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(Yahoo)   So what do the Hindenburg and the new San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge span have in common?   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 80
    More: Fail, San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge, San Francisco, Labor Day, Loma Prieta, hydrogen, Department of Transportation, San Francisco-Oakland  
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15552 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 8:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 01:41:10 AM
The lowest bidder?
 
2013-03-30 01:48:32 AM
Neither of them have ever been in my kitchen
 
2013-03-30 02:21:19 AM
they're both bigger than a bread box?
 
2013-03-30 06:11:15 AM
I know, they both have the same number of letters in their name.
 
2013-03-30 08:05:36 AM
Manatees?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-30 08:15:41 AM
If you see either in New Jersey, something has gone horribly wrong.
 
2013-03-30 08:52:00 AM
That's the nature of engineering. Nothing is perfect, and at least in this case the manufacturer owned it.
 
2013-03-30 08:59:45 AM
That's some fine American craftsmanship there, Lou.
 
2013-03-30 09:01:36 AM
Neither was humiliated by Syracuse--FRIGGIN' SYRACUSE--in the tournament

*shaking fist*
 
2013-03-30 09:01:39 AM
Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?
 
2013-03-30 09:04:37 AM

fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?


they got a lot of the steel from china, but that was for  the structure and foundation.  The bolts that are breaking right now came from Ohio
 
2013-03-30 09:04:58 AM

fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?


I remember hearing that as well, but the FTA says that this is from an Ohio based company. But they could have outsourced as well.
 
2013-03-30 09:05:14 AM
Are they both shaped like huge manatees?
 
2013-03-30 09:05:53 AM
Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  The truth is...
 The contractor was the lowest bidder and in situations like this, the contractor has no choice of the material used because it's specified in the contract.  Along with with the paint used, lights, just about everything used is dictated to the contractor where to buy and from whom, model #, etc.
 
2013-03-30 09:10:27 AM
Oh the Hue Manatee!
 
2013-03-30 09:14:35 AM
It seems half-Hindenburg and half-Titanic to me.  Weak steel because of hydrogen kind of hints at both previous tragedies at the same time for a land-sea-air failure trifecta.

/Oh the huge manatee.
 
2013-03-30 09:15:35 AM
Apart from the fail tag?
 
2013-03-30 09:16:22 AM

ZAZ: If you see either in New Jersey, something has gone horribly wrong.


Well played sir, well played.
 
2013-03-30 09:17:37 AM
Whatever flaws there were in the steel were enlarged by the exposure to trapped hydrogen. If the hydrogen isn't released, bolts fail, or in this case steel rods. You can reduce the risk, but you can't eliminate it. It happens with domestic steel too. So, the answer to the headline in my view is, poor manufacturing process design.
 
2013-03-30 09:21:20 AM
Isn't this the same failure that happened on the big dig in Boston, where the concrete panels popped out of the tunnel walls?
 
2013-03-30 09:21:49 AM
Theyre both farking close to water?
 
2013-03-30 09:23:39 AM

CaptSacto: Neither of them have ever been in my kitchen


Thank you, Cliff.
 
2013-03-30 09:24:19 AM
"They are working on an engineering solution for those bolts."

Aren't engineers the dolts that suggested the bolts?

/Correct answer is: Neither will flush.
 
2013-03-30 09:24:44 AM

RaceDTruck: Isn't this the same failure that happened on the big dig in Boston, where the concrete panels popped out of the tunnel walls?


No, in that case you had bolts that were glued into the substrate with epoxy - they had used substandard epoxy and the bolts were too short.
 
2013-03-30 09:29:54 AM
live and learn, kids.
 
2013-03-30 09:35:37 AM
The bolts may have been made in North America, but I'm thinking that it's more than likely that the steel was cheap Chinese crap.
 
2013-03-30 09:37:53 AM

PacificaFitz: fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?

they got a lot of the steel from china, but that was for  the structure and foundation.  The bolts that are breaking right now came from Ohio


And the steel parts from China was overseen by CalTrans engineers sent to China. I know someone that was there for over a year (or maybe it just seemed like it) working away.
 
2013-03-30 09:39:32 AM

poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  The truth is...
 The contractor was the lowest bidder and in situations like this, the contractor has no choice of the material used because it's specified in the contract.  Along with with the paint used, lights, just about everything used is dictated to the contractor where to buy and from whom, model #, etc.


The california government didn't call for H in the bolts, they just picked the contractor who was likely to deliver crap. I'd also like to point out these are the same decision makers liberals are counting on to engineer a perfect society.
 
2013-03-30 09:41:56 AM

fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?


If Ohio is in China, then yes.
Union quality to the rescue!
 
2013-03-30 09:42:39 AM
They were both inflated with flammable hydrogen and not totally safe helium?
 
2013-03-30 09:50:36 AM

moshi8: PacificaFitz: fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?

they got a lot of the steel from china, but that was for  the structure and foundation.  The bolts that are breaking right now came from Ohio

And the steel parts from China was overseen by CalTrans engineers sent to China. I know someone that was there for over a year (or maybe it just seemed like it) working away.


Its amazing that they'd use Chinese steel for this project.
 
2013-03-30 09:55:08 AM

relcec: poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  The truth is...
 The contractor was the lowest bidder and in situations like this, the contractor has no choice of the material used because it's specified in the contract.  Along with with the paint used, lights, just about everything used is dictated to the contractor where to buy and from whom, model #, etc.

The california government didn't call for H in the bolts, they just picked the contractor who was likely to deliver crap. I'd also like to point out these are the same decision makers liberals are counting on to engineer a perfect society.


Really? Legislators = bridge engineers?
I must say, it's once again proof of California's forward thinking. If legislators can do that job, there's no need to keep the Caltrans engineers on the payroll = saving tax payer money.
If they continue like that, I might move back there again.

/or not
 
2013-03-30 10:04:10 AM

Animatronik: moshi8: PacificaFitz: fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?

they got a lot of the steel from china, but that was for  the structure and foundation.  The bolts that are breaking right now came from Ohio

And the steel parts from China was overseen by CalTrans engineers sent to China. I know someone that was there for over a year (or maybe it just seemed like it) working away.

Its amazing that they'd use Chinese steel for this project.


The General Contractor for the whole bridge job is a Chinese firm. Thank you, Ahnold.

When are we going to learn? Chinese engineering is a joke. There's a reason why they cannot import any of their cars to any European country, and theres a reason why they see 50,000 or more people killed every time theres an earthquake. Apartment buildings, and I mean really big ones, regularly spontaneously collapse in China several times a year.

We really need to return steel production to the US. We have the ore, and we have the people with the know-how.
 
2013-03-30 10:05:06 AM
Oakland and San Francisco can  actually get something done? Welcome in the Jew hate.
 
2013-03-30 10:08:01 AM

Galoop: CaptSacto: Neither of them have ever been in my kitchen

Thank you, Cliff.


I knew that sounded familiar.
 
2013-03-30 10:15:45 AM
So they're Ohio made. American quality isn't anything great. It used to be, but that was when companies thought it was a good idea to hire enough people to do the job.
 
2013-03-30 10:16:08 AM
Neither fly well when on fire?
 
2013-03-30 10:21:18 AM
FTA:  The company that made the pieces that failed is Painesville, Ohio-based Dyson Corp.

Maybe they should stick to making vacuum cleaners, fans and hand dryers.
 
2013-03-30 10:23:39 AM
Hydrogen embrittlement. Its a new thing you probably never heard of it
 
2013-03-30 10:26:51 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-30 10:28:26 AM
Both designed by Nazis to showcase superior German engineering?

//got nothing
//all the obvious guesses were taken
//oh the huge-span-ity?
 
2013-03-30 10:28:36 AM

Deathfrogg: When are we going to learn? Chinese engineering is a joke. There's a reason why they cannot import any of their cars to any European country, and theres a reason why they see 50,000 or more people killed every time theres an earthquake. Apartment buildings, and I mean really big ones, regularly spontaneously collapse in China several times a year.

We really need to return steel production to the US. We have the ore, and we have the people with the know-how.


Amen. That doesn't only go for steel production, though.
Unfortunately, too many people aren't willing to pay a bit more for a locally made product and don't realize they frequently end up spending more in repair, replacement and injuries.
 
2013-03-30 10:40:45 AM

Deathfrogg: Animatronik: moshi8: PacificaFitz: fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?

they got a lot of the steel from china, but that was for  the structure and foundation.  The bolts that are breaking right now came from Ohio

And the steel parts from China was overseen by CalTrans engineers sent to China. I know someone that was there for over a year (or maybe it just seemed like it) working away.

Its amazing that they'd use Chinese steel for this project.

The General Contractor for the whole bridge job is a Chinese firm. Thank you, Ahnold.

When are we going to learn? Chinese engineering is a joke. There's a reason why they cannot import any of their cars to any European country, and theres a reason why they see 50,000 or more people killed every time theres an earthquake. Apartment buildings, and I mean really big ones, regularly spontaneously collapse in China several times a year.

We really need to return steel production to the US. We have the ore, and we have the people with the know-how.


Been to Bethlehem lately? Its a casino
 
2013-03-30 10:42:13 AM
They both caught fire because the doping compound used in both was essentially the same as rocket fuel so the Nazis launched a cover-up blaming hydrogen?
 
2013-03-30 10:53:16 AM
 
2013-03-30 11:02:38 AM
They were both long and hard?
 
2013-03-30 11:14:39 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: They were both long and hard?


winner
 
2013-03-30 11:19:42 AM
Like I commented in the Reddit thread on this, if the design of this bridge is such that slightly defective materials are going to cause it to fall apart, then the bridge has been designed poorly. This bridge (and all modern constructions) should be designed to use the crappiest materials available just to build in extra safety and longevity. Overbuild overbuild overbuild. The costs of doing so are wildly overshadowed by reduced maintenance and the need for replacement more frequently. This bridge is crap and I, for one, will not be crossing it.
 
2013-03-30 11:20:19 AM

poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  ........


Always wonder about that little bit of cognitive dissonance here on Fark. I've previously noticed that some of the same people complaining about that were also the ones whining about Haliburton getting no-bid contracts.
 
2013-03-30 11:22:40 AM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  ........

Always wonder about that little bit of cognitive dissonance here on Fark. I've previously noticed that some of the same people complaining about that were also the ones whining about Haliburton getting no-bid contracts.


Not that I've complained about either but do you really not see why both are problems?
 
2013-03-30 11:23:30 AM
So the boltmaker probably failed in their quality control at the raw material level...
But then according to wikipedia there's no ASTM test for this...
 
2013-03-30 11:26:14 AM

SurelyShirley: Really? Legislators = bridge engineers?
I must say, it's once again proof of California's forward thinking. If legislators can do that job, there's no need to keep the Caltrans engineers on the payroll = saving tax payer money.
If they continue like that, I might move back there again.


There were some news articles about CalTrans inspection engineers getting paid for inspecting things, but not actually ever doing any work.  And they still got full benes (retirement) after being canned.  I read it in the Comical (err, ah, the Chronicle) even. Not exactly a bastion of radical conservative thought.

Between the likelihood of kickbacks from the "lowest bid" contractor (it's California, after all) & recent history of non-inspecting CalTrans inspectors, I'm totally not shocked that something that they could have tested for (long before the bolts were sealed in concrete) was missed by CalTrans.
 
2013-03-30 11:27:56 AM

fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China.


Careful, that's racist.
 
2013-03-30 11:32:45 AM
They're due to dock in New Jersey?
 
2013-03-30 11:35:00 AM
Both traffic in Deutsch?
 
2013-03-30 11:40:31 AM
I don't know, but you can make this anagram from them:

Hydrogen gas in CA burns block in a bad fire, Dan.
 
2013-03-30 11:54:45 AM
Northridge earthquake damage was fixed in a year or so.  Been 20+ years since Loma Prieta and we're still waiting.  And you wonder why some favor splitting CA in two
 
2013-03-30 12:05:11 PM
Actually this is a great idea in bridge building.  Sure steel is strong, but if you add something lighter than air to it, it will try to float like a balloon.  They were trying to make a true suspension bridge.  One that the only thing holding it to the ground is the roadbed.
 
2013-03-30 12:12:14 PM
I can't believe they didn't test the bolts before using them in a bridge. Doing random tests on representative samples for quality assurance would be the minimum level of due diligence. When the Brooklyn Bridge was built they let the manufacturer of the wire for the suspension cable choose and submit the samples and they kept resubmitting the same good steel while using inferior steel in the actual cable until they got caught at which time they made them add good steel wire to make up for it.
 
2013-03-30 12:18:14 PM

OscarTamerz: I can't believe they didn't test the bolts before using them in a bridge. Doing random tests on representative samples for quality assurance would be the minimum level of due diligence. When the Brooklyn Bridge was built they let the manufacturer of the wire for the suspension cable choose and submit the samples and they kept resubmitting the same good steel while using inferior steel in the actual cable until they got caught at which time they made them add good steel wire to make up for it.


They said they did a random sample, I think. They didn't test every bolt, but they did test, according to CalTrans.

How legit the sample was (i.e. one bolt, or a statistically representative sample), and if the tests were actually performed or not, that's up to your faith in CalTrans.
 
2013-03-30 12:46:19 PM
Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem when you try to electroplate these high tensile steels, but someone probably thought they had the cadmium plating process right. But some slightly wrong electrochemistry there will eat your lunch and profit margins.
 
2013-03-30 12:51:31 PM

CrashRhinoceros: Like I commented in the Reddit thread on this, if the design of this bridge is such that slightly defective materials are going to cause it to fall apart, then the bridge has been designed poorly. This bridge (and all modern constructions) should be designed to use the crappiest materials available just to build in extra safety and longevity. Overbuild overbuild overbuild. The costs of doing so are wildly overshadowed by reduced maintenance and the need for replacement more frequently. This bridge is crap and I, for one, will not be crossing it.


Another item to add the list of "Great Ideas that will Never Happen" because it's not in anyone's interest (who matters) to do this.  So you just need more of all the poor materials and it still ends up costing a lot.  Best to just go on the cheap and think happy thoughts.
 
2013-03-30 01:11:54 PM

Watubi: Northridge earthquake damage was fixed in a year or so.  Been 20+ years since Loma Prieta and we're still waiting.  And you wonder why some favor splitting CA in two


Your analogy doesn't make any sense. The collapsed portion of the Bay Bridge was fixed as fast as the collapsed portion of the 10 freeway. If they had been required to replace the entire freeway from downtown to Santa Monica, then you might have a more equal comparison.

And if you want to claim that SoCal can't do stupid, remember that the collapsed overpass on the 10 had been scheduled for earthquake retrofit, but they wanted to rebuild it quickly, so they built it to the old standards, then had to retrofit it again anyway.
 
2013-03-30 01:28:24 PM

poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  The truth is...
 The contractor was the lowest bidder and in situations like this, the contractor has no choice of the material used because it's specified in the contract.  Along with with the paint used, lights, just about everything used is dictated to the contractor where to buy and from whom, model #, etc.


Yes, and part of that specification was a certain tolerance and tinsel strength, which the bolts have failed.  Additionally, they failed AFTER installation in such a way that they can't actually be replaced.  No one knows how they are going to fix this, since the section of road is already installed and they can't just take it back out to replace the shoddy steel.
 
2013-03-30 01:48:50 PM

Mokmo: So the boltmaker probably failed in their quality control at the raw material level...


Hydrogen embrittlement typically happens later, during processing. One common route is during galvanising. The material is pickled in acid to remove rust, some of the acid remains on the metal and then the hot dip drives it into the underlying material.
 
2013-03-30 01:54:45 PM
grokca: Manatees?

Ding, threads done
 
2013-03-30 02:12:36 PM

CrashRhinoceros: , if the design of this bridge is such that slightly defective materials are going to cause it to fall apart,


Guess what? That's every bridge ever. One of the limiting factors to bridge design has been the fact that it wasn't possible to produce steel with certain properties AND without impurities that would limit said properties. This was particularly the case with suspension bridges where you need steel with just insane tensile strength but to actually have that you need to make sure the steel doesn't have any impurities, which isn't exactly the easiest thing to achieve.
 
2013-03-30 02:37:55 PM
Deathfrogg:
The General Contractor for the whole bridge job is a Chinese firm. Thank you, Ahnold.

The General Contractor on the job is Fluor/American Bridge JV.  Which of those is Chinese?
 
2013-03-30 02:48:33 PM
they did use Chinese steel but the bolts are from Ohio
 
2013-03-30 02:51:48 PM

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: they did use Chinese steel but the bolts are from Ohio


Maybe the company in Ohio is Chinese, and they hired Chinamen to make the bolts, and they had Chinese food for lunch.

In Chinese-made lunch cartons.
 
2013-03-30 03:11:58 PM

legion_of_doo: E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: they did use Chinese steel but the bolts are from Ohio

Maybe the company in Ohio is Chinese, and they hired Chinamen to make the bolts, and they had Chinese food for lunch.

In Chinese-made lunch cartons.


They don't staple those anymore. Probably so they're microwavable.
 
2013-03-30 03:56:16 PM
I'll take the extra time and miles to go around the Bay Area rather than ever take that farking bridge.
 
2013-03-30 06:35:44 PM
They were both flaming?
 
2013-03-30 07:04:44 PM

legion_of_doo: OscarTamerz: I can't believe they didn't test the bolts before using them in a bridge. Doing random tests on representative samples for quality assurance would be the minimum level of due diligence. When the Brooklyn Bridge was built they let the manufacturer of the wire for the suspension cable choose and submit the samples and they kept resubmitting the same good steel while using inferior steel in the actual cable until they got caught at which time they made them add good steel wire to make up for it.

They said they did a random sample, I think. They didn't test every bolt, but they did test, according to CalTrans.

How legit the sample was (i.e. one bolt, or a statistically representative sample), and if the tests were actually performed or not, that's up to your faith in CalTrans.


So the supplier paid off the contractor and Caltrans. Got it.
 
Ral
2013-03-30 08:20:24 PM
That's what they get for buying the steel from Orren Boyle.
 
2013-03-30 10:32:40 PM

Oldiron_79: grokca: Manatees?

Ding, threads done


Be careful, for the apostrophe Nazis lurk everywhere.
 
2013-03-31 01:30:18 AM

relcec: poe_zlaw: Oh. is this where everyone complains about "lowest bidder"?  The truth is...
 The contractor was the lowest bidder and in situations like this, the contractor has no choice of the material used because it's specified in the contract.  Along with with the paint used, lights, just about everything used is dictated to the contractor where to buy and from whom, model #, etc.

The california government didn't call for H in the bolts, they just picked the contractor who was likely to deliver crap. I'd also like to point out these are the same decision makers liberals are counting on to engineer a perfect society.


If CalTrans was put in charge of the state, things might actually start working reasonably well again. Their financial and reliability track record on large and small projects is better than most states'.

Also, if CalTrans was in charge, this stupid bridge fiasco would never have happened. They wanted a plain cheap surface-hugging span, not a mind-bogglingly expensive suspension bridge that no ship is ever going to sail under. That one gets pinned on Jerry Brown, and all the legislators who wanted a crowning achievement on their resume.
 
2013-03-31 04:33:12 AM

desertfool: fat boy: Read a comment that they used cheap steel from China. Anyone know if true?

I remember hearing that as well, but the FTA says that this is from an Ohio based company. But they could have outsourced as well.


Either way, the Chinese steel only makes it worse.
 
2013-03-31 08:59:57 AM
rkiller1: Oldiron_79: grokca: Manatees?

Ding, threads done

Be careful, for the apostrophe Nazis lurk everywhere.


Illinois Apostrophe Nazis? I farking hate apostrophe Nazis.
 
2013-03-31 01:01:55 PM
"A View To A Kill" with Christopher Walken?
 
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