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(WSBTV)   Thirty-five Atlanta Public Schools educators, including principals, superintendents and teachers, indicted on racketeering charges for changing answers on state exams of students in order to meet standards. They face 45 years in prison   (wsbtv.com) divider line 52
    More: Fail, Atlanta Public Schools, Atlanta, standards, racketeering charges, U.S. Department of Education, racketeering, assistant principal, superintendent  
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5861 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 1:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-29 10:56:56 PM
11 votes:
Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."
2013-03-30 01:22:05 AM
5 votes:
That's what happens when our educational system has more to do with mindless SAT scores than actual lessons.
2013-03-30 01:03:58 AM
5 votes:
Some kids need to be left behind.  Everyone isn't college material.  Part of the reason that we compare so poorly to other countries on test scores is because they start to weed out the trash collectors, fine arts majors and nursing home workers early on.  There's nothing wrong with those career paths, but those folks don't need to be taking the SAT.
2013-03-30 01:32:15 AM
4 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.


How about we just fund schools so they all have at least the basics and hire enough quality teachers. The lets try to let the teachers teach instead of programming kids for standardized tests. I know crazy idea right?
2013-03-30 02:35:20 AM
3 votes:
I know that we like to think of ourselves here as part of the scum of the Internet, but Fark very likely has a higher-than-average intelligence level among its visitors.  One of the Headline of the Week nominees this year made use of the pun on "heavy water" and referenced Robert Oppenheimer -- uneducated people don't know what heavy water is nor who Robert Oppenheimer is, yet we got the joke.

It was suggested earlier in the thread that America switch to the European-style system of filtering out which kids will succeed in school and separating accordingly.  This is a nice approach, but not perfect.  I agree that America needs more vocational schools, replacing some of the current college infrastructure.

However, the rigid system in Europe has downsides.  I was really bad in school, because I didn't care.  I hated homework that I just didn't do it if I could get away with it.  Despite having excellent test scores, I probably would have been kept at the lower levels in the European systems, even though I seem to have genius-level intelligence.  Instead of homework, I spent my time at home doing things like reverse engineering video games, eventually leading to my programming job.
2013-03-30 02:32:36 AM
3 votes:
I miss how things were when I was in school.  We had standardized testing since like the first grade, but it was just two tests a year, both in the second semester, there was almost no prep work and we never knew the results of the test.  In the fifth grade my teacher had a fit over one of the questions because it covered hydraulics and he ranted about that question, pulled out the curriculum books off the shelf and passed them around and said "Look, there is nothing in the fifth grade curriculum concerning hydraulics..." and continued his rant.

The only standardized tests that mattered where in high school.  It was just a state issued test covering reading, writing and math.  You had to pass all three to graduate, but if you passed the one section and failed the other two, you only had to retake the parts you missed.  But even then there was almost no prep work for it.  The attitude was mostly "These are basic things you should already know."

The attitude right now that these tests are the most important thing in schools right now is really going to fark things up for everyone.  We already have this story of teachers who are facing a longer prison term than drug dealers, but that's not where it will end.  My friend's son told me how during testing period, the school goes into a kind of lock down mode a couple of weeks leading up to the tests as well as during the tests.  No recess, no music, art or P.E.,  lunch is trimmed down to ten minutes and there is no talking.  One syllable can instantly end lunch for the entire class (his parents weren't thrilled that more than once their son has come out of the lunch line with is food and the teacher told him to throw it all away and report back to class because someone wasn't silent.  And no, the school doesn't refund).  It wouldn't surprise me if we're about to see a rise in the number of school drop outs and kids being home schooled because of this.  When I was a kid, my sister and her friends used to spend their summer and christmas breaks talking about how they loved school and couldn't wait to go back.  I'm doubting any kids say that again.  "Yay, in just two more weeks we get to return to school where come standardized testing time we get to be treated like criminals in a lock down situation in a supermax prison, except that they get to eat their lunches each day and get that weird form of prisoner recess each day."
2013-03-30 02:13:07 AM
3 votes:

Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.


Part of the reason for low scores in Cali are the high numbers of English as a second language learners.

The reason our students perform for shiat despite high funding lies imbedded in American culture, not the teachers or their methods. Anti-intellectual sentiment is high and we place more emphasis on sports and entertainment than education or critical thinking. The result is a gaggle of lackluster students who just want to scrape by with the least amount of work. The kids that do well in school tend to come from homes that value education.
2013-03-30 02:12:59 AM
3 votes:

DrPainMD: Under funded? We spend more per pupil on schools than many other countries that do a better job.


How much of that actually goes to full time teaching positions with health benefits, 12 full paychecks per year, and a fully equipped modern office with plenty of risograph paper and ink for worksheet? Now how much of that money goes to worthless administrators and new athletic facilities?


Reducing things to statistics doesn't actually help you understand the world per se. You have to choose what statistics to use and why. You also have to be very careful about other people's choices, because it's very easy to twist numbers into technically correct lies.
2013-03-30 01:33:53 AM
3 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.


It's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.  Start punishing parents for failing children.  My children were ahead of the rest of their class when they first saw a teacher in pre-K.  They remained ahead of the other children throughout school.  I started teaching them colors and shapes and the alphabet as early as possible and they went in to the classroom way ahead.  There is only so much that a teacher can do to pull up a kid whose parents have dropped the ball.
2013-03-30 01:04:08 AM
3 votes:
45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.
2013-03-29 10:40:38 PM
3 votes:

naughtyrev: Principals, subby. Principals.


It seems the principals had no principles.
2013-03-30 09:28:16 AM
2 votes:
As an elementary teacher, let me just say how much I hate standardized testing.  Here in Indiana, the kids take Acuity three times a year.  The 4th and 5th grade take ELA/Math and/or Social Studies/Science.  So that's 9 tests right there.  Then they have 2 parts of the ISTEP.  Then my 3rd graders have IREAD.  I administer all the tests and I lost count of how many students just sat at their computers crying because of the damn pressure.  These are bright kids, too.  Our passing rate is 98%.  I'm just farking over it.  I would have left teaching years ago, but if you're in teaching for the right reasons, you know leaving the kids is a very difficult decision.  Love those crazy bastards.

When we saw that they were going to tie merit pay to scores, my first thought was, well, get ready for cheating.  I don't think all those people are necessarily bad, but tying pay to scores is ridiculous.  If you've worked or volunteered at a school, you know that each child has their own learning set.  There's too many variables for each child.  It's just a crazy notion.  Too much testing, not enough actual teaching.
2013-03-30 08:34:55 AM
2 votes:

LiberalEastCoastElitist: An awesome teacher isn't going to have much impact on little Tyrell, who came to class seeing his 5th grade reading level mom getting in a shoving match with her boyfriend and stayed up till 11:00pm watching crappy TV, then shows up to school with no homework and no breakfast (rinse and repeat daily).


True story: my wife's first job was in one of this shiattiest schools in one of the shiattiest county systems in the state, teaching 5th grade.  She had a kid who was obviously smart, but just seemed to not care a bit about his work, and was a terrible behavior problem in class.  They finally got ahold of his dad, to come in for a conference with my wife, the principal and a guidance counselor (after school hours, of course).  And dad comes in to the meeting wearing a teeshirt that says, "I don't even give a fark".  Parents, unfortunately, are 9 times out of 10 a much bigger reason a snowflake fails than the teacher is.
2013-03-30 08:33:42 AM
2 votes:
Public school in the US isn't much more than government subsidized daycare.  Students with the support of their parents are going to excel, and students without it are going to fail.  Give a crappy teacher a classroom full of honor students and that crappy teacher will appear successful.  Give a great teacher a classroom full of rejects and that teacher will appear unsuccessful.

Remove programs, increase class size, graduate kids that can't read - nobody cares.  Shut down schools for a day and angry parents come with pitchforks.  They don't care too much about what happens, but they sure need someone to take their kids off their hands.
2013-03-30 08:29:10 AM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.

It's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.  Start punishing parents for failing children.  My children were ahead of the rest of their class when they first saw a teacher in pre-K.  They remained ahead of the other children throughout school.  I started teaching them colors and shapes and the alphabet as early as possible and they went in to the classroom way ahead.  There is only so much that a teacher can do to pull up a kid whose parents have dropped the ball.


An awesome teacher isn't going to have much impact on little Tyrell, who came to class seeing his 5th grade reading level mom getting in a shoving match with her boyfriend and stayed up till 11:00pm watching crappy TV, then shows up to school with no homework and no breakfast (rinse and repeat daily).
2013-03-30 02:45:35 AM
2 votes:

ElizaDoolittle:  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...


As a CA teacher, I appreciate your defense of our profession. I'd like to point out, however, that I'm 10 years in, with multiple credentials as well as a graduate degree from a top 25 school (directly related to my work), and I only now make 68k a year.

CA is probably has the largest and dare I say wealthiest economy in the US and in much of the world. And yet, Kentucky (yes, the coal country state from Justified) pays their teachers way more, and funds their students way better. KY takes their students' education VERY seriously, and as a result these parents who are scraping and working hard to make ends meet will have some very well educated kids.

I was very surprised by this when I first visited the KY system. I'd expected run down schools with ratty chalkboards. nope... they are far and away superior to CA schools.

But as for TFA.... they have to be punished. when you don't punish the rule breakers, you are in fact rewarding them and punishing those who follow the rules.
2013-03-30 02:42:43 AM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: Might have had something to do with the bonuses that the teachers got paid as well.


To clarify this point, Superintendent Beverly Hall received bonuses based on student performance on the CRCT.  She received more than $200,000 in bonuses during three years of alleged cheating. For this, she is charged with Theft by Taking.  The teachers did not receive bonuses, although the school might have benefited from more funding based on higher test scores.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/beverly-hall-34-others-in di cted-in-atlanta-schools/nW7mX/
2013-03-30 02:33:28 AM
2 votes:

OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.


Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average.) The solution is not to pay teachers less, imo.  The solution is to tax the software engineers a few thousand more so the children of immigrants get to go to school on a full stomach and get taught by a good teacher.
2013-03-30 02:16:07 AM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.


Agreed.  If the parents don't take an interest in the childrens' education, their children won't bother to learn.  School is not daycare, people.

My dad taught high school English.  If I brought home a bad grade, he didn't blame the teachers, he whooped my butt, grounded me, and road my ass to make sure I studied.  I think he actually blamed himself more than anyone else for my bad grades (which were rare).

However, he would go to the school and deal with any issue that was their fault.  I remember three instances of this happening.  When I was in the first grade, I flunked art because "I refused to learn my colors".  He explained to them that I couldn't learn them because I was color blind.  Second instance was a teacher giving my sister a bad grade for a poem she wrote because "it was too good so obviously she didn't write it herself."  My dad was livid over that.  They changed the grade to A+ after he biatched at them.  Last instance, senior year in high school, I was given detention for speaking out in class and refused to do the time.  The teacher involved had made a political statement just before elections unrelated to the class (it was a music class).  My dad pointed out that the law requires the teacher to allow students an opportunity for rebuttal.  They had threatened to withhold my diploma over that.  I got my diploma.
2013-03-30 01:53:17 AM
2 votes:

derpy: Frederf: Forty-five years is a loooooooooooong sentence for a white-collar crime. Like, kill a man and be out in half of that long. I would have expected 10-15.

Yes, but they are teachers.  And this is Georgia.  It's like the crack/powdered coke thing.


Meanwhile, the average sentence for rape is under 15 years, and even murder can be as low as 25 in Georgia if you get paroled (though it's likely to be longer).  Excessive punishment is excessive.
2013-03-30 01:31:30 AM
2 votes:
45 years in prison but banksters go scott free?
2013-03-30 01:15:40 AM
2 votes:
fta Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators.

So their ability to provide for their families is tied to their students' test scores? GENIUS!
2013-03-30 01:01:46 AM
2 votes:

doglover: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


Might have had something to do with the bonuses that the teachers got paid as well.
2013-03-30 06:49:19 PM
1 votes:

gadian: I pity the poor shiat who gets the class of fark ups that year then.  Or the poor shiat who gets mostly great kids who have really no big percentage to improve.  Or the poor shiat that has the one loud, fark up kid that drags the rest of the class down and they can't get rid of or the poor shiat that....

Any of the poor shiats who would be subjected to such a method of pay.


That's what the test evangelists don't get, along with a great many other things, like tying shoes and not pissing on their hands.

Teaching is not like factory work, where the quality of the incoming raw material can be monitored, altered or rejected to get the best results in the finished product. Humans are infinitely variable, and teachers can't do a damn thing about that variability, so they do the best they can with the materials they get... which change every year.

Imagine if you made wooden sculptures. One shipment of wood has nice grain, is dry and has no knots or staples or nails... and the quality of what you could make from it would be near perfect. The next shipment is wet, has bug holes, knots, and staples by the pound. Yet you have to work with it anyway. Will the quality of your sculptures be the same?

One kid can screw the average for a class.  A class full of those "one kids" can screw up an entire school. What is a teacher supposed to do?
2013-03-30 03:51:42 PM
1 votes:

LiberalEastCoastElitist: liam76: mialynneb: When we saw that they were going to tie merit pay to scores, my first thought was, well, get ready for cheating. I don't think all those people are necessarily bad, but tying pay to scores is ridiculous. If you've worked or volunteered at a school, you know that each child has their own learning set. There's too many variables for each child.

True.  But you aren't (or shouldn't be) evaluating teachers on one child.

You should be evaluating them on class improvement and rating them against teachers with similar incoming scores.  You do that and you are going to isolate the effect of the teacher.

Should not incompetent teachers be fired? How did we come about with the cunning plan of whittling their paycheck down to gas station attendant equivalent in the hopes that they'll magically get better or go away?

Foreign medical school grads have to take a practical exam with simulated patients to get US licensure. Maybe we should randomly select classroom lessons performances, record them and have them graded by standardized education experts.


This has been tried and found to work really well. Not only does it help identify "bad" teachers it gives the teachers and administrators feedback that actually allows the teachers who want to improve to improve. Of course, it's expensive and requires a trained corps of educational experts so most districts just stick with multiple choice tests.
2013-03-30 01:57:50 PM
1 votes:

LesserEvil: People need to stop perpetuating the lie that schools are underfunded.


Thinking about Chicago here but when you see a school with it's library closed with no computer lab or air conditioning you think it must be underfunded. When you see a school with no nurse or psychiatrist and not enough special education teachers for the students you think it must be underfunded. When you see a school where the paint is peeling, the ceiling tiles are falling down and only half the kids in a room of 30 have textbooks you think it must be underfunded.

And you know what? It is underfunded! The school system might be getting stacks of cash but trust me, the schools themselves are underfunded.
2013-03-30 11:31:56 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.


BULLS HIT.

Atlanta schools fund at $13000+ per student, my local "white bread" school in the burbs' funds at $8000 per student.

Guess which school has a higher graduation rate? Which one has better test scores, even with the worst school system cheating?

People need to stop perpetuating the lie that schools are underfunded.

There are other problems going on here, mostly cultural. Unfortunately, people are afraid to confront these issues because "cultural" is often confused with "racial" (which is basically a racist mindset, as no race is magically required to follow a particular culture) - when in reality, these are two different things. Until we are willing to confront reality and deal with it, none of these problems will be solved.
2013-03-30 10:02:08 AM
1 votes:

CalvinMorallis: LiberalEastCoastElitist: An awesome teacher isn't going to have much impact on little Tyrell, who came to class seeing his 5th grade reading level mom getting in a shoving match with her boyfriend and stayed up till 11:00pm watching crappy TV, then shows up to school with no homework and no breakfast (rinse and repeat daily).

True story: my wife's first job was in one of this shiattiest schools in one of the shiattiest county systems in the state, teaching 5th grade.  She had a kid who was obviously smart, but just seemed to not care a bit about his work, and was a terrible behavior problem in class.  They finally got ahold of his dad, to come in for a conference with my wife, the principal and a guidance counselor (after school hours, of course).  And dad comes in to the meeting wearing a teeshirt that says, "I don't even give a fark".  Parents, unfortunately, are 9 times out of 10 a much bigger reason a snowflake fails than the teacher is.


And now for the flip side:  I live far enough away from Atlanta that my neighbors believe it's a distance based problem.  Meanwhile, I'm following one kid in and out of classes, in constant contact with sympathetic teachers, and battling the administration who cannot accept the rise of the gangs on campus.  And the gangs have made the drug culture more visible as well, but no, this can't be happening here, we're not Atlanta!  Said kid is failing, the teachers and I both know the kid is not ready for the next grade, but failure reflects poorly on the school, so it's going to take a battle royale to hold the kid back.

Another one of my kids has an IEP, but is pretty much mainstream.  Makes high C's and low B's when allowed to do all work on computer.  But there is a hand written test, REQUIRED by the state, that can be used to keep my kid from obtaining a friggin' diploma.  This stupid state cannot understand that some kids have mobility issues that impede the ability to manipulate pencils in a timed environment.  This kid is so discouraged, we are considered establishing residency in another state long enough for him to transfer and get out of high school.

The whole system is broken.
2013-03-30 09:12:14 AM
1 votes:

YixilTesiphon: Big school districts seem to always be corrupt disasters. We need to go to vouchers for every kid with a public option.


The problem with vouchers is we end up sanctioning religious schools that teach that Jesus rode dinosaurs, the Civil Rights Movement was a communist plot to undermine America, and gays are Evil Satanic Muslims.  If we try to tell them they can't teach that bullshiat in their schools, it creates a shiatstorm of saying its oppressing their religion.
2013-03-30 07:53:24 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


When Wall Street cheats and sinks the economy: 700 billion bailout

When PNC helps launder money for terrorists: meh, fine them a meaningless amount

When teachers cheat a little on stupid standardized tests so they can get paid a meaningful wage (folks, even with these "bonuses" teachers get paid crap): OMG Racketeering! 45 years in Jail!
2013-03-30 07:35:24 AM
1 votes:

Frederf: Forty-five years is a loooooooooooong sentence for a white-collar crime. Like, kill a man and be out in half of that long. I would have expected 10-15.


You forget the vein-popping hatred we hold for teachers in this country. Being a teacher is already a felony deserving 35 years. Cause they all make $250,000 a year, work maybe two months a year, and have sex with kids. In contrast to hardworking Real Murcians, who make $1.13 an hour scrubbing toilets and are happy to do it.
2013-03-30 07:20:18 AM
1 votes:

hasty ambush: Welcome to Atlanta, the Detroit of the South


It takes a moron to compare Atlanta to Detroit, good job.

When 90% of Atlanta is crumbling to the ground and in abject poverty as it's economic base disintegrates, then you can make that comparison.

My last visit to Atlanta didn't give me any Detroit-like vibes about the place. It's in much better shape than Detroit.
2013-03-30 04:17:47 AM
1 votes:
s22.postimg.org

A better name for it would be no politician left behind.
2013-03-30 04:12:16 AM
1 votes:

ElizaDoolittle: OgreMagi: ElizaDoolittle:


Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...

"I'm not outraged that they make that much.  I'm just sick of hearing them cry poverty.  And take into account my dad was a public school teacher, but that was before teacher salaries were decent."

I agree that $68k/yr is not poverty, but if you're paying off student loans and live in CA, it's very close.  Added to that, housing in CA is ridiculously expensive. The average teacher in CA is not living the good life.  Look, I am all in favor of getting rid of bad teachers.  Most good teachers, like your father, would agree with that. Pay promising young teachers more, so they might stay in the profession they wanted to be in.  It is a noble profession.


In the past, I always voted yes on the ballot initiatives that increased school funding, but every year we hear the same refrain, "if you want our schools to improve, we need more money."  Year after year we heard that.  And year after year California dropped further to the bottom despite those budget increases.  I'm sick of the demands and promises.  I'm all for rewarding success and if our schools where performing like the CTA promised,  I would support giving teachers even more money.  But our schools suck.  And their promises mean nothing to me.  It's now put up or shut up.

My dad quit teaching (early retirement) because he realized he was stuck between a system designed to do anything BUT teach, parents who considered him a glorified baby sitter, and students who were destined to be ditch diggers given how much they cared about their education.  He did find his teaching niche.  He joined a program to teach illiterate adults to read (primarily immigrants).  People who didn't have the opportunity to learn when they were young but hungered for the opportunity.  That program probably gave him the greatest satisfaction in his entire teaching career.

My dad recently died and we have yet to have his memorial.  I just realized that there is no better person to read a eulogy than one of his former adult students.  I'll have to contact my sisters to see if they can track one down on such short notice.
2013-03-30 03:58:50 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


This, that, these, and those. And also them.

"You don't get any more money unless your test scores come up!"
--But our test scores were already at 97%
"They have to be 110%!"
--But that's not possible
"Find a way or you don't get any money!"
--Uh, okay....

Of course, if the test scores don't improve, who gets the blame? The teachers, because they're clearly not doing their jobs. And then people wonder, Howcome we have such rotten teachers? It's because nobody with a teaspoon of brains wants to be put through this crap.
2013-03-30 03:30:50 AM
1 votes:
Probably caught when they filled the same wrong answer on a few hundred students sheets.

I have some ideas about what needs to change in education but the solutions aren't popular. Year round school or similar would prevent that regression, although it could be a parent's duty to prevent regression.

I'm getting a flashback right now. "Show your work" but the math is happening in my mind. Then I'd get punished for not doing my work. "If he doesn't study harder he'll fall behind" I was farking bored with addition and subtraction and repeating things over and over. Years of "behavior problems" and I get out of there early. Eventually I get a BS in Mechanical Engineering. Public schools have a one size fits all mentality and I didn't fit.

/Time to get drunk
2013-03-30 03:02:45 AM
1 votes:

ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K. (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average.) The solution is not to pay teachers less, imo. The solution is to tax the software engineers a few thousand more so the children of immigrants get to go to school on a full stomach and get taught by a good teacher.


I live in Southern California and work as a programmer, so this hits home.  I don't exactly make $400,000 per year, but your point still stands.

TurboTax said my effective federal tax rate this year was 19%.  I have no children/dependents, and have a well-above-average single-person income.  Why the hell is my tax rate so low?

I pay someone to clean my house.  I feel really bad about it, that somehow I'm akin to a slaveholder because I have someone do the dirty work of my house.  Why do I deserve the better life?
2013-03-30 02:46:02 AM
1 votes:

Silly Jesus: MurphyMurphy: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive ...

So which is it?

Unless obamadidcoke is one of the teachers or something, I'm gonna go with the newspaper articles and the official indictment and say that they got bonuses.


They did get bonuses and they also got to keep their jobs. If you are unfortunate enough to hear any of these "educators" do an interview on TV, you will be absolutely mortified by their speech. Kim Jung un has a better grasp of the English language.
2013-03-30 02:43:49 AM
1 votes:
Part of the problem with our schools is that they're so far backwards it's insane. We force kids to learn BS subjects at the elementary school level because the teachers are trying desperately to teach that state's standardized test without teaching JUST the test, and then after most of that BS is done, then the schools require, in some states, 2+ years of a foreign language or other related courses, long after the language patterns are mostly set and thee kid has no incentive to practice outside of class...

Where my nieces go to school, in Sweden, they started English in about the 2nd grade, then another language about 1-2 years after that, without teaching to some ridiculous test that wouldn't matter a hill of beans, and started throwing in stuff that forced the mind to think and adapt, like music, math and physics... All of my nieces can speak 3 (or 4 in 1 case) languages, and one of them is in the top 5% of all of Sweden when it comes to a math ability test that was given out to all high school aged kids...

But any time you take America's system, and throw in the idea of the higher performing schools get more money, and the lower performing school get squat, when it should be the other way around, and expect the Administration to start taking notice, when they can shovel that money their way...

Why do we pay our teachers $25-30k a year to start, yet require degrees that mean they're already in debt $150k+? And we wonder why no one wants to be a teacher anymore...
2013-03-30 02:30:50 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


it also helps when children don't see their entitlement receiving parents bring in mad cash slinging dope on the streets. kind of kills the inspiration to get good grades and make something of one's self. the stupidity of 'no child left behind' and blending your brightest, your run of the mill and your special needs students all together doesn't help a learning environment either. it's as if our government wants a large crop of children who will graduate well suited for menial labor and nothing more.
2013-03-30 02:25:47 AM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: No. English as a second language is a bullshiat excuse. My stepdaughter came to this country not speaking a word of English at the age of eight. Within three months she could communicate well in English. In six months she was fluent. The following school year she made the honor role.


Whoa there, tiger.
The younger the child, the more quickly and easily they are able to acquire fluency in a new language. This natural ability declines gradually with age and nosedives once kids hit puberty or so. Of course it's still possible to learn a language after that childhood adaptivity is lost, but it takes significantly more time and effort. Let's not measure and judge everyone by the yardstick of one bright eight-year-old.
2013-03-30 02:19:16 AM
1 votes:

Moonfisher: Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.

Part of the reason for low scores in Cali are the high numbers of English as a second language learners.

The reason our students perform for shiat despite high funding lies imbedded in American culture, not the teachers or their methods. Anti-intellectual sentiment is high and we place more emphasis on sports and entertainment than education or critical thinking. The result is a gaggle of lackluster students who just want to scrape by with the least amount of work. The kids that do well in school tend to come from homes that value education.


No.  English as a second language is a bullshiat excuse.  My stepdaughter came to this country not speaking a word of English at the age of eight.  Within three months she could communicate well in English.  In six months she was fluent.  The following school year she made the honor role.

However, I agree 100% that there is a culture that does not value education in this state.
2013-03-30 02:01:47 AM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.


Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.
2013-03-30 01:58:58 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.
2013-03-30 01:40:51 AM
1 votes:

cardex: Silly Jesus: Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.

It's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.  Start punishing parents for failing children.  My children were ahead of the rest of their class when they first saw a teacher in pre-K.  They remained ahead of the other children throughout school.  I started teaching them colors and shapes and the alphabet as early as possible and they went in to the classroom way ahead.  There is only so much that a teacher can do to pull up a kid whose parents have dropped the ball.

That sounds way too much like personal responsibility for it to have any place in modern America


You're right.  I don't know what I was thinking.
2013-03-30 01:32:41 AM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.


I pity the poor shiat who gets the class of fark ups that year then.  Or the poor shiat who gets mostly great kids who have really no big percentage to improve.  Or the poor shiat that has the one loud, fark up kid that drags the rest of the class down and they can't get rid of or the poor shiat that....

Any of the poor shiats who would be subjected to such a method of pay.
2013-03-30 01:27:03 AM
1 votes:
Forty-five years is a loooooooooooong sentence for a white-collar crime. Like, kill a man and be out in half of that long. I would have expected 10-15.
2013-03-30 01:22:28 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools. themselves.


"Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators. "

way to spin theft as a virtue.
2013-03-30 01:14:28 AM
1 votes:
Its a valuable lesson for students to learn. You gotta cheat to succeed. Just dont get caught.
2013-03-30 01:11:24 AM
1 votes:
This happened in Houston, too. The school superintendent Rod Paige was punished severely.

Kidding!

George W Bush made him US Secretary of Education.
2013-03-30 01:03:34 AM
1 votes:
Principals caught?
2013-03-30 01:02:46 AM
1 votes:
FALE!
 
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