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(Ottawa Citizen)   Meanwhile, in Canada... couple lose fourth child to the government for something dad did when he was 12. .. wait now... read the rest of it   (ottawacitizen.com) divider line 238
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34867 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Mar 2013 at 2:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-28 05:02:58 PM  

jvl: Car_Ramrod: Did... did you read the article? Do you disagree with the judge? Or are you just one of those blanket anti-authoritarians that love using the terms "citizen" and "precrime" like you're in an Orwell book? Dude did not deserve to keep his kid; he obviously can't take care of a child if he and his wife can't take care of themselves.

Let me put this in terms even a maroon could understand...

The right to have children and keep them is a Basic Human Right. It's even more fundamental than Free Speech. You do not fark with rights like these without one hell of a lot of reason to do so.

Something he did at 12 so we take away his children? Fark you. Doesn't take care of his pets so we take away his children? Fark you harder. He is a drunk? Don't make me fark you again!  Which part of "Basic Human Right" was not understood?  Now, if the Judge is basing his decisions on something not mentioned in the article like what happened with the first baby, then I'm okay with this.

But you do not execute a person for not taking care of his pets. You do not remove the right of Free Speech and Free Association for not taking care of pets. You do not remove the Right to Reproduce for not taking care of pets.

Rights. Sometimes the word Right is abused with all the "it's my Right to do xxx" which is heard over often in society. This is not one of those cases. This is one of the Fundamental Rights.


What about the right of the child to grow up in a clean, safe, heated home, where it doesn't reek of feces and dead animals?
 
2013-03-28 05:03:32 PM  

The One True TheDavid: The article does say "But his record shows otherwise, with him having been convicted of sexual assault, invitation to sexual touching, assault with a weapon, sexual interference and uttering threats." That he used a weapon might indicate that the victim wasn't already helpless before him, i.e. not a VERY young child or a cripple.


That's all I'm looking for, actual context. He may be a little serial rapist, but they don't really give you much to go on.
 
2013-03-28 05:04:11 PM  
Mikey1969: ....
Hell, for all we know, he played Dr with a buddy, was afraid of catching 'Gay' from it and told the other kid he'd kick his ass if he said anything. We don't know because they list a bunch of negative shiat and leave it to the readers to judge him. I don't know what his story is, but TFA is a straight up hit piece.

Good point, they should have some sort of authority that is privy to the details oversee their situation and make sure they are living in a manner that is not neglectful or abusive.

Don't you wonder why the first kid was taken away?  I'd bet you a cookie that it was because of abuse and neglect.
 
2013-03-28 05:04:49 PM  
Okay, usually, I think forced sterilization is a terrible thing, but damn, maybe this is a case where it would be the way to go.  Or if you don't like that, how about voluntary sterilization with an incentive.  Give the guy $2k and an ice bag to get those tubes tied.  Offer the lady $10k and a bingo ticket.
 
2013-03-28 05:05:11 PM  

Dead-Guy: Those offenses are describing a single scenario where a 12 year old asked (or directed), someone under 16 to touch him, and actually touched THEM in some way determined to be sexual. The sheer fact that this occurred, would land the "sexual assault" charge.
Then later it's possible he told the victim to not tell on them, in a threatening manner, apparently with some sort of weapon at hand.

I say "later" because the charge wasn't "sexual assault with a weapon", which under Canadian law means that it was a separate event somehow. For the record, it also wasn't "causing bodily harm" so I guess he didn't actually use the weapon in question, or it was a pretty lame weapon to begin with.


I realized after I posted that the guy could be First Nations.  It's also in Ontario, so let's just assume we're talking about the OPP.  That would explain just about everything.

So we've got a case of a dirty redskin playing doctor with someone loosely related to some OPP dickhead in 1996.  He's lucky he didn't get Milgarded... waaait a second.  This wouldn't be the same OPP that was stinging from Guy Paul Morin's DNA overturn just a few months previously, would it?

I'm not saying the guy's a model citizen, but to have all your education end when you're 12...  I barely knew how to wash my balls at that age.
 
2013-03-28 05:06:56 PM  
Mikey1969:

I'm not defending the guy, just trying to point out that the article sucks. There is a chance(as I mentioned in another post) that he just played doctor with a buddy, and then threatened him if he told anybody. Just going off the straight charges is never good, especially in this new era of registering everyone as a sex offender.

The guy was a raving psycho.  He butchered 400 chickens and screwed a beagle.  I hope they takie him back to Nevada where he's wanted for banging horses.
 
2013-03-28 05:07:35 PM  

sjmcc13: flyinglizard: vernonFL: the father drinks too much gin and the mother is addicted to bingo.
 
Are they from Newfoundland?

If they were, the father and mother would be brother and sister.

Newfoundlanders are not Hillbillies.


Rural New Brunswick has them beat.
 
2013-03-28 05:09:23 PM  

ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: But the part where the article said that the LAST THREE of the four children were taken away at the hospital means that the first one was not, right? And they lost that one after having some time to try out their parenting abilities.


Or they weren't on the radar yet. It could be that nobody knew he wasn't supposed to have kids, and realized it when the child was older, and started watching the couple closely after that.

ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: IDK how it works in Canada, but my mom's good friend was immediately given custody of her grandson after her daughter was thought to have shaken her oldest child, her ex-husband was immediately awarded custody of their second child because of what she did to their first child. If she had more children, TX would have taken them away immediately too, even though she didn't actually get charged with a crime (the physical damage was likely, but not conclusively, due to shaking, but it was enough that they couldn't take the risk with more children.)


Sorry, this pisses me off, too. We have due process for a reason. This is part of the reason that I'm terrified any time my 4 year old daughter gets injured. What if I'm "thought" to have done something?

/Yet I got stuck with emotionally and physically abusive adoptive parents for 8 years, and it took my statements to a Group Home house parent years later before the state acted to do anything. Apparently being locked in your room and made to piss in a coffee can is frowned on after the fact.
 
2013-03-28 05:09:38 PM  

Mikey1969: The point is that it has no details on what he did at 12, why he's charged with those particular crimes or anything, it just makes sure to point out over and over that he's a "bad guy", but we don't really know, do we? Irresponsible? Yep. Bad parent? Sounds like it, but they're making him sound like a 12 year old Ted Bundy.

For perspective on those crimes of his, keep in mind that in the US, if you tell people to move across the room in a standoff situation, it becomes kidnapping.

Hell, for all we know, he played Dr with a buddy, was afraid of catching 'Gay' from it and told the other kid he'd kick his ass if he said anything. We don't know because they list a bunch of negative shiat and leave it to the readers to judge him. I don't know what his story is, but TFA is a straight up hit piece.


So leave out what he did at 12. Maybe replace it (whatever 'it' is) with "got in trouble with the law" to still help explain why it's hard for him to get a job and he never got an education. And yeah, the piece is about the opposite of sympathetic. I still say it sounds like the judge did the right thing.

It's a sad state of affairs that he and his wife can't figure out how to live in better conditions. But until they do, those kids aren't in a safe environment with them. If there's family to put the kids with so they have a chance to visit the kids, that'd be great. But taking the kids is a better option than leaving them, as I see it.
I wish there was a different option but I don't know what it would be.
 
2013-03-28 05:10:27 PM  

sjmcc13: flyinglizard: vernonFL: the father drinks too much gin and the mother is addicted to bingo.
 
Are they from Newfoundland?

If they were, the father and mother would be brother and sister.

Newfoundlanders are not Hillbillies.


I'm a hillbilly. The vast majority of us don't have incest with our siblings or our children. And incest is more prevalent among non-hillbillies than you're aware of.

My mother's mother's family married cousins for at least 100 years, but that was in a small Mennonite community the Blue Ridge mountains in the 19th century when your mobility and therefore choices were limited. Eventually enough progress came to Page County that Grandma could send away to Iowa for fresh input.

Then my grandparents moved to Baltimore and that family still hasn't inbred. In fact my mother and her younger sister married men from different parts of the country; my aunt even picked a Lithuanian refugee. (That family had sided with the Germans, or at least against the Soviets, so when the Germans retreated they had to go with them.)

But anyway. Your anti-hillibilly slur is duly noted: please desist.
 
2013-03-28 05:12:00 PM  

IRQ12: Mikey1969: ....
Hell, for all we know, he played Dr with a buddy, was afraid of catching 'Gay' from it and told the other kid he'd kick his ass if he said anything. We don't know because they list a bunch of negative shiat and leave it to the readers to judge him. I don't know what his story is, but TFA is a straight up hit piece.

Good point, they should have some sort of authority that is privy to the details oversee their situation and make sure they are living in a manner that is not neglectful or abusive.

Don't you wonder why the first kid was taken away?  I'd bet you a cookie that it was because of abuse and neglect.


Could just be that someone somewhere didn't realize that he wasn't a "safe" parent for a few months/ years(However long it was), and THEN took the child away. Once again, this article drops the seed and then relies on you to decide. You could be 100% right also, I see no reason that you wouldn't be. Like I said, my main complaint is with how this is written.
 
2013-03-28 05:12:41 PM  
Sounds like two, completely broken people in dire need of excusing themselves from the planet.

He's a cretin.

She's an idiot who's devoted to a cretin.

Sense, this makes none.
 
2013-03-28 05:13:13 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mikey1969:

I'm not defending the guy, just trying to point out that the article sucks. There is a chance(as I mentioned in another post) that he just played doctor with a buddy, and then threatened him if he told anybody. Just going off the straight charges is never good, especially in this new era of registering everyone as a sex offender.

The guy was a raving psycho.  He butchered 400 chickens and screwed a beagle.  I hope they takie him back to Nevada where he's wanted for banging horses.


Hey, Beagles are 100% consenting...
 
2013-03-28 05:14:10 PM  
I bet his sex crimes as a teen had something to do with gerbils.
 
2013-03-28 05:14:51 PM  
jvl:

The right to have children and keep them is a Basic Human Right. It's even more fundamental than Free Speech. You do not fark with rights like these without one hell of a lot of reason to do so.

6/10 because you've GOT to be kidding.

I say reproduction and child-rearing should be regarded as separate things and both should be strictly licensed and overseen. At least we ought to be able to have people like this sterilized.
 
2013-03-28 05:15:17 PM  

jvl: Lionel Mandrake: jvl: Lionel Mandrake: Sounds like he lost the kids for what he's been doing, beginning at age 12.

The Judge said so. Judge is God; he decides what is right and proper. Judge gives your children away for permanent adoption for your precrimes. You will obey citizen. The Judge knows best, right?

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but you failed miserably.

If only there were some kind of reference, a link if you will, in my comment to a case where Canadian Judges routinely took children away to make sure they had better lives.


I missed the part where the kid was taken away years ago to a residential school because his parents were deemed to be unfit do to their ancestry.

Guess what?  Innocent people have been locked up for murder before!  Should we let out all the people accused of murder because some dickhead judge and/or lawyer and/or jury f*cked up in the past?

Do you see now how your point was stupid and irrelevant?
 
2013-03-28 05:16:06 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: So leave out what he did at 12. Maybe replace it (whatever 'it' is) with "got in trouble with the law" to still help explain why it's hard for him to get a job and he never got an education. And yeah, the piece is about the opposite of sympathetic. I still say it sounds like the judge did the right thing.

It's a sad state of affairs that he and his wife can't figure out how to live in better conditions. But until they do, those kids aren't in a safe environment with them. If there's family to put the kids with so they have a chance to visit the kids, that'd be great. But taking the kids is a better option than leaving them, as I see it.
I wish there was a different option but I don't know what it would be.


I think the fact that he coulldn't attend school starting at Grade 9 may have really farked up his ability to function socially(Which would include parenting children). You do a lot of growing psychologically and emotionally during those 4 years of high school. I think this would also be a situation for some kind of assistance, I don't know, the 'learn how to be a functional member of society' version of rehab or something?
 
2013-03-28 05:21:34 PM  

Mikey1969: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: But the part where the article said that the LAST THREE of the four children were taken away at the hospital means that the first one was not, right? And they lost that one after having some time to try out their parenting abilities.

Or they weren't on the radar yet. It could be that nobody knew he wasn't supposed to have kids, and realized it when the child was older, and started watching the couple closely after that.

ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: IDK how it works in Canada, but my mom's good friend was immediately given custody of her grandson after her daughter was thought to have shaken her oldest child, her ex-husband was immediately awarded custody of their second child because of what she did to their first child. If she had more children, TX would have taken them away immediately too, even though she didn't actually get charged with a crime (the physical damage was likely, but not conclusively, due to shaking, but it was enough that they couldn't take the risk with more children.)

Sorry, this pisses me off, too. We have due process for a reason. This is part of the reason that I'm terrified any time my 4 year old daughter gets injured. What if I'm "thought" to have done something?

/Yet I got stuck with emotionally and physically abusive adoptive parents for 8 years, and it took my statements to a Group Home house parent years later before the state acted to do anything. Apparently being locked in your room and made to piss in a coffee can is frowned on after the fact.


I'm not saying its good or right, but when your mother, who hates your husband, takes his side when he divorces you while you're pregnant with another child after an incident with your older child that seems an awful lot like shaken baby? And your mother supports him in his bid to get full custody of that unborn child during the divorce and it works? With the state of our country's family court system and the way they treat fathers? I think its probably much, much different than your daughter having a slip and fall.

Hell, my brother was in urgent care for broken bones and stitches at least twice a year from the time he was 2 until he was 16. He broke all of his fingers at least once during that 14 year time period. He broke limbs, got very strange injuries that defy explanation, but no one ever investigated our family. He was diagnosed and treated as a super clumsy kid. He's also exceptionally athletic, so go figure how he can be highly coordinated AND clumsy at the same time...
 
2013-03-28 05:24:03 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: The judge noted they had not yet sought help for some of their own admitted problems, namely that the father drinks too much gin and the mother is addicted to bingo.


This judge must live in a veal box. That's Canada in a nutshell.
 
2013-03-28 05:24:26 PM  
12?

www.reelingreviews.com

"You don't know Newfoundlanders."
 
2013-03-28 05:27:13 PM  
Mikey1969:

I think the fact that he coulldn't attend school starting at Grade 9 may have really farked up his ability to function socially(Which would include parenting children). You do a lot of growing psychologically and emotionally during those 4 years of high school.

I dropped out of school in 8th grade. I didn't want kids even then and never had any before getting sterilized at age 43, which was probably a good thing. But lack of high school education by itself should not disqualify people from becoming parents.

The part about the dead dog in a squalid house should though.

 
2013-03-28 05:28:22 PM  
When is this gonna happen to the Duggars?
 
2013-03-28 05:29:15 PM  

ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: I'm not saying its good or right, but when your mother, who hates your husband, takes his side when he divorces you while you're pregnant with another child after an incident with your older child that seems an awful lot like shaken baby? And your mother supports him in his bid to get full custody of that unborn child during the divorce and it works? With the state of our country's family court system and the way they treat fathers? I think its probably much, much different than your daughter having a slip and fall.


Not saying it was wrong, just the "suspected" thing with no actual due process makes me shudder. Shaken babies are no joke, I just see a lot of potential for over-reacting overall in this. Not necessarily in your situation, it's just in general how badly this could possibly go.
 
2013-03-28 05:31:44 PM  

Mikey1969: I think the fact that he coulldn't attend school starting at Grade 9 may have really farked up his ability to function socially(Which would include parenting children). You do a lot of growing psychologically and emotionally during those 4 years of high school. I think this would also be a situation for some kind of assistance, I don't know, the 'learn how to be a functional member of society' version of rehab or something?


If that's something that can be taught later in life, do it. I think it would be great. In the meantime, he needs to not be responsible for another living critter.

I'm not saying the kids ought to be removed to punish the two of them (for being losers, I guess?). I just think leaving the kids would be bad enough for them that it's the better thing to do. And if there's a way to teach these folks how to live better, then that's the RIGHT thing to do.
 
2013-03-28 05:40:07 PM  

SlothB77: i don't know about the pedophilia considering he was just a child himself when he allegedly committed them, but

They once lived in a tent at a trailer park.
A child-protection agent reported in 2011 that the state of their home was "deplorable, smelling of urine, feces and other unknown smells and extreme filth."

There was no heat at the home, either.
They've had other problems at home too, with authorities in 2010 seizing around 30 animals from their house. They removed gerbils, mice, rats, snakes, dogs (including one that was in such bad health it had to be put down) and cats.
Some of the animals found in the house had been dead for a while.

isn't an environment to raise kids in.


Yeah, this.  I've got my doubts that a juvenile offense, of any kind, should basically make somebody lifetime-ineligible to have kids.

However, there seems to be a mountain of evidence that there was plenty of other reasons they were unfit parents, and were providing an unfit environment.
 
2013-03-28 05:41:42 PM  

The One True TheDavid: I dropped out of school in 8th grade. I didn't want kids even then and never had any before getting sterilized at age 43, which was probably a good thing. But lack of high school education by itself should not disqualify people from becoming parents.


What I'm saying is that he missed out on a HUGE part of maturing as a child/teenager. Some don't need that socialization, some do. I can see it doing more harm than good...

NOT saying that high school education should be a criteria for parenthood, sorry if there was confusion there.
 
2013-03-28 05:41:58 PM  
Without further information on what he did when he was 12, this has got to be one of the most f**ked up situations ever. This seems to be sexual offender laws completely out of control and insane.

A pre-teen will experiment sexually. That's a fact. Especially, boys.

But his record shows otherwise, with him having been convicted of sexual assault, invitation to sexual touching, assault with a weapon, sexual interference and uttering threats.

Knowing the American Judicial System, the 'weapon' could have been a Nerf gun. (Yes. I know the case involves the Canadian Judicial System.) Kids are always threatening each other. Kids used to pelt each other with rocks, sticks and nearly anything else they could lay their hands on. A favorite was a hardened clump of dirt. When I was in school, nearly every boy carried a pocket knife. All of the adults knew it -- and had their own.

After that incident, from what I can tell, the legal system pretty well f**ked him up thoroughly. He was isolated and ostracized. Any shrink will tell you what happens to a person, especially a kid, when they are treated like that. The chances are very high that, actually, he's not a real sex offender. He was just a horny, curious kid. However, their legal system has been working for decades to turn him into a psychopath -- which they can then blame on his previous history, the majority of which they caused, and toss him in jail for life.

Everything that I read that they consider bad can have come from the way he's been treated for most of his life. I've known many a 'bad' kid turn their lives around after school, especially once they got married and had kids. Suddenly, they're average citizens. They're keeping jobs, knocked off the dope, stopped the partying and decided that living like a pig was no longer fun.

Ostracize them, like they've done to this guy, and you're begging for a career criminal.

They're punishing his wife also. I don't recall anything being brought up about her record. However, treating him like krap will affect her also. So, they're punishing her, a potential innocent party, for something he might do.

BTW. Non-sex offenders have lived in much worse conditions with more than one kid and no one gives a shiat. We've got homeless families on the street whose kids main meals come from the free lunch program at a school. And we have city leaders who decide to stop charities from providing them with easily accessed meals because 'it encourages them to hang around the neighborhood and businesses complain'.

If he has not offended since he was 12, especially after having to live basically like Lepers used to be treated, and blacks during the time of legal discrimination and segregation, then I figure he aint gonna.

He has attitude concerning psychological tests? I'm not surprised.

Sex seems to be the only 'crime' we hold against kids from the time they're able to become aroused until they die of old age. Even murder is not held so strictly against them. Actually, with any other crime, their juvenile records are sealed, meaning only law enforcement can access them.
Not everyone in any city they choose to live in -- which is what is happening to this guy.

I don't know his crime but I can tell you that 75% of what folks used to consider sexual experimentation among kids and nothing to get fanatical about, is NOW criminal. Under today's laws, 90% of my graduating high school class would be considered sex offenders.

That might come as a shock to those who are now lawyers, politicians, businessmen and women, parents, grandparents, physicians and scientists. Even those who are the basic hard working stiffs that provide most of the labor in the nation. Some are in law enforcement also.

At least 60% of you FARKers, as kids, due to your exploratory actions as pre-teens or even teens, can be considered sex offenders also. Got kids? A high percentage of them could fit the bill too. Kids will often learn about sex via same sex comparison. It's not homosexuality. It's not 'dirty'. However, today it's a CRIME!

Geez! I thought only the Americans were fanatically insane concerning sex and the legal system. I see now that Canada is just as bad, if not worse.
 
2013-03-28 05:44:30 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: If that's something that can be taught later in life, do it. I think it would be great. In the meantime, he needs to not be responsible for another living critter.


From what I've seen people who behave like this never learn,not even when they are court ordered to take parenting classes and have psych evaluations. The woman in the couple I mentioned has told me before that she only feels like an adult when she has kids or is pregnant. That biatch is 33 years old. She should be able to feel like an adult all the time without neglecting or abusing kids but I guess not.
 
2013-03-28 05:48:06 PM  

Mikey1969: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: I'm not saying its good or right, but when your mother, who hates your husband, takes his side when he divorces you while you're pregnant with another child after an incident with your older child that seems an awful lot like shaken baby? And your mother supports him in his bid to get full custody of that unborn child during the divorce and it works? With the state of our country's family court system and the way they treat fathers? I think its probably much, much different than your daughter having a slip and fall.

Not saying it was wrong, just the "suspected" thing with no actual due process makes me shudder. Shaken babies are no joke, I just see a lot of potential for over-reacting overall in this. Not necessarily in your situation, it's just in general how badly this could possibly go.


Agreed. I would be more uppity and angry about this if it was a father who was denied his rights because of suspicions. Fathers have had a helluva time being treated fairly.

Even in this article, I doubt that the mother is not permitted the option to raise the children without this super star. My cousin was engaged to the mother of his children and they were living together. They had a daughter and another on the way. When she delivered second daughter, she and the newborn baby tested positive for illicit drugs. Custody of the child was not given to my cousin, because he was not intending to leave their shared home with his two children. His mother took custody and my cousin didn't get custody back again for 3 years. But, the key is, he got custody back when he left his fiancée, since she hid the drug habit and then suggested that the child might not be his afterall...
 
2013-03-28 05:50:51 PM  
What's a Canada?
 
2013-03-28 05:55:57 PM  
Rik01: ....
Everything that I read that they consider bad can have come from the way he's been treated for most of his life. I've known many a 'bad' kid turn their lives around after school, especially once they got married and had kids. Suddenly, they're average citizens. They're keeping jobs, knocked off the dope, stopped the partying and decided that living like a pig was no longer fun.
.

And something in this article indicates that these people are "average citizens" who have/are "keeping jobs, knocked off the dope, stopped the partying and decided that living like a pig was no longer fun "?

Again:  I'll bet the farm that kid #1 was taken from the home because of abuse/neglect/sanitary conditions and the criminal history was only then brought to the attention of the courts as a part of usual checks and whatnot.  I  highly doubt they showed up one day to take the kid because of something he did when he was 12.
 
2013-03-28 06:11:40 PM  

jvl: Car_Ramrod: Did... did you read the article? Do you disagree with the judge? Or are you just one of those blanket anti-authoritarians that love using the terms "citizen" and "precrime" like you're in an Orwell book? Dude did not deserve to keep his kid; he obviously can't take care of a child if he and his wife can't take care of themselves.

Let me put this in terms even a maroon could understand...

The right to have children and keep them is a Basic Human Right. It's even more fundamental than Free Speech. You do not fark with rights like these without one hell of a lot of reason to do so.

Something he did at 12 so we take away his children? Fark you. Doesn't take care of his pets so we take away his children? Fark you harder. He is a drunk? Don't make me fark you again!  Which part of "Basic Human Right" was not understood?  Now, if the Judge is basing his decisions on something not mentioned in the article like what happened with the first baby, then I'm okay with this.

But you do not execute a person for not taking care of his pets. You do not remove the right of Free Speech and Free Association for not taking care of pets. You do not remove the Right to Reproduce for not taking care of pets.

Rights. Sometimes the word Right is abused with all the "it's my Right to do xxx" which is heard over often in society. This is not one of those cases. This is one of the Fundamental Rights.


Yes, but when somebody is not taking care of this kids, as this guy and his wife couldn't possibly have been doing, somebody has to step in to protect them.  You do not have a fundamental right to abuse a child, period.
 
2013-03-28 06:11:55 PM  
trust me when I say this, Canada's child services ministry is a sewer filled withthe types of social workers who SHOULD NOT be in a position to judge who are fit parents and who are not. The govnmt needs to stay the fark out of our lives and homes.
 
2013-03-28 06:13:22 PM  

Mikey1969: The My Little Pony Killer: "You'd think they'd want me interacting with other human beings, learning how to act properly and respect people."

This is not something you want to admit while trying to paint yourself as a victim to the media.

What? The fact that at a very important time in your life, both socially and developmentally, the State put you in the school version of solitary confinement? I don't know what he did with who, because the story actually sucks, but this is a truly bullshiat move, and yes, it makes him the victim in that part of it.


No, the fact that he understands the problem lies with him, but thinks that the onus is on others to help him through it. He knows he needs to learn how to act properly and respect other people. Is there anything listed in TFA that would lead you to believe that he is actually taking steps towards this on his own? Because it sounds to me like he just plain gave up.
 
2013-03-28 06:17:21 PM  

Mikey1969: The One True TheDavid:

I dropped out of school in 8th grade. I didn't want kids even then and never had any before getting sterilized at age 43, which was probably a good thing. But lack of high school education by itself should not disqualify people from becoming parents.

What I'm saying is that he missed out on a HUGE part of maturing as a child/teenager. Some don't need that socialization, some do. I can see it doing more harm than good...

NOT saying that high school education should be a criteria for parenthood, sorry if there was confusion there.


No confusion & no offense, I just wanted to play devil's advocate. And you might be wrong that missing out on the socialization one gets high school is a bad thing; I certainly know a few people who suffered from the other kids all through high school. Learning that being different in any way gets you harassed, bullied or beaten up sucks.
 
jvl
2013-03-28 06:17:24 PM  

jgilb: Maybe you should allow him to babysit your children to prove he is capable of exercising his "Basic Human Rights".


It is my right to choose babysitters as I see fit. It is his right to reproduce. These are unrelated facts.

The One True TheDavid: I say reproduction and child-rearing should be regarded as separate things and both should be strictly licensed and overseen. At least we ought to be able to have people like this sterilized.


I think morons should be sterilized. Despite my prolific proclamations to implement this policy, it is not so. You think stuff should be overseen, yet that too is not so.

On a related note, reproduction combined with child-rearing are, together, a human right.

Car_Ramrod: What about the right of the child to grow up in a clean, safe, heated home, where it doesn't reek of feces and dead animals?


Objection your honor, facts not in evidence. Counsel for the Prosecution Ramrod has not established that the slack-jawed parent in question would treat a child that way, and precrime is not yet a recognized legal condition.

Yes, of course Child Protective Services, or whatever it is called in Canadian, should be on the alert. But guilt of a crime does not precede a crime.
 
2013-03-28 06:18:47 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Mikey1969: The My Little Pony Killer: "You'd think they'd want me interacting with other human beings, learning how to act properly and respect people."

This is not something you want to admit while trying to paint yourself as a victim to the media.

What? The fact that at a very important time in your life, both socially and developmentally, the State put you in the school version of solitary confinement? I don't know what he did with who, because the story actually sucks, but this is a truly bullshiat move, and yes, it makes him the victim in that part of it.

No, the fact that he understands the problem lies with him, but thinks that the onus is on others to help him through it. He knows he needs to learn how to act properly and respect other people. Is there anything listed in TFA that would lead you to believe that he is actually taking steps towards this on his own? Because it sounds to me like he just plain gave up.


Honestly, he sounds like my alcoholic father. People should have known he had issues, so they shouldn't have stressed him out.

It was everyone else's fault that he was a drunk, because he was a fragile little flower with no self control and a genuine addiction, but everyone else drove him to drink. It also happens with mental illness too. "I have X disorder, why can't everyone just be more patient and tolerant of me as I emote non-stop and disrupt everyone's life while refusing treatment!"
 
2013-03-28 06:19:15 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Sounds like he lost the kids for what he's been doing, beginning at age 12.


This
 
2013-03-28 06:22:01 PM  
While his 'rights' being violated bother me; ultimately, I'm going to have to side with the baby having the right to grow up in a safe environment.
 
2013-03-28 06:22:02 PM  

jvl: The One True TheDavid: I say reproduction and child-rearing should be regarded as separate things and both should be strictly licensed and overseen. At least we ought to be able to have people like this sterilized.

I think morons should be sterilized.


Who determines who is a "moron?"

Judges?
 
2013-03-28 06:22:57 PM  

outtatowner: function SOswitchMenu() {var el = document.getElementById('bodyDiv');if ( el.style.display != "none" ) { el.style.display = 'none';}else { el.style.display = '';}var el2 = document.getElementById('h2');if ( el2.className == "calHeader goog-zippy-expanded normalText" ) { el2.className = "calHeader goog-zippy-collapsed normalText";return;}if ( el2.className == "calHeader goog-zippy-collapsed normalText" ) { el2.className = "calHeader goog-zippy-expanded normalText";return;}}function SOframeReload() {var f = document.getElementById('soFrame');f.src = f.src;}Satanic_Hamster:You'd think he would have noticed a pattern after the 2nd or 3rd kid.

"it's the oddest thing; I have a kid and the government takes it away immediately.  What are the odds of it happening a fourth time?"


Bah, you missed the part where mother is addicted to bingo. He's just trying to help her fill a row an collect the prize.


You got yourself a virus there ottatowner. Might want to install and run Malware Bytes.
 
2013-03-28 06:25:57 PM  

rkiller1: TFA: They've had other problems at home too, with authorities in 2010 seizing around 30 animals from their house. They removed gerbils, mice, rats, snakes, dogs (including one that was in such bad health it had to be put down) and cats.
[cdn.dashburst.com image 365x277]


I read that the dog had bad breath, and I was thinking that dog had to have been melting the cage doors so they had to put him down.
 
jvl
2013-03-28 06:26:56 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: jvl: The One True TheDavid: I say reproduction and child-rearing should be regarded as separate things and both should be strictly licensed and overseen. At least we ought to be able to have people like this sterilized.

I think morons should be sterilized.

Who determines who is a "moron?"

Judges?


I decide. I am the law. Also, those who I a delegate my power to, occasionally for a small fee.
 
2013-03-28 06:27:33 PM  
Regardless of how they got that way, some people really are too damaged to be even half-decent parents. I'm inclined to believe that his "sex crime" at age 12 wasn't as bad as people seem to think, but the bit about the squalid house with the dead dog, the part about him drinking and taking his anger out on his wife, and her repeated choice to stay with him and get pregnant by him, would incline me to believe that they shouldn't be trusted with kids even if I knew nothing of his life before age 18.
 
2013-03-28 06:35:37 PM  
jvl:

On a related note, reproduction combined with child-rearing are, together, a human right.

I very strongly disagree. To employ this phrase without sarcasm or facetiousness for once, won't somebody think of the children? Don't you agree that a kid has a right not to be reared by a drunk father with anger problems and an imbecilic mother in a house with dead dogs?
 
2013-03-28 06:38:53 PM  

ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: Mikey1969: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: I'm not saying its good or right, but when your mother, who hates your husband, takes his side when he divorces you while you're pregnant with another child after an incident with your older child that seems an awful lot like shaken baby? And your mother supports him in his bid to get full custody of that unborn child during the divorce and it works? With the state of our country's family court system and the way they treat fathers? I think its probably much, much different than your daughter having a slip and fall.

Not saying it was wrong, just the "suspected" thing with no actual due process makes me shudder. Shaken babies are no joke, I just see a lot of potential for over-reacting overall in this. Not necessarily in your situation, it's just in general how badly this could possibly go.

Agreed. I would be more uppity and angry about this if it was a father who was denied his rights because of suspicions. Fathers have had a helluva time being treated fairly.

Even in this article, I doubt that the mother is not permitted the option to raise the children without this super star. My cousin was engaged to the mother of his children and they were living together. They had a daughter and another on the way. When she delivered second daughter, she and the newborn baby tested positive for illicit drugs. Custody of the child was not given to my cousin, because he was not intending to leave their shared home with his two children. His mother took custody and my cousin didn't get custody back again for 3 years. But, the key is, he got custody back when he left his fiancée, since she hid the drug habit and then suggested that the child might not be his afterall...


It does seem that the 'father hate' is (very) slowly swinging over in a more father-friendly direction, but it could take forever... They just passed a law in UT(Apparently only state where this was legal) that made it illegal for a mother to fraudulently represent the status of a child to the father. Women would claim the baby had been miscarried or stillborn, then come to Utah and have the baby and raise it, screwing the father out of any rights he would have had, as he thought the child was dead. This was legal to do until this legislative session. With more fathers taking an active interest in their children, and women showing that they aren't all angels, maybe it will end up more fair before I grow old...
 
2013-03-28 06:45:09 PM  

D135: foxyshadis: In typical tabloid fashion, the most outrageous part of the situation is presented first, then followed up by the "oh, yeah, now it all makes sense" bits...

...which then leads into the whole "should some people be chemically castrated?" portion of the article


That was my thought, too. If they're just going to keep taking his kids away why let him have any more? But then I realized it's possible he could someday straighten his shiat out and it wouldn't be fair to impose such a permanent solution.
 
2013-03-28 06:47:48 PM  

jvl: Lionel Mandrake: jvl: The One True TheDavid: I say reproduction and child-rearing should be regarded as separate things and both should be strictly licensed and overseen. At least we ought to be able to have people like this sterilized.

I think morons should be sterilized.

Who determines who is a "moron?"

Judges?

I decide. I am the law. Also, those who I a delegate my power to, occasionally for a small fee.


I accept your apology
 
jvl
2013-03-28 06:59:46 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Don't you agree that a kid has a right not to be reared by a drunk father with anger problems and an imbecilic mother in a house with dead dogs?


First, there is a presumption that would happen without proof.

Second, since we are talking about basic human rights, I strongly disagree that the consequences of parental neglect should precede the neglect.

Third, to the best of my knowledge drunk fathers with anger issues do not routinely have their children removed from them unless they actually commit an abuse or permit dead dogs in the house.

You might wish for a different system. (Insert "you know who else" joke here). It is a dangerous and slippery slope to decide who is and is not fit for parenting absent actual wrongdoing.
 
2013-03-28 07:05:29 PM  

Lurk sober post drunk: sometimes i feel down about my life, but...jesus, these people are train wrecks made out of human parts.


This is why I Fark.
 
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