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(WFAA Fort Worth)   Traditional Catholics are outraged that Pope Francis is returning the church to traditional Christianity   (wfaa.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Pope Francis, conservative Catholics, Christianity, traditional Christianity, Vatican II, liturgy, Catholic Church, church law  
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15566 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 3:25 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 04:59:35 PM  
As a  Mormon, I like this guy. His example of the priesthood being about serving others, and not about personal power or gain, is spot-on.
 
2013-03-30 04:59:58 PM  
pope back and forth, forever
 
xcv
2013-03-30 05:02:26 PM  

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


Then your religion would have died out, like the thousands of other nice-guy philosophies we never heard about because the people preaching them were conquered, raped, killed or converted into the more dominant faiths over the centuries. All the organized faiths today were very adept at passing on their social genes through methods like aggressive indoctrination and a hunger for power.

Religions are like animal species that have to remain competitive or lose their niche.
 
2013-03-30 05:03:00 PM  
I'm too modern to be Catholic.  One of my kids went on a field trip to a Catholic church recently.  Watching the members of the church treat the local priest as someone more than human was more than a little uncomfortable.  I prefer my spiritual guide to have some experiences in common with my problems.

With all that said, I am liking this Pope more and more.
 
2013-03-30 05:03:58 PM  

LargeCanine: vrax: So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?

Nope.


Umm, that's exactly what the actual article says.
 
2013-03-30 05:04:01 PM  
I like the cut of this guy's jib. I usually only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. I've been thinking about going more often now.
 
2013-03-30 05:05:36 PM  

LtDarkstar: Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.


Let me guess: + -- 20  C + M + B  08 -- +

My dad would do that around Epiphany.  It is the year and the initials of the Three Wise Men, as related by tradition.  It was just considered to be a house blessing, and my father did it because he could reach the top of the door.  It wasn't supposed to keep sin out of the house;  it was just a blessing.
 
2013-03-30 05:11:00 PM  

MindStalker: hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.

Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses



Ah, no.
I'm no theologian so this won't go very far but the fact that he was anti-authoritarian and democratized the distribution of the Bible clearly establishes him as less conservative as the pope and church at the time.
 
2013-03-30 05:11:06 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"



Yes, pretty much
/catholic who loves this new pope and hopes they do not poison him like the last good one..
 
2013-03-30 05:11:32 PM  

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


It also says that you should treat your slaves kindly.  Can I start keeping slaves?  My place is a mess and I can't stay on top of it.
 
2013-03-30 05:11:40 PM  
My parents were very traditional Roman Catholics and they would love this guy. I've never heard any of these arguments until the media recently picked up on it. I think it's a made up non-story.
 
2013-03-30 05:12:14 PM  

rkiller1: He's a different kind of pope, all together.


"He's a different kind of pope!"
 
2013-03-30 05:12:17 PM  
The traditional Catholics are forgetting the most traditional thing a Catholic can do: getting over the fact that the Pope is in charge of you and realizing that what he says, goes.
 
2013-03-30 05:12:53 PM  

bingo the psych-o: enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

It also says that you should treat your slaves kindly.  Can I start keeping slaves?  My place is a mess and I can't stay on top of it.


That's what kids are for.
 
2013-03-30 05:14:11 PM  

rkiller1: He's a different kind of pope, all together.


He's a different kind of pope.
 
2013-03-30 05:19:59 PM  

Oldiron_79: Gifted Many Few: When do the heretic burnings begin again? That was when traditional meant something.

THIS, we could all use a good inquisition.


sounds like you're expecting one...
 
2013-03-30 05:20:30 PM  

LDM90: NutWrench: "If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?

I get the feeling that anyone who calls women "females" really doesn't like women.

That's a word that should be reserved for veterinarians and biologists and geekspeakers.


FTFY.

/I geekspoke a lot
//I sounded like a dictionary
 
2013-03-30 05:24:40 PM  

Breygon: Oldiron_79: Gifted Many Few: When do the heretic burnings begin again? That was when traditional meant something.

THIS, we could all use a good inquisition.

sounds like you're expecting one...


Its the inquisition, lets begin. The Inquisition, you better watch out sin.
 
2013-03-30 05:29:04 PM  

hinten: MindStalker: hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.

Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses


Ah, no.
I'm no theologian so this won't go very far but the fact that he was anti-authoritarian and democratized the distribution of the Bible clearly establishes him as less conservative as the pope and church at the time.


Honestly, its a difficult subject, one was fundamentalist about central authority, they were the government, they were using the church as part of that. The other was fundamentalist about gods authority, they believed in extremely strict rules in regarding daily life that the government didn't follow. In a weird way, its as if the Taliban and Iran had a spat and they split.
 
2013-03-30 05:31:23 PM  
So this guy is actually practicing what he's spent a lifetime preaching and some fart-wads are getting their panties in a bunch that he's not acting like some Divine bigshot that dresses like Liberace?
 
2013-03-30 05:31:46 PM  

LtDarkstar: Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.


This is some good looking bait. I'll bite.
Baptists were the only ones-while trying to convince me to join them-to tell me all other religions were wrong.
That's the last time I went with my friends to the youth group.

To suggest those around you are not saved is bigotry thinly disguised as faith.
I try not to be offended when asked if I'm saved or not.
It's really hard, though. The word gives me the bad ooky shivers. And yet I've never been burnt by all the holy water I've had sprinkled upon my.person. Go figure.
 
2013-03-30 05:32:11 PM  
This thread should have been funnier.
 
2013-03-30 05:34:41 PM  
When this guy actually lives like the jesus ... until then ... we'll probly' hear somewhere down the road that his peaked silliness had quietly moved back into his palatial surroundings after it had been fully renovated.
 
2013-03-30 05:36:52 PM  

varmitydog: The earth will still revolve around the sun no matter what the pope does.


Pfft... You had that part backwards meaning the rest of what you say is a bit suspect.
 
2013-03-30 05:40:01 PM  
So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.
 
2013-03-30 05:42:55 PM  
legion_of_doo:

The "New Testament" doesn't work without the lineage of Jesus back to David, the fulfillment of the scriptures, etc., and there's multiple ties back to the other pieces of the Bible.  Yes, for a lot of Christians (who barely read the Bible as it is), you could get rid of the "Old" Testament.  However, the "New" Testament still needs the "Old" part.

Why not? The lineage to David was "proof" of his messiah-hood. That was to convince the Jews he was the one they were waiting for. If you believe he died on the cross for your sins and came back to life 3 days later (and all the logical rational stuff he taught that every other religion also says), then you don't need the "lineage" and "fulfillment of scriptures." I mean, the guy healed people, made food appear out of nowhere, and brought a dude back to life, and you still want to see his family tree to verify it? That's like saying you won't believe the guy who flew un-aided through the air, caught an asteroid before impact, and hurled it back into space is Superman until you see his Kryptonian birth certificate! He was either the Son of God who died and came back to life or not, regardless of "scripture."

By the way, I quit being Catholic and/or Christian 25 years ago, so have no dog in the hunt.
 
2013-03-30 05:43:38 PM  

odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.


If they are annoyed at what little changes he is doing now, image how they would respond to those big changes.
 
2013-03-30 05:45:08 PM  

odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.


He's been in the job for how many days now? He can't do any of that at the drop of a hat- changing shiat like that requires a lot of work behind the scenes, even when you are the boss.
And, you know, he is changing shiat. Like washing the feet of women- that's very, very big, and could very well be the precursor to an expanded role for women. But he's got to knock a few heads in the curia first.
 
2013-03-30 05:52:49 PM  

enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


Yes, in some parts. In others it contradicts itself.  Once a war god, always a war god.
 
2013-03-30 05:53:47 PM  
I see that traditional stupidity is still in tact.
 
2013-03-30 05:54:45 PM  

Hickory-smoked: "Do not do to your neighbor what is hateful when done to you. All else is commentary."


But I like it when people stop me from getting an abortion!

The Golden Rule is the most egotistical, illogical piece of morality ever.  What you prefer is not what others prefer.
 
2013-03-30 05:57:57 PM  

NeverDrunk23: odinsposse: So "non-traditionalist pope" just means he's dropping some of the pomp and using more humble language. He isn't doing anything like reversing the Church's stance on contraception, extending the priesthood to women or married people, or anything that actually would make Catholicism more relevant to the modern world. I guess I'm strongly indifferent to this Pope's break with tradition.

If they are annoyed at what little changes he is doing now, image how they would respond to those big changes.


Exactly, the Conservative Catholics are getting upset because he:

1. Refused to wear a gold cross, insisting on the same worn old wooden one he's worn for years.
2. Refused to wear a fancy red velvet cape.
3. Refused to live in the Papal Apartments, considering them too opulent, instead living in a small hotel room.
4. Refused to stand above the Cardinals when they pledged loyalty to him.
5. . . .ceremonially washed the feet of women.

Yeah.  Remember, the Catholic Church is incredibly resistant to ANY change as an institution.  It's 2000 years old, and loves to take ridiculous amounts of time to change anything.

As-is, Francis is practically a revolutionary as Pope.  Give the man some time, if you think the Conservatives are grumpy now, just imagine if he really did say something truly big.  These changes have to come slowly.
 
2013-03-30 05:58:26 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: The Golden Rule is the most egotistical, illogical piece of morality ever.


... Except for all the other ones?
 
2013-03-30 06:04:44 PM  
The butt-hurt of the traditionalists is very (the pun is intentional) and I love it.

...he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
gutn.net

"The official end of the reform of the reform - by example," ''Rorate Caeli" lamented in its report on Francis' Holy Thursday ritual.

gutn.net

Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

gutn.net


Traditionalist Catholics who were attached to the old rite blame many of the ills afflicting the Catholic Church today - a drop in priestly vocations, empty pews in Europe and beyond - on the liturgical abuses that they say have proliferated with the celebration of the new form of Mass.

BZZZZZ...
wrong. This shiat has likely been going on for much much longer. You don' get to shift the blame. It is you farkers who blindly supported the priest as the infallible master of ceremonies. That he is the hand of God an all that shiat. It is you who perverted the word of Jesus to the point that this stuff not only could happen but that the bishops saw nothing wrong in doing what they did. Power corrupts and you guys gave them absolute power to do as they wish. It is only now post-V2 that these people are empowered enough to speak-out.

You revel in the pomp and circumstance of the ceremony because of the way it makes you feel "special". Not giving a damn about how unchristian it is. Jesus gladly ate with the worst people you could find in his time. He ate with bums, the sick, prostitutes, tax collectors*, etc. Jesus entire life was spent preaching about everything you fight against. He preached compassion for the poor, humanity for your fellow man, self-evaluation and self-improvement. He preached against prejudice, against elevating others to a higher seat, etc. Vatican II came about NOT because they wanted to change things to be more liberal; it was because people realized pre-V2 for what it was: an out-right sham. Jesus taught the values of love and equality, you prefer a religion of elitist intolerance and ostentatiousness. Please go be an ascetic, where we don't have to listen to your perversion

I say all of this as someone who fluctuates in the reformed-Catholic/agnostic/atheist space. There are values and things the church does that are quite good, there are also things the church permits or enforces that are outright evil.
As a former priest of mine taught (at a parish that said in their charter statement: "we are all sinners as such we welcome...those of confused or differing sexual orientations...") you often can find good in any bad, you just have to learn how to discard the bad and keep the good.
*Tax collectors were considered some of the worst people possible. Whatever they determined was owed was what the family had to pay (they often added a percentage onto the tax for their own pocket). They had the power to force a family to starve to death. Needless to say, these people were hated.
 
2013-03-30 06:11:24 PM  
He's selling indulgences? How much does one go for these days?
 
2013-03-30 06:18:00 PM  

Breygon: Oldiron_79: Gifted Many Few: When do the heretic burnings begin again? That was when traditional meant something.

THIS, we could all use a good inquisition.

sounds like you're expecting one...


NO ONE EXPECTS THE INQUISITION!
 
2013-03-30 06:30:26 PM  

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick -

Psalm 34:13-14ESV

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves -

Acts 20:35  ESV
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

Proverbs 19:17  ESV
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the  Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.


3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life. -

1 Thessalonians 5:18ESV

Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.


it does.
 
2013-03-30 06:38:10 PM  
Good.  Fark these right wing, heartless bastards.  As if clothes and liturgical niceties are more important than serving those in need.

/progressive Catholic
//sick of all the Christian-Taliban shiat in this country
///slashies having a strange calming effect.
 
2013-03-30 06:39:29 PM  
He's symbolically telling the priests and other clergy to expand to molesting little girls, as people are growing wise to them molesting boys.
He's pragmatic, this pope.
 
2013-03-30 06:45:56 PM  

DetrimentalScience: The butt-hurt of the traditionalists is very (the pun is intentional) and I love it.

...he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
[gutn.net image 750x499]

"The official end of the reform of the reform - by example," ''Rorate Caeli" lamented in its report on Francis' Holy Thursday ritual.

[gutn.net image 750x499]

Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

[gutn.net image 750x499]


Traditionalist Catholics who were attached to the old rite blame many of the ills afflicting the Catholic Church today - a drop in priestly vocations, empty pews in Europe and beyond - on the liturgical abuses that they say have proliferated with the celebration of the new form of Mass.

BZZZZZ...wrong. This shiat has likely been going on for much much longer. You don' get to shift the blame. It is you farkers who blindly supported the priest as the infallible master of ceremonies. That he is the hand of God an all that shiat. It is you who perverted the word of Jesus to the point that this stuff not only could happen but that the bishops saw nothing wrong in doing what they did. Power corrupts and you guys gave them absolute power to do as they wish. It is only now post-V2 that these people are empowered enough to speak-out.

You revel in the pomp and circumstance of the ceremony because of the way it makes you feel "special". Not giving a damn about how unchristian it is. Jesus gladly ate with the worst people you could find in his time. He ate with bums, the sick, prostitutes, tax collectors*, etc. Jesus entire life was spent preaching about everything you fight against. He preached compassion for the poor, humanity for your fellow man, self-evaluation and self-improvement. He preached against prejudice, against elevating others to a higher seat, etc. Vatican II came about NOT because t ...


As Stephen Fry said in the Intelligence Squared Debate:

"Do you know who would be the last person ever to be accepted as a prince of the Church? The Galilean carpenter. That Jew. They would kick him out before he tried to cross the threshold. He would be so ill-at-ease in the Church. What would he think, what would he think of St. Peter's? What would he think of the wealth, and the power, and the self-justification, and the wheedling apologies? The Pope could decide that all this power, all this wealth, this hierarchy of princes and bishops and archbishops and priests and monks and nuns could be sent out in the world with money and art treasures, to put them back in the countries that they once raped and violated, they could give that money away, and they could concentrate on the apparent essence of their belief, and then, I would stand here and say the Catholic Church may well be a force for good in the world, but until that day, it is not. Thank you. "
 
2013-03-30 06:47:58 PM  

likeahawk: "People naturally imitate their leader. That's the whole point behind Jesus washing the disciples' feet. He was explicitly and intentionally setting an example for them," he said. "Pope Francis knows that he is setting an example."

"If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

God humbled himself before man so that men would know to do the same. But God forbid Man humble himself before a woman.....


There were two phrases in the article that amused me. The first was "spittle flecked nutty," which has already been covered. The other was "militant humility."
 
2013-03-30 06:49:49 PM  

Steve Zodiac: Oh goody! Does this mean we get to go on a new Crusade to take back the holy land?


Oddly enough, they're pissed that he seems to want to get along with Muslims.
 
2013-03-30 06:51:16 PM  

WhyteRaven74: The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.


Here's how I think it will go.

Reformers: How about women priests?
Pope: Not a chance.
Traditionalists: Ha ha (think Nelson Muntz)
Pope: Now let's talk about poverty
Traditionalists: Oh shiat.
Reformers: Ha ha (think Nelson Muntz, again)
 
2013-03-30 06:53:22 PM  

tzzhc4: The ironic part is that pretty much sums up Christ's teachings while on Earth. The other stuff before and after is all just tacked on bullcrap from other people.


It is sad but generally true that most fundies and evangelicals ignore the four awkward gospels as far as possible and concentrate on a couple of chapters of Leviticus and a few of Paul's nastier rants.
 
2013-03-30 06:57:40 PM  

ariseatex: He's a different kind of pope.


There's been an argument.
Over Vatican II?
 
2013-03-30 06:59:54 PM  

BMFPitt: He's selling indulgences? How much does one go for these days?


Depends on what you want to indulge in.  Seriously, indulgences were priced according to the severity of the sins.
 
2013-03-30 07:03:35 PM  

the_chief: Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?


Most of those RCs I know are basically "going through the motions" to keep the old folks happy..old folks that have been brainwashed that god will not let them see their loved ones in Heaven once their time is up if they don't follow the rules.  Which kinda blows the whole eternal happiness in heaven thing out of the water.

Once those old crows are dead, you'll see a lot less church going.
 
2013-03-30 07:03:57 PM  

DetrimentalScience: BZZZZZ...wrong. This shiat has likely been going on for much much longer. You don' get to shift the blame. It is you farkers who blindly supported the priest as the infallible master of ceremonies.


If you have a good, tight grip on your sanity, have a look at the Catholic Truth Scotland website and in particular at their newsletters.
 
2013-03-30 07:06:19 PM  

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


Yes (and I'm sure others have already said it because I came in late), but it has stuff that also denigrates women and any non-powerful member of society. Though obviously much of that is in the Pauline letters it is still the NT. While the bible DOES have some good points, it has just as many if not more bad points.  ALL christians pick and cose which parts they follow. Even ALL jews pick and choose which parts they follow of the OT, even the most orthodox of jews, how many stonings of disobedient children or adulterous wves have you heard of i Brooklyn?
 
2013-03-30 07:07:24 PM  
Most Christians would snub Jesus for the homeless religious nut and provocateur he was, the filthy beggar.
 
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