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(Bloomberg)   I Can't Drive 55 ..... Miles: Abolishing the U.S. gasoline tax and replacing it with a levy based on miles driven could happen "tomorrow" regardless of hurdles   (bloomberg.com) divider line 372
    More: Interesting, Steve LaTourette, gasoline taxes, Federal Highway Administration, Infrastructure Committee, Highway Trust Fund, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Republican Main Street Partnership, House Transportation  
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13836 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Mar 2013 at 10:43 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-27 11:41:16 AM

Marcus Aurelius: If only we could tax something that cars use to power themselves.


Electricity?
 
2013-03-27 11:42:56 AM
Either go with a full usage tax code scheme and ditch the income tax, or ditch all of these nickle and dime hidden taxes and go with an income only tax.


We have no clue our final tax bill at the end of the year.  The tax system is intentionally idiotic, and people in here are fine with adding new ways for them to add to it.
 
2013-03-27 11:44:31 AM
Just another expert who knows nothing about the real world or a shill on some agenda.
Move along.
 
2013-03-27 11:44:33 AM

farker99: Tax based on (miles driven * weight of the car) / <some magical factor>

The weight of the car does more damage to the road than anything else. Taxing a very light Smart for 2 the same as a Subdivision (Suburban) makes no sense, one really hurts the road, the other doesn't.

/Yes, I do drive small, light cars, why do you ask
//I'm OK with a miles driven tax if implemented as I suggest, otherwise not in my lifetime.


This is the rational way to do it.  "Some magical factor" should be engine, or motor if electric, horsepower.  Multiplied, not divided.
 
2013-03-27 11:44:48 AM
Always remember.  Ride a bicycle to work.  And make sure your bike has a basket for groceries.

You have to save up for gasoline on vacations after all.
 
2013-03-27 11:45:38 AM

fireclown: slayer199: Pretty much this. You know the government will find a way to exploit that GPS data if available.

It was the reason for my breakup with Progressive Flo.
[www.curtisinsuranceagency.net image 314x319]

Ya broke my heart, Flo.


the progressive ODBII device doesn't have a GPS antenna in it, only an accelerometer and stuff to read the odometer, so it guesses how much you drive and also how aggressive.  my wife used it and we got a 20+% discount, locked in forever*.  and besides, the government already HAS the GPS data, unless you are a luddite without a cellphone.  quit being ridiculous.
 
2013-03-27 11:45:59 AM

OtherBrotherDarryl: How about a tax based on the number of miles driven but where there are incentives/penalties for driving more/less fuel efficient cars (ie, a gas tax).


this.  I drive a ridiculously fuel efficient car, partly because I'm a pinko commie lib and partly because I like saving money.  But you know, the earth and all.
 
2013-03-27 11:46:00 AM
I telecommute, so I'm fine with this tax.   BRING IT ON!
 
2013-03-27 11:46:04 AM

OtherBrotherDarryl: How about a tax based on the number of miles driven but where there are incentives/penalties for driving more/less fuel efficient cars (ie, a gas tax).


They would never go for that.  The decrease in tax revenue resulting from more fuel efficiency vehicles is the exact reason they are pushing this type of thing. Providing incentives for driving more fuel efficient vehicles would defeat the purpose of their goal, which is making up for the decline in tax revenue.
 
2013-03-27 11:46:52 AM

papercut: the progressive ODBII device doesn't have a GPS antenna in it, only an accelerometer and stuff to read the odometer, so it guesses how much you drive and also how aggressive. my wife used it and we got a 20+% discount, locked in forever*. and besides, the government already HAS the GPS data, unless you are a luddite without a cellphone. quit being ridiculous.


Plus it is a voluntary program.  If you liked Progressive but not the snapshot program, you didn't need to use it.
 
2013-03-27 11:47:20 AM
You know what's rad? Not paying any gas tax!

Or for fuel . . .

This
carreleasedates.com
plus this
iowaenvironmentalfocus.files.wordpress.com
= never paying for farking gasoline or gas taxes again! I love living that life.
 
2013-03-27 11:47:20 AM

markie_farkie: How about a tax on all the assholes who drive in the left lane TEN MILES UNDER the limit, and refuse to yield to faster traffic..

And by 'tax', I mean 'drone strike'.


Followed by one on the people who insist that the right-hand lane also be a fast lane.
 
2013-03-27 11:47:30 AM

Why Would I Read the Article: Hey remember when Democrats were going to use the gas tax money to fix the roads?  Haha, Democrats are liars.


Here in Minneapolis/St Paul they patched and resurfaced damn near all roads just before election day. The commute was smmootthh. Winter happened, still. All the bandaids fell off and you could lose a wheel real easily on any major road.
 
2013-03-27 11:47:48 AM
Our tax system is so goddamn complicated and manipulable because every tax has to "make sense" to people who have no sense.

The State needs $X to pay for everything people want.  Ability to pay is the pertinent criterion.  All taxes should be income taxes.  Now STFU and GBTW.
 
2013-03-27 11:48:41 AM

MrSteve007: You know what's rad? Not paying any gas tax!

Or for fuel . . .

This
[carreleasedates.com image 620x391]
plus this
[iowaenvironmentalfocus.files.wordpress.com image 850x637]
= never paying for farking gasoline or gas taxes again! I love living that life.


I want a solar setup so bad.
 
2013-03-27 11:48:50 AM
Well, I guess they have to do something<sarcasm>.    And soon people just won't be buying as much gasoline and then how will government steal from them?  After-all, these guys are about to reinvent the auto industry<not sarcasm>.

 Wikispeed - 2 seat mid engine, rear wheel drive roadster, five star crash rating pending, 0-60 in 5 seconds, 100+MPG, and the best part is that in spite of all of that it can't meat federal safety requirements because it doesn't have air bags, only a five point racing harness commonly used to make 200MPH crashes survivable.  And they even have the audacity to be in the continuing process of redesigning parts so that they can be fabricated in a home workshop making the owner completely independent of the auto industry's planned-obsolescence business model. The only way conceivable to build the car is license the manufacture out to as many shops as decide to opt in, because they can't build more than I believe fifty before the air bag thing kicks in.
http://www.wikispeed.com/Affordable

Thank you internet.  This is a first of many transformative ways you will free humanity from oligarchy(hopefully).
 
2013-03-27 11:48:54 AM

theMightyRegeya: markie_farkie: How about a tax on all the assholes who drive in the left lane TEN MILES UNDER the limit, and refuse to yield to faster traffic..

And by 'tax', I mean 'drone strike'.

Followed by one on the people who insist that the right-hand lane also be a fast lane.


And then one for people who stay in the left lane until they're *at their offramp* and then stop until they can get over, holding up all the traffic behind them.
 
2013-03-27 11:49:24 AM
The gas tax is very fair, as far as paying for infrastructure: Larger vehicles damage roads more than smaller vehicles. People who drive more pay more. People who pay a little extra for a car, which is reflected in taxes, (barring any refunds or breaks given) then pay less in usage fees.

It's not perfect, but it works out pretty well in the end.

The only problem I see is that many large trucks have been given exceptions on emissions requirements or are sometimes classified as off road vehicles. It varies from state to state, but in some cases those dump trucks you see with "Construction Vehicle" on the back are exempt from a lot of taxes and regulation, even though they are on the road with you.
 
2013-03-27 11:51:11 AM

theMightyRegeya: markie_farkie: How about a tax on all the assholes who drive in the left lane TEN MILES UNDER the limit, and refuse to yield to faster traffic..

And by 'tax', I mean 'drone strike'.

Followed by one on the people who insist that the right-hand lane also be a fast lane.


Plz don't tell anybody about the right lane. Is mine own lane, always empty and now for the fast movers.
Amazing to come up behind the clot of drivers on a roadway. 10 of 11 will be in the left lane 3 miles under speed.
Why do they all huddle together and block both or 3 or all 4 lanes?? Gravity does not work that way.
 
2013-03-27 11:51:45 AM
"But then you get the black helicopter people saying if you put something in my car, you'd know I was at my girlfriend's house last night."

Concerned about personal privacy?  You must be a paranoid tin foil head.  What do you have to hide?
 
2013-03-27 11:53:14 AM
This is so Obama's drones can follow you to Wal-Mart, Chick-Fil-A, and the strip club out by the interstate.
 
2013-03-27 11:53:26 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Our tax system is so goddamn complicated and manipulable because every tax has to "make sense" to people who have no sense.

The State needs $X to pay for everything people want.  Ability to pay is the pertinent criterion.  All taxes should be income taxes.  Now STFU and GBTW.


No sense. Just has to fool some of the people all of the time.
 
2013-03-27 11:54:04 AM

OtherBrotherDarryl: How about a tax based on the number of miles driven but where there are incentives/penalties for driving more/less fuel efficient cars (ie, a gas tax).


Fuel efficient vehicles are the problem.  They drive more miles per tax they pay.

People who drive fuel efficient vehicles should be the ones who pay the fees since they are not paying their fair share.
 
2013-03-27 11:54:59 AM
Hahahahhah  Suck it fuel efficiency!!

Our government is run by a bunch of retarded, rabid  effing baboons.
 
2013-03-27 11:58:42 AM

snocone: Why do they all huddle together and block both or 3 or all 4 lanes??


www.trepaning.com

I call it "Cheerio Theory" because it seems like everyone clings to the one car going slow, for fear of passing, and being seen by a cop as "Speeding".
 
2013-03-27 11:59:22 AM

MrSteve007: You know what's rad? Not paying any gas tax!

Or for fuel . . .

This
[carreleasedates.com image 620x391]
plus this
[iowaenvironmentalfocus.files.wordpress.com image 850x637]
= never paying for farking gasoline or gas taxes again! I love living that life.


Enjoy that for the few minutes it lasts.  Sure you wont be paying gas taxes, but the politicians are still working hard to take your money.   http://www.portlandpulp.com/stories/Oregon-lawmakers-propose-to-tax-e l ectric-and-hybrid-cars-per-mile-185579392.html
 
2013-03-27 12:00:43 PM

Fark It: I think this is bullshiat.  The healthcare program I'm applying for only has a handful of clinical sites that are in the county, some are 90 minutes each way.  Mass transit isn't an option for most people.  Why go after motorists when you could go after the trucking and freight industries?  An empty truck with trailer is at least 30,000 lbs, and they can weigh up to 80,000 lbs when they're loaded up with cargo.  That wears down infrastructure a lot more than my car....

bdub77: Hurdles being like huge retail companies like Walmart with fleets of trucks on the road constantly and lots and lots of cash to pay for this bill to die quickly and quietly. Right?

Walmart (and FedEx and UPS etc) would love for individual motorists to foot the bill for our infrastructure, or to pay the same amount for their massive fleets of huge trucks that individual motorists do with their cars.



If you don't think they'll just pass on the added costs in the form of higher retail prices, you've got another thing coming. Wal Mart is not going to pay. Central Freightways is not going to pay. Your local grocery chain is not going to pay. You are.
 
2013-03-27 12:01:03 PM

MrSteve007: You know what's rad? Not paying any gas tax!

Or for fuel . . .

This
[carreleasedates.com image 620x391]
plus this
[iowaenvironmentalfocus.files.wordpress.com image 850x637]
= never paying for farking gasoline or gas taxes again! I love living that life.


What if you have to drive more than 40 miles in one trip?
 
2013-03-27 12:01:23 PM

BGates: OtherBrotherDarryl: How about a tax based on the number of miles driven but where there are incentives/penalties for driving more/less fuel efficient cars (ie, a gas tax).

Fuel efficient vehicles are the problem.  They drive more miles per tax they pay.

People who drive fuel efficient vehicles should be the ones who pay the fees since they are not paying their fair share.


The problem with a mileage tax, though, is that, as a country, we should be encouraging greater fuel efficiency, which gas taxes do.  With a mileage tax, it doesn't matter if you're driving a hybrid, a motorcycle or a Hummer, you get charged the same.  The best move would be to raise the gas tax to make up for lost revenue, but no politicians want to do that.
 
2013-03-27 12:01:48 PM

MrSteve007: You know what's rad? Not paying any gas tax!

Or for fuel . . .

This
[carreleasedates.com image 620x391]
plus this
[iowaenvironmentalfocus.files.wordpress.com image 850x637]
= never paying for farking gasoline or gas taxes again! I love living that life.


Where did you get your solar system?  What's the projected payoff time (from savings)?  Are the panels sturdy enough to hold up in an area that sometimes sees somewhat high winds and storms?
 
2013-03-27 12:02:28 PM

bdub77: Hurdles being like huge retail companies like Walmart with fleets of trucks on the road constantly and lots and lots of cash to pay for this bill to die quickly and quietly. Right?


Funny you bring up Walmart because they spent a bunch of money modernizing their fleet and making it more fuel efficient. Replacing the gas tax with a per-mile tax disincentivises that kind of thing,
 
2013-03-27 12:02:49 PM

slayer199: I'm rather conflicted on this because I think people that drive more should pay more for the road infrastructure they use.

On the flip side, there was a strong incentive to drive a more fuel-efficient vehicle to offset rising fuel prices.  So the government disincentivizes fuel-efficiency and indirectly promotes telecommuting.

The bottom line is that this won't have the desired effect because people that have long commutes will adapt.


LOL! I love all the practical "how-can-we-best-social-engineer-the-proles-to-enhance-my-pet-idea?" people on this thread. Not picking on you specifically, just that your post is one of the more nuanced ones.

Thinking through HOW this would be implemented.... There would have to be some sort of GPS device on every single car, right? Either that, or you enter your odometer readings on your IRS 1040 every year (yeah, right, that couldn't be gamed, not at all). No, I think the GPS route would be the most "practical" method. Additional benefit: the government would know everywhere you went and how long you spent there. No, something like that would NEVER be abused. It would just be used to catch turrists and pot tobacco smokers and drinkers of Big Gulp 64 oz sodas and other non-patriotic Murkins.

Please, don't even try to tell me that you don't vote Democratic.
 
2013-03-27 12:02:59 PM

Fark It: jaytkay: You wrongly claimed there is no mass transit outside the Loop.

I said there are no decent mass transit options outside of the city.  I don't have the luxury of a set schedule that I can plan a bus route around, nor do I have the luxury of being able to live wherever I want.  I don't have the privilege of being able to take into account mass transit when it comes to my employment.  For me, and millions of other people, mass transit is not a feasible, reliable option.  It has nothing to do with bus riders being beneath anyone, and I certainly don't "choose" not to use mass transit.  I would gladly take mass transit if I could, but this smug notion that people who don't use mass transit are a bunch of snobs who think they're above common folk or are somehow too good for public transit is horseshiat.


You have no choice about where you live and work?

Are you in prison?
 
2013-03-27 12:04:58 PM

Thunderpipes: slayer199: I'm rather conflicted on this because I think people that drive more should pay more for the road infrastructure they use.

On the flip side, there was a strong incentive to drive a more fuel-efficient vehicle to offset rising fuel prices.  So the government disincentivizes fuel-efficiency and indirectly promotes telecommuting.

The bottom line is that this won't have the desired effect because people that have long commutes will adapt.

No reason they can't raise taxes on both. Since when does that stop them?

Bonus? Hurts more rural people, helps more urban. Democrats tend to cluster more in urban environments.


Bingo. Get all the proles into easily-controlled clumps.
 
2013-03-27 12:06:25 PM

genepool lifeboat: So, what happens when I drive across the border to Canada?  Who gets those miles?


The UN.....
 
2013-03-27 12:07:25 PM

Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Hurdles being like huge retail companies like Walmart with fleets of trucks on the road constantly and lots and lots of cash to pay for this bill to die quickly and quietly. Right?

Funny you bring up Walmart because they spent a bunch of money modernizing their fleet and making it more fuel efficient. Replacing the gas tax with a per-mile tax disincentivises that kind of thing,


It incentivises the localization of goods.   Which would renew local economies in an amazing way.   Long distance shipping would go to rail.
 
2013-03-27 12:08:01 PM

buckets_of_fun: markie_farkie: How about a tax on all the assholes who drive in the left lane TEN MILES UNDER the limit, and refuse to yield to faster traffic..

And by 'tax', I mean 'drone strike'.

There simply are not enough drones....yet.


I had a hallucination one day in traffic about giant robot beetle drones, painted black and white with flashing red-blue eyes, enforcing traffic laws by landing on offenders cars.
 
2013-03-27 12:08:05 PM
Great. This way energy corporations will find a "reason" to bring prices back up to the current prices we're used to paying, and then we'll have the mileage tax to pay also.
 
2013-03-27 12:08:09 PM

Donnchadha: NutWrench: They aren't "replacing" shiat. This will be a new tax on top of the existing gasoline tax, no matter what they say.

But if that money gets turned around into improving and updating infrastructure (and also providing jobs in the meantime) funding government pensions and pork barrels, I'm all for it.


Fixed.
 
2013-03-27 12:09:27 PM
They really need to just increase the gas tax and/or increase plate fees if they need more money. Not only do I not trust the government to track me with a GPS, but it will take a lot of overhead to install/maintain all of the equipment necessary to have a miles-driven tax.
 
2013-03-27 12:09:43 PM

jigger: What if you have to drive more than 40 miles in one trip?


I frequently do 80 miles a day, and I have yet to use anything above the 'trickle' 110v charger. I charge at home, at night, and I plug into an outlet in a lightpole at work during the day. Pretty much whenever I leave home or work, I have 90-100 mile range.

If I want to go any further, my region has level-III 'fast' chargers (20-minutes to 80% charge) about every 30 miles along the interstates. I'm contemplating doing a 260-mile round trip over a mountain pass this weekend.

Carn: Where did you get your solar system? What's the projected payoff time (from savings)? Are the panels sturdy enough to hold up in an area that sometimes sees somewhat high winds and storms?


While that photo isn't from my rooftop PV system, mine is pretty similar. All of my components came from local manufacturers, using local materials, down to the fasteners. I used Outback Power for the inverter, Silicon Energy for the panels, and Tacoma Screw for the fasteners. My ROI is 6.5 years - and the panels are strong enough to jump on top of, hold up a dually work truck and stop a .38 bullet - so I think they'll deal pretty well with most storms.
 
2013-03-27 12:10:11 PM

jaytkay: Fark It: jaytkay: You wrongly claimed there is no mass transit outside the Loop.

I said there are no decent mass transit options outside of the city.  I don't have the luxury of a set schedule that I can plan a bus route around, nor do I have the luxury of being able to live wherever I want.  I don't have the privilege of being able to take into account mass transit when it comes to my employment.  For me, and millions of other people, mass transit is not a feasible, reliable option.  It has nothing to do with bus riders being beneath anyone, and I certainly don't "choose" not to use mass transit.  I would gladly take mass transit if I could, but this smug notion that people who don't use mass transit are a bunch of snobs who think they're above common folk or are somehow too good for public transit is horseshiat.

You have no choice about where you live and work?

Are you in prison?


He has a job. That is not something you readily give up to move to a city (likely more expensive where you're living) where you don't have a job (good luck getting one in this economy).

Are you in your mommy's basement?
 
2013-03-27 12:12:35 PM

JackieRabbit: As electric and hybrid cars steadily take over, the revenues generated by gas taxes will decline. So we have to start thinking about alternatives. I don't think taxing the number of miles driven is the best answer. It may be better for the federal government to levy a transportation payroll tax and use the money to improve public transportation. They could apportion some of the revenue to the states so that state gas taxes could also be eliminated. But they'd have to earmark the funds for infrastructure and public transportation use, lest the states divert the funds to other uses. A payroll tax would take the sting out for citizens fool the proles better, since a smaller sum would be paid each pay period instead of in a lump sum. It would also allow for those who do not drive automobiles to share in the nation's transportation system rather than just pay a train or bus fare that doesn't come near meeting maintenance and development costs.


Fixed

"....share in the nation's transportation system...." Damn, Sparky, that's one really fine euphemism there. Seriously, that's on a level with "helping distribute energy use" when discussing frying someone in the electric chair.
 
2013-03-27 12:13:03 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Donnchadha: NutWrench: They aren't "replacing" shiat. This will be a new tax on top of the existing gasoline tax, no matter what they say.

But if that money gets turned around into improving and updating infrastructure (and also providing jobs in the meantime) funding government pensions and pork barrels, I'm all for it.

Fixed.


You didn't fix squat. I wouldn't support it if it goes to fund government pensions or pork barrel projects. I would support it if it goes directly back into improvements and infrastructure.

Maybe you're pro-government greed, but I'm not.
 
2013-03-27 12:14:36 PM

This text is now purple: Prove I wasn't driving outside the country.


Prove you were, citizen.
 
2013-03-27 12:14:54 PM
Yay, more regressive taxation!

Maybe we could just get to the bottom of the slope and have poor people carry rich people around on their shoulders.
 
2013-03-27 12:14:55 PM
Girion47:
It incentivises the localization of goods.   Which would renew local economies in an amazing way.   Long distance shipping would go to rail.

no it won't.
 
2013-03-27 12:15:59 PM

Donnchadha: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Donnchadha: NutWrench: They aren't "replacing" shiat. This will be a new tax on top of the existing gasoline tax, no matter what they say.

But if that money gets turned around into improving and updating infrastructure (and also providing jobs in the meantime) funding government pensions and pork barrels, I'm all for it.

Fixed.

You didn't fix squat. I wouldn't support it if it goes to fund government pensions or pork barrel projects. I would support it if it goes directly back into improvements and infrastructure.

Maybe you're pro-government greed, but I'm not.


You're interpretive brain cells aren't working too well, are they?
 
2013-03-27 12:16:18 PM

slayer199: fireclown: Doesn't the gas tax already tax you per mile driven?  And at the same time that it encourages efficient vehicles?  If there is a shortfall, the rate can be increased.  I don't like the idea of a GPS dealiewhatsit logging all my travels to the feds.

Pretty much this.  You know the government will find a way to exploit that GPS data if available.


They'll start off claiming they won't. Then they'll make an exception. Then another...

I don't want the gov to know anymore about me than they already do because they'll just abuse it.
 
2013-03-27 12:16:33 PM
This is dumb. The system we have in place now already does this, the more you drive, the more gas you buy. The more gas you buy, the more tax you pay. If you drive an excessively large amount of miles yet insist on driving a low MPG vehicle, then that's your choice and you have no room to complain. High MPG cars are typically lighter weight and cause less wear/tear on roads so it pretty much evens out.
 
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