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(io9)   Joss Whedon's biggest setbacks. A lesson in how lacking total control over your project gives Hollywood the chance to fark up a completely great idea   (io9.com) divider line 120
    More: Cool, Joss Whedon, Waterworld, Lesson Learned, gills, lessons  
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7949 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Mar 2013 at 6:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-27 03:09:28 AM  

ecl: imgod2u: Flint Ironstag: Klippoklondike: Or maybe his writing skills are only liked by a small but rabid fanbase

That's a strange claim to make about the writer/director of a movie that took $207 million in three days. Of course Avengers had a huge build up, but it was the actual movie itself that made it such a huge hit and earned excellent reviews.

I think Whedon's problem is the perception he has. People who say "His dialogue is always the same!" when it patently isn't. That claim was everywhere before Dollhouse aired and then hose people went very quiet once it did air and the show was nothing like what they claimed it would be. He's also hugely respected in the business. Pixar raved about the work he did on Toy Story script, Sam Rami raves about him, Russell T Davies raved about him and credits Buffy with having a huge influence on Nu Who.

I don't know that you can really attribute all of the Avenger's popularity to Whedon. I mean, Marvell did create the characters and Disney did fun all that CGI.

I mean, hell, Transformers made a ton of money too. Does that mean people love Michael Bay's "writing"? I'd like to believe not and rather, people will see a giant spectacle of a movie regardless of the quality (or lack thereof) of the writing.


I liked the transformers growing up and I hated the Michael Bay movies but I endured because they were giant spectacles.  I never particularly cared for the Avengers as a kid but I did like them in the movie.

[www.badhaven.com image 521x273]


I don't see the racism in those two. All I saw was they were acting like the Three Stooges minus one.
 
ecl
2013-03-27 03:22:23 AM  

imgod2u: Flint Ironstag: imgod2u: Flint Ironstag: I don't think I suggested the success of Avengers was all down to Whedon. I even said "Of course Avengers had a huge build up, but it was the actual movie itself that made it such a huge hit and earned excellent reviews."

I never said you did. I said that it's not really that relevant a factor in the success of The Avengers. We've seen plenty of badly written, horribly acted CGI wonder films -- Transformers, as I pointed out -- do incredibly well financially. Trying to correlate the financial success of The Avengers with any claim of talent of its writer is fairly pointless.

In purely financial terms Avengers did far better than Transformers. The Avengers budget was 145% the budget of Transformers but took 200% at the box office.

But I'd argue that Transformers was a good movie. Movies are a business and it made money. If I could get millions of people to pay $10 a ticket to go see my two hour "Cat on treadmill" movie then I'd be a genius. Bay might just blow shiat up but he does it very well in the way that matters. I love great cinema but I still love watching great films that just blow stuff up the same way I love good food but still happily love a burger every now and then.
IMHO Transformers was a better movie than the Martix sequels. Transformers did exactly what it promised on the poster. The Matrix was a fantastic movie but the sequels let the audience down by not fulfilling the promise.

People may have walked out of Transformers saying it was shiat but they still saw it and enjoyed it while they were watching it. Most people walked out of the Avengers saying it was great.  The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Uhhh, you kinda went off on a giant tangent there. I'll ...


img402.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-27 07:11:47 AM  
Hear your critics, but never let them guide your work.  You're looking for outside opinions not instructions.
 
2013-03-27 07:13:45 AM  
FTFA:  Smallville's Jeph Loeb was on board to run the series, but had to leave after the studio kept dragging its feet.

 Consider tat a bullet dodged, Whedon.
 
2013-03-27 07:50:30 AM  

images.imagecomics.com


/Not really

//Thought Avengers was Michael Bay level lame

 
2013-03-27 07:52:47 AM  

Gunther: Hebalo: Gunther: - Dollhouse was unwatchable.

The first half dozen episodes, yes. The rest of it: fantastic.

I've heard that it gets better a time or two, and I keep meaning to go back and give it another try... but it'd mean sitting through those first few episodes again, and I'm not sure I have the stomach for that.

I think I lasted four episodes and every one was just awful. Dushku just doesn't have the acting range necessary to play a completely different character every week.


The problem is *(and this article highlights it)* Whedon never got what the show was about
 
ecl
2013-03-27 10:06:27 AM  

Freschel: ecl: imgod2u: Flint Ironstag: Klippoklondike: Or maybe his writing skills are only liked by a small but rabid fanbase

That's a strange claim to make about the writer/director of a movie that took $207 million in three days. Of course Avengers had a huge build up, but it was the actual movie itself that made it such a huge hit and earned excellent reviews.

I think Whedon's problem is the perception he has. People who say "His dialogue is always the same!" when it patently isn't. That claim was everywhere before Dollhouse aired and then hose people went very quiet once it did air and the show was nothing like what they claimed it would be. He's also hugely respected in the business. Pixar raved about the work he did on Toy Story script, Sam Rami raves about him, Russell T Davies raved about him and credits Buffy with having a huge influence on Nu Who.

I don't know that you can really attribute all of the Avenger's popularity to Whedon. I mean, Marvell did create the characters and Disney did fun all that CGI.

I mean, hell, Transformers made a ton of money too. Does that mean people love Michael Bay's "writing"? I'd like to believe not and rather, people will see a giant spectacle of a movie regardless of the quality (or lack thereof) of the writing.


I liked the transformers growing up and I hated the Michael Bay movies but I endured because they were giant spectacles.  I never particularly cared for the Avengers as a kid but I did like them in the movie.

[www.badhaven.com image 521x273]

I don't see the racism in those two. All I saw was they were acting like the Three Stooges minus one.


http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2009/06/is-transformers-revenge-o f- the-fallen-racist
 
2013-03-27 10:19:05 AM  
Whedon was the worst part of Avengers (Tony Stark in that film is not the Tony Stark of any Iron Man film I've ever seen). Buffy the TV series was only watchable if you're 12 years old and feel like every character should have sassy backtalk. And I turned off the first episode of Firefly when I heard a character use "gorram" more than once in a five minute period.

If I wanted to hear adults talk like catty prepubescent brats, I would watch reality TV.

Seriously, what the fark is the appeal of this guy?
 
2013-03-27 10:29:20 AM  
You don't say.
 
2013-03-27 10:30:35 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Damn unfetchable urls.
 
2013-03-27 11:04:44 AM  

un4gvn666: Whedon was the worst part of Avengers (Tony Stark in that film is not the Tony Stark of any Iron Man film I've ever seen). Buffy the TV series was only watchable if you're 12 years old and feel like every character should have sassy backtalk. And I turned off the first episode of Firefly when I heard a character use "gorram" more than once in a five minute period.

If I wanted to hear adults talk like catty prepubescent brats, I would watch reality TV.

Seriously, what the fark is the appeal of this guy?


I think you're exaggerating when you say "prepubescent" and you really do mean "adolescent" and in the case of Avengers and Buffy THAT'S THE farkING TARGET AUDIENCE AND THAT'S OK. And it's ok as an adult to like adolescent things. The Clone Wars fits into that category.

As for Firefly, I guess I just disagree. Characters talking funny in sci-fi to illustrate the evolution of language and be able to cuss on tv... well, that's about as old as sci-fi itself.
 
2013-03-27 11:14:11 AM  

mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.


Uh, really?  REALLY?  "Titanic" was a POS romantic drama with a half-ass script  with grade-A SFX.  Avatar?  I saw a far better overall movie called "Dances with Wolves".  Avatar should've been more accurately titled "Dances with Smurfs".

Then again...anybody that disses "The Avengers" but raves over "Titanic" or "Avatar" needs a lobotomy IMHO.  "The Avengers" was good-natured, over-the-top fun; "Titanic"/"Avatar" = buying swampland in Florida that was labeled "prime real estate".
 
2013-03-27 11:15:36 AM  

ecl: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

We're talking about The Avengers right now.  Only women ever gave two sh*ts about Titanic.


And, Sadly, people killed themselves over f*cking Avatar.  Killed.  Themselves.

James Cameron should rot in hell for that.
 
2013-03-27 11:15:41 AM  
I forgot that Whedon was working on Batman: Year One.

If this report about Christopher Nolan being finally convinced to run Justice League is true, then this really has become Nolan vs. Whedon.

/Begun the fan wars have...
//My money is on Nolan.
 
2013-03-27 11:19:39 AM  

Faith Logic Passion: I forgot that Whedon was working on Batman: Year One.

If this report about Christopher Nolan being finally convinced to run Justice League is true, then this really has become Nolan vs. Whedon.

/Begun the fan wars have...
//My money is on Nolan.


After "TDKR"...uh, that's called "losing your money".  Might as well do a Joker, douse your money with Kerosene and throw a lighted match on it.

DC/WB's got super desperate after watching Disney/Marvel rake it in.  People who make a desperate move, usually also make a stupid one as well.
 
2013-03-27 11:22:38 AM  

cannotsuggestaname: GAT_00: You never see Whedon fanatics criticize him. It's a farking religion. Whedon can literally do no wrong.

Anyone could have made that movie make that much money after the build up to it. And that movie was much weaker for Whedon writing it.

Those two lines showed me that you are simply a hater and won't listen to anyone who has an opposing view on this subject. You are automatically dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, just like you claim they are doing to you.

FWIW I like Whedon, but I think he has short comings. I also don't think anyone else could have made Avengers as successful as he did.


I LOVED Whedon's Avengers....

BUT I know another guy who could handle it:
cdn.pastemagazine.com
 
ecl
2013-03-27 12:26:47 PM  

Rwa2play: ecl: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

We're talking about The Avengers right now.  Only women ever gave two sh*ts about Titanic.

And, Sadly, people killed themselves over f*cking Avatar.  Killed.  Themselves.

James Cameron should rot in hell for that.


Or wallow in opulence.  Whichever.
 
2013-03-27 12:29:25 PM  

Rwa2play: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

Uh, really?  REALLY?  "Titanic" was a POS romantic drama with a half-ass script  with grade-A SFX.  Avatar?  I saw a far better overall movie called "Dances with Wolves".  Avatar should've been more accurately titled "Dances with Smurfs".

Then again...anybody that disses "The Avengers" but raves over "Titanic" or "Avatar" needs a lobotomy IMHO.  "The Avengers" was good-natured, over-the-top fun; "Titanic"/"Avatar" = buying swampland in Florida that was labeled "prime real estate".


Did I diss Th Avengers? No, I said it was good, not great. Nor did I rave about Titanic (in my post), but merely stated that it was a more long lasting cultural phenomenon. Which it is.
 
2013-03-27 01:30:08 PM  

mjbok: Rwa2play: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

Uh, really?  REALLY?  "Titanic" was a POS romantic drama with a half-ass script  with grade-A SFX.  Avatar?  I saw a far better overall movie called "Dances with Wolves".  Avatar should've been more accurately titled "Dances with Smurfs".

Then again...anybody that disses "The Avengers" but raves over "Titanic" or "Avatar" needs a lobotomy IMHO.  "The Avengers" was good-natured, over-the-top fun; "Titanic"/"Avatar" = buying swampland in Florida that was labeled "prime real estate".

Did I diss Th Avengers? No, I said it was good, not great. Nor did I rave about Titanic (in my post), but merely stated that it was a more long lasting cultural phenomenon. Which it is.


Uh, sorry.  It was not my intention to bash you for your comments;  just that people that rave over "Titanic" and "Avatar" while bashing "The Avengers" makes me very stabby.
 
2013-03-27 05:34:25 PM  

Rwa2play: ecl: mjbok: Flint Ironstag: The Avengers got the millions of people to see it and got great reviews from public and critics alike. To that you have to recognise that the writing and direction must have played a big part. Marvel must think so since they've asked him to do Avengers 2 and make a new TV series for them.

Here's the thing (to me) about The Avengers (and likewise Avatar).  The movie made a boatload of money, but does anybody still talk about it.  Was it a huge deal worldwide?  Yes.  Was it still three months later or when it came out on DVD?  Not as much.  Compare to the huge deal Titanic was (and still is 15 years later) in the cultural landscape.  I thought it was good, but not great.

//Though Avatar was about 30 minutes too long and kind of boring and formulaic.

We're talking about The Avengers right now.  Only women ever gave two sh*ts about Titanic.

And, Sadly, people killed themselves over f*cking Avatar.  Killed.  Themselves.

James Cameron should rot in hell for that.


I dunno, I'd like to think he's doing the gene pool a favor.
 
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