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(WFAA Fort Worth)   Traditional Catholics are outraged that Pope Francis is returning the church to traditional Christianity   (wfaa.com) divider line 206
    More: Obvious, Pope Francis, conservative Catholics, Christianity, traditional Christianity, Vatican II, liturgy, Catholic Church, church law  
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15544 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 3:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 03:50:57 PM
It appears that these traditions enshrined in liturgical law are like  the traditions enshrined in the U. S. Flag Code law, lacking penalties and unenforceable.  None the less, some people take them seriously.
 
2013-03-30 03:52:55 PM

NutWrench: "If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?


I get the feeling that anyone who calls women "females" really doesn't like women.

That's a word that should be reserved for veterinarians and biologists.
 
2013-03-30 03:57:02 PM
The traditionalists need to get the bugs out of their butts.  Vatican II was one of the few sensible things the church did over the last 100 years.  The idea that the decline of the church can be blamed on modernizing is moronic, it's the fusty insistence on Latin and outdated traditions that was killing them.  Making the church less accessible to the average churchgoer was NOT helping, Benedict had his head way up his own ass.
 
2013-03-30 03:58:32 PM

rkiller1: He's a different kind of pope, all together.


He's a different kind of pope.
 
2013-03-30 03:58:46 PM

enry: markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.

The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


Well, that and if you don't follow our religion, you are going to be punished for all eternity, even though you were created with the omniscient being already know if you were going to sin or not

/for all of the terrible things in the old testament, they don't punish the dead
//from what we have seen, I like the new pope and am hopeful that he can make even bigger changes, but he has a long way to go
 
2013-03-30 04:00:53 PM
What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-30 04:02:40 PM

LDM90: NutWrench: "If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.

Look, just say, "girls have cooties" ok?

I get the feeling that anyone who calls women "females" really doesn't like women.

That's a word that should be reserved for veterinarians and biologists.


and Ferengi.
 
2013-03-30 04:03:23 PM
This heathen/Panthiest is liking this Pope.  He may save Christianity.  From themselves.
 
2013-03-30 04:05:56 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The traditionalists need to get the bugs out of their butts.  Vatican II was one of the few sensible things the church did over the last 100 years.  The idea that the decline of the church can be blamed on modernizing is moronic, it's the fusty insistence on Latin and outdated traditions that was killing them.  Making the church less accessible to the average churchgoer was NOT helping, Benedict had his head way up his own ass.


Also, it's religion, which doesn't exactly help.
 
2013-03-30 04:11:27 PM
I was having a discussion with a cow-orker about the time Benedict was resigning. I am basically a lapsed catholic... ok atheist(so I don't really have a dog in the hunt but I was answering questions.), he is not catholic.

I said that a pope doesn't simply resign... at least not in the last 600 years (and usually under some duress), they serve until they die. He asked why. One thing I said was because now there will be two popes (at least in some peoples minds.)

I said that I was sure there wouldn't be any problems and that the new pope would probably be just as traditional as Benedict and it'll all go smoothly.

But as a hypothetical, I asked, what if the new pope comes in and starts ruffling the cardinal's feathers? (pun semi-intentional) What if he proposes massive changes. He's the pope... he can do that. What if this filters down and a significant portion of the church hierarchy is uncomfortable with these changes? What if the people themselves don't like the changes?

Now it looks like Francis has some new ideas. What if they get even more out of line with the mainstream?

Could there be a movement to bring back Benedict? What if Benedict himself asks for a do-over because he is displeased with changes being made. He was elected pope by the cardinals, who believe they are doing the will of god... he was selected to be god's spokesman on earth and leader of the church until death... and now suddenly he isn't because of one man's decision, his own?

Might be interesting to watch.

/tl;dr
 
2013-03-30 04:12:21 PM

clancifer: So the problem is with the Christians themselves?


Considering what makes folks get uptight, i'd say that's a big yep
 
2013-03-30 04:13:55 PM
"Do not do to your neighbor what is hateful when done to you. All else is commentary."
 
2013-03-30 04:16:03 PM
Anyone who has ever met and had a good conversation with a Jesuit knew this Pope was going to cause a constant stream of minor outrages over breaking with the status quo from the moment he was chosen. Those guys really do seem to take a lot of this symbolism stuff seriously.

Of course, it's only a matter of time before he outrages all the folks currently getting a good laugh out of this by symbolically maintaining some other part of the status quo.
 
2013-03-30 04:18:58 PM
the_chief : Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?

I don't know, but I figure it has something to do with money.
I'm a Catholic who goes to church every week. I really don't give a flying f*ck whose feet the pope washes.
The earth will still revolve around the sun no matter what the pope does.
 
2013-03-30 04:20:11 PM
This whole Pope business is some creepy shiat, yo.
 
2013-03-30 04:21:29 PM
It's an organization plagued by a system of abuses, i find it good that the traditionalists have their panties up in a bunch
 
2013-03-30 04:23:31 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"


from near as I can tell, in many cases traditionalist means flaming asshole in any context
 
2013-03-30 04:24:08 PM

varmitydog: the_chief : Why does anybody give a damn about this crap?

I don't know, but I figure it has something to do with money.
I'm a Catholic who goes to church every week. I really don't give a flying f*ck whose feet the pope washes.
The earth will still revolve around the sun no matter what the pope does.


Now THAT is an interesting turn of phrase.

/The fact that around 1/6 of the world are at his beck and call might also have to do with why people care
 
2013-03-30 04:24:51 PM

rkiller1: He's a different kind of pope, all together.


He's a different kind of pope.
 
2013-03-30 04:27:33 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x427]


You're confusing "Conservative" with "Traditional".
They are far from the same thing. Although the conservatives like to claim they are traditionalist, the conservative Catholic movement - like the conservative evangelical movement- is a relatively new phenomena. Opus Dei is less than 100 years old and has only been recognized by the Catholic church since 1950. By Catholic standards, that's not a tradition: that's a fad.

Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:

textualfisticuffs.com
 
2013-03-30 04:27:59 PM
Headline attention whoring. Actual article: Rules lawyer says Pope ignored minor rules, since he can just change them anyway it doesn't matter much, but please do so.

Every Catholic I know thinks new Pope is awesome. Headline = crap.
 
2013-03-30 04:28:11 PM

Silverstaff: OtherLittleGuy: Next thing you know, he'll be healing the sick on the Sabbath and be in the company of tax collectors.

I'm quite sure that acting like that is NOT tolerated by these traditionalists.  They have a very long, proud heritage of being obsessed with Divine Law above all else, and ensuring that they hold everyone, even God Himself, to the absolute literal wording of the law.

It's fair to see that this tradition is much older than Christianity, the modern ultraconservative Catholics are just the newest version of this school of thought.

/Not Catholic
//Finding Pope Francis pretty cool so far though


I can see these folks telling God that he's wrong, and that the procedures were more important then the whole point of the exercise

sort of reminds me of the guys who had a beef with Jesus in the bible
 
2013-03-30 04:28:34 PM

FloydA: FTA:  Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church. ...Virtually everything he has done since being elected pope, every gesture, every decision, has rankled traditionalists in one way or another.

Good.


Agreed. I think the RCC is about to discover why they haven't had a Jesuit pope before.
 
2013-03-30 04:28:42 PM
I'm not the most religious guy.
But I'm liking the new guy.

Instead of "I'm leading 1.2 billion" he's thinking "I'm blessed to serve 1.2 billion".
 
2013-03-30 04:32:02 PM

enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.


The problem with the Bible is that it says all sorts of other shiat too, a lot of which isn't good, charitable, equitable, or just. The Bible needs some serious downsizing for consistency's sake. Christianity would be better served if it just tossed the entire Old Testament out the window. There is nothing of value there that isn't inferred from the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful, petty, and cruel - the God of the New Testament seems like a much cooler guy.
 
2013-03-30 04:32:05 PM
Nice attention-getting headline but yeah, I wasn't seeing much outrage, more like "This could lead to confusion about what the policy is."
 
2013-03-30 04:32:15 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: I'll join the dirty papists if they'll let me be an inquisitor.


No one's expecting that!
 
2013-03-30 04:33:40 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Is "traditionalist" some weird Liturgical Latin word for "flaming asshole?"


Yes.
 
2013-03-30 04:33:47 PM

LargeCanine: Headline attention whoring. Actual article: Rules lawyer says Pope ignored minor rules, since he can just change them anyway it doesn't matter much, but please do so.

Every Catholic I know thinks new Pope is awesome. Headline = crap.


Ah, wait I missed that

a rules lawyer decided to argue with his GM, well we know how those sort of campaigns turn out
 
2013-03-30 04:34:06 PM

orbister: I think the RCC is about to discover why they haven't had a Jesuit pope before.


I certainly hope. It'll be fun watching the very same people who have previously said the Pope's authority is absolute all of a sudden screaming about the Pope not playing by the rules.

R.A.Danny: Instead of "I'm leading 1.2 billion" he's thinking "I'm blessed to serve 1.2 billion".


The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.
 
2013-03-30 04:34:23 PM
Wonder how long until the Pope Francis brings up whitewashed sepulchers?
 
2013-03-30 04:36:40 PM
Traditional Catholics can get farked.

Not literally, of course, unless they happen to be short a kid.
 
2013-03-30 04:36:40 PM
Predicting a papal sudden death in 3...2...1...
 
2013-03-30 04:38:53 PM

RenownedCurator: "This could lead to confusion about what the policy is."


It doesn't lead to any confusion at all, the Pope by his own actions has shown what the policy is. As Pope he alone decides it, unless he were to ask for the counsel of others in deciding it. But on this matter at least, he seems perfectly content to decide it on his own. As he is free to do as Pope.
 
2013-03-30 04:39:05 PM

ScreamingHangover: Forbidden Doughnut: What a "Traditional Catholic" may look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x427]

You're confusing "Conservative" with "Traditional".
They are far from the same thing. Although the conservatives like to claim they are traditionalist, the conservative Catholic movement - like the conservative evangelical movement- is a relatively new phenomena. Opus Dei is less than 100 years old and has only been recognized by the Catholic church since 1950. By Catholic standards, that's not a tradition: that's a fad.

Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:

[textualfisticuffs.com image 220x300]


....I stand corrected.
 
2013-03-30 04:39:05 PM

ukexpat: Predicting a papal sudden death in 3...2...1...


If something like that happened, I'd imagine South and Central Americans and other folks in the new world getting very pissed off
 
2013-03-30 04:39:12 PM

markie_farkie: Organized religion is the biggest power and money grab ever invented by man..

If it were up to me, the bible would be:

1.  Don't be a dick
2.  Quietly help those who are unable to help themselves
3.  Be thankful for what, and who you have in your life.


The ironic part is that pretty much sums up Christ's teachings while on Earth. The other stuff before and after is all just tacked on bullcrap from other people.

nhne-pulse.org
 
2013-03-30 04:39:56 PM
"People naturally imitate their leader. That's the whole point behind Jesus washing the disciples' feet. He was explicitly and intentionally setting an example for them," he said. "Pope Francis knows that he is setting an example."

"If someone is washing the feet of any females ... he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics," Peters wrote in a 2006 article that he reposted earlier this month on his blog.


God humbled himself before man so that men would know to do the same. But God forbid Man humble himself before a woman.....
 
2013-03-30 04:40:05 PM
Proves my theory that I've said time and time again... that "Traditional Catholics" are all about the "pomp and circumstance" and not about the religion - probably not saved either - and arrogant as well. Instead of focusing on the pageantry and crap, they need to actually crack open a Bible and find out how God actually intended them to worship and stop with the graven images and other sins against God they have committed.

A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".  But yet this was a person who would turn around and yell and scream at everyone, calling them worthless and in so many words telling them that they were "damned and going to hell" because we were not Catholics (I happened to be a Baptist). I did not see him as a person who was a Christian by any means.  He totally missed the point of being a true Christian and probably was not saved either, nor did he show Christian companionship or friendship and set a brotherly example in the faith. People who are like that do not cast the Catholic church in a good light at all and show me and the rest of the world how un-Christian a lot of Catholics are these days, bordering on brain-washed CULT.
 
2013-03-30 04:40:27 PM

tortilla burger: enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

The problem with the Bible is that it says all sorts of other shiat too, a lot of which isn't good, charitable, equitable, or just. The Bible needs some serious downsizing for consistency's sake. Christianity would be better served if it just tossed the entire Old Testament out the window. There is nothing of value there that isn't inferred from the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful, petty, and cruel - the God of the New Testament seems like a much cooler guy.


The "New Testament" doesn't work without the lineage of Jesus back to David, the fulfillment of the scriptures, etc., and there's multiple ties back to the other pieces of the Bible.  Yes, for a lot of Christians (who barely read the Bible as it is), you could get rid of the "Old" Testament.  However, the "New" Testament still needs the "Old" part.

ScreamingHangover: Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:

 You can divorce pieces of the Catholic church from the charity as much as you like, but "Conservative Catholics" are helping build the schools as much as the "Traditional Catholics". Everyone owns their own piece of the doctrine, and the debate over who/what Catholics are.


And just because some "Traditional Catholics" might be pro-abortion, and some "Conservative Catholics" might be pro-death penalty doesn't make either side right.
 
2013-03-30 04:42:25 PM

hinten: The Catholic Pope is not conservative enough for American protestants whose religion was started by protesting the Catholic church's conservative stance.


Only if your talking about Divorce. In reality the protestants fled to America because the Catholic church didn't let them practice their crazy fundamentalism enough. Essentially Luthers theses was about Lutherans wanting to live their life guilty and feeling remorse for everything they had done. The Catholic church had become too liberal.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses
 
2013-03-30 04:42:26 PM

LtDarkstar: A previous boss of mine who owned a very small company (of 3-4 employees or so) was one of these uber-traditional-Catholics who was all about the ceremony. He did weird stuff around the office and even wrote with chalk above the doors in some obscure-ceremony he insisted he do to protect the office from "sin".


Catholicism is weird in that is the only form of Christianity that allows for folk magic like that, and even some hermeticism. Of course if you told your boss he was doing a magical spell, he'd look at you like YOU were the crazy one.
 
2013-03-30 04:43:44 PM

Steve Zodiac: Oh goody! Does this mean we get to go on a new Crusade to take back the holy land?


The Jews and Muslims have that sewn up right now.

/*runs*
 
2013-03-30 04:46:14 PM

WhyteRaven74: The real fun starts when/if he tells all the bishops "You do not lead, you serve". Cause some of them aren't gonna like that they're basically being told to stop bossing people around and making demands and instead listen.


Oh but they will be leading, my friend. by example. They will show us all how to sacrifice, how to give, how to serve.
 
2013-03-30 04:46:15 PM

legion_of_doo: tortilla burger: enry: The bible (New Testament) pretty much says all that.

The problem with the Bible is that it says all sorts of other shiat too, a lot of which isn't good, charitable, equitable, or just. The Bible needs some serious downsizing for consistency's sake. Christianity would be better served if it just tossed the entire Old Testament out the window. There is nothing of value there that isn't inferred from the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful, petty, and cruel - the God of the New Testament seems like a much cooler guy.

The "New Testament" doesn't work without the lineage of Jesus back to David, the fulfillment of the scriptures, etc., and there's multiple ties back to the other pieces of the Bible.  Yes, for a lot of Christians (who barely read the Bible as it is), you could get rid of the "Old" Testament.  However, the "New" Testament still needs the "Old" part.

ScreamingHangover: Conservative Catholics argue over doctrine.
Traditional Catholics build schools and hospitals.
This is what a Traditional (non-conservative) Catholic may look like:
 You can divorce pieces of the Catholic church from the charity as much as you like, but "Conservative Catholics" are helping build the schools as much as the "Traditional Catholics". Everyone owns their own piece of the doctrine, and the debate over who/what Catholics are.


And just because some "Traditional Catholics" might be pro-abortion, and some "Conservative Catholics" might be pro-death penalty doesn't make either side right.


Thank you for reinforcing my distinction between Traditional and conservative Catholics while at the same time providing a perfect example of conservative nitpicking.
 
2013-03-30 04:49:30 PM

Mrtraveler01: Francis' decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls - a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic - during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.

Thank God! Does this mean we'll stop doing stupid BS like reword the Catholic liturgy to make it even sound less sense than it did before?


Probably.  It took them over a decade to come up with the usage that was adopted a few years ago.
 
2013-03-30 04:55:11 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The traditionalists need to get the bugs out of their butts.  Vatican II was one of the few sensible things the church did over the last 100 years.  The idea that the decline of the church can be blamed on modernizing is moronic, it's the fusty insistence on Latin and outdated traditions that was killing them.  Making the church less accessible to the average churchgoer was NOT helping, Benedict had his head way up his own ass.


They should remember a great impetus behind Vatican II, as well as parallel reformations among mainline Protestants:  the continent that considered itself the bulwark of Christianity launched into a general bloodletting in 1914, followed by one that was even worse in 1939.
 
2013-03-30 04:57:42 PM
So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?  I like him more and more.
 
2013-03-30 04:58:22 PM

vrax: So, conservatives are displeased with this new pope?


Nope.
 
2013-03-30 04:59:15 PM
Sounds like the GOP could also benefit from finding their own Pope Francis these days.
 
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