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(io9)   Joss Whedon's biggest setbacks. A lesson in how lacking total control over your project gives Hollywood the chance to fark up a completely great idea   (io9.com) divider line 17
    More: Cool, Joss Whedon, Waterworld, Lesson Learned, gills, lessons  
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7949 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Mar 2013 at 6:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-26 07:30:12 PM  
3 votes:

GAT_00: You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him.  It's a farking religion.  Whedon can literally do no wrong.


This is the sort of comment that just shuts down discussion.

If we like Whedon we can either state that this isn't true, in which case we're defending Whedon and, thus, "proving" the claim. Or we can agree, in which case the point has been conceded.

As rhetorical tricks go, it's an awfully cheap trick, don't you think?
2013-03-26 04:42:46 PM  
3 votes:
Or maybe his writing skills are only liked by a small but rabid fanbase
2013-03-26 05:33:18 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Flint Ironstag: GAT_00: Flint Ironstag: Know how I know you've never visited Whedonesque? The site where Whedon himself posts? people happily criticise things he's done and no one leaps on them or demands they be banned. Of course it's a fan site but to claim no criticism is allowed is just another myth that you've bought into.

Why in the hell would I go to a Whedon fansite when I can't stand the ones on here?


So when you said "You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him. It's a farking religion" you admit you don't know what you were talking about?

You do realize you're pretty much proving my point here, right? I'm automatically wrong because I criticized Whedon.


Circular logic is circular.

You're wrong because you made a claim with no evidence and where the evidence shows otherwise. Posters will freely criticise things Whedon has done on that site and no one calls them a heretic.
2013-03-26 05:24:43 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Why in the hell would I go to a Whedon fansite when I can't stand the ones on here?


That's ok, better to be a Whedon fan than a holier-than-thou political tool I suppose.
2013-03-26 05:04:12 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: A large number of Whedon's projects have suffered failures or setbacks of some form.  The problem with this clearly rests among everyone else, and in no way has the Whedon failed.  The blame cannot, simply cannot rest in the single component that links all of those projects together.  All glory to the Whedon, for he is forever perfect.


If you watch some of his DVD commentaries you'll see he is very happy to admit to mistakes. And no one, even the most rabid fans, claim he is "perfect". But when a network takes a serialised show and airs the pilot last and the others out of order, pre empting most of those for baseball, then yes that does suggest the network is to blame. If your local movie theatre ran the reels of a movie in the wrong order you'd complain.

Buffy itself is a perfect example. Movie (Whedon had no creative control) failed. Tv Series (Whedon in charge) Hit.   And for those who I have seen claiming he comes out with "excuses to blame failure on" it is a fact that Whedon blamed the director for ruining the movie long before it was released. He didn't "jump on a bandwagon".
2013-03-27 05:34:25 PM  
1 votes:

Rwa2play: ecl: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

We're talking about The Avengers right now.  Only women ever gave two sh*ts about Titanic.

And, Sadly, people killed themselves over f*cking Avatar.  Killed.  Themselves.

James Cameron should rot in hell for that.


I dunno, I'd like to think he's doing the gene pool a favor.
2013-03-26 10:42:28 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Flint Ironstag: Know how I know you've never visited Whedonesque? The site where Whedon himself posts? people happily criticise things he's done and no one leaps on them or demands they be banned. Of course it's a fan site but to claim no criticism is allowed is just another myth that you've bought into.

Why in the hell would I go to a Whedon fansite when I can't stand the ones on here?


In fact, you hate it so much you're going to biatch about it here!

You're like Bevets in an evolution thread

Or another certain farker when Space or 3d Printing are mentioned.
2013-03-26 08:48:24 PM  
1 votes:
GAT_00:

Y'know, I don't have a horse in this race. I liked Avengers but I'm not a Whedon fanboy by any stretch - Dollhouse was unwatchable. I just wanted to point out that you are acting like a  total cock in this thread. Your tone is smugly superior and you're making up for weak arguments with personal attacks.

What the hell, man? You're usually pretty cool.
2013-03-26 08:07:16 PM  
1 votes:
I liked 'Firefly' and 'The Avengers.' Not so much the other works.

But then, I like action movies with diverse teams of characters who work well together and have witty dialogue. Who makes them is completely incidental. You could have Aaron Sorkin do a show about space pirates or superheroes with the cast of 'The West Wing' and I'd watch the hell out of that.
2013-03-26 07:31:28 PM  
1 votes:
My biggest problem with Whedon is I never got even a line of dialog.
2013-03-26 07:01:11 PM  
1 votes:
I got jumped on by Whedon fans because I said his work was okay but I didn't get the hype over it. They acted like something was wrong with me because I didn't get all rabid over it like they did.
2013-03-26 06:54:46 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Flint Ironstag: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Flint Ironstag: Whedon did not hire Eliza Dushku. It was her deal with Fox before he got involved. She hired him.

What about the guy that played Wash on Firefly and Adam on Dollhouse?

That's why I said "regular" and "though there were a couple of recurring roles". Amy Acker was the closest to being a regular.

But still the myth persists that "he only hires the same people again and again" when in fact the evidence is he hired a whole bunch of new people for new projects. Even Dr Horrible had two out of the four main cast actors he'd never worked with before, and that was made with his own money! Much Ado About Nothing is out soon and that, again made with his own money in his own house, has lots of actors he's worked with before but still lots of newcomers.

I'm curious when you're going to realize that your "evidence" that he doesn't repeatedly hire the same people clearly shows that he shows a strong preference for actors he's worked with before.


He's going about this argument all wrong.

When confronted with the argument "Mr. X keeps hiring the same actors," his response should be, "So? Who gives a f*ck? Lots of directors work with a stable of actors they're comfortable with," not "NUH-UH!!!"
2013-03-26 05:39:45 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him. It's a farking religion. Whedon can literally do no wrong.

Anyone could have made that movie make that much money after the build up to it. And that movie was much weaker for Whedon writing it.


Those two lines showed me that you are simply a hater and won't listen to anyone who has an opposing view on this subject. You are automatically dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, just like you claim they are doing to you.

FWIW I like Whedon, but I think he has short comings. I also don't think anyone else could have made Avengers as successful as he did.
2013-03-26 05:28:24 PM  
1 votes:

Flint Ironstag: GAT_00: Flint Ironstag: Know how I know you've never visited Whedonesque? The site where Whedon himself posts? people happily criticise things he's done and no one leaps on them or demands they be banned. Of course it's a fan site but to claim no criticism is allowed is just another myth that you've bought into.

Why in the hell would I go to a Whedon fansite when I can't stand the ones on here?


So when you said "You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him. It's a farking religion" you admit you don't know what you were talking about?


You do realize you're pretty much proving my point here, right? I'm automatically wrong because I criticized Whedon.
2013-03-26 05:10:29 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: MaxxLarge: Flint Ironstag: I think Whedon's problem is the perception he has. People who say "His dialogue is always the same!" when it patently isn't.

They say the same thing about Aaron Sorkin...And in his case, they're more right than not.  Doesn't mean I don't still love his work. Just that I know I should expect a certain stylized rhythm, and that's fine. It's his brand.

See also: Smith, Kevin; Tarantino, Quentin; Mamet, David; etc.

Anyone who knows Sorkin's work knows those common elements.  There is for example this video which could only have been put together by a Sorkin devotee.  But a Sorkin fan will be the first to point those out and criticize the weaknesses of his writing style.

You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him.  It's a farking religion.  Whedon can literally do no wrong.

Flint Ironstag: That's a strange claim to make about the writer/director of a movie that took $207 million in three days.

Anyone could have made that movie make that much money after the build up to it.  And that movie was much weaker for Whedon writing it.


Know how I know you've never visited Whedonesque? The site where Whedon himself posts? people happily criticise things he's done and no one leaps on them or demands they be banned. Of course it's a fan site but to claim no criticism is allowed is just another myth that you've bought into.
2013-03-26 05:06:49 PM  
1 votes:

Flint Ironstag: GAT_00: A large number of Whedon's projects have suffered failures or setbacks of some form.  The problem with this clearly rests among everyone else, and in no way has the Whedon failed.  The blame cannot, simply cannot rest in the single component that links all of those projects together.  All glory to the Whedon, for he is forever perfect.

If you watch some of his DVD commentaries you'll see he is very happy to admit to mistakes. And no one, even the most rabid fans, claim he is "perfect". But when a network takes a serialised show and airs the pilot last and the others out of order, pre empting most of those for baseball, then yes that does suggest the network is to blame. If your local movie theatre ran the reels of a movie in the wrong order you'd complain.

Buffy itself is a perfect example. Movie (Whedon had no creative control) failed. Tv Series (Whedon in charge) Hit.   And for those who I have seen claiming he comes out with "excuses to blame failure on" it is a fact that Whedon blamed the director for ruining the movie long before it was released. He didn't "jump on a bandwagon".


So your argument is that unless Whedon runs his story like a dictator and has total control over it, he cannot make it succeed and it's always someone else's fault it fails?
2013-03-26 04:56:01 PM  
1 votes:

Klippoklondike: Or maybe his writing skills are only liked by a small but rabid fanbase


That's a strange claim to make about the writer/director of a movie that took $207 million in three days. Of course Avengers had a huge build up, but it was the actual movie itself that made it such a huge hit and earned excellent reviews.

I think Whedon's problem is the perception he has. People who say "His dialogue is always the same!" when it patently isn't. That claim was everywhere before Dollhouse aired and then hose people went very quiet once it did air and the show was nothing like what they claimed it would be. He's also hugely respected in the business. Pixar raved about the work he did on Toy Story script, Sam Rami raves about him, Russell T Davies raved about him and credits Buffy with having a huge influence on Nu Who.
 
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