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(BBC)   This is your bee: "bzzzzzz" This is your bee on pesticides "Bzzzz hey guys, where all the white flowers at?"   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 25
    More: Sad, Journal of Experimental Biology, honeybees, disappearing bees, pollinators, bumblebees, pesticides, pests, Newcastle University  
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2100 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Mar 2013 at 8:33 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-28 09:03:24 AM
The bee is a ni**BONG**!
 
2013-03-28 09:20:24 AM
Somebody ride back into town and get us a sh**load of pollen!
 
2013-03-28 09:28:54 AM
So serious question here. I'm familiar with how crucial pollinators are, and I know that bee populations have been receding, but is there any real evidence that neonicotinoids are contributing to this? Literature I could point people to to get caught up on the dangers involved? This article was frustrating because the research as presented seems really inconclusive. I'm just not that familiar with the long term studies.

--Thank you in advance.
 
2013-03-28 09:44:48 AM
meh   I'll give you the skinny and skippy on this story.

It isn't that the neonictinoids are doing brain damage, they are doing systemic damage to the bees as consequence to the effects the poison has on their neurology.  Neonictinoids are effective against most species of insects and we commonly use them in pest control because they survive a LONG time inside plants and are fairly easy to get into the plants by simple environmental suffusion.

The trouble comes down to bees being WEAKER against toxins than most insects.  Nicotine kills them and actually protects tobacco plants from most the insects in the world.  The issue being actual nicotine is lethal to almost all mammalian life as well.  So we can't use nicotine safely as a concentrated pesticide and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a country that allowed its sale to random homeowners in the intensity that most pesticide concentrates are sold.

One specific neonictinate called Clothianidin was developed by Bayer Cropscience and then banned in Germany before they even finished a seed-coat trial.  The HANDFUL of dust that came off the seeds as they were planted killed an estimated 350,000,000 bees.
That's a lot.  An awful lot.

So this product was banned from use in Germany before trials ended and they had to destroy the trial crop the moment it came clear of the ground and then they weren't allowed to plant any bee attracting vegetation in the field for a couple years.  This stuff is NASTY to bees.   Sort of the "golden bee-bee" against them if you'll insult my pun.

Millions of dollars of development and no market.  Hmm.
What to do?

I know... why don't you FAKE a safety trial in the US where you put a hive on each half of a field, spray one side with Clothianidin and the other not sprayed at all and plant all sorts of flowers and grains and things in both and see if there's a difference in the death rate of the bees?     This happened.   Since the chemical applied side wasn't successfully predated by a local population of bugs as compared to the untreated side, the bees all went to the pesticide side.  "oops" but Bayer C.S. forced this trial down the EPA's throat.

Aloft, Arena.    Expensive, deadly, effective.
These are two brand names that use Clothianidin, I can buy either for use on lawns and they're ONLY labeled for lawn use.  Not for food, not for trees, not for flowers.  While they work fine as soil treatment for bugs and it does wonders against most turf predating insects the problem is the active chemical quickly absorbs into ANY plant.  This includes fruit trees, flowers and vegetables.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld7U9010.pdf    This is an instruction label.  Anything NOT explicitly stated on the label is NOT an allowed use.

So, it can be used on mulch, soil surface and turf.
And in the US homeowners are able to buy it from Lowes, Home Depot and other hardware and yard supply stores.
There are ZERO laws regulating homeowner application of pesticides in most states.  There's nothing that can be done if John Q Pudlick decides to protect his azaleas and apple tree by spreading it on the ground around them.

Where this causes problems:
Clothianidin is many times more lethal to bees than regular neonictinoids.  Neonictinoids are around TWO HUNDRED TIMES more lethal to bees than most other pesticides.  Clothianidin is also preserved by bee honey.     So Buzzy the bee finds a nice bed of flowers or an orange tree in someone's yard and gets all his friends to show up and collect pollen.  The pollen has some clothianidin on it and some is on the surface of the flowers.  The bees take this back to the hive where it becomes concentrated and gets stamped all over the place by their dirty feet.  Effectively raising the toxicity of the hive much higher than the toxicity of the plants the bees used as a pollen source.

Neonictinates act more slowly than most pesticides.  The sprays and dusts most people are used to using, Bifenthrin for example, kill quickly.  One of the Bifenthrin forms I use daily kills very very quickly.  It is bound to a xylene molecule and comes in a 25% concentrate, with a little help from a surfactant I can force it into almost any plant out there.   Bifenthrin will kill bees, sure.  If I spray em with it.  If they land on a plant shortly after I treated it.   But I don't spray it on flowers, I don't spray it on things that WILL soon flower.

I spray it on surfaces where I don't want the bugs to be, on non-flowering plants I want to protect from insect damage and in gaps and crevices where the insects I wish to kill either enter homes or try to hide.  If I sprayed it on flowers it would kill bees.  So I don't.

So John Q Pudlick goes down to Lowes (fark you lowes, buy better sod) and looks at his options for treating what he THINKS is a bug problem in his lawn (its actually pH and needs some limestone but he's a pudlick) and decides he'll try Sunnyland's Chinchbug Killer with Aloft.  Its a good product and when used correctly it does a fair job.  It can't compete with me and the application rates I'm allowed to use when you follow its label instructions but does John Q follow them?  No.

He overestimates his yard size.  He's only got three thousand feet but buys two bags and a spreader.  He goes home and pushes the spreader a bit and thinks "well, I gotta make what I bought cover it" and spreads the stuff at up to 8x the label rate.  He gets it under the orange tree, in the flower bed and he FAILS to destroy the weeds that are currently in flower or about to flower that the bees may collect from.

The world is FULL of John Q Pudlicks, they do it themselves and almost always spend too much doing it.
For the price of a bag of Sunnyland I can treat John's yard for EVERYTHING including pH and Fungus in one accurate controlled application.  I'll even give quick advice on the phone to help him out on how to apply his product even if he's not a customer.
But Bayer doesn't want me to tell him that he doesn't need Clothianidin.

Strangely bayer makes another product that works just as well, costs less and does more for the lawn AND is easier to use.
Maybe because it isn't new they don't want to sell it?


I'm off to go do my daily work. I enjoy my job, my customers, the sunlight and weather.  I enjoy the ongoing war I take part in.  It's a police action where vigilance and education are the best weapons.  Every day I work is a day I protect property from destruction.
I get to choose the radio station too!

For your perusal:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=ld50+duration+in+fruit+trees+neonico ti noid&spell=1&sa=X&ei=o0dUUfWZOJPC9QTOs4GACw&ved=0CCwQvwUoAA&bav=on.2,o r.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44342787,d.eWU&fp=293ec30c6957a41&biw=1471&bih=955
 
2013-03-28 09:58:03 AM
Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Wow. I came over here to get some relief from the politics tab and man page.

My fellow geeks have really let me down today.
 
2013-03-28 10:53:33 AM

prjindigo: meh   I'll give you the skinny and skippy on this story.


Thanks for that. One of the few dissertations I've enjoyed reading on fark.
 
2013-03-28 11:00:42 AM

Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.


Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.

/Methodist
 
2013-03-28 11:10:18 AM
Don't you worry. It'll take a lot more than a heart attack to kill that old bear.  Old bear! He likes the honey! He never got a chance to see my bee business take off.
 
2013-03-28 11:29:15 AM
Sure Bayer's new pesticide is killing off the bees, but just think about how their shareholders would feel if they were forced to stop selling their poisons that are getting sprayed across the entire ecosystem.  It would be a real drag on corporate profitability.
 
2013-03-28 11:48:05 AM

prjindigo: neonictinoids


Thanks, but are neonictinoids and neonicotinoids the same chemical?
 
2013-03-28 11:54:53 AM

WorkingInParadise: Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.

/Methodist


Could you repeat that, sir?
 
2013-03-28 12:24:54 PM

King Something: WorkingInParadise: Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.

/Methodist

Could you repeat that, sir?



Send message, main office, tell them I said, "OW!". Gotcha!
 
2013-03-28 03:11:24 PM
These are insecticides.  Bees are insects.

Discuss.
 
2013-03-28 03:28:59 PM

ginandbacon: So serious question here. I'm familiar with how crucial pollinators are, and I know that bee populations have been receding, but is there any real evidence that neonicotinoids are contributing to this? Literature I could point people to to get caught up on the dangers involved? This article was frustrating because the research as presented seems really inconclusive. I'm just not that familiar with the long term studies.

--Thank you in advance.


You use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore!
 
2013-03-28 03:35:36 PM
The Starmen have them.  Beware the bad lady's purse.
 
2013-03-28 07:00:22 PM

prjindigo: meh   I'll give you the skinny and skippy on this story.


Thanks for this. I'm about to set up a square-foot garden at my local church that I will be tending, and the church is VERY environmentally conscious. I've never used pesticides in my home garden because I've never really been that serious about yield, but I may have to with this. Please feel free to share any favorite educational materials, reading/brand recommendations, etc.
 
2013-03-28 08:33:25 PM
The FDA simply does not care.
They had studies telling them how bad it was before approval and they buried them.
 
2013-03-28 09:18:32 PM
s3.postimg.org

"Kinky"
 
2013-03-28 10:39:09 PM

WorkingInParadise: Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.

/Methodist


South Park is crude but rarely racist. Vulgar, but rarely racist. Even foul, but rarely racist. Blazing Saddles - funny it's day - not so much now, even though most white folks don't want to admit it. It's just that they're still stuck in a mindset where Blazing Saddles is still funny.

The comments here, but supposedly intelligent people...disappointing at best and definitely racist as hell.
 
2013-03-28 11:14:40 PM

Hermione_Granger: WorkingInParadise: Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.
.
/Methodist

South Park is crude but rarely racist. Vulgar, but rarely racist. Even foul, but rarely racist. Blazing Saddles - funny it's day - not so much now, even though most white folks don't want to admit it. It's just that they're still stuck in a mindset where Blazing Saddles is still funny.

The comments here, but supposedly intelligent people...disappointing at best and definitely racist as hell.


If either Richard Pryor or Cleavon Little were alive, I'd bet a wooden nickle they would disagree with you.
 
2013-03-29 03:07:41 AM
The french have known what causes CCD for over 15 years now and banned that shiat then. But the way we do things in America is retarded, the EPA takes studies done by the bloody companies manufacturing chemicals and takes them at their word. "Oh look, nobody died instantly. Ok, you can sell it!" *rubberstamps approval on chemical* Of course here it's all "mysterious" and "perplexing" because nothing is ever bad if it makes money.

"Vanishing of the Bees" is a good movie about it.
 
2013-03-29 05:37:38 AM

Hermione_Granger: WorkingInParadise: Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Don't ever watch the unedited version of Blazing Saddles. It will possibly make your head explode. Like South Park, it's funny as hell and offensive to almost everyone.

/Methodist

South Park is crude but rarely racist. Vulgar, but rarely racist. Even foul, but rarely racist. Blazing Saddles - funny it's day - not so much now, even though most white folks don't want to admit it. It's just that they're still stuck in a mindset where Blazing Saddles is still funny.

The comments here, but supposedly intelligent people...disappointing at best and definitely racist as hell.

Calm down. It would only be racist if we were talking about Africanized bees. These are your run-of-the-mill honky bees, so it's ok.

/Apis mellifera scutellata please.

 
2013-03-29 06:39:08 AM
She explained: "At the moment, the initial tests for bee toxicity are giving the bees an acute dose and then watching them to see if they die.

"But because bees do these complex learning tasks, they are very social animals and they have a complex behavioural repertoire, they don't need to be killed outright in order not to be affected."


Wat?
 
2013-03-29 11:01:09 AM
Hermione_Granger:

Re: "Blazing Saddles" & racism:

You remember who turned out to be the big hero in "Blazing Saddles", don't you? The black sheriff.. If anything, "Blazing Saddles" portrayed most of the white people in the movie as idiots. Except for Gene Wilder's character, the black sheriff was the only truly clever guy in the movie."Blazing Saddles" wasn't racist so much as lampooning racism.

Oh.. and as it's already been pointed out, Richard Pryor wrote the damn thing.

"Blazing Saddles - funny it's day - not so much now, even though most white folks don't want to admit it. It's just that they're still stuck in a mindset where Blazing Saddles is still funny."

Making a blanket statement about a group of people based on the color of their skin doesn't strike you as oh... I dunno... a little racist, perhaps? Would it piss you off if I said most black folks were still stuck in a mindset where fried chicken and watermelon were still tasty? Racism is racism. It's either off limits or it's not.

"The comments here, but supposedly intelligent people...disappointing at best and definitely racist as hell. "

Some farkers can be assholes sometimes, but in this case, all I see are Mel Brooks fans making movie references.  Save your vitriol for the actual racists.
 
2013-03-29 11:25:14 AM

Hermione_Granger: Fark can't even stop being racist on the geek tab. In a thread about bees.

Wow. I came over here to get some relief from the politics tab and man page.

My fellow geeks have really let me down today.


You sadden me. Clearly you don't have the ability to understand sarcasm, wit and the art of laughing at racism to nullify it.

You know how you make racists powerless? You laugh at them. Hurting them doesn't work, attacking them doesn't work. What does work though, is tearing them a new one with humor.

But clearly, you don't like skewering such things and rendering those people powerless by showing their ridiculousness.

but don't, for a second, ever think that my headlines or anyone else's headlines that quote Blazing Saddles or any other Brooks' film to be a bunch of racists, because stuff like that is the best counter to racism.

also, this is the geek tab, of course references to classic comedies will be in the headlines. (for examples, see every single goddamn Monty Python Holy Grail reference headline)
 
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