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(WSBTV)   Thirty-five Atlanta Public Schools educators, including principals, superintendents and teachers, indicted on racketeering charges for changing answers on state exams of students in order to meet standards. They face 45 years in prison   (wsbtv.com) divider line 201
    More: Fail, Atlanta Public Schools, Atlanta, standards, racketeering charges, U.S. Department of Education, racketeering, assistant principal, superintendent  
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5891 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Mar 2013 at 1:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-30 01:35:17 AM  

Frederf: Forty-five years is a loooooooooooong sentence for a white-collar crime. Like, kill a man and be out in half of that long. I would have expected 10-15.


Yes, but they are teachers.  And this is Georgia.  It's like the crack/powdered coke thing.
 
2013-03-30 01:36:14 AM  
So much for the South rising again.
 
2013-03-30 01:40:19 AM  

Silly Jesus: Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.

It's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.  Start punishing parents for failing children.  My children were ahead of the rest of their class when they first saw a teacher in pre-K.  They remained ahead of the other children throughout school.  I started teaching them colors and shapes and the alphabet as early as possible and they went in to the classroom way ahead.  There is only so much that a teacher can do to pull up a kid whose parents have dropped the ball.


That sounds way too much like personal responsibility for it to have any place in modern America
 
2013-03-30 01:40:51 AM  

cardex: Silly Jesus: Nutsac_Jim: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive until I read this: "Investigators believe the test scores were tied to monetary bonuses for at least 35 former teachers and administrators". Makes more sense now. Bonuses should be given after the fact, as a surprise incentive for a job well done. Tests are way too easy to cheat on, and tying them to bonuses is asking for trouble.

I have always thought it should be merit pay based on the kids scores.  Not the raw score, but how well a teacher brings the kids up to higher level.  It should not be based on the class scores, or else teachers with the smart kids get the bonus.

base it on all your incoming kids, and how much better than average you bring the end of year scores.
End of year test can be given by the next years teacher.  They certainly will not want to see any shenanigans with falsly padding the score, because it would make it tougher for the next teacher the next year.

It's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.  Start punishing parents for failing children.  My children were ahead of the rest of their class when they first saw a teacher in pre-K.  They remained ahead of the other children throughout school.  I started teaching them colors and shapes and the alphabet as early as possible and they went in to the classroom way ahead.  There is only so much that a teacher can do to pull up a kid whose parents have dropped the ball.

That sounds way too much like personal responsibility for it to have any place in modern America


You're right.  I don't know what I was thinking.
 
2013-03-30 01:43:48 AM  
the nation needs to send more money to these schools
 
2013-03-30 01:43:48 AM  
Luckily they are always hiring.

i1323.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-30 01:53:17 AM  

derpy: Frederf: Forty-five years is a loooooooooooong sentence for a white-collar crime. Like, kill a man and be out in half of that long. I would have expected 10-15.

Yes, but they are teachers.  And this is Georgia.  It's like the crack/powdered coke thing.


Meanwhile, the average sentence for rape is under 15 years, and even murder can be as low as 25 in Georgia if you get paroled (though it's likely to be longer).  Excessive punishment is excessive.
 
2013-03-30 01:56:01 AM  

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.


Under funded? We spend more per pupil on schools than many other countries that do a better job. Our kids can barely beat Chad and Uganda on math tests, and it's not due to money.
 
2013-03-30 01:58:58 AM  

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.
 
2013-03-30 02:01:05 AM  

OgreMagi: Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.


We can't do that.  Nothing from other countries is better than what we have!  Because America!!!!11one!
 
2013-03-30 02:01:47 AM  

OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.


Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.
 
m00
2013-03-30 02:04:30 AM  

doglover: The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


Yeah, it's a highly paid profession there. Downside is they teach a bunch of hippie crap.
 
m00
2013-03-30 02:11:04 AM  
When I was living in Norway, I mentioned to one of my co-workers (typical Norwegian guy) that I was thinking of going to the Canary Islands for my 3 week vacation. He looked at me kind of disgustedly, and said "You know that's where poor people go."
 
2013-03-30 02:12:59 AM  

DrPainMD: Under funded? We spend more per pupil on schools than many other countries that do a better job.


How much of that actually goes to full time teaching positions with health benefits, 12 full paychecks per year, and a fully equipped modern office with plenty of risograph paper and ink for worksheet? Now how much of that money goes to worthless administrators and new athletic facilities?


Reducing things to statistics doesn't actually help you understand the world per se. You have to choose what statistics to use and why. You also have to be very careful about other people's choices, because it's very easy to twist numbers into technically correct lies.
 
2013-03-30 02:13:07 AM  

Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.


Part of the reason for low scores in Cali are the high numbers of English as a second language learners.

The reason our students perform for shiat despite high funding lies imbedded in American culture, not the teachers or their methods. Anti-intellectual sentiment is high and we place more emphasis on sports and entertainment than education or critical thinking. The result is a gaggle of lackluster students who just want to scrape by with the least amount of work. The kids that do well in school tend to come from homes that value education.
 
2013-03-30 02:16:07 AM  

Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.


Agreed.  If the parents don't take an interest in the childrens' education, their children won't bother to learn.  School is not daycare, people.

My dad taught high school English.  If I brought home a bad grade, he didn't blame the teachers, he whooped my butt, grounded me, and road my ass to make sure I studied.  I think he actually blamed himself more than anyone else for my bad grades (which were rare).

However, he would go to the school and deal with any issue that was their fault.  I remember three instances of this happening.  When I was in the first grade, I flunked art because "I refused to learn my colors".  He explained to them that I couldn't learn them because I was color blind.  Second instance was a teacher giving my sister a bad grade for a poem she wrote because "it was too good so obviously she didn't write it herself."  My dad was livid over that.  They changed the grade to A+ after he biatched at them.  Last instance, senior year in high school, I was given detention for speaking out in class and refused to do the time.  The teacher involved had made a political statement just before elections unrelated to the class (it was a music class).  My dad pointed out that the law requires the teacher to allow students an opportunity for rebuttal.  They had threatened to withhold my diploma over that.  I got my diploma.
 
2013-03-30 02:19:16 AM  

Moonfisher: Silly Jesus: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Step Five:  Hold parents accountable.

Part of the reason for low scores in Cali are the high numbers of English as a second language learners.

The reason our students perform for shiat despite high funding lies imbedded in American culture, not the teachers or their methods. Anti-intellectual sentiment is high and we place more emphasis on sports and entertainment than education or critical thinking. The result is a gaggle of lackluster students who just want to scrape by with the least amount of work. The kids that do well in school tend to come from homes that value education.


No.  English as a second language is a bullshiat excuse.  My stepdaughter came to this country not speaking a word of English at the age of eight.  Within three months she could communicate well in English.  In six months she was fluent.  The following school year she made the honor role.

However, I agree 100% that there is a culture that does not value education in this state.
 
2013-03-30 02:25:47 AM  

OgreMagi: No. English as a second language is a bullshiat excuse. My stepdaughter came to this country not speaking a word of English at the age of eight. Within three months she could communicate well in English. In six months she was fluent. The following school year she made the honor role.


Whoa there, tiger.
The younger the child, the more quickly and easily they are able to acquire fluency in a new language. This natural ability declines gradually with age and nosedives once kids hit puberty or so. Of course it's still possible to learn a language after that childhood adaptivity is lost, but it takes significantly more time and effort. Let's not measure and judge everyone by the yardstick of one bright eight-year-old.
 
2013-03-30 02:30:50 AM  

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


it also helps when children don't see their entitlement receiving parents bring in mad cash slinging dope on the streets. kind of kills the inspiration to get good grades and make something of one's self. the stupidity of 'no child left behind' and blending your brightest, your run of the mill and your special needs students all together doesn't help a learning environment either. it's as if our government wants a large crop of children who will graduate well suited for menial labor and nothing more.
 
2013-03-30 02:32:36 AM  
I miss how things were when I was in school.  We had standardized testing since like the first grade, but it was just two tests a year, both in the second semester, there was almost no prep work and we never knew the results of the test.  In the fifth grade my teacher had a fit over one of the questions because it covered hydraulics and he ranted about that question, pulled out the curriculum books off the shelf and passed them around and said "Look, there is nothing in the fifth grade curriculum concerning hydraulics..." and continued his rant.

The only standardized tests that mattered where in high school.  It was just a state issued test covering reading, writing and math.  You had to pass all three to graduate, but if you passed the one section and failed the other two, you only had to retake the parts you missed.  But even then there was almost no prep work for it.  The attitude was mostly "These are basic things you should already know."

The attitude right now that these tests are the most important thing in schools right now is really going to fark things up for everyone.  We already have this story of teachers who are facing a longer prison term than drug dealers, but that's not where it will end.  My friend's son told me how during testing period, the school goes into a kind of lock down mode a couple of weeks leading up to the tests as well as during the tests.  No recess, no music, art or P.E.,  lunch is trimmed down to ten minutes and there is no talking.  One syllable can instantly end lunch for the entire class (his parents weren't thrilled that more than once their son has come out of the lunch line with is food and the teacher told him to throw it all away and report back to class because someone wasn't silent.  And no, the school doesn't refund).  It wouldn't surprise me if we're about to see a rise in the number of school drop outs and kids being home schooled because of this.  When I was a kid, my sister and her friends used to spend their summer and christmas breaks talking about how they loved school and couldn't wait to go back.  I'm doubting any kids say that again.  "Yay, in just two more weeks we get to return to school where come standardized testing time we get to be treated like criminals in a lock down situation in a supermax prison, except that they get to eat their lunches each day and get that weird form of prisoner recess each day."
 
2013-03-30 02:33:28 AM  

OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.


Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average.) The solution is not to pay teachers less, imo.  The solution is to tax the software engineers a few thousand more so the children of immigrants get to go to school on a full stomach and get taught by a good teacher.
 
2013-03-30 02:35:19 AM  

Inchoate: OgreMagi: No. English as a second language is a bullshiat excuse. My stepdaughter came to this country not speaking a word of English at the age of eight. Within three months she could communicate well in English. In six months she was fluent. The following school year she made the honor role.

Whoa there, tiger.
The younger the child, the more quickly and easily they are able to acquire fluency in a new language. This natural ability declines gradually with age and nosedives once kids hit puberty or so. Of course it's still possible to learn a language after that childhood adaptivity is lost, but it takes significantly more time and effort. Let's not measure and judge everyone by the yardstick of one bright eight-year-old.


Yeah, as a language teacher you see this. A lot. I have guys who've spent a fortune in their 40's and they can barely order a beer or write a sentence. I have kids who actively fight me and the English learning process who can still have a conversation about their favorite celebrity all in English no problems by the end of the year.

It's all about brain juiciness or something like that. Once sodium channels are calcified the lithions percolate anti-clockwise and you don't learn good no more, or something.
 
2013-03-30 02:35:20 AM  
I know that we like to think of ourselves here as part of the scum of the Internet, but Fark very likely has a higher-than-average intelligence level among its visitors.  One of the Headline of the Week nominees this year made use of the pun on "heavy water" and referenced Robert Oppenheimer -- uneducated people don't know what heavy water is nor who Robert Oppenheimer is, yet we got the joke.

It was suggested earlier in the thread that America switch to the European-style system of filtering out which kids will succeed in school and separating accordingly.  This is a nice approach, but not perfect.  I agree that America needs more vocational schools, replacing some of the current college infrastructure.

However, the rigid system in Europe has downsides.  I was really bad in school, because I didn't care.  I hated homework that I just didn't do it if I could get away with it.  Despite having excellent test scores, I probably would have been kept at the lower levels in the European systems, even though I seem to have genius-level intelligence.  Instead of homework, I spent my time at home doing things like reverse engineering video games, eventually leading to my programming job.
 
2013-03-30 02:37:05 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: OgreMagi: doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."

Here in California, the average teacher's pay is approximately $10,000 more than the median household income.  Yet California rates near the bottom in school quality.  It's not just about pay.

Step One:  Lose the California Teacher's Association.
Step Two: Get rid of the administration bloat that sucks up too much of the school funds.
Step Three: Tell the Feds to fark off since we already have sufficient funds going to the schools (once we lose the excess administrators).
Step Four: Adopt teaching systems from other countries that have proven to work.

Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...


I'm not outraged that they make that much.  I'm just sick of hearing them cry poverty.  And take into account my dad was a public school teacher, but that was before teacher salaries were decent.
 
2013-03-30 02:42:43 AM  

Silly Jesus: Might have had something to do with the bonuses that the teachers got paid as well.


To clarify this point, Superintendent Beverly Hall received bonuses based on student performance on the CRCT.  She received more than $200,000 in bonuses during three years of alleged cheating. For this, she is charged with Theft by Taking.  The teachers did not receive bonuses, although the school might have benefited from more funding based on higher test scores.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/beverly-hall-34-others-in di cted-in-atlanta-schools/nW7mX/
 
2013-03-30 02:43:49 AM  
Part of the problem with our schools is that they're so far backwards it's insane. We force kids to learn BS subjects at the elementary school level because the teachers are trying desperately to teach that state's standardized test without teaching JUST the test, and then after most of that BS is done, then the schools require, in some states, 2+ years of a foreign language or other related courses, long after the language patterns are mostly set and thee kid has no incentive to practice outside of class...

Where my nieces go to school, in Sweden, they started English in about the 2nd grade, then another language about 1-2 years after that, without teaching to some ridiculous test that wouldn't matter a hill of beans, and started throwing in stuff that forced the mind to think and adapt, like music, math and physics... All of my nieces can speak 3 (or 4 in 1 case) languages, and one of them is in the top 5% of all of Sweden when it comes to a math ability test that was given out to all high school aged kids...

But any time you take America's system, and throw in the idea of the higher performing schools get more money, and the lower performing school get squat, when it should be the other way around, and expect the Administration to start taking notice, when they can shovel that money their way...

Why do we pay our teachers $25-30k a year to start, yet require degrees that mean they're already in debt $150k+? And we wonder why no one wants to be a teacher anymore...
 
2013-03-30 02:44:22 AM  
Allow me to correct myself, FTA:
For those who met Hall's mandates, however, rewards followed - public praise and financial bonuses alike.

Those bonuses are at the heart of the theft charges against Hall and others.

If a school met 70 percent of its annual targets, every employee received a bonus, as low as a few hundred dollars and as high as $1,000 or more.


MC Magic Cracker: Silly Jesus: Might have had something to do with the bonuses that the teachers got paid as well.

To clarify this point, Superintendent Beverly Hall received bonuses based on student performance on the CRCT.  She received more than $200,000 in bonuses during three years of alleged cheating. For this, she is charged with Theft by Taking.  The teachers did not receive bonuses, although the school might have benefited from more funding based on higher test scores.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/beverly-hall-34-others-in di cted-in-atlanta-schools/nW7mX/

 
2013-03-30 02:45:35 AM  

ElizaDoolittle:  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...


As a CA teacher, I appreciate your defense of our profession. I'd like to point out, however, that I'm 10 years in, with multiple credentials as well as a graduate degree from a top 25 school (directly related to my work), and I only now make 68k a year.

CA is probably has the largest and dare I say wealthiest economy in the US and in much of the world. And yet, Kentucky (yes, the coal country state from Justified) pays their teachers way more, and funds their students way better. KY takes their students' education VERY seriously, and as a result these parents who are scraping and working hard to make ends meet will have some very well educated kids.

I was very surprised by this when I first visited the KY system. I'd expected run down schools with ratty chalkboards. nope... they are far and away superior to CA schools.

But as for TFA.... they have to be punished. when you don't punish the rule breakers, you are in fact rewarding them and punishing those who follow the rules.
 
2013-03-30 02:46:02 AM  

Silly Jesus: MurphyMurphy: Peepeye: 45 years seemed excessive ...

So which is it?

Unless obamadidcoke is one of the teachers or something, I'm gonna go with the newspaper articles and the official indictment and say that they got bonuses.


They did get bonuses and they also got to keep their jobs. If you are unfortunate enough to hear any of these "educators" do an interview on TV, you will be absolutely mortified by their speech. Kim Jung un has a better grasp of the English language.
 
2013-03-30 02:47:03 AM  
OgreMagi:

Perhaps you're mad at the school system because you don't know how to spell "rode"  (as in rode my ass, not road my ass), or honor "roll, " not role.  Didn't you sever all relationships with the former step-daughter you're using as the paragon immigrant here?  If I'm wrong on the latter, apologies. I seem to recall a colorful divorce that you mentioned here.
 
2013-03-30 02:52:56 AM  

MC Magic Cracker: Silly Jesus: Might have had something to do with the bonuses that the teachers got paid as well.

To clarify this point, Superintendent Beverly Hall received bonuses based on student performance on the CRCT.  She received more than $200,000 in bonuses during three years of alleged cheating. For this, she is charged with Theft by Taking.  The teachers did not receive bonuses, although the school might have benefited from more funding based on higher test scores.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/beverly-hall-34-others-in di cted-in-atlanta-schools/nW7mX/


Ye gods. This is why you shouldn't have payment tied to standardized test performance.
 
2013-03-30 02:53:12 AM  
Yet the bankers are still not being prosecuted
 
2013-03-30 03:02:45 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K. (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average.) The solution is not to pay teachers less, imo. The solution is to tax the software engineers a few thousand more so the children of immigrants get to go to school on a full stomach and get taught by a good teacher.


I live in Southern California and work as a programmer, so this hits home.  I don't exactly make $400,000 per year, but your point still stands.

TurboTax said my effective federal tax rate this year was 19%.  I have no children/dependents, and have a well-above-average single-person income.  Why the hell is my tax rate so low?

I pay someone to clean my house.  I feel really bad about it, that somehow I'm akin to a slaveholder because I have someone do the dirty work of my house.  Why do I deserve the better life?
 
2013-03-30 03:03:51 AM  
We are looking at this the wrong way. All these black people in power in Atlanta see themselves as mafia-style gangsters, not "educators", cops, what-have-you. It's an attempt to be "The Sopranos", again. And if you look at the histroy of Atlanta cops, they are corrupt to the core, and racist as hell. Makes the white cops even worse,
 
2013-03-30 03:05:14 AM  

OgreMagi: ElizaDoolittle:



Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...


"I'm not outraged that they make that much.  I'm just sick of hearing them cry poverty.  And take into account my dad was a public school teacher, but that was before teacher salaries were decent."

I agree that $68k/yr is not poverty, but if you're paying off student loans and live in CA, it's very close.  Added to that, housing in CA is ridiculously expensive. The average teacher in CA is not living the good life.  Look, I am all in favor of getting rid of bad teachers.  Most good teachers, like your father, would agree with that. Pay promising young teachers more, so they might stay in the profession they wanted to be in.  It is a noble profession.
 
2013-03-30 03:15:09 AM  

Myria: ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K. (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average.) The solution is not to pay teachers less, imo. The solution is to tax the software engineers a few thousand more so the children of immigrants get to go to school on a full stomach and get taught by a good teacher.

I live in Southern California and work as a programmer, so this hits home.  I don't exactly make $400,000 per year, but your point still stands.

TurboTax said my effective federal tax rate this year was 19%.  I have no children/dependents, and have a well-above-average single-person income.  Why the hell is my tax rate so low?

I pay someone to clean my house.  I feel really bad about it, that somehow I'm akin to a slaveholder because I have someone do the dirty work of my house.  Why do I deserve the better life?


Sarcasm?  It read really well until you got into the slaveholder thing.
 
2013-03-30 03:29:58 AM  
this is bullcrap solely on the grounds that bankers fraud and steal and get to walk.
 
2013-03-30 03:30:50 AM  
Probably caught when they filled the same wrong answer on a few hundred students sheets.

I have some ideas about what needs to change in education but the solutions aren't popular. Year round school or similar would prevent that regression, although it could be a parent's duty to prevent regression.

I'm getting a flashback right now. "Show your work" but the math is happening in my mind. Then I'd get punished for not doing my work. "If he doesn't study harder he'll fall behind" I was farking bored with addition and subtraction and repeating things over and over. Years of "behavior problems" and I get out of there early. Eventually I get a BS in Mechanical Engineering. Public schools have a one size fits all mentality and I didn't fit.

/Time to get drunk
 
2013-03-30 03:42:48 AM  
If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
 
2013-03-30 03:58:50 AM  

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


This, that, these, and those. And also them.

"You don't get any more money unless your test scores come up!"
--But our test scores were already at 97%
"They have to be 110%!"
--But that's not possible
"Find a way or you don't get any money!"
--Uh, okay....

Of course, if the test scores don't improve, who gets the blame? The teachers, because they're clearly not doing their jobs. And then people wonder, Howcome we have such rotten teachers? It's because nobody with a teaspoon of brains wants to be put through this crap.
 
2013-03-30 04:00:15 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: OgreMagi:

Perhaps you're mad at the school system because you don't know how to spell "rode"  (as in rode my ass, not road my ass), or honor "roll, " not role.  Didn't you sever all relationships with the former step-daughter you're using as the paragon immigrant here?  If I'm wrong on the latter, apologies. I seem to recall a colorful divorce that you mentioned here.


Yes, I misspelled some things.  It's late and I'm tired.

My (former) stepdaughter was, in fact, very intelligent and a great student -- until her bipolar disorder kicked in.  Mental illness is a funny thing.  That doesn't change the fact that she did learn English rather quickly.
 
2013-03-30 04:08:44 AM  

doglover: Step One: Chronically underfund your educational system by making the budgets local. Thus, the poor areas get the worst budgets.

Step Two: Let morons who couldn't teach a foal to walk (most ungulates are walking mere minutes after birth, btw) decide how to measure scholastic success.

Step Three: Tie fedral aid not to need or number of students, but to success on these silly tests.

Step Four: Act shocked when people who actually care about kids resort to criminal enterprise to get enough money for their schools.


The best quote on the issue I've heard was from a teacher in Norway who, when asked why Norway's schools were so good compared to the US said "In Norway we pay our teachers like they were teachers."


1. The NEA has a 100 million dollar palace in DC. We spend more money per student in this country than many countries do with significantly worse results.
2. The aforementioned NEA would be responsible for this as well.
3. As stated, we already spend the most per student. Throwing more money at this isn't going to help.
4. Bwaahahahaha! Actually... care about the kids? That's why they do this? Really? Try again. They're protecting themselves and their meal ticket, that's it.
 
2013-03-30 04:12:16 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: OgreMagi: ElizaDoolittle:


Let me get this straight:  You're outraged that the average teacher's pay is $10K more than the median household income?  Why wouldn't it be?  It requires a college degree and usually post-degree work.  Why shouldn't it be $10K more than the median household income?  I'm willing to bet you, a resident of CA, couldn't put a roof over your head at that startlingly high $68k that teachers in CA make, on average.

The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth.  There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.  (The latter are the reason the teacher's salaries are above average ...

"I'm not outraged that they make that much.  I'm just sick of hearing them cry poverty.  And take into account my dad was a public school teacher, but that was before teacher salaries were decent."

I agree that $68k/yr is not poverty, but if you're paying off student loans and live in CA, it's very close.  Added to that, housing in CA is ridiculously expensive. The average teacher in CA is not living the good life.  Look, I am all in favor of getting rid of bad teachers.  Most good teachers, like your father, would agree with that. Pay promising young teachers more, so they might stay in the profession they wanted to be in.  It is a noble profession.


In the past, I always voted yes on the ballot initiatives that increased school funding, but every year we hear the same refrain, "if you want our schools to improve, we need more money."  Year after year we heard that.  And year after year California dropped further to the bottom despite those budget increases.  I'm sick of the demands and promises.  I'm all for rewarding success and if our schools where performing like the CTA promised,  I would support giving teachers even more money.  But our schools suck.  And their promises mean nothing to me.  It's now put up or shut up.

My dad quit teaching (early retirement) because he realized he was stuck between a system designed to do anything BUT teach, parents who considered him a glorified baby sitter, and students who were destined to be ditch diggers given how much they cared about their education.  He did find his teaching niche.  He joined a program to teach illiterate adults to read (primarily immigrants).  People who didn't have the opportunity to learn when they were young but hungered for the opportunity.  That program probably gave him the greatest satisfaction in his entire teaching career.

My dad recently died and we have yet to have his memorial.  I just realized that there is no better person to read a eulogy than one of his former adult students.  I'll have to contact my sisters to see if they can track one down on such short notice.
 
2013-03-30 04:17:47 AM  
s22.postimg.org

A better name for it would be no politician left behind.
 
2013-03-30 04:29:35 AM  
Wasn't Leo McGarry's sister Superindenant of the Atlanta Public School system?  I bet this shiat never would have happened under her reign.
 
2013-03-30 04:30:56 AM  

randomjsa: 1. The NEA has a 100 million dollar palace in DC. We spend more money per student in this country than many countries do with significantly worse results.
2. The aforementioned NEA would be responsible for this as well.
3. As stated, we already spend the most per student.


I love how you don't connect your disingenuous per capita statistic with the fact that teachers ain't seein' a penny fron the NEA's 100M palace.
 
2013-03-30 04:33:32 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.


Where the hell are you finding software engineers that make $400k+ in CA? Are these employers hiring?
 
2013-03-30 04:41:10 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.

Where the hell are you finding software engineers that make $400k+ in CA? Are these employers hiring?


I feel the same way when ya'll talk about teachers making more than 25k.
 
2013-03-30 04:41:39 AM  

OgreMagi: ElizaDoolittle:


We are on the same side.  Sorry for being biatchy tonight.  I get tired too.  I think we both want great teachers and don't begrudge the great ones being paid well.

I loved your story about your dad and yes, go find one of his adult students to give a eulogy if you possibly can.  You'll remember that always.

xoxo
 
2013-03-30 06:04:58 AM  

doglover: stiletto_the_wise: ElizaDoolittle: The problem in CA is the extremes of wealth. There are a lot of software engineers who have a median income of $400k+ and a lot of immigrants who clean their houses and pools and have a median income of about $20K.

Where the hell are you finding software engineers that make $400k+ in CA? Are these employers hiring?

I feel the same way when ya'll talk about teachers making more than 25k.


It's y'all, not ya'll.  No wonder they don't pay your sorry ass.  Seriously, thanks for the help on the computer stuff a few hours ago.  IIRC, and I'm sure I do not, aren't you teaching English as a second language in Japan?  TESL != teaching.  I wish it did.  I would take my certificate program and make $70k/yr.    Still like you, doglover.
 
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