013-03-30 06:04:44 PM  
2 votes:
The butt-hurt of the traditionalists is very (the pun is intentional) and I love it.

...he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
gutn.net

"The official end of the reform of the reform - by example," ''Rorate Caeli" lamented in its report on Francis' Holy Thursday ritual.

gutn.net

Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

gutn.net


Traditionalist Catholics who were attached to the old rite blame many of the ills afflicting the Catholic Church today - a drop in priestly vocations, empty pews in Europe and beyond - on the liturgical abuses that they say have proliferated with the celebration of the new form of Mass.

BZZZZZ...
wrong. This shiat has likely been going on for much much longer. You don' get to shift the blame. It is you farkers who blindly supported the priest as the infallible master of ceremonies. That he is the hand of God an all that shiat. It is you who perverted the word of Jesus to the point that this stuff not only could happen but that the bishops saw nothing wrong in doing what they did. Power corrupts and you guys gave them absolute power to do as they wish. It is only now post-V2 that these people are empowered enough to speak-out.

You revel in the pomp and circumstance of the ceremony because of the way it makes you feel "special". Not giving a damn about how unchristian it is. Jesus gladly ate with the worst people you could find in his time. He ate with bums, the sick, prostitutes, tax collectors*, etc. Jesus entire life was spent preaching about everything you fight against. He preached compassion for the poor, humanity for your fellow man, self-evaluation and self-improvement. He preached against prejudice, against elevating others to a higher seat, etc. Vatican II came about NOT because they wanted to change things to be more liberal; it was because people realized pre-V2 for what it was: an out-right sham. Jesus taught the values of love and equality, you prefer a religion of elitist intolerance and ostentatiousness. Please go be an ascetic, where we don't have to listen to your perversion

I say all of this as someone who fluctuates in the reformed-Catholic/agnostic/atheist space. There are values and things the church does that are quite good, there are also things the church permits or enforces that are outright evil.
As a former priest of mine taught (at a parish that said in their charter statement: "we are all sinners as such we welcome...those of confused or differing sexual orientations...") you often can find good in any bad, you just have to learn how to discard the bad and keep the good.
*Tax collectors were considered some of the worst people possible. Whatever they determined was owed was what the family had to pay (they often added a percentage onto the tax for their own pocket). They had the power to force a family to starve to death. Needless to say, these people were hated.
2013-03-30 05:43:38 PM  
2 votes:

odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.


If they are annoyed at what little changes he is doing now, image how they would respond to those big changes.
2013-03-30 05:42:55 PM  
2 votes:
legion_of_doo:

The "New Testament" doesn't work without the lineage of Jesus back to David, the fulfillment of the scriptures, etc., and there's multiple ties back to the other pieces of the Bible.  Yes, for a lot of Christians (who barely read the Bible as it is), you could get rid of the "Old" Testament.  However, the "New" Testament still needs the "Old" part.

Why not? The lineage to David was "proof" of his messiah-hood. That was to convince the Jews he was the one they were waiting for. If you believe he died on the cross for your sins and came back to life 3 days later (and all the logical rational stuff he taught that every other religion also says), then you don't need the "lineage" and "fulfillment of scriptures." I mean, the guy healed people, made food appear out of nowhere, and brought a dude back to life, and you still want to see his family tree to verify it? That's like saying you won't believe the guy who flew un-aided through the air, caught an asteroid before impact, and hurled it back into space is Superman until you see his Kryptonian birth certificate! He was either the Son of God who died and came back to life or not, regardless of "scripture."

By the way, I quit being Catholic and/or Christian 25 years ago, so have no dog in the hunt.
xcv
2013-03-30 05:02:26 PM  
2 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


Then your religion would have died out, like the thousands of other nice-guy philosophies we never heard about because the people preaching them were conquered, raped, killed or converted into the more dominant faiths over the centuries. All the organized faiths today were very adept at passing on their social genes through methods like aggressive indoctrination and a hunger for power.

Religions are like animal species that have to remain competitive or lose their niche.
2013-03-30 04:59:35 PM  
2 votes:
As a  Mormon, I like this guy. His example of the priesthood being about serving others, and not about personal power or gain, is spot-on.
2013-03-30 04:39:56 PM  
2 votes:
"People naturally imitate their leader. That's the whole point behind Jesus washing the disciples' feet. He was explicitly and intentionally setting an example for them," he said. "Pope Francis knows that he is setting an example."

"If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.


God humbled himself before man so that men would know to do the same. But God forbid Man humble himself before a woman.....
2013-03-30 04:32:05 PM  
2 votes:
Nice attention-getting headline but yeah, I wasn't seeing much outrage, more like "This could lead to confusion about what the policy is."
2013-03-30 04:32:02 PM  
2 votes:

enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


The problem with the Bible is that it says all sorts of other shiat too, a lot of which isn't good, charitable, equitable, or just. The Bible needs some serious downsizing for consistency's sake. Christianity would be better served if it just tossed the entire Old Testament out the window. There is nothing of value there that isn't inferred from the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful, petty, and cruel - the God of the New Testament seems like a much cooler guy.
2013-03-30 04:28:42 PM  
2 votes:
I'm not the most religious guy.
But I'm liking the new guy.

Instead of "I'm leading 1.2 billion" he's thinking "I'm blessed to serve 1.2 billion".
2013-03-30 04:28:34 PM  
2 votes:

FloydA: FTA:  Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church. ...Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

Good.


Agreed. I think the RCC is about to discover why they haven't had a Jesuit pope before.
2013-03-30 04:28:11 PM  
2 votes:

Silverstaff: OtherLittleGuy: Next thing you know, he'll be healing the sick on the Sabbath and be in the company of tax collectors.

I'm quite sure that acting like that is NOT tolerated by these traditionalists.  They have a very long, proud heritage of being obsessed with Divine Law above all else, and ensuring that they hold everyone, even God Himself, to the absolute literal wording of the law.

It's fair to see that this tradition is much older than Christianity, the modern ultraconservative Catholics are just the newest version of this school of thought.

/Not Catholic
//Finding Pope Francis pretty cool so far though


I can see these folks telling God that he's wrong, and that the procedures were more important then the whole point of the exercise

sort of reminds me of the guys who had a beef with Jesus in the bible
2013-03-30 04:27:59 PM  
2 votes:
Headline attention whoring. Actual article: Rules lawyer says Pope ignored minor rules, since he can just change them anyway it doesn't matter much, but please do so.

Every Catholic I know thinks new Pope is awesome. Headline = crap.
2013-03-30 04:13:55 PM  
2 votes:
"Do not do to your neighbor what is hateful when done to you. All else is commentary."
2013-03-30 04:11:27 PM  
2 votes:
I was having a discussion with a cow-orker about the time Benedict was resigning. I am basically a lapsed catholic... ok atheist(so I don't really have a dog in the hunt but I was answering questions.), he is not catholic.

I said that a pope doesn't simply resign... at least not in the last 600 years (and usually under some duress), they serve until they die. He asked why. One thing I said was because now there will be two popes (at least in some peoples minds.)

I said that I was sure there wouldn't be any problems and that the new pope would probably be just as traditional as Benedict and it'll all go smoothly.

But as a hypothetical, I asked, what if the new pope comes in and starts ruffling the cardinal's feathers? (pun semi-intentional) What if he proposes massive changes. He's the pope... he can do that. What if this filters down and a significant portion of the church hierarchy is uncomfortable with these changes? What if the people themselves don't like the changes?

Now it looks like Francis has some new ideas. What if they get even more out of line with the mainstream?

Could there be a movement to bring back Benedict? What if Benedict himself asks for a do-over because he is displeased with changes being made. He was elected pope by the cardinals, who believe they are doing the will of god... he was selected to be god's spokesman on earth and leader of the church until death... and now suddenly he isn't because of one man's decision, his own?

Might be interesting to watch.

/tl;dr
2013-03-30 04:03:23 PM  
2 votes:
This heathen/Panthiest is liking this Pope.  He may save Christianity.  From themselves.
2013-03-30 03:41:42 PM  
2 votes:
And to think: it was the traditionalist, Benedict-appointed, cardinals that elected, quite possibly, another John Paul II, or, at the very least, another Paul VI. Maybe some of those cardinals were trying to send their brethren a message about not living in the 15th century.
2013-03-30 03:39:58 PM  
2 votes:
Good. I wonder when he's gonna start selling off that massive treasure trove the Vacatan is sitting on and giving to the poor.
2013-03-30 03:32:32 PM  
2 votes:
Francis' decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls - a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic - during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.

Thank God! Does this mean we'll stop doing stupid BS like reword the Catholic liturgy to make it even sound less sense than it did before?
2013-03-30 03:31:47 PM  
2 votes:

Relatively Obscure: By Thursday evening, Peters was saying that Francis had merely "disregarded" the law - not violated it.


Lulz.  Oh, you guys.


This is the entirety of theology - wordplay.
2013-03-30 03:16:05 PM  
2 votes:
Next thing you know, he'll be healing the sick on the Sabbath and be in the company of tax collectors.
2013-03-30 02:57:29 PM  
2 votes:

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


To put a finer point on it:  the Gospels pretty much say that.  The rest of it is either "control of the masses" kind of dreck or a religious take on historical events.
2013-03-30 02:55:11 PM  
2 votes:
You'll get over it.
2013-03-30 12:25:18 PM  
2 votes:
"If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?
2013-03-31 11:35:10 AM  
1 votes:
So the foot-washing is the final straw?

Not the child sexual abuse and the cover-up?

/I don't get these people at all
2013-03-31 03:29:57 AM  
1 votes:
From previous fark thread
i.imgur.com
2013-03-31 02:12:04 AM  
1 votes:
He's being exactly like Jesus and they're being exactly like the Pharisees and they don't even see the irony.  Hey guys, nobody in all of human history did more to elevate the status of women than Jesus Christ.
2013-03-31 02:11:19 AM  
1 votes:

tzzhc4: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The ironic part is that pretty much sums up Christ's teachings while on Earth. The other stuff before and after is all just tacked on bullcrap from other people.

[nhne-pulse.org image 850x570]



Despite the fact that I'm a hellbound heathen, I truly love that man...a far better ambassador for Christianity than most of the clergy.
2013-03-30 10:46:05 PM  
1 votes:

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The traditionalists need to get the bugs out of their butts.  Vatican II was one of the few sensible things the church did over the last 100 years.  The idea that the decline of the church can be blamed on modernizing is moronic, it's the fusty insistence on Latin and outdated traditions that was killing them.  Making the church less accessible to the average churchgoer was NOT helping, Benedict had his head way up his own ass.


The lack of Latin Mass as a driving force in the decline of the church is what stuck out for me the most.  I just can't find the logical process that could lead to this conclusion. If their best idea is to babble at people for an hour in a dead language that no one will understand, jam a cracker in your face, give you a sip of wine and send you on your way then they were on a road to ruin.  At least if they use the vernacular, people will hear the message.
2013-03-30 09:58:21 PM  
1 votes:

Doc Daneeka: xanadian: enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

To put a finer point on it:  the Gospels pretty much say that.  The rest of it is either "control of the masses" kind of dreck or a religious take on historical events.

If the bible were only the gospels, Christianity would be way more appealing.

No Genesis to provide fuel for the Creationists.
No Leviticus to provide fuel for the gay-bashers and misogynists.
No more St. Paul to do likewise.
No more Revelation to give fuel to the doomsday cults.

Just Jesus an his message, without all the other crap.


It's pretty much how I've tried to live my whole life.
2013-03-30 09:57:09 PM  
1 votes:
So wait. They get a pope that acts more like how Jesus acted when he was here and the Pharisees get all mad and huffy.

Nice to see things haven't changed in 2000 years.
2013-03-30 09:56:10 PM  
1 votes:
I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, I think the Church--be it Catholic or Protestant--would do well to get back to addressing poverty and related social issues more directly and clearly (but excluding divisive hot-button politics like abortion and gay marriage,etc.). On the other, I am very traditional when it comes to church music. I like the liturgical worship traditions. I can understand a person wanting a Latin Mass--provided you understand what the rituals mean, which does not have to be the same as understanding Latin--but vernacular worship is mighty important too. I don't see why you can't have one of each.
2013-03-30 07:10:57 PM  
1 votes:

ATRDCI: "The Pope could decide that all this power, all this wealth, this hierarchy of princes and bishops and archbishops and priests and monks and nuns could be sent out in the world with money and art treasures, to put them back in the countries that they once raped and violated, they could give that money away, and they could concentrate on the apparent essence of their belief, and then, I would stand here and say the Catholic Church may well be a force for good in the world, but until that day, it is not.

"

Doing evil or failing to do all the good you can does not negate the good that you do.  There is a more pertinent reason for the Church to divest itself of worldly trappings.

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."  Matt 19:24
2013-03-30 07:07:24 PM  
1 votes:
Most Christians would snub Jesus for the homeless religious nut and provocateur he was, the filthy beggar.
2013-03-30 07:06:19 PM  
1 votes:

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


Yes (and I'm sure others have already said it because I came in late), but it has stuff that also denigrates women and any non-powerful member of society. Though obviously much of that is in the Pauline letters it is still the NT. While the bible DOES have some good points, it has just as many if not more bad points.  ALL christians pick and cose which parts they follow. Even ALL jews pick and choose which parts they follow of the OT, even the most orthodox of jews, how many stonings of disobedient children or adulterous wves have you heard of i Brooklyn?
2013-03-30 07:03:35 PM  
1 votes:

the_chief: Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?


Most of those RCs I know are basically "going through the motions" to keep the old folks happy..old folks that have been brainwashed that god will not let them see their loved ones in Heaven once their time is up if they don't follow the rules.  Which kinda blows the whole eternal happiness in heaven thing out of the water.

Once those old crows are dead, you'll see a lot less church going.
2013-03-30 06:49:49 PM  
1 votes:

Steve Zodiac: Oh goody! Does this mean we get to go on a new Crusade to take back the holy land?


Oddly enough, they're pissed that he seems to want to get along with Muslims.
2013-03-30 06:47:58 PM  
1 votes:

likeahawk: "People naturally imitate their leader. That's the whole point behind Jesus washing the disciples' feet. He was explicitly and intentionally setting an example for them," he said. "Pope Francis knows that he is setting an example."

"If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

God humbled himself before man so that men would know to do the same. But God forbid Man humble himself before a woman.....


There were two phrases in the article that amused me. The first was "spittle flecked nutty," which has already been covered. The other was "militant humility."
2013-03-30 06:45:56 PM  
1 votes:

DetrimentalScience: The butt-hurt of the traditionalists is very (the pun is intentional) and I love it.

...he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
[gutn.net image 750x499]

"The official end of the reform of the reform - by example," ''Rorate Caeli" lamented in its report on Francis' Holy Thursday ritual.

[gutn.net image 750x499]

Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

[gutn.net image 750x499]


Traditionalist Catholics who were attached to the old rite blame many of the ills afflicting the Catholic Church today - a drop in priestly vocations, empty pews in Europe and beyond - on the liturgical abuses that they say have proliferated with the celebration of the new form of Mass.

BZZZZZ...wrong. This shiat has likely been going on for much much longer. You don' get to shift the blame. It is you farkers who blindly supported the priest as the infallible master of ceremonies. That he is the hand of God an all that shiat. It is you who perverted the word of Jesus to the point that this stuff not only could happen but that the bishops saw nothing wrong in doing what they did. Power corrupts and you guys gave them absolute power to do as they wish. It is only now post-V2 that these people are empowered enough to speak-out.

You revel in the pomp and circumstance of the ceremony because of the way it makes you feel "special". Not giving a damn about how unchristian it is. Jesus gladly ate with the worst people you could find in his time. He ate with bums, the sick, prostitutes, tax collectors*, etc. Jesus entire life was spent preaching about everything you fight against. He preached compassion for the poor, humanity for your fellow man, self-evaluation and self-improvement. He preached against prejudice, against elevating others to a higher seat, etc. Vatican II came about NOT because t ...


As Stephen Fry said in the Intelligence Squared Debate:

"Do you know who would be the last person ever to be accepted as a prince of the Church? The Galilean carpenter. That Jew. They would kick him out before he tried to cross the threshold. He would be so ill-at-ease in the Church. What would he think, what would he think of St. Peter's? What would he think of the wealth, and the power, and the self-justification, and the wheedling apologies? The Pope could decide that all this power, all this wealth, this hierarchy of princes and bishops and archbishops and priests and monks and nuns could be sent out in the world with money and art treasures, to put them back in the countries that they once raped and violated, they could give that money away, and they could concentrate on the apparent essence of their belief, and then, I would stand here and say the Catholic Church may well be a force for good in the world, but until that day, it is not. Thank you. "
2013-03-30 06:38:10 PM  
1 votes:
Good.  Fark these right wing, heartless bastards.  As if clothes and liturgical niceties are more important than serving those in need.

/progressive Catholic
//sick of all the Christian-Taliban shiat in this country
///slashies having a strange calming effect.
2013-03-30 06:30:26 PM  
1 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick -

Psalm 34:13-14ESV

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves -

Acts 20:35  ESV
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

Proverbs 19:17  ESV
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the  Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.


3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life. -

1 Thessalonians 5:18ESV

Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.


it does.
2013-03-30 05:52:49 PM  
1 votes:

enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


Yes, in some parts. In others it contradicts itself.  Once a war god, always a war god.
2013-03-30 05:45:08 PM  
1 votes:

odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.


He's been in the job for how many days now? He can't do any of that at the drop of a hat- changing shiat like that requires a lot of work behind the scenes, even when you are the boss.
And, you know, he is changing shiat. Like washing the feet of women- that's very, very big, and could very well be the precursor to an expanded role for women. But he's got to knock a few heads in the curia first.
2013-03-30 05:32:11 PM  
1 votes:
This thread should have been funnier.
2013-03-30 05:29:04 PM  
1 votes:

hinten: MindStalker: hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.

Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses


Ah, no.
I'm no theologian so this won't go very far but the fact that he was anti-authoritarian and democratized the distribution of the Bible clearly establishes him as less conservative as the pope and church at the time.


Honestly, its a difficult subject, one was fundamentalist about central authority, they were the government, they were using the church as part of that. The other was fundamentalist about gods authority, they believed in extremely strict rules in regarding daily life that the government didn't follow. In a weird way, its as if the Taliban and Iran had a spat and they split.
2013-03-30 05:12:53 PM  
1 votes:

bingo the psych-o: enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

It also says that you should treat your slaves kindly.  Can I start keeping slaves?  My place is a mess and I can't stay on top of it.


That's what kids are for.
2013-03-30 05:12:17 PM  
1 votes:
The traditional Catholics are forgetting the most traditional thing a Catholic can do: getting over the fact that the Pope is in charge of you and realizing that what he says, goes.
2013-03-30 05:11:06 PM  
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"



Yes, pretty much
/catholic who loves this new pope and hopes they do not poison him like the last good one..
2013-03-30 05:11:00 PM  
1 votes:

MindStalker: hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.

Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses



Ah, no.
I'm no theologian so this won't go very far but the fact that he was anti-authoritarian and democratized the distribution of the Bible clearly establishes him as less conservative as the pope and church at the time.
2013-03-30 05:05:36 PM  
1 votes:

LtDarkstar: Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.


Let me guess: + -- 20  C + M + B  08 -- +

My dad would do that around Epiphany.  It is the year and the initials of the Three Wise Men, as related by tradition.  It was just considered to be a house blessing, and my father did it because he could reach the top of the door.  It wasn't supposed to keep sin out of the house;  it was just a blessing.


2013-03-30 05:04:01 PM  
1 votes:
I like the cut of this guy's jib. I usually only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. I've been thinking about going more often now.
2013-03-30 05:03:58 PM  
1 votes:

LargeCanine: vrax: So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?

Nope.


Umm, that's exactly what the actual article says.
2013-03-30 05:03:00 PM  
1 votes:
I'm too modern to be Catholic.  One of my kids went on a field trip to a Catholic church recently.  Watching the members of the church treat the local priest as someone more than human was more than a little uncomfortable.  I prefer my spiritual guide to have some experiences in common with my problems.

With all that said, I am liking this Pope more and more.
2013-03-30 04:58:22 PM  
1 votes:

vrax: So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?


Nope.
2013-03-30 04:57:42 PM  
1 votes:
So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?  I like him more and more.
2013-03-30 04:46:15 PM  
1 votes:

legion_of_doo: tortilla burger: enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

The problem with the Bible is that it says all sorts of other shiat too, a lot of which isn't good, charitable, equitable, or just. The Bible needs some serious downsizing for consistency's sake. Christianity would be better served if it just tossed the entire Old Testament out the window. There is nothing of value there that isn't inferred from the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful, petty, and cruel - the God of the New Testament seems like a much cooler guy.

The "New Testament" doesn't work without the lineage of Jesus back to David, the fulfillment of the scriptures, etc., and there's multiple ties back to the other pieces of the Bible.  Yes, for a lot of Christians (who barely read the Bible as it is), you could get rid of the "Old" Testament.  However, the "New" Testament still needs the "Old" part.

ScreamingHangover: Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:
 You can divorce pieces of the Catholic church from the charity as much as you like, but "Conservative Catholics" are helping build the schools as much as the "Traditional Catholics". Everyone owns their own piece of the doctrine, and the debate over who/what Catholics are.


And just because some "Traditional Catholics" might be pro-abortion, and some "Conservative Catholics" might be pro-death penalty doesn't make either side right.


Thank you for reinforcing my distinction between Traditional and conservative Catholics while at the same time providing a perfect example of conservative nitpicking.
2013-03-30 04:46:14 PM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.


Oh but they will be leading, my friend. by example. They will show us all how to sacrifice, how to give, how to serve.
2013-03-30 04:42:26 PM  
1 votes:

LtDarkstar: A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".


Catholicism is weird in that is the only form of Christianity that allows for folk magic like that, and even some hermeticism. Of course if you told your boss he was doing a magical spell, he'd look at you like YOU were the crazy one.
2013-03-30 04:42:25 PM  
1 votes:

hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.


Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses
2013-03-30 04:40:05 PM  
1 votes:
Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.
2013-03-30 04:39:05 PM  
1 votes:

ScreamingHangover: Forbidden Doughnut: What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x427]

You're confusing "Conservative" with "Traditional".
They are far from the same thing. Although the conservatives like to claim they are traditionalist, the conservative Catholic movement - like the conservative evangelical movement- is a relatively new phenomena. Opus Dei is less than 100 years old and has only been recognized by the Catholic church since 1950. By Catholic standards, that's not a tradition: that's a fad.

Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:

[textualfisticuffs.com image 220x300]


....I stand corrected.
2013-03-30 04:34:06 PM  
1 votes:

orbister: I think the RCC is about to discover why they haven't had a Jesuit pope before.


I certainly hope. It'll be fun watching the very same people who have previously said the Pope's authority is absolute all of a sudden screaming about the Pope not playing by the rules.

R.A.Danny: Instead of "I'm leading 1.2 billion" he's thinking "I'm blessed to serve 1.2 billion".


The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.
2013-03-30 04:33:40 PM  
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"


Yes.
2013-03-30 04:24:08 PM  
1 votes:

varmitydog: the_chief : Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?

I don't know, but I figure it has something to do with money.
I'm a Catholic who goes to church every week. I really don't give a flying f*ck whose feet the pope washes.
The earth will still revolve around the sun no matter what the pope does.


Now THAT is an interesting turn of phrase.

/The fact that around 1/6 of the world are at his beck and call might also have to do with why people care
2013-03-30 04:23:31 PM  
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"


from near as I can tell, in many cases traditionalist means flaming asshole in any context
2013-03-30 04:20:11 PM  
1 votes:
This whole Pope business is some creepy shiat, yo.
2013-03-30 04:18:58 PM  
1 votes:
the_chief : Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?

I don't know, but I figure it has something to do with money.
I'm a Catholic who goes to church every week. I really don't give a flying f*ck whose feet the pope washes.
The earth will still revolve around the sun no matter what the pope does.
2013-03-30 04:12:21 PM  
1 votes:

clancifer: So the problem is with the Christians themselves?


Considering what makes folks get uptight, i'd say that's a big yep
2013-03-30 04:02:40 PM  
1 votes:

LDM90: NutWrench: "If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?

I get the feeling that anyone who calls women "females" really doesn't like women.

That's a word that should be reserved for veterinarians and biologists.


and Ferengi.
2013-03-30 04:00:53 PM  
1 votes:
What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

upload.wikimedia.org
2013-03-30 03:57:02 PM  
1 votes:
The traditionalists need to get the bugs out of their butts.  Vatican II was one of the few sensible things the church did over the last 100 years.  The idea that the decline of the church can be blamed on modernizing is moronic, it's the fusty insistence on Latin and outdated traditions that was killing them.  Making the church less accessible to the average churchgoer was NOT helping, Benedict had his head way up his own ass.
2013-03-30 03:50:57 PM  
1 votes:
It appears that these traditions enshrined in liturgical law are like  the traditions enshrined in the U. S. Flag Code law, lacking penalties and unenforceable.  None the less, some people take them seriously.
2013-03-30 03:49:14 PM  
1 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


A little bit of that money actually goes to feed the hungry, clothe the cold, build shelter for the homeless, provide educations, medical care, all sorts of kookie things.

-- and way to think the remarks of a few people in an article is good representation of a group that is over 1 billion strong, sillymitter.
2013-03-30 03:46:27 PM  
1 votes:

OtherLittleGuy: Next thing you know, he'll be healing the sick on the Sabbath and be in the company of tax collectors.


I'm quite sure that acting like that is NOT tolerated by these traditionalists.  They have a very long, proud heritage of being obsessed with Divine Law above all else, and ensuring that they hold everyone, even God Himself, to the absolute literal wording of the law.

It's fair to see that this tradition is much older than Christianity, the modern ultraconservative Catholics are just the newest version of this school of thought.

/Not Catholic
//Finding Pope Francis pretty cool so far though
2013-03-30 03:43:09 PM  
1 votes:

FloydA: Good.


dashburst.com

Agrees
2013-03-30 03:39:07 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Relatively Obscure: By Thursday evening, Peters was saying that Francis had merely "disregarded" the law - not violated it.


Lulz.  Oh, you guys.

This is the entirety of theology - wordplay.


Correct. Put the wordplay strikes deep than you know.
2013-03-30 03:38:52 PM  
1 votes:

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..


A close second is the banking industry.
2013-03-30 03:36:27 PM  
1 votes:

FloydA: FTA:  Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church. ...Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

Good.


If he keeps this up we are all in for some good times....good times indeed.

Besides, those traditionalists were all form and no substance. The day after his election I happened to walk by the local chapter of Opus Dei and they had a big sign outside their store that read "Congratulations Pope Francis" and they had tacked that sign right above the sign that said "SALE. EVERYTHING 20% OFF." It seems so prophetic now.
2013-03-30 03:24:53 PM  
1 votes:
"Treat things divine with marked respect - don't have anything to do with them."

Ambrose Bierce
2013-03-30 01:08:59 PM  
1 votes:

clancifer: enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

So the problem is with the Christians themselves?


Yep. :-(
2013-03-30 12:27:52 PM  
1 votes:

Steve Zodiac: Oh goody! Does this mean we get to go on a new Crusade to take back the holy land?


I thought we already were.

/not catholic.
 
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