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(Opposing Views)   Adorable 11-year-old girl reminds everyone that taking away gay people's rights is an idea folks can rally behind regardless of age   (opposingviews.com) divider line 188
    More: Interesting, civil laws, Minnesota House, rally  
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15281 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Mar 2013 at 9:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-27 06:44:55 AM
i2.ytimg.com
 
2013-03-27 07:02:48 AM
Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.
 
2013-03-27 07:12:55 AM

AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.


Uh...she'd be 16 or 21, respectively. Anyone marrying that young needs a good smack.
 
2013-03-27 07:18:17 AM
Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?
 
2013-03-27 07:38:21 AM
Am I the only one who is sick of parents putting words into the mouths of their kids and whoring them out in public?

This is not the first time it's been done.

And what next? Should single parents have their kids taken away from them and placed in foster homes because they don't have both a mommy and a daddy?

I saw someone on some news program last night from a very poorly named organization - something like the American Freedom League (I don't remember the exact name) arguing against the freedom for gays in the US to get married. He said something about gay marriage being forced on everyone, but unless there is a movement to force me to get married to another man that I don't know about then being against gay marriage is just crazy.

Newsflash: Gay people already live together and many of them already have children. Most Americans believe gay people should be allowed to marry, but the more I hear about it the more I think marriage should be left to churches instead of the law. Civil unions for everyone in the eyes of the law. If a church doesn't want to perform a ceremony for a gay couple, they shouldn't be forced to, but if you want legal protections just hire a lawyer and sign a contract instead of getting a marriage certificate (yes, that goes for heterosexual couples too). It should be fairly boiler-plate.

I don't care if God does hate f homosexuals. We all have different ideas about "god" and we have separation of church and state. This nonsense needs to end.
 
2013-03-27 07:53:42 AM
Why is an 11 y/o even speaking at something like this? If those were her father's views then he should have spoken, but I guess bigotry sounds better when coming from a kid.
 
2013-03-27 07:55:56 AM
She was attacked "viscously?"

That leads to some nasty images in a story about homosexuals.
 
2013-03-27 08:07:49 AM
Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.
 
2013-03-27 08:52:05 AM
Happy Hours:
Most Americans believe gay people should be allowed to marry, but the more I hear about it the more I think marriage should be left to churches instead of the law.

I never got this idea - basically everyone has civil unions but then you only get to say you're married if a church (presumably you mean all organized religious institutions) signs off on it. But them what - people get to walk around telling everyone from a different denomination or religion that they aren't really married because they weren't married in a Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation of 1915 or whatever their flavor of religion is? Or if a church chooses to marry a gay couple should members of other churches be obliged to recognize that as a legitimate marriage?
 
2013-03-27 08:52:36 AM

nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.


20 years ago the best babysitter I ever had was Mary, and my daughter loved her and her assortment of girlfriends. My daughter and both of Mary's children are straight, healthy and very well adjusted.

/css
 
2013-03-27 08:58:18 AM

nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.


It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.
 
2013-03-27 09:11:07 AM

doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.


As the father of 5 year old daughter I respectfully disagree with this assertion.
 
2013-03-27 09:13:44 AM
Get them to church young, teach the fear!
 
2013-03-27 09:21:10 AM

Krymson Tyde: doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.

As the father of 5 year old daughter I respectfully disagree with this assertion.


Babies are scared of everything. By 5 they've learned somewhat.
 
2013-03-27 09:33:54 AM
Is she arguing against divorce,?  That's going to bust up waaay more families than gay marriage.  Or is one of her secretly gay parents going to leave if gay marriage is OK'd?

No, wait, she's making a pro-choice argument since all children must have two parents in order to be happy and successful, right?

smh
 
2013-03-27 09:58:54 AM

Spad31: AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.

Uh...she'd be 16 or 21, respectively. Anyone marrying that young needs a good smack.


Hey now, I got married at 23... and that was 13 years ago. Age can be irrelevant.
 
2013-03-27 10:00:24 AM

AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear.


MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable!

Am I the only one who is sick of parents putting words into the mouths of their kids and whoring them out in public?


grokca: If those were her father's views then he should have spoken, but I guess bigotry sounds better when coming from a kid.


This, this, this, this, this, and this.
 
2013-03-27 10:00:28 AM
Because, when you're looking for advice on sex and happiness an 11 year old's advice is king.

....f*cking stupid.Who gives a sh*t what other people think? If you love someone, and you're attracted to them that's life. People who don't understand that can take a long walk off a short pier. What happens between consenting adults is their damn business. Not yours. Not mine.
 
2013-03-27 10:01:29 AM
In other news my 11 year old daughter cannot understand why some people care if gay people get married since "they are just normal people like everybody else".
 
2013-03-27 10:01:41 AM
When she is in her twenties she is probably going to look back at this and want to die from embarrassment for ever believing this way.
 
2013-03-27 10:02:48 AM

grokca: Why is an 11 y/o even speaking at something like this? If those were her father's views then he should have spoken, but I guess bigotry sounds better when coming from a kid.


And then he has the chutzpah to complain about "colorful words" on the internet from "anonymous posters." Maybe if these posters had their kids doing the colorful wording, he'd be OK with it.

What a putz.
 
2013-03-27 10:03:23 AM
www.motherjones.com
 
2013-03-27 10:04:32 AM
Sixth grade girls like to declare things as being "obvious" and aren't eager to be convinced otherwise? Quick! To the Romero-copter!!
 
2013-03-27 10:04:40 AM
Oh look how adorable she is, and how can you possibly deny the simple wisdom of a child?

This tactic is tired. Advertisers use this strategy everyday to override rational thought and evoke an emotional one. It's cheap, manipulative, and an affront to well reasoned argumentation.
 
2013-03-27 10:05:14 AM

mekki: When she is in her twenties she is probably going to look back at this and want to die from embarrassment for ever believing this way.


That all depends on how good of a job they do indoctrinating her for the next 10 years. So far so good I guess.
 
2013-03-27 10:05:26 AM
Even though I'm only 11 years old, I know that everyone deserves to have a mom and a dad," Grace said. "If you change the law to say two moms and two dads can get married, it would take away something very important for children like me across the state.

Yes of course you insufferable idiot, if the gays can get married they are going to use up every single marriage license which of course would prevent your friend Timmy from ever having a dad and a mom.

Where's the parent of this twat so I can smack them around some and remind them its not nice to stuff your impressionable children full of moron ideas.
 
2013-03-27 10:05:27 AM
Why would anyone care what a person with no real education, life-, or work-experience thinks about anything?

rollingout.com  1.bp.blogspot.com

Oh, right.
 
2013-03-27 10:06:58 AM
"Even though I'm only 11 years old, I know that everyone deserves to have a mom and a dad," Grace said. "If you change the law to say two moms and two dads can get married, it would take away something very important for children like me across the state."


Wow, I missed this part of the agenda. I didn't know that by supporting gay Marriage I was supporting children being taken from their parents. I love my daughter and my stepsons quite a bit, so this just won't work. Does anyone have the specifics on this? Do they take all of your kids, just one of your kids, or maybe take all BUT one of them? I was always under the impression that families would go on as before, and I am VERY concerned about this new twist. Thank God I had an 11-year old to show me the way.


I guess this affects single parents, too? Anyone know how THAT part is going to work? Will theytake those kids away, or force them to marry someone so that the kids have "a mom and a dad"? Or do they have the technology to reanimate dead bodies, and legislation outlawing divorce? Will they force people to get married if a woman becomes pregnant? This all seems very important... Maybe Grace knows.
 
2013-03-27 10:07:23 AM

MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?


Takin' kids from their parents for thoughtcrime. Nope, no Gay Agenda there!
 
2013-03-27 10:09:07 AM

Speaker2Animals: She was attacked "viscously?"

That leads to some nasty images in a story about homosexuals.


Now, that's what I call a sticky situation!
 
2013-03-27 10:09:08 AM
Please tell me this is manufactured by the left to outrage the left.
 
2013-03-27 10:09:58 AM

jaytkay: [www.motherjones.com image 635x422]


Why am I not surprised that the woman dressing the child in the finest KKK leisurewear has fat arms?  I'm sure if they showed her face and body she'd possess beauty that would make me toss Summer Glau aside like an empty Schlitz can.
 
2013-03-27 10:10:03 AM
I can't decide whether this is one of those situations where the messenger emphasizes the illogic of the message, or one of those situations where the messenger manages to cut through the bullfark and really demonstrate the childishness of the anti-marriage idiots out there.
 
2013-03-27 10:10:22 AM
"These attacks on Grace are an example of how we have already lost many of these freedoms. In fact, it's so bad, they aren't afraid to viscously attack an 11-year-old girl. Imagine what it will be like if gay marriage becomes legal in Minnesota."

Either that, or they are an example of people exercising their right to Free Speech? There is absolutely no reason to send threats and hate mail to an 11 year old girl, but that's not an example of freedoms being taken away...

And in answer to grace's question, it looks like the parent you don't need is your idiotic father. He's dragging you down, sweetheart.
 
2013-03-27 10:11:06 AM
Being the dad of an 11 year old I can say that the parents of this kid deserve a big FAIL.  My kids opinion is why does anybody care whether two people want to get married or not regardless of what sex they are.  She really does not see what all the fuss is about.  Of course she calls her classmates her in the heart of the bible belt ignorant twits at times also.
 
2013-03-27 10:11:41 AM

Nurglitch: the messenger manages to cut through the bullfark and really demonstrate the childishness of the anti-marriage idiots out there


awesome +1
 
2013-03-27 10:12:28 AM
Wow, this is going to be really embarrassing for her when she gets older.


Semi-relatedly, I think the Onion, as usual, hit the nail on the head in regards to the gay marriage issue:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/supreme-court-on-gay-marriage-sure- wh o-cares,31812/
 
2013-03-27 10:12:40 AM
I accidently got this headline mixed in with the one above it about Bill Gates trying to reinvent the condom... awkward.
 
2013-03-27 10:13:33 AM
She can go eat a dick.

An appropriately-aged dick, to be sure.

But nonetheless, an entire bag of dicks for her.
 
2013-03-27 10:13:48 AM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: people get to walk around telling everyone from a different denomination or religion that they aren't really married because they weren't married in a Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation of 1915 or whatever their flavor of religion is? Or if a church chooses to marry a gay couple should members of other churches be obliged to recognize that as a legitimate marriage?


Theoretically this is already believed by the people who would do this.  Plenty of sects say you're going to hell for being the wrong kind of Christian, and there have been wars over it.  If you're dead-certain you're following the correct religion, then everyone else is wrong and therefore those marriages are false.  If you're not such a zealot, the logical conclusion is to let the other denominations/religions do their thing while you do yours, and stay the fark out of their business.
 
2013-03-27 10:14:27 AM

doglover: Krymson Tyde: doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.

As the father of 5 year old daughter I respectfully disagree with this assertion.

Babies are scared of everything. By 5 they've learned somewhat.


She has always leaned toward kindness and love. I've honestly never known a nicer person than my kid and I can't take full credit for that. She's just a loving, caring little girl.
 
2013-03-27 10:15:21 AM

Psylence: Spad31: AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.

Uh...she'd be 16 or 21, respectively. Anyone marrying that young needs a good smack.

Hey now, I got married at 23... and that was 13 years ago. Age can be irrelevant.


It's all individual cases, but the difference in maturity between 21 and 23 can, frankly, be bigger than the gulf between 30 and 50.
 
2013-03-27 10:15:35 AM
Taking away rights?  Are you kidding me?  It's asking for special rights and cramming sick ideals down everyone's throats.  Kudos to the girl for trying, but unfortunately there are too many liberal activist judges and legislators.  The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.
 
2013-03-27 10:17:11 AM

lawlz: Taking away rights?  Are you kidding me?  It's asking for special rights and cramming sick ideals down everyone's throats.  Kudos to the girl for trying, but unfortunately there are too many liberal activist judges and legislators.  The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.


0/10.
 
2013-03-27 10:17:17 AM
I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.
 
2013-03-27 10:17:45 AM
I am sure her idiot parents are very proud of the precious little idiot that they have raised.
 
2013-03-27 10:18:13 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-27 10:18:15 AM

95BV5: MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?

Takin' kids from their parents for thoughtcrime. Nope, no Gay Agenda there!


nice, subtle        but a little obvious    6/10
 
2013-03-27 10:18:57 AM

lawlz: Taking away rights?  Are you kidding me?  It's asking for special rights and cramming sick ideals down everyone's throats.  Kudos to the girl for trying, but unfortunately there are too many liberal activist judges and legislators.  The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.


And the horse farkers!  Don't forget the horse farkers.
 
2013-03-27 10:19:35 AM

bigmoneygrip: jaytkay: [www.motherjones.com image 635x422]

Why am I not surprised that the woman dressing the child in the finest KKK leisurewear has fat arms?  I'm sure if they showed her face and body she'd possess beauty that would make me toss Summer Glau aside like an empty Schlitz can.



In the words of Jesse Custer, "Why is it the greatest champions of the white race always turn out to be the worst examples of it?"
 
2013-03-27 10:19:39 AM

Mikey1969: "These attacks on Grace are an example of how we have already lost many of these freedoms. In fact, it's so bad, they aren't afraid to viscously attack an 11-year-old girl. Imagine what it will be like if gay marriage becomes legal in Minnesota."

Either that, or they are an example of people exercising their right to Free Speech? There is absolutely no reason to send threats and hate mail to an 11 year old girl, but that's not an example of freedoms being taken away...

And in answer to grace's question, it looks like the parent you don't need is your idiotic father. He's dragging you down, sweetheart.


Child hasn't received threats, just hate mail.

Don't care how old the child is. You don't want hate mail, learn not to publicly demand the rights of a whole populace of the United States continue to be taken away. It's only because we tolerate such hatred and bigotry that it's allowed to flourish like we've seen.

This child shouldn't fear violent or physical retaliation but has to learn that there will be an outpouring of people who are repulsed and sickened by her attitude and what she is trying to preach. She's advocating for the rights of human beings to be continued to be denied, it's only natural for people to lash back at her.
 
2013-03-27 10:21:47 AM
Well, what do you know?  An 11-year-old CAN be a coont.
 
2013-03-27 10:23:26 AM
So the father is worried that gay marriage will, somehow, affect his freedom of speech, and at the same time he's upset about people exercising their own in online comments about his daughter, who he allowed to pull this publicity stunt.
 
2013-03-27 10:23:54 AM
Some extremely attractice folks who are pro-marriage equality should seduce the kids' parents and break up their marriage.

It really would probably be a more healthy environment for raising a girl who obviously has had a negative, hate-filled beginning to life.
 
2013-03-27 10:25:24 AM

Masta Kronix: Mikey1969: "These attacks on Grace are an example of how we have already lost many of these freedoms. In fact, it's so bad, they aren't afraid to viscously attack an 11-year-old girl. Imagine what it will be like if gay marriage becomes legal in Minnesota."

Either that, or they are an example of people exercising their right to Free Speech? There is absolutely no reason to send threats and hate mail to an 11 year old girl, but that's not an example of freedoms being taken away...

And in answer to grace's question, it looks like the parent you don't need is your idiotic father. He's dragging you down, sweetheart.

Child hasn't received threats, just hate mail.

Don't care how old the child is. You don't want hate mail, learn not to publicly demand the rights of a whole populace of the United States continue to be taken away. It's only because we tolerate such hatred and bigotry that it's allowed to flourish like we've seen.

This child shouldn't fear violent or physical retaliation but has to learn that there will be an outpouring of people who are repulsed and sickened by her attitude and what she is trying to preach. She's advocating for the rights of human beings to be continued to be denied, it's only natural for people to lash back at her.


To be fair, if she had been speaking in support if gay marriage, she would have recieved hatemail all the same.
 
2013-03-27 10:25:34 AM

wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.


Yep.

And if you can't tell the difference between tolerance over someones race and sexual orientation and tolerance over someones hateful ideas, then you're a god damn idiot.
 
2013-03-27 10:27:15 AM
When I was 11, I was arguing with my father as to why he shouldn't be shunning his youngest brother for being gay.

Dad turned around about the time my uncle started wasting away from AIDS.  Too little, too late.

I suspect this kid will turn a 180 just like those Aryan Nation Twins not long ago.
 
2013-03-27 10:32:38 AM

wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.


Tolerating intolerance is not tolerant.

It's just dumb.

Now, you can "not tolerate intolerance" without being an asshole, but it isn't easy.
 
2013-03-27 10:34:54 AM

Benjamin Orr: In other news my 11 year old daughter cannot understand why some people care if gay people get married since "they are just normal people like everybody else".


I had a class full of 12 year olds (this was a Jewish studies class) ask me the same question. You know how awkward it is to have to tell them "Because people are jerks, and what's worse is they co-opt YOUR religious tradition to justify it?"

Also, kids very much learn how to hate from the people they're around. Remember that pic of the KKK minidragon approaching the black cop? That kid doesn't have the capacity for irrational hate yet, and is exploring the world on his own terms.

// off to look for the pic
// talk about worth 1,000 words...
 
2013-03-27 10:35:57 AM
Why would anyone care about a 11-year olds opinions on this?  Wouldn't it be easier to just ask her parents who told her what to say?
 
2013-03-27 10:36:02 AM
s3-ec.buzzfed.com
 
2013-03-27 10:36:55 AM

wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.


She's 11. She doesn't have an opinion. She has an ability to parrot her parents' opinions.
 
2013-03-27 10:37:20 AM
She is going to feel so silly in a few years when she's using her mouth for more enjoyable things, such as pleasuring her female college roommate.
 
2013-03-27 10:38:45 AM
Definitely not carefully engineered political propaganda parroting by a willing media and useful idiots on the internet.

Couldn't be.
 
2013-03-27 10:38:45 AM
FTA: Jeff also claimed he had "lost" many freedoms, but didn't name which ones specifically.
"Supporters of gay marriage are deceitfully claiming that the legalization of gay marriage won't affect our religious freedoms or freedom of speech. I do not believe them," he told CNSNews.com.


Guy plays victim, prances around a woefully ignorant daughter, and wants deny me my rights because he thinks it's icky and makes him uncomfortable. Dear Lord I hope this girl gets to college, and sees the world outside of the bubble her parents have placed her in.
 
Ant
2013-03-27 10:39:42 AM

Happy Hours: Am I the only one who is sick of parents putting words into the mouths of their kids and whoring them out in public?


No, you're not. I farking hate it too, even (especially) when I agree with whatever point is being made.
 
2013-03-27 10:43:35 AM

Ant: Happy Hours: Am I the only one who is sick of parents putting words into the mouths of their kids and whoring them out in public?

No, you're not. I farking hate it too, even (especially) when I agree with whatever point is being made.


*sigh*. This.

Do NOT put your kids out in public if they are saying anything more controversial than "Puppies are cute!" and "Apple pie is yummy!"
 
Ant
2013-03-27 10:44:20 AM

doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.


Hatred of "other" may be somewhat natural, but if you don't otherize people, you'll have no problems.
 
2013-03-27 10:45:11 AM
And for the rest of her life this will follow her around. Thanks a lot, Dad!

/christ what an asshole
 
Ant
2013-03-27 10:48:01 AM

MayoSlather: It's cheap, manipulative, and an affront to well reasoned argumentation.


The perfect tactic for an opinion that has no well reasoned argument to support it in the first place.
 
2013-03-27 10:48:43 AM

aagrajag: wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.

She's 11. She doesn't have an opinion. She has an ability to parrot her parents' opinions.


You know how I know you have never been around 11 year olds....

They can have pretty strong opinions, of course their opinions are based on what the adults around them say but they can be very strong willed.  As they get older and learn to read and find out other views on things their opinions can be become different from their parents.  I can only hope this is true of most kids in a good sense.
 
2013-03-27 10:49:05 AM
I'm not going to comment on the parents. All I want to say is that I think it's really sad that this girl was in this position period.
 
2013-03-27 10:51:48 AM

lawlz: Taking away rights?  Are you kidding me?  It's asking for special rights and cramming sick ideals down everyone's throats.  Kudos to the girl for trying, but unfortunately there are too many liberal activist judges and legislators.  The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.


6/10
 
2013-03-27 10:52:58 AM

victrin: I hope this girl gets to college, and sees the world outside of the bubble her parents have placed her in.


Ehh, they have places to prevent that sort of thing. Patrick Henry College, Liberty University, Hillsdale College...
 
2013-03-27 10:53:12 AM

xtalman: aagrajag: wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.

She's 11. She doesn't have an opinion. She has an ability to parrot her parents' opinions.

You know how I know you have never been around 11 year olds....

They can have pretty strong opinions, of course their opinions are based on what the adults around them say but they can be very strong willed.  As they get older and learn to read and find out other views on things their opinions can be become different from their parents.  I can only hope this is true of most kids in a good sense.


The vehemence with which they state those opinions does not relate to the extent to which they've actually thought them out. Of course, that's also applicable to most adults.

//teacher, actually
 
2013-03-27 10:54:02 AM
Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage. You really want your kids to be to the right of him?
 
Ant
2013-03-27 10:54:57 AM

lawlz: The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.


Because two consenting adults getting hitched is  exactly the same as an adult farking a kid.
 
2013-03-27 10:56:24 AM
I can almost understand the outrage from the right on this one.
If I go into a room of physicists and claim I'm also a physicist, they will not like it.
Physicist has a meaning and I don't actually live up to that.  If just anyone would be able to be called a physicist it would devalue the position of trained professionals.


But as I said, "almost'.  Marriage, as a word has no such importance.  It is not aqualification for anything but some automatic paperwork such as living will and power ofattorney and establishes an official record for joint filing and tax methods.

It conveys no special education or knowledge about any given topic.  That is evident by all of the stupid people that have been married since the beginning of the practice.  It is not a title gained by people educated enough to raise children, own a house, or anything of any significant impact.

It is merely an agreement between two adults that they will take care of each other, that's it.
 
Ant
2013-03-27 10:57:41 AM

Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]


Holy shiat! When and where was that taken? That's child abuse.
 
2013-03-27 11:02:35 AM

Benjamin Orr: In other news my 11 year old daughter cannot understand why some people care if gay people get married since "they are just normal people like everybody else".


As does my 12 year old daughter.
I bet they both know why, though, really.
Hate.
 
2013-03-27 11:03:48 AM

Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]


That makes me sad and today I didn't need the help.
 
2013-03-27 11:04:03 AM

Ant: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

Holy shiat! When and where was that taken? That's child abuse.


Go and learn.

// no, really - this is a freaking awesome story
// I think this should be Lesson The First in every PSYC101 class ever
 
2013-03-27 11:06:10 AM

Psylence: Spad31: AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.

Uh...she'd be 16 or 21, respectively. Anyone marrying that young needs a good smack.

Hey now, I got married at 23... and that was 13 years ago. Age can be irrelevant.


True.
I got married at 20. We were engaged when I was 16. (im sure my parents just loooved that!)
Late May makes 24years.

But I tell my kids it's super rare, and they know it.
 
2013-03-27 11:06:33 AM

Evil Mackerel: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

That makes me sad and today I didn't need the help.


I posted the wrong link above. The storybehind it is awesome.
 
2013-03-27 11:08:21 AM

Dr Dreidel: Evil Mackerel: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

That makes me sad and today I didn't need the help.

I posted the wrong link above. The storybehind it is awesome.


Thanks. I was looking for the meat, there.
 
2013-03-27 11:10:17 AM

Dr Dreidel: Ant: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

Holy shiat! When and where was that taken? That's child abuse.

Go and learn.

// no, really - this is a freaking awesome story
// I think this should be Lesson The First in every PSYC101 class ever


So what does the picture have to do with Jessica Brown Findlay going topless?
 
2013-03-27 11:11:50 AM

Dr Dreidel: Evil Mackerel: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

That makes me sad and today I didn't need the help.

I posted the wrong link above. The storybehind it is awesome.


Ah, thank you.
 
2013-03-27 11:15:50 AM
Reminds me of these gals...

i.huffpost.com

Now transformed into peace-loving, pot smoking, hippies...my how age makes fools of us all.
 
2013-03-27 11:17:04 AM
Her dad needs a vicious ass-kicking to give him perspective. farking victim mentality makes me sick.
 
2013-03-27 11:21:32 AM
"Which parent do I not need?"  Damn, that is some touching stuff! Screw you abolitionists or whatever it is you call yourselves these days, The US of A needs a parent that has uteri and the other to have testici and thats all there is to it!  God  bless America!
 
2013-03-27 11:22:58 AM

jaytkay: victrin: I hope this girl gets to college, and sees the world outside of the bubble her parents have placed her in.

Ehh, they have places to prevent that sort of thing. Patrick Henry College, Liberty University, Hillsdale College...


Where everyone goes nuts and tries out all that stuff Mom&Dad wouldn't let them near.
Which can reinforce the idea that all of the fun stuff is forbidden because of rules.
Unless The Family or some other group gets hold of them.
Wait, The Family teaches godly rules are for suckers and the underling class- God don't care long as you're getting his agenda done.

Who got hold of Bachmann? That stuck.
 
2013-03-27 11:32:52 AM
I believe the children are the future, and then there are the ones like this who just need a good slap across the face.
 
2013-03-27 11:37:11 AM

DeathCipris: Reminds me of these gals...

[i.huffpost.com image 570x763]

Now transformed into peace-loving, pot smoking, hippies...my how age makes fools of us all.


They look like a younger version of the Milton Porn Twins
 
2013-03-27 11:37:22 AM

95BV5: MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?

Takin' kids from their parents for thoughtcrime. Nope, no Gay Agenda there!


Is it really thoughtcrime when they are actually out there actively attempting to take people's basic rights away?

/don't answer that
//don't really care to hear your bigoted crying
 
2013-03-27 11:39:10 AM

lawlz: Taking away rights?  Are you kidding me?  It's asking for special rights and cramming sick ideals down everyone's throats.  Kudos to the girl for trying, but unfortunately there are too many liberal activist judges and legislators.  The next thing the left will be fighting for are pedophiles, and the Fark community will be right there to support them.


How are said rights special if they are something that everybody else takes for granted?

/don't actually answer that
//don't care to hear your bigoted crying
 
2013-03-27 11:39:48 AM

wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.


I don't have to tolerate a hateful bigot, 11-years-old or not.

/biatch is a coont
 
2013-03-27 11:40:31 AM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Happy Hours:
Most Americans believe gay people should be allowed to marry, but the more I hear about it the more I think marriage should be left to churches instead of the law.

I never got this idea - basically everyone has civil unions but then you only get to say you're married if a church (presumably you mean all organized religious institutions) signs off on it. But them what - people get to walk around telling everyone from a different denomination or religion that they aren't really married because they weren't married in a Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation of 1915 or whatever their flavor of religion is? Or if a church chooses to marry a gay couple should members of other churches be obliged to recognize that as a legitimate marriage?


If the government got out of marriage anyone could say they're married, but only the religious bigots would care. And who gives a fark about them?
 
2013-03-27 11:43:08 AM
Which parent do I not need, my mom or my dad?

Grace paused twice and asked that same question two times before closing with: "I hope that you can see that every child needs a mom and a dad. Please don't change your law on marriage to say otherwise."


Wow, I wonder how this kid is going to handle DIVORCE?

---

She is right that a Mom and Dad both bring something to a family, but every family situation is not ideal or perfect. Having a brother and sister bring something important, too, but some people are only children. Some people will never know what it's like to have an older sibling, and some will never know what it's like to have a younger one. For that matter, people are also born white or black, male or female. People will only know life from their own unique perspective.

The whole point of Life is that we see and experience things differently.

Other people are DIFFERENT from you. Give them the freedom to be different. Don't be afraid of it. Embrace it.

/and needless to say other peoples' rights don't "take away" anything. That's a huuuuge gap in the logic of these people.
 
2013-03-27 11:48:11 AM

bigmoneygrip: jaytkay: [www.motherjones.com image 635x422]

Why am I not surprised that the woman dressing the child in the finest KKK leisurewear has fat arms?  I'm sure if they showed her face and body she'd possess beauty that would make me toss Summer Glau aside like an empty Schlitz can.


Don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis as much as anybody, but can we *please* stop trying to ridicule people's views by pointing out some aspect of their appearance we find objectionable?  This shiat cuts both ways -- for instance if I said that hey, nobody should listen to Rosa Parks talk about tolerance because she had cankles?  If we do it, they can do it.
 
2013-03-27 11:56:25 AM
Those parents ought to be monkey-stomped for using their kid to AW their anti-gay agenda. How the fark does
same sex marriage take ANYTHING away from children?

It doesn't.
 
2013-03-27 11:59:26 AM

MayoSlather: Oh look how adorable she is, and how can you possibly deny the simple wisdom of a child?

This tactic is tired. Advertisers use this strategy everyday to override rational thought and evoke an emotional one. It's cheap, manipulative, and an affront to well reasoned argumentation.


I love the way you say things, can you talk some more?
 
2013-03-27 12:05:40 PM

Happy Hours: I saw someone on some news program last night from a very poorly named organization - something like the American Freedom League (I don't remember the exact name) arguing against the freedom for gays in the US to get married. He said something about gay marriage being forced on everyone, but unless there is a movement to force me to get married to another man that I don't know about then being against gay marriage is just crazy.


But this is what a lot of people honestly fear. That's why they get so worked up over it, they start to equate gay rights with giving them the right to force themselves on anyone and the rational part of their brain just completely shuts down. The stereotypical gaybashers-in-the-closet obviously exist too, but most people are just so afraid of change that they can only imagine that small changes automatically mean a slippery slope to losing all of their rights to someone else.

If you want to combat the bigotry, you have to understand it. It's not just being a hidebound asshole, most of the time.
 
2013-03-27 12:06:36 PM

Krymson Tyde: doglover: Krymson Tyde: doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.

As the father of 5 year old daughter I respectfully disagree with this assertion.

Babies are scared of everything. By 5 they've learned somewhat.

She has always leaned toward kindness and love. I've honestly never known a nicer person than my kid and I can't take full credit for that. She's just a loving, caring little girl.


This, this, this, this, this, thissy-this....

/my 8yr old daughter leans in the same direction and I could NOT be more proud of her.
 
2013-03-27 12:07:57 PM
Using children to manipulate others is vile.  Also, an 11 year old girl is only saying what she has been taught and told to say........this is why we don't allow 11 year olds to vote.
 
2013-03-27 12:12:00 PM
She makes as much sense as anyone else on that side of the argument.
 
2013-03-27 12:12:38 PM

doglover: Krymson Tyde: doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.

As the father of 5 year old daughter I respectfully disagree with this assertion.

Babies are scared of everything. By 5 they've learned somewhat.


Um, no they aren't. Most kids are curious and will get into everything to see what it is. They will also do things to test their parents. At least my kids did, and still do. And yes, Hatred is learned, I would go so far as to say that fear is as well to some degree.
 
2013-03-27 12:16:52 PM

MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?


That part of the article made my blood boil.
 
2013-03-27 12:22:58 PM

Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]


That picture is so freaking moving.
 
2013-03-27 12:33:31 PM
So when Obama and the lobs use kids to promote gun control it's ok.  But let a kid talk against LGBT stuff it's wrong. Gotcha, I understand now.
 
2013-03-27 12:35:04 PM

AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.


Any your kids must be so proud that their mother assumes that 11 year old girls can't/don't have their own thoughts and opinions.

My daughter was politically a Democrat, with well-thought-out arguments, when she was 10. Then she grew up.
 
2013-03-27 12:41:02 PM

doglover: nekom: Meanwhile, my 6 year old girl loves her gay aunt and gay uncle, and their respective partners.  Hatred is a learned behavior.

It really isn't. Kids hate EVERYTHING naturally.

Tollerance is the learned behavior. And obviously your girl was raised well.


Tabula rasa, FTW.  My kids ask questions about things that are different.  Answer them well and they grow up to be decent human beings.
 
2013-03-27 12:48:53 PM
How about the father be a MAN and not hide behind his 11-year-old daughter, spitting poisonous vitriol in her ear.

What kind of adult parades his own little girl in front of people and the media to talk about things she cannot truly understand? It's tasteless, disgusting and sickening to see this sort of abuse draped on this child's shoulders. She does not yet have the critical thinking to understand rights secured to us by law or what the United States stands for (liberty and justice for all). One day I hope she breaks the mental shackles her parents are attempting to lock her in with and is able to fully iterate to them just how wrong it was that she was used as a pawn at such an early age.
 
2013-03-27 12:51:03 PM
Now that's just low.They're trying to trump "the letter..."
 
2013-03-27 12:52:29 PM
The part I have trouble with is this- by definition, what makes a dad? What makes a mom?

If this little girl says every kid needs a mom and dad, that's assuming she lives in 1960, when Dad came home from making money at the office and Mom had a roast in the oven. That's farking sexist.

My friend is a stay at home dad. His wife is a very successful neurosurgeon. He also has no sense of direction and is a big teddy bear, meanwhile she's the smartest, most tough as nails woman I've ever met.

So what if she remarried a man like herself? Career driven and strong? Those kids would essentially have two dads, by this twerp's definition.
 
2013-03-27 12:55:20 PM
11-year-old girl: "Since every child needs a mom and a dad to be born, I don't think we can change that children need a mom and a dad. I believe God made it that way. "

God took my father in a car accident when I was four.  I don't think he cares that some people don't have a mother and father.
 
2013-03-27 01:04:23 PM
interesting discussion...
 
2013-03-27 01:07:40 PM

aagrajag: xtalman: aagrajag: wingding: I guess tollerance for her opinion is unacceptable.

She's 11. She doesn't have an opinion. She has an ability to parrot her parents' opinions.

You know how I know you have never been around 11 year olds....

They can have pretty strong opinions, of course their opinions are based on what the adults around them say but they can be very strong willed.  As they get older and learn to read and find out other views on things their opinions can be become different from their parents.  I can only hope this is true of most kids in a good sense.

The vehemence with which they state those opinions does not relate to the extent to which they've actually thought them out. Of course, that's also applicable to most adults.

//teacher, actually


True.
 
2013-03-27 01:12:32 PM

kiwimoogle84: The part I have trouble with is this- by definition, what makes a dad? What makes a mom?

If this little girl says every kid needs a mom and dad, that's assuming she lives in 1960, when Dad came home from making money at the office and Mom had a roast in the oven. That's farking sexist.

My friend is a stay at home dad. His wife is a very successful neurosurgeon. He also has no sense of direction and is a big teddy bear, meanwhile she's the smartest, most tough as nails woman I've ever met.

So what if she remarried a man like herself? Career driven and strong? Those kids would essentially have two dads, by this twerp's definition.


It makes sense, in a way.  Kids need a positive role model that they can identify with(ideally, exposure to the variety that is humanity), and as it happens, a lot of the time that's an adult of the same sex.

But suggesting that it must be a parent is ludicrous and where these people fail so hard. Aunts, uncles, older cousins and family friends can serve the same purpose.

It's the same principle that ends up screwing kids over that get home schooled.  Sure, they're not all screwed up, but a great many are because they're robbed of social exposure.

As a side note, I don't think a male bread winner is sexist, a lot of people fall naturally into that archetype of a relationship and are happy.  It's assuming that's the only way to do things that is bigoted.
 
2013-03-27 01:17:28 PM
This country was formed on the basis that it would favor no religion over the other.  That our laws would be not be based on one religion over the other.  Our "found fathers were deitist (sp) not necessarily 'Christian'". I have heard that gay marriage will bring down straight marriage (although I can't see how straight marraige can get any lower), but I have yet to hear an explanation as to HOW a gay marriage will affect straight marraige.  Marriage is a civil issue, a contractual issue between two consenting adults.  I don't see where a contract must be between adults of the opposite sex.  So if two consenting adults enter into a binding contract that is allowed by law, what they do in their bedroom is no ones business but their own.  Marriage that is sanctioned by a church or not sanctioned by a church is none of the government's business.  So this whole "gay" marriage should really be a non-issue.  Although, we do have so many religious folks who believe their religion is the only right one and we should all bow to that religion...however, I see religion as a cult and as cults they brainwash you and tell you what to believe.  Once you are a member of a religion you lose the ability to think for yourself.  I prefer to think for myself and thereby reviewing all opinions and then making my own decisions.  Opinions are like assholes, we all have them and the usuall stink!!
 
2013-03-27 01:18:26 PM
If other people's opinions on the validity of other people's family were given the weight they deserved, gay marriage would already be legal.

And now, this girl's father:

 media.comicvine.com
 
2013-03-27 01:33:39 PM
When I was 11, I hated Bill Clinton and thought he should be impeached. Why? I didn't really know, but my dad was insistent on it, so that's what I believed. It took a few years before I looked back and thought, "Boy... That was pretty dumb."
 
2013-03-27 01:36:52 PM

Spad31: AbbeySomeone: Gracie's parents must be so proud to have their little girl parroting their ignorance and fear. I'm sure they'll be just as proud in 5 or 10 years when she and her wife get married.

Uh...she'd be 16 or 21, respectively. Anyone marrying that young needs a good smack.


Where were you when I got married at 21? That smack came ten years too late.
 
2013-03-27 01:45:39 PM
"We haven't had any physical threats, but we've had some rather colorful comments about my 11-year-old. I've been monitoring it to keep my family safe and have a heads-up on it. It's really shameful the things that people will say, hiding behind an Internet alias."

And its also really shameful what some people say out in public.

In any case, did Mr. Thoughtful here not understand that when you use your daughter as a pawn for your own cause, there might be some blowback? You cant trot out your daughter into the public like a show pony and then expect privacy or hide behind the "buy she is just 11" crap.
 
2013-03-27 01:46:05 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: The part I have trouble with is this- by definition, what makes a dad? What makes a mom?

If this little girl says every kid needs a mom and dad, that's assuming she lives in 1960, when Dad came home from making money at the office and Mom had a roast in the oven. That's farking sexist.

My friend is a stay at home dad. His wife is a very successful neurosurgeon. He also has no sense of direction and is a big teddy bear, meanwhile she's the smartest, most tough as nails woman I've ever met.

So what if she remarried a man like herself? Career driven and strong? Those kids would essentially have two dads, by this twerp's definition.

It makes sense, in a way.  Kids need a positive role model that they can identify with(ideally, exposure to the variety that is humanity), and as it happens, a lot of the time that's an adult of the same sex.

But suggesting that it must be a parent is ludicrous and where these people fail so hard. Aunts, uncles, older cousins and family friends can serve the same purpose.

It's the same principle that ends up screwing kids over that get home schooled.  Sure, they're not all screwed up, but a great many are because they're robbed of social exposure.

As a side note, I don't think a male bread winner is sexist, a lot of people fall naturally into that archetype of a relationship and are happy.  It's assuming that's the only way to do things that is bigoted.


Oh I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem with keeping hot meals ready and prancing around in pearls and high heels while Mr. Kiwi brought home the cash, but that fits our personalities. He is more masculine and "take care of everything." You hit the nail on the head- thinking that's the ONLY way to do things. Exactly.

I know a lesbian couple- one works in web design and makes lots of money and handles the bills, while the other works part time at a florist and wears lots of pink. Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model. And they have been together over a decade. Most marriages these days don't last that long.

It just irks me that some people make that argument, and it's usually very religious people, saying kids need a mother and father. But that means that now, you're forcing people to be one half of a whole, instead of one half of whatever works best for them. I don't like these kinds of stereotypes, because again, that would make my one friend feel like less of a man because he chose diapers over an office.

CSS- my younger sister and her husband are amazingly similar. Both emotional, both devoid of street smarts, both work a little to bring in cash. They both cook and clean, and they are a wonderful couple. I see them as a Venn diagram- they overlap more than 80%. It's not 50/50. But they have two children and they work beautifully. I dare anyone to say they need to fit a type in order for those kids to grow up right.
 
2013-03-27 01:52:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJhRYYjHThI

You've got to be carefully taught.   Looks like her parents (or at least her dad) did a great job!
 
2013-03-27 01:53:33 PM
I'm sure the retired racing greyhound my ladyfriend and I would like to adopt when we're married/civil partnered (or the Upland Moa we joke about cloning) can deal with having two moms.

/seriously though, reviving moas would be awesome
//they're like real life Chocobos
 
2013-03-27 01:58:43 PM

Strix occidentalis: I'm sure the retired racing greyhound my ladyfriend and I would like to adopt when we're married/civil partnered (or the Upland Moa we joke about cloning) can deal with having two moms.

/seriously though, reviving moas would be awesome
//they're like real life Chocobos


You had me at chocobo.

Are they color coded for where they can travel? Do you race them?

/details are needed
 
2013-03-27 02:00:56 PM
She's kinda hot...
 
2013-03-27 02:17:08 PM
I'm a heterosexual male.  I was born in the late '70's.  I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.  I equally strongly suspect the same would be true if that right were given any time between the day I was born and now, and I doubt very highly that I'll "turn" gay if and when (read: when) that right is given.

Also, I don't anticipate my right to get married being compromised by giving the same right to homosexuals, and frankly I'm not sure what grave and imminent threat it's being "defended" from.

If there's something I'm not understanding here, I would love for some kind Farker to steer my in the right direction.  (I've been wrong on this very site before, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks!)

/Yes, these points have all been made.  I just genuinely don't understand the argument, at least on the level it's being debated.
 
2013-03-27 02:21:07 PM
ME.Steer me.

/and I USED preview.  Batting 1.000!
 
2013-03-27 02:24:32 PM

ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male. I was born in the late '70's. I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.


Nope.  You see, when you legitimize homosexual relationships, men and women who would otherwise procreate choose instead to have hot, gay, non-procreative sex, so chances are you wouldn't be here at all.

am i doing it right?
 
2013-03-27 02:30:56 PM

kiwimoogle84: Strix occidentalis: I'm sure the retired racing greyhound my ladyfriend and I would like to adopt when we're married/civil partnered (or the Upland Moa we joke about cloning) can deal with having two moms.

/seriously though, reviving moas would be awesome
//they're like real life Chocobos

You had me at chocobo.

Are they color coded for where they can travel? Do you race them?

/details are needed


We do race ostriches, and moas were muuuuch bigger.  As for color-coding... we can probably engineer that in.
 
2013-03-27 02:31:48 PM

ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male.  I was born in the late '70's.  I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.  I equally strongly suspect the same would be true if that right were given any time between the day I was born and now, and I doubt very highly that I'll "turn" gay if and when (read: when) that right is given.

Also, I don't anticipate my right to get married being compromised by giving the same right to homosexuals, and frankly I'm not sure what grave and imminent threat it's being "defended" from.

If there's something I'm not understanding here, I would love for some kind Farker to steer my in the right direction.  (I've been wrong on this very site before, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks!)

/Yes, these points have all been made.  I just genuinely don't understand the argument, at least on the level it's being debated.


If gay people get married, all heterosexual marriages become null and void.  They signed up to be a member of a "man+woman" club, not a "whomever+whomever" club.  Their licensing agreement never mentioned "the definition of marriage can be changed at any time".  And now that everyone will be officially single, it will invoke one of the greatest paperwork nightmares of all time.  Insurance policies will be cancelled.  Titles and deeds to cars and houses will be fought over in the courts for hundreds of years.  We'll have to let murderers and rapists go free so the courts can handle all of the domestic property redistribution from all of these annulled marriages.  Parents will stop loving their children, since every child in America will officially be a bastard.  "They can just get remarried" you say.  They can, but they won't.  They won't want to be associated with this hippy-dippy free-for-all love fest.

I hope you're happy.  You just destroyed America.
 
2013-03-27 02:32:25 PM
msnbcmedia1.msn.com
I see a grate future in her eyes.
 
2013-03-27 02:34:20 PM

ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male.  I was born in the late '70's.  I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.  I equally strongly suspect the same would be true if that right were given any time between the day I was born and now, and I doubt very highly that I'll "turn" gay if and when (read: when) that right is given.

Also, I don't anticipate my right to get married being compromised by giving the same right to homosexuals, and frankly I'm not sure what grave and imminent threat it's being "defended" from.

If there's something I'm not understanding here, I would love for some kind Farker to steer my in the right direction.  (I've been wrong on this very site before, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks!)

/Yes, these points have all been made.  I just genuinely don't understand the argument, at least on the level it's being debated.


The argument my Mormon friends make, is that it would force churches and religious adoption places to either act against their beliefs, which are protected by constitutional law, or get sued for discrimination. It's a fair argument, but I counter with- if you want to be self funded and not take money from the gov to run your business, then by all means, turn away who you like. But if you're going to be run with government grants, you have to respect anti discrimination laws. Take your pick.
 
2013-03-27 02:36:13 PM

kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.


I don't necessarily think that's enough.(It may sound bad, but bear with me for the whole post please)  A male child may have a hard time confiding in either female parent, or visa versa, especially if the child were straight.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?

There is a certain amount sexism inherent in psychology, in that we tend to be more relaxed and at ease with people of the same sex(Even as adults, same sex locker rooms, same sex nurses must be present, witnessing of pee tests, etc) as the potential experience there is the same.

It's good to learn to over come that as much as possible, but when it's an intimate issue a child should at least have the option.  Children are not necessarily able to to think it through and be ok with it as adults are, and at that time, dealing with the specific issue is more important than teaching the child the right way to treat people(which by that age the kid is likely already ok with it)

I hope that doesn't come off as some sort of bigotry, it's really not.  It's a temporary tolerance in the face of what may be a larger problem.  Very temporary, they've the whole rest of their up bringing to come to terms with accepting other people, but that moment when they're really in need, it should be available.

Also, I don't buy into ascribing masculine and feminine archetypes for personalities or activities.  I don't think it's any more healthy than saying "men's work" or "women's work", because it implies the same concept....it just sounds a bit nicer.  I just call it "work".
Most of those archetypes can be discarded.  Cooking is not "feminine", nor is child rearing, color preference, or a million other little things(ie toy preferences). Being timid, or strong willed, aggressive, etc.  None of them are necessarily belonging to any given sex, and deeming them masculine and feminine only propogates prejudice.

About the only way I can think of it remaining useful, having a justified use, is physical descriptors.  A feminine male is more lithe and graceful.  a masculine female is more sturdy and strong.  In that case, it is inherent to what, across most species is, is a physical aspect of the sexes.
 
2013-03-27 02:36:13 PM

stonicus: ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male.  I was born in the late '70's.  I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.  I equally strongly suspect the same would be true if that right were given any time between the day I was born and now, and I doubt very highly that I'll "turn" gay if and when (read: when) that right is given.

Also, I don't anticipate my right to get married being compromised by giving the same right to homosexuals, and frankly I'm not sure what grave and imminent threat it's being "defended" from.

If there's something I'm not understanding here, I would love for some kind Farker to steer my in the right direction.  (I've been wrong on this very site before, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks!)

/Yes, these points have all been made.  I just genuinely don't understand the argument, at least on the level it's being debated.

If gay people get married, all heterosexual marriages become null and void.  They signed up to be a member of a "man+woman" club, not a "whomever+whomever" club.  Their licensing agreement never mentioned "the definition of marriage can be changed at any time".  And now that everyone will be officially single, it will invoke one of the greatest paperwork nightmares of all time.  Insurance policies will be cancelled.  Titles and deeds to cars and houses will be fought over in the courts for hundreds of years.  We'll have to let murderers and rapists go free so the courts can handle all of the domestic property redistribution from all of these annulled marriages.  Parents will stop loving their children, since every child in America will officially be a bastard.  "They can just get remarried" you say.  They can, but they won't.  They won't want to be associated with this hippy-dippy free-for-all love fest.

I hope you're happy.  You just destroyed America.


*applause*

That was beautiful. Truly moving.
 
2013-03-27 02:37:23 PM
I think we should have all our rights and laws decided by people who are 11 years old.
 
2013-03-27 02:39:40 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

I don't necessarily think that's enough.(It may sound bad, but bear with me for the whole post please)  A male child may have a hard time confiding in either female parent, or visa versa, especially if the child were straight.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?

There is a certain amount sexism inherent in psychology, in that we tend to be more relaxed and at ease with people of the same sex(Even as adults, same sex locker rooms, same sex nurses must be present, witnessing of pee tests, etc) as the potential experience there is the same.

It's good to learn to over come that as much as possible, but when it's an intimate issue a child should at least have the option.  Children are not necessarily able to to think it through and be ok with it as adults are, and at that time, dealing with the specific issue is more important than teaching the child the right way to treat people(which by that age the kid is likely already ok with it)

I hope that doesn't come off as some sort of bigotry, it's really not.  It's a temporary tolerance in the face of what may be a larger problem.  Very temporary, they've the whole rest of their up bringing to come to terms with accepting other people, but that moment when they're really in need, it should be available.

Also, I don't buy into ascribing masculine and feminine archetypes for personalities or activities.  I don't think it's any more healthy than saying "men's work" or "women's work", because it implies the same concept....it just sounds a bit nicer.  I just call it "work".
Most of those archetypes can be discarded.  Cooking is not "feminine", nor is child rearing, color preference, or a million other little things(ie toy preferences). Being timid, or strong willed, aggressive, etc.  None of them are necessarily belonging to any given sex, and deeming them masculine and feminine only propogates prejudice.

About the only way I can think of it remaining useful, having a justified use, is physical descriptors.  A feminine male is more lithe and graceful.  a masculine female is more sturdy and strong.  In that case, it is inherent to what, across most species is, is a physical aspect of the sexes.


A rational, reasonable argument on Fark? DEAR GOD MAN.

I see your main point, and I'll ask my friend Sara which of her two FABULOUS fathers she asked about that stuff when she was younger.

But your point can be invalidated by mentioning single parents. Ify mom had died and I was raised by my father, I'd have the same birds and bees issue, would I not? I'd probably call my grandma or aunt, which is likely what these kids might do.

You do make a good argument that made me think though.
 
2013-03-27 02:45:59 PM
Unmoved, the House committee voted in favor of the gay marriage bill and sent it to the full House.

What!? They didn't let the words some ignorant adults prompted an 11-year-old girl to say influence their decision. Way to set that girl up for failure, by the way, dickholes. Hopefully she doesn't feel like she personally let all the little kids with two mommies down.

Obviously what nobody has taught her is that what is beneficial about having two loving parents is not that there is a penis and a vagina under the same roof, but that a child is able to witness, first hand, the give and take that goes on in a successful relationship; how to work together to conquer common problems and accomplish common goals; how to solve problems by utilizing social ties; learning that sometimes you must sacrifice something you want or want to do for the sake of your partner's desires. It's about learning to live together as adults in a healthy, productive way--not about inserting tab A into slot B.
 
2013-03-27 02:52:46 PM

kiwimoogle84: But your point can be invalidated by mentioning single parents. Ify mom had died and I was raised by my father, I'd have the same birds and bees issue, would I not? I'd probably call my grandma or aunt, which is likely what these kids might do.

You do make a good argument that made me think though.


Well, it goes inline with my original statement, aunts uncles etc, they can all count.  Maybe I should have referenced that, but it's a whole concept, not a different argument altogether, so it's not invalidated as such.

Some families do not have that, and I brought that up with home schooled kids.

No kid should be sheltered to the point where he/she misses out on that exposure.  And I don't mean seeing the 1 male once a week at the grocery store either. I mean honest to goodness friends and family.  It's real and frequent social exposure that's bigotry busting, not sparse glimpses.

A lesbian couple with a kid that doesn't let their kid hang out with or get to know straights, is no better than a christian male/female couple that likewise restricts who their kid has access to.(well, statistically speaking, their religious views, if any, would likely be less poisonous, but that's beside the main point)

Not implying any specific couple does that, but you know it's likely that it's happened.(your example just happened to remind me of the concept)

I don't hold anything against single parents in general either.  It can be tougher on them to make sure the child has the right resources(that's a pretty apt way of putting it I suppose) to help deal with their problems, but not impossible.
 
2013-03-27 02:53:22 PM

Lionel Mandrake: ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male. I was born in the late '70's. I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.

Nope.  You see, when you legitimize homosexual relationships, men and women who would otherwise procreate choose instead to have hot, gay, non-procreative sex, so chances are you wouldn't be here at all.

am i doing it right?


Would I "turn" gay after all, then, and I just don't know it yet?  The only thing stopping me from sucking dicks is this law?  I've got to tell you, man...*looks into statutue of limitations* I've fractured the occassional law here and there.  I have a feeling that I'm the type of person who would suck dicks if I wanted to, regardless of laws.  (I KNOW that applies to eating pussy.  That was illegal?  Ah well.)
 
2013-03-27 02:55:15 PM

stonicus: ten foiled hats: I'm a heterosexual male.  I was born in the late '70's.  I strongly suspect if homosexuals were given the right to marry a thousand years before I was born, the day before I was born, or any time in between, I'd still be a heterosexual male.  I equally strongly suspect the same would be true if that right were given any time between the day I was born and now, and I doubt very highly that I'll "turn" gay if and when (read: when) that right is given.

Also, I don't anticipate my right to get married being compromised by giving the same right to homosexuals, and frankly I'm not sure what grave and imminent threat it's being "defended" from.

If there's something I'm not understanding here, I would love for some kind Farker to steer my in the right direction.  (I've been wrong on this very site before, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks!)

/Yes, these points have all been made.  I just genuinely don't understand the argument, at least on the level it's being debated.

If gay people get married, all heterosexual marriages become null and void.  They signed up to be a member of a "man+woman" club, not a "whomever+whomever" club.  Their licensing agreement never mentioned "the definition of marriage can be changed at any time".  And now that everyone will be officially single, it will invoke one of the greatest paperwork nightmares of all time.  Insurance policies will be cancelled.  Titles and deeds to cars and houses will be fought over in the courts for hundreds of years.  We'll have to let murderers and rapists go free so the courts can handle all of the domestic property redistribution from all of these annulled marriages.  Parents will stop loving their children, since every child in America will officially be a bastard.  "They can just get remarried" you say.  They can, but they won't.  They won't want to be associated with this hippy-dippy free-for-all love fest.

I hope you're happy.  You just destroyed America.


I may get it now, thanks.

/Seriously with the thanks.  Good stuff!
 
Ant
2013-03-27 02:55:31 PM

TaterTot_HotDish: Don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis as much as anybody, but can we *please* stop trying to ridicule people's views by pointing out some aspect of their appearance we find objectionable?  This shiat cuts both ways -- for instance if I said that hey, nobody should listen to Rosa Parks talk about tolerance because she had cankles?  If we do it, they can do it.


This. Knock that shiat off!
 
2013-03-27 03:01:11 PM

kiwimoogle84: A rational, reasonable argument on Fark? DEAR GOD MAN.


You really moved me with your breasts for bills thread, so I farkied you so as to specifically be nice to you.

But the gay vs straight and some similar arguments get on my nerves.  Liberals can just as easily fall into the same judgement traps that the conservatives do, so I try to walk people through what's rational and what's not.(sometimes I slip on occasion though, or phrase something badly, such is life).

Unfortunately, one side's extremist's or the other will call me gay/straight because I don't share the extremist view, and they ignore the content of the post altogether.  They came in here to argue, and by god/FSM, they WILL!
To some I've garnered quite the reputation, cop hater(or bootlicker in seperate threads), misogynist, racist, etc, by such people.

Sure, arguing an be fun, but it also gets old.  Glad you appreciate it and are willing to share in rational discourse. Maybe we'll set an example for others?  Re-vitalize fark's good old days where we shared information instead of insults?

/not likely
 
2013-03-27 03:02:49 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

I don't necessarily think that's enough.(It may sound bad, but bear with me for the whole post please)  A male child may have a hard time confiding in either female parent, or visa versa, especially if the child were straight.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?

There is a certain amount sexism inherent in psychology, in that we tend to be more relaxed and at ease with people of the same sex(Even as adults, same sex locker rooms, same sex nurses must be present, witnessing of pee tests, etc) as the potential experience there is the same.

It's good to learn to over come that as much as possible, but when it's an intimate issue a child should at least have the option.  Children are not necessarily able to to think it through and be ok with it as adults are, and at that time, dealing with the specific issue is more important than teaching the child the right way to treat people(which by that age the kid is likely already ok with it)

I hope that doesn't come off as some sort of bigotry, it's really not.  It's a temporary tolerance in the face of what may be a larger problem.  Very temporary, they've the whole rest of their up bringing to come to terms with accepting other people, but that moment when they're really in need, it should be available.

Also, I don't buy into ascribing masculine and feminine archetypes for personalities or activities.  I don't think it's any more healthy than saying "men's work" or "women's work", because it implies the same concept....it just sounds a bit nicer.  I just call it "work".
Most of those archetypes can be discarded.  Cooking is not "feminine", nor is child rearing, color preference, or a million other little things(ie toy preferences). Being timid, or strong willed, aggressive, etc.  None of them are necessarily belonging to any given sex, and deeming them masculine and feminine only propog ...


It is a good point, as mentioned above, but I just think with the single parent issues, also mentioned above, as well as the atrocious parenting skills displayed by SOME heterosexuals (see Fark any ol' day), homosexual parents might have as good a chance as many heterosexual ones.

It's gonna be tough all over anywhere, and it's a thorny issue, and again, point taken.
 
2013-03-27 03:04:52 PM
"girl reminds everyone that taking away gay people's rights..."

Based on the article the right of gay marriage has not yet been granted - therefore nothing is being taken away at this time.

Based on this logic any thing that anyone wants can be classified as a right that is being removed from them.
 
2013-03-27 03:08:39 PM

indarwinsshadow: Because, when you're looking for advice on sex and happiness an 11 year old's advice is king.

....f*cking stupid.Who gives a sh*t what other people think? If you love someone, and you're attracted to them that's life. People who don't understand that can take a long walk off a short pier. What happens between consenting adults is their damn business. Not yours. Not mine.


But the homosexuals never let it go aat just this, they want ypunger and younger sex partners. The left wants no age of consent no rules no law no morality.
 
2013-03-27 03:12:10 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: indarwinsshadow: Because, when you're looking for advice on sex and happiness an 11 year old's advice is king.

....f*cking stupid.Who gives a sh*t what other people think? If you love someone, and you're attracted to them that's life. People who don't understand that can take a long walk off a short pier. What happens between consenting adults is their damn business. Not yours. Not mine.

But the homosexuals never let it go aat just this, they want ypunger and younger sex partners. The left wants no age of consent no rules no law no morality.


That sounds like projection from Catholic priests...
 
2013-03-27 03:15:02 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: A rational, reasonable argument on Fark? DEAR GOD MAN.

You really moved me with your breasts for bills thread, so I farkied you so as to specifically be nice to you.

But the gay vs straight and some similar arguments get on my nerves.  Liberals can just as easily fall into the same judgement traps that the conservatives do, so I try to walk people through what's rational and what's not.(sometimes I slip on occasion though, or phrase something badly, such is life).

Unfortunately, one side's extremist's or the other will call me gay/straight because I don't share the extremist view, and they ignore the content of the post altogether.  They came in here to argue, and by god/FSM, they WILL!
To some I've garnered quite the reputation, cop hater(or bootlicker in seperate threads), misogynist, racist, etc, by such people.

Sure, arguing an be fun, but it also gets old.  Glad you appreciate it and are willing to share in rational discourse. Maybe we'll set an example for others?  Re-vitalize fark's good old days where we shared information instead of insults?

/not likely


Yeah, I'm waiting for some troll to tell me to get back in the kitchen, and tits or GTFO.

I honestly see both sides, and I fit nowhere. I am absolutely for gay rights, which pisses off my conservative friends, and MAJORLY against elective abortions, which pisses off my liberal friends. So I'm used to having these kinds of debates constantly.
 
Ant
2013-03-27 03:15:30 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: But the homosexuals never let it go aat just this, they want ypunger and younger sex partners. The left wants no age of consent no rules no law no morality.


Can we just deal with one issue at a time? We're not talking about age of consent.
 
2013-03-27 03:27:41 PM
"Since every child needs a mom and a dad to be born, I don't think we can change that children need a mom and a dad. I believe God made it that way. I know some disagree, but I want to ask you this question: Which parent do I not need, my mom or my dad?"

Which Phelps is her mommy, I wonder?
 
2013-03-27 03:32:13 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: But the homosexuals never let it go aat just this, they want ypunger and younger sex partners. The left wants no age of consent no rules no law no morality.


Are those the special rights I keep hearing mentioned, and yet not mentioned?  Teh geys want to marry, say, 11 year olds?  (You're right about us leftists, though.  I want my hot gay pedophile sex, and the only thing keeping me from it are these damned laws and morality.)

So there's your bite.

kiwimoogle84: Yeah, I'm waiting for some troll to tell me to get back in the kitchen, and tits or GTFO.


Is it trolling if I'm alright with you staying, but ASK for tits or GTFO?

/Oblig./I keed, etc.
//Stay, you seem fun
///Three
 
2013-03-27 03:33:34 PM
FTFA: "Since every child needs a mom and a dad to be born, I don't think we can change that children need a mom and a dad. I believe God made it that way. I know some disagree, but I want to ask you this question: Which parent do I not need, my mom or my dad?"

Your dad, because he is a closet homosexual.
 
2013-03-27 03:42:08 PM

MayoSlather: Oh look how adorable she is, and how can you possibly deny the simple wisdom of a child?

This tactic is tired. Advertisers use this strategy everyday to override rational thought and evoke an emotional one. It's cheap, manipulative, and an affront to well reasoned argumentation.


s3-ec.buzzfed.com
 
2013-03-27 03:50:43 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: indarwinsshadow: Because, when you're looking for advice on sex and happiness an 11 year old's advice is king.

....f*cking stupid.Who gives a sh*t what other people think? If you love someone, and you're attracted to them that's life. People who don't understand that can take a long walk off a short pier. What happens between consenting adults is their damn business. Not yours. Not mine.

But the homosexuals never let it go aat just this, they want ypunger and younger sex partners. The left wants no age of consent no rules no law no morality.


gifs.gifbin.com
 
2013-03-27 03:54:27 PM
There are just sooo many people in this thread that need a solid cock punching. What a terrible piece of shiat some of you must be to actively deny people the same rights you have just for being born. I hope you all get ass-cancer, and no, I don't care if that makes me a worse person than the bigot, I'm already married. fark bigots.

/I am bigoted towards bigots
//bigoted bigot bigoting bigots. Penis.
 
2013-03-27 04:05:55 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: But your point can be invalidated by mentioning single parents. Ify mom had died and I was raised by my father, I'd have the same birds and bees issue, would I not? I'd probably call my grandma or aunt, which is likely what these kids might do.

You do make a good argument that made me think though.

Well, it goes inline with my original statement, aunts uncles etc, they can all count.  Maybe I should have referenced that, but it's a whole concept, not a different argument altogether, so it's not invalidated as such.

Some families do not have that, and I brought that up with home schooled kids.

No kid should be sheltered to the point where he/she misses out on that exposure.  And I don't mean seeing the 1 male once a week at the grocery store either. I mean honest to goodness friends and family.  It's real and frequent social exposure that's bigotry busting, not sparse glimpses.

A lesbian couple with a kid that doesn't let their kid hang out with or get to know straights, is no better than a christian male/female couple that likewise restricts who their kid has access to.(well, statistically speaking, their religious views, if any, would likely be less poisonous, but that's beside the main point)

Not implying any specific couple does that, but you know it's likely that it's happened.(your example just happened to remind me of the concept)

I don't hold anything against single parents in general either.  It can be tougher on them to make sure the child has the right resources(that's a pretty apt way of putting it I suppose) to help deal with their problems, but not impossible.


In the ideal world kids would be exposed to different couples but during the local schools parent meeting on sex ed a father actually said he did not think his 11 year old knew that there were such things as homosexuals.   Most of these "Christian Value" folks pretty much shelter themselves and families from people who think differently.  You know they might sin if they had to think about something vs. believing what is told in some version of a very old set of books that have been translated who knowns how many times.

/Not sure who to be sad for, ignorant dad or said kid of dad.
//I like the books, the stories are good and actually should make you think vs. taking them at there word.
 
2013-03-27 04:07:54 PM

kiwimoogle84: I honestly see both sides, and I fit nowhere. I am absolutely for gay rights, which pisses off my conservative friends, and MAJORLY against elective abortions, which pisses off my liberal friends. So I'm used to having these kinds of debates constantly.


I'm fairly right-leaning (which is a loose definition) farm kid, Dad's a deacon in the Baptist church I grew up in, but I have no disagreement with gay marriage, only some of the concerns about social learning, role models, and other psychological aspects for the children of a same-sex couple, much as omeganuepsilon has alluded to. And much the same, it is not from a bad heart that I have those concerns. So I probably fit nowhere as well, and I've been lurking through these threads for three days afraid to post anything for fear of a poo fling. I think most of those people are way up the queue now. I appreciate you guys for having a reasonable conversation. I was starting to wonder if those ceased to exist. I think a LOT of people are staying away from talking about this issue because of the extreme feelings people express in one form or another.

It's unfortunate we have to be so quick to pigeonhole one another. How in the world some people claim to be enlightened about this or that but won't sit down to listen, that I can't understand. I was taught to listen to everybody, love everybody, and be fair to everybody, and that came from my mother and, ironically, the church. So I don't really know what group I'm supposed to be in.
 
2013-03-27 04:18:32 PM

xtalman: Most of these "Christian Value" folks pretty much shelter themselves and families from people who think differently.


While that is a shame, they're not the only sorts to do that, or shelter in general.

In today's age, everyone socializes a bit less on the whole.  The internet delivers a wide array of information and trading of ideas, which largely gets ignored for it's simpler entertainment potential.

Even fark, cool as it is, is not the same as interacting with people.  It can fill the desire, but does not provide all the other things real interaction does, such as reading people's reactions in expression or allow for any real bonding.
 
2013-03-27 04:32:50 PM
Christ this chick is gonna be a great lay in college.
 
2013-03-27 04:41:46 PM

funk_soul_bubby:  

It's unfortunate we have to be so quick to pigeonhole one another. How in the world some people claim to be enlightened about this or that but won't sit down to listen, that I can't understand. I was taught to listen to everybody, love everybody, and be fair to everybody, and that came from my mother and, ironically, the church. So I don't really know what group I'm supposed to be in.


Well, you're welcome. Once the crazy extremists bluster themselves out, usually the people not blinded by fear or hatred remain. I've been on the fence about this issue before and I'm starting to decide where I lay with things. There are far worse things in this country than whether or not two loving people get rights equal to other citizens.
 
2013-03-27 04:47:03 PM

funk_soul_bubby: I appreciate you guys for having a reasonable conversation. I was starting to wonder if those ceased to exist.


They do seem to be a bit rarer than they used to be, but they are why I have stuck around Fark so long.  When they do happen everyone comes away a bit better or more enlightened.

funk_soul_bubby: So I don't really know what group I'm supposed to be in.


That's the thing, just do what makes you happy.  You have no duty to please others, maybe keep it buttoned for the sake of peace(I do with family), but by and large do as you will.  You don't have a role that you have to fill.(an apt statement considering the topic).

Good god I sound like a hippy.  I'm sure I can be more cynical about it if I tried, but I'm half debating a nap....  I'll give it a quick shot.

I think too much pressure is put on "accepting" people for who they are.  I think the idea is rubbish.
Polite, sure.
Abiding, sure.
I don't give respect to everyone, but I do treat them as if I respect them.  IMO, genuine respect is a thing that must be earned or proven.  Hence the whole "takes it for granted" phrase's origin.

Accepting, to me, carries connotations similar to love and admiration.  I think preaching the sentiment too much and people coming to believe it almost lends to a sense of entitlement or hubris, and a deficit in humbleness.

Same as any spoiled child, even adults can fall into that trap.  I think generations far removed were quite intelligent, in that they deemed pride to be a sin.  People should be encouraged to be fine with who they are, but not prideful of it.  Sure, boast over achievement, but not what you are by default.

Yes, oppressed people need encouragement, or maybe comfort in that they need to build confidence, but I think pride is a dangerous tool to use in that situation, and why I dislike the gay "pride" movement.  Constantly preaching pride teaches people that they're above, not equal, and it goes so far as to short circuit what may have been good intent and results in a state where there's more strife than needed.

There...that's better.  More like the omega people would recognize.  As I said earlier I like to bring the rationality, but I also like to have just a tiny tinge.  That way I can sort out the reactionary jerkwads from the people that will give it some effort and try and understand a point.  As I said, respect should be earned(and likewise, lost, otherwise people are only nice at first...).

Then again, if more people like us are around and less of the others(and a good point, most of them don't stick around later in threads..however, the one's that do are tenacious), I wouldn't feel compelled to identify them.  What's the word, jaded?  paranoid?

Anyhow

Best to you and Kiwi, you both have earned my respect for now.  Here's to many more such discussions. *raises pillow in a toast*
I'll be having that nap now.
 
2013-03-27 05:13:31 PM

funk_soul_bubby: kiwimoogle84: I honestly see both sides, and I fit nowhere. I am absolutely for gay rights, which pisses off my conservative friends, and MAJORLY against elective abortions, which pisses off my liberal friends. So I'm used to having these kinds of debates constantly.

I'm fairly right-leaning (which is a loose definition) farm kid, Dad's a deacon in the Baptist church I grew up in, but I have no disagreement with gay marriage, only some of the concerns about social learning, role models, and other psychological aspects for the children of a same-sex couple, much as omeganuepsilon has alluded to. And much the same, it is not from a bad heart that I have those concerns. So I probably fit nowhere as well, and I've been lurking through these threads for three days afraid to post anything for fear of a poo fling. I think most of those people are way up the queue now. I appreciate you guys for having a reasonable conversation. I was starting to wonder if those ceased to exist. I think a LOT of people are staying away from talking about this issue because of the extreme feelings people express in one form or another.

It's unfortunate we have to be so quick to pigeonhole one another. How in the world some people claim to be enlightened about this or that but won't sit down to listen, that I can't understand. I was taught to listen to everybody, love everybody, and be fair to everybody, and that came from my mother and, ironically, the church. So I don't really know what group I'm supposed to be in.


Thing is, I grew up in a right-leaning home. But one of my mother's best friends was a gay man and he and his boyfriend used to come over every Saturday night for dinner and to play cards. My folks were (and my mother still is) pretty unreasonable about a lot of things (she voted for Dubya twice and would have voted for Cheney if he'd run for God's sake!), but not about this. My folks also, fortunately, raised all their kids to form our own opinions and not to take everything we were told as truth, regardless of where it comes from, but to think for ourselves.

I wish more people would teach kids to think for themselves instead of having their little 11 year old girls be the mouthpiece for their hatred under the misguided notion that if it comes from a child's mouth, the bigotry and hatred won't be challenged for what it is. I mean, maybe this little girl really thinks this, but when I was 11, I know I didn't have such strong ideas about marriage and family relationships. My 11 year old nephew and ten year old niece don't, either. So I'm kinda thinking that the kid was set up to be the parent's mouthpiece here, and that makes me very sad for the child.
 
2013-03-27 05:43:15 PM

grokca: Why is an 11 y/o even speaking at something like this? If those were her father's views then he should have spoken, but I guess bigotry sounds better when coming from a kid.


I'm assuming the gray-haired guy sitting to her left in the video is her dad. You can see him silently mouthing the words as she goes along, so I'm also going to assume he either wrote the whole thing himself or had a big hand in it.
 
2013-03-27 05:49:28 PM
I'm sure it's been pointed out already, but this little troll-parrot's father has NOT lost any rights, specifically his first amendment rights or rights to practice his religion.  What he's experiencing is the backlash against his moronic bigoted viewpoint by others who are using THEIR first amendment rights that he has so far failed to take away.

/you have the right to speak your mind, within reasonable limits
//you DO NOT have the right to not be offended
///you DO NOT have the right to never be told you're an idiot
 
2013-03-27 05:56:28 PM
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that she has an opinion. For her father to shove her to the wolves like that is pretty sickening. I have an 11-year-old son, and his handful of political opinions mirror my own, for now. At his age, I gently introduce basic opposing arguments just to get him to understand the importance of understanding different perspectives. There is no way I would thrust him into the spotlight of such a controversial issue without a thorough understanding of both sides of the argument. And 11 years old is too young to thoroughly understand both sides of any of the current issues, be it gun control, immigration, etc.
 
2013-03-27 05:57:01 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?


Erm, I'm a single father of a 13-year-old girl. And while I occassionally have to seek "expert advice" -- from, for example, my daughter's (female) doctor -- she's not inordinately reticent to talk to me about lady stuff. I respectully suspect the position you coming from reflects your own unease.

When it came time not too long ago to buy my daughter her first bra, I did a little Googling, got out the measuring tape, and took her to the store to buy a couple different styles. No biggie. Same thing with feminine hygiene products (to this point, OTC medicine for a minor yeast infection and sanitary pads). Again, no big deal. Of course, I also buy her make-up, nail polish, perfumed soaps (probably the cause of the yeast infection, btw), etc., etc., often as not when she's not with me. I have not once felt embarrased or "weird" about it.

I'm her parent, I'm responsible for her, and I love her, and I don't let my own ignorance or masculine self-image get in the way.
 
2013-03-27 06:02:26 PM
Kids say the darndest things that you tell them to say.
 
2013-03-27 07:42:58 PM

omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?


When I was in court for my custody battle, my ex-wife's lawyer tried this exact argument. Being as my child was a daughter he tried to argue that I could not fulfill the parenting role. The judge stopped him before he could get far, saying that in all her years on the bench, no lawyer had ever tried this line of argument. When I had my turn, I asked my ex what the HPV vaccine was. She had no clue. My daughter lives with me now.

As far as this 11 year old's concerns about losing a parent, does she think a child should be taken away from the remaining parent if God "calls one home?" This is learned behaviour, my daughter is the only mixed race child in her kindergarten class and not one time in two years has she ever had another child notice or mention it. Kids at that age only see other kids, it's the adults that get bogged down in the details.
 
2013-03-27 07:46:22 PM
Oh little girl,  here's what God said about marriage;   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OFkeKKszXTw#!
 
2013-03-27 07:52:13 PM
FTA: "If you change the law to say two moms and two dads can get married, it would take away something very important for children like me across the state."

So what does it take away from you if someone on the opposite side of your state is gay and married?  Does it make you feel less safe?  Does it nag at your soul?  Does it make you feel that your heterosexual parents are less of a parent now?  Does it make their marriage to each other mean less to each other so they can go out and start dating other people?  Seriously, I'm curious as to what it is taking away from her.
 
2013-03-27 08:31:49 PM

kc278: omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?

Erm, I'm a single father of a 13-year-old girl. And while I occassionally have to seek "expert advice" -- from, for example, my daughter's (female) doctor -- she's not inordinately reticent to talk to me about lady stuff. I respectully suspect the position you coming from reflects your own unease.

When it came time not too long ago to buy my daughter her first bra, I did a little Googling, got out the measuring tape, and took her to the store to buy a couple different styles. No biggie. Same thing with feminine hygiene products (to this point, OTC medicine for a minor yeast infection and sanitary pads). Again, no big deal. Of course, I also buy her make-up, nail polish, perfumed soaps (probably the cause of the yeast infection, btw), etc., etc., often as not when she's not with me. I have not once felt embarrased or "weird" about it.

I'm her parent, I'm responsible for her, and I love her, and I don't let my own ignorance or masculine self-image get in the way.


Cool Story, Bro.

Regardless to popular belief;
1. You cannot read your daughters mind. You are operating
2. Even if you are correct, your anecdotal evidence does not encompass the whole reality of what it may be like for other children and their parents.

Just because your daughter is ok with talking about such things to you, does not mean every other kid will turn out the same way with their parent(s), or that your rather unique relationship will last.

Don't get me wrong, good for you.  I appreciate your situation and admire your ability to adapt and the willingness to go the extra mile. You sound like a great parent, and I wouldn't dare to say anything negative about your specific skill in that area, and indeed, was not saying anything.

But no, I'm not speaking from only my own experience with my parents(and hence projecting my own supposed "unease"), or with any possible kids, but from the perspective of all the people I've known through my whole life that I've discussed such things with.  Everyone has a different tale, even(especially) multiple children from the same parents.

kiwimoogle84: I've been on the fence about this issue before and I'm starting to decide where I lay with things.


That is one of the things I've always loved about Fark.  An idea conveyed can touch many.  A person can discuss such things and maybe have a positive impact on people, as where any random person spouting such beliefs in public is seen as preachy or creepy or just plain offensive(crazy old man on random street corner on his soap box).

Fark does have a kind of power to it, you saw that when you created the thread last week for VB.  That was a great thing, magic happened and needs were met.

In reality, random people don't just butt in with a perspective, and if they do they quite often put people off.

But on fark, where one can speak at length without interruption or be limited by social convention, the subtlest things have a potential to shine.  Despite the coarse and gruff nature that anonymity breeds, some such communities allow for a certain..elegance or brilliance to float to the top.

Fark does that well, because it is not a topical community(say, a forum for discussing only vehicles, or guns), but rather a community that approaches all topics.

I've learned a lot here, from evolution to psychology to sociology to history to well, all the more concrete sciences.  If not from the people, from  a posted link and/or the need to tab over to google and do my own research to understand what someone else is saying.  I love this place, despite the instream of trolls/alts and one off people that think, "Hey, this must be like twitter, I'll be a rockstar here!"

Sometimes, you've got to find it lying in the dirt to really appreciate something.
 
2013-03-27 08:41:36 PM

naugahyde flexport: omeganuepsilon: kiwimoogle84: Any child of theirs would have a masculine and feminine role model.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?

When I was in court for my custody battle, my ex-wife's lawyer tried this exact argument.


Except I'm not making an argument.  I'm discussing what children may need in general, and how it can have a negative impact if it's not available due to prejudice/ignorance of the parent, that every parent can potentially fall into that trap, straight, gay, republican, or whatever variety of liberal.

Sure, you and the other guy are probably great parents, but I'm not even saying you are not.
 
2013-03-27 10:16:44 PM
Theories and beliefs are nice but reality often has other ideas. Let's go through it all one by one.
(Omeganuepsilon comments in italics)
I don't necessarily think that's enough.(It may sound bad, but bear with me for the whole post please)  A male child may have a hard time confiding in either female parent, or visa versa, especially if the child were straight.
I have known a very large number of people who did not feel comfortable confiding in the same sex parent. It is more about the relationship built with the child than the specific plumbing each possesses. Straight or gay is particularly irrelevant in this case.

If two men had a daughter, who does she seek advice from about her period, or bra issues?
Assuming a basic ability on the part of either father to educate themselves, either should suffice. By this logic, one would assume that you doubt the abilities of any male gynecologist.

There is a certain amount sexism inherent in psychology, in that we tend to be more relaxed and at ease with people of the same sex(Even as adults, same sex locker rooms, same sex nurses must be present, witnessing of pee tests, etc) as the potential experience there is the same.
I will give you the first point. I'm not saying that it is right or logical, but due largely to our societal attitudes, this is somewhat true. The mere fact of the existence of homosexuals does make the entire argument a fallacy though. What point is there in having a same gender nurse in the room if they are looking at the patient with potentially the same desires as the doctor? How do my experiences as a straight male compare to a gay male? We are the same gender, are we not?

It's good to learn to over come that as much as possible, but when it's an intimate issue a child should at least have the option.  Children are not necessarily able to to think it through and be ok with it as adults are, and at that time, dealing with the specific issue is more important than teaching the child the right way to treat people(which by that age the kid is likely already ok with it)
Your first statement suggests that it is learned behaviour, if it were an inherent part of nature, it could not be overcome. So, by extension, if the child grew up with same sex parents, the new behaviour would already by learned. As far as options, if required, my child and most others has same gender aunts, grandmothers and cousins who she can also confide in. No man, or woman, is an island.

I hope that doesn't come off as some sort of bigotry, it's really not.  It's a temporary tolerance in the face of what may be a larger problem.  Very temporary, they've the whole rest of their up bringing to come to terms with accepting other people, but that moment when they're really in need, it should be available.
Assuming that the same sex parent is actually there when the child is in need. Last I checked, menses came without any real warning so mom may not have booked that day off work which leaves the girl stuck with dad anyway.

Also, I don't buy into ascribing masculine and feminine archetypes for personalities or activities.  I don't think it's any more healthy than saying "men's work" or "women's work", because it implies the same concept....it just sounds a bit nicer.  I just call it "work".
Most of those archetypes can be discarded.  Cooking is not "feminine", nor is child rearing, color preference, or a million other little things(ie toy preferences). Being timid, or strong willed, aggressive, etc.  None of them are necessarily belonging to any given sex, and deeming them masculine and feminine only propogates prejudice.

Agreed.

About the only way I can think of it remaining useful, having a justified use, is physical descriptors.  A feminine male is more lithe and graceful.  a masculine female is more sturdy and strong.  In that case, it is inherent to what, across most species is, is a physical aspect of the sexes.
So a woman may be more of a man than a man and a man may be more of a woman than a woman? And this does what to all of your arguments?

Except I'm not making an argument.Well, technically you are doing exactly that.ar·gu·ment noun \ˈär-gyə-mənt\
Definition of ARGUMENT (vis Merriam-Webster online)

2
a : a reason given in proof or rebuttal
b : discourse intended to persuade
3
a : the act or process of arguing : argumentation
b : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion
c : quarrel, disagreement
Your posts qualify under 2a, 2b, 3a, and 3c. I will give you the benefit of a doubt on 3b as I sometimes can't find the coherence.

I'm discussing what children may need in general, and how it can have a negative impact if it's not available due to prejudice/ignorance of the parent, that every parent can potentially fall into that trap, straight, gay, republican, or whatever variety of liberal.So any parent can make these mistakes based on all of those factors. Would gender fall into that as well or does gender make you automatically infallible? I know more about female anatomy and biology than at least two of my exes. I had to teach them about their own bodies. For the record, they both had mothers but one didn't have an active father.

Sure, you and the other guy are probably great parents, but  I'm not even saying you are not.No, you are saying that, due to our gender, we are incapable of being great parents which is a completely dick move.
 
2013-03-27 10:26:10 PM
She's just worried they'll have to take away one parent once gay marriage is legalized. She'll get used to it.
 
2013-03-27 10:36:43 PM

naugahyde flexport: Your first statement suggests that it is learned behaviour,


No, I suggest it's instinct, but mostly we can learn to overcome that in time.  I'm discussing established psychological and instinctual principles, not your preferred and idealized and very much fabricated notion of reality(and the proverbial ass-load of logical fallacies and miscomprehension and outright lies about what you want to argue against(which is often clearly not what I meant or even said).

Your post is riddled with flaws of the same sort and the general contrarian nature of the whole thing, so I'm simply going to ignore the rest. I don't know if you're a stalker(your style is very very familiar) or more typical troll that picked me at random to flame, whichever, it amounts to the same thing.  Have a nice life.
 
2013-03-27 10:46:59 PM
Whoever you may think I am, I am not. I rarely post, you can check my history. I am also not a troll as the same history will show. My responses were very logical, at least to me and I suspect some others, and I am not sure what you refer to as "outright lies." I responded to you because some of your statements offended me as this latest one has also done. I took nothing you said out of context, I posted your comments in their entirety and in order. How can they clearly not be what you said? As far as what they meant, by all means, enlighten us. Do you have children of your own? Are you speaking from practical experience or is it all theoretical? I don't mean to offend, I would like to believe that you don't either but it is becoming more difficult.  Truly, which one of us, if either, is the troll?
 
2013-03-27 10:54:33 PM
Fark this little coont.
 
2013-03-27 11:03:11 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: 95BV5: MmmmBacon: Using your child to make an unpopular political point, then claiming she's the victim of attacks on the Internet, is absolutely despicable! You put your child in the line of fire. You made her a target. And now you claim she is being harmed by such vicious slander? Actually, I agree. You, Homophobic Mom & Dad, have harmed your little girl. She should be placed with a family that actually has her best interests at heart.

Perhaps a loving same-sex set of parents will do the job you have so badly botched up?

Takin' kids from their parents for thoughtcrime. Nope, no Gay Agenda there!

Is it really thoughtcrime when they are actually out there actively attempting to take people's basic rights away?

/don't answer that
//don't really care to hear your bigoted crying


And just *how* are they able to take people's basic rights away? Are they politicians? Seems to me they can't do jack to deprive you of your rights, so who gives a shiat about them exercising their 1st Amendment right? Not me.
 
2013-03-27 11:04:30 PM
I will say I called it:

(and a good point, most of them don't stick around later in threads..however, the one's that do are tenacious)

ten foiled hats: It is a good point, as mentioned above, but I just think with the single parent issues, also mentioned above, as well as the atrocious parenting skills displayed by SOME heterosexuals (see Fark any ol' day), homosexual parents might have as good a chance as many heterosexual ones.

It's gonna be tough all over anywhere, and it's a thorny issue, and again, point taken.


It seems I lost your post, I meant to reply at the time, so my apologies for any delay.  I saw it on searching for a different comment and realized I hadn't replied.

Well, hopefully you're not like the last guy.  Some apparently find even my sincere attempts at being good natured offensive, apparently.

I wasn't putting forth that any orientetaion or number of parents is worse by nature of it's composition.

No parent is perfect(perfection is a myth in most regards), and parents with different circumstances may have different challenges, some they may have not thought of.  Kiwi simply reminded me of one specific need that may exist in some and may get overlooked.

Surely, some parents of all varieties are, as you stated are attrocious.  I don't think the rates in each subset would be any different, only that particular issues may be present, different aspects overlooked.

I was not challenging anyone's personal ability.

If one person sees my post and thinks, hey, "Maybe my kid does need a perspective other than my own" and then decides to expose their kid to more variety, I'll take that as a win.  Hell, if it gets around through word of mouth, even ten years down the road to some farker's relative's stepsister raising a kid and hadn't thought about it that way, I'll take it.
 
2013-03-28 12:39:50 AM
Surely just a phase, remember Lamb & Lynx?
 
2013-03-28 01:41:46 AM

Dr Dreidel: Evil Mackerel: Dr Dreidel: [s3-ec.buzzfed.com image 500x657]

That makes me sad and today I didn't need the help.

I posted the wrong link above. The storybehind it is awesome.


Thank you for linking this.
 
2013-03-28 04:05:47 AM
I hope someone takes a poop on her chest.
 
2013-03-28 06:53:12 AM
Wrong to use kids this way.

Of course, no one had a problem a few weeks ago when the video of the young boy defending gay marriage was posted. Then, he was enlightened for his age, not parroting his parents opinion.
 
2013-03-28 07:40:54 AM
FTFA: "Imagine what it will be like if gay marriage becomes legal in Minnesota."
Fire and brimstone will rain from the sky! Hoards of Mad Max rape bikers will overrun Green Bay! Cats and dogs will get ghey married! It will be the Gaypocolypes!
 
2013-03-28 07:28:44 PM
god has nothing to do with it !    Shes brain washed i tells ya
 
2013-03-28 11:53:18 PM
omeganuepsilon kiwimoogle84 Aigoo

I called my old teacher about this tonight. Good friend, great teacher, and partners way back when. And they won.

She entertained my call late at night. What a great person.
 
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