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(Some Guy)   This is the thread where you defend what you believe in and call everyone else's believes bollocks. Now with a Venn diagram for easy navigation   (crispian-jago.blogspot.co.uk) divider line 531
    More: Cool, Venn diagram, critical thinking  
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16604 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Mar 2013 at 3:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-26 05:55:03 PM

Ambitwistor: MBooda: Ambitwistor: MBooda: Where's Atheism, the belief that there's no God?

Hey, not trolling, just quoting Webster.

In case you're not trolling, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief", whether those two statements are equivalent or distinct, and whether "belief that there God" is as epistemologically justifiable as "lacking a belief in God".


There wolf?

Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.
 
2013-03-26 05:56:10 PM
I love how he thinks he's making an impact.
Nobody who believes he can think critically would disagree, and nobody who actually does would care.
 
2013-03-26 05:58:49 PM

Nightie don't call me Wig: meat0918: Chach: If we're going to call the Shroud of Turin "bollocks," shouldn't we first have a scientific explanation for it beyond "inconclusive?"

We do, it's called Pareidolia
 I'm not sure you know what the Shroud of Turin looks like.


I'll admit I had this mixed up with something else.

I do however take offense to the idea that someone couldn't have figured out how to imprint that on a shroud as a hoax back in the day (like the 1200-1400 AD range).  Religious relics declared false by the heads of the particular religion in question are quite common, and outnumber those declared "true".

I truly find it insulting to human intellect that people have to fall back to the divine or the extraterrestrial or the other supernatural explanations because they cannot imagine ancient humans having the ingenuity and intelligence to do some of what they did.  We have examples of one off technologies like Hero's engine.  Humans built the Pyramids, the Great Wall, the Nazca Lines.

Even today, we are constantly amazed at the lengths people will go to in order to manufacture new hoaxes and scams.
 
2013-03-26 05:58:55 PM

meat0918:

Chach: If we're going to call the Shroud of Turin "bollocks," shouldn't we first have a scientific explanation for it beyond "inconclusive?"

We do, it's called Pareidolia

Wow.  Thanks for the wonderful example of bollocks.  You'll apparently believe anything to support your beliefs.  Tell me if you see a face in the following image:
www.shroudofturin.com
 
2013-03-26 05:59:56 PM

SlothB77: ROLFing?  is that like ROTFLMAO?


It's a form of deep tissue massage. I just learned the term the other day reading this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-26 06:00:13 PM

meanmutton: DesertDemonWY: [i1057.photobucket.com image 700x537]

Hey, I one-up Jimmy and just put certain people on ignore.


Wouldn't want to be confronted with any of those pesky differing opinions would you.

Mouser: meanmutton: meanmutton: MaxxLarge: Mythology is just religion plus time. Forever and always, 100% of the time. No gods have ever been real, or will ever be real... Period.

That's an amazingly unscientific viewpoint.

In case you're wondering, the scientific viewpoint is: No credible evidence has been put forth to lead to a reasonable conclusion that gods exist; thus, we do not accept their existence but are willing to review this conclusion should new evidence be presented.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)

God doesn't need your review to justify His existence.  That's why He's God, and you're not.


If only there were a way to test the existence of things...
 
2013-03-26 06:00:32 PM
rkiller1: I don't know you and couldn't find a convenient email link on your website, so if you wanna read further:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130872485066  If not, then don't.  Peace.


Could you fill me in on why the eBay auction has some relevance? Suffice to say, I've experienced it, and still believe there is more of a scientific reason than any nonsense made up by a swami.

BTW, my website won't have any email links - as it's main purpose is to offer anonymity. I thought I had EIP going on... guess not. Cheers.
 
2013-03-26 06:02:09 PM

MaxxLarge: GeneralJim: MaxxLarge: No gods have ever been real, or will ever be real... Period.And you would prove that statement.... How, exactly?

I don't need to. It's BEEN proven via history, biology, astronomy, physics, and a hundred other disciplines.


I proved it with tea leaves and phrenology.
 
2013-03-26 06:02:32 PM

fusillade762: SlothB77: ROLFing?  is that like ROTFLMAO?

It's a form of deep tissue massage. I just learned the term the other day reading this:


"Why People Believe Weird Things" is a good book.  I also really like Gilovich's "How We Know What Isn't So", although it's focused on cognitive biases more generally than just pseudoscience.
 
2013-03-26 06:03:53 PM

thrasherrr: special20: I am aware there are things too dangerous to study, but I strongly believe Out of Body, or Near Death Experiences, are more of an explainable phenomenon than some esoteric malarkey as people would want you and me to believe.

Some people have studied being dead in detail, since those who were dead and can talk about it are often revived in a hospital where doctors can quiz them. Here is a starter interview.

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172495667/resuscitation-experiences-an d- erasing-death


Outside of having details gathered through circumstance, the actual process of conducting a scientific study is likely too dangerous. Data is fine, but how it's derived outside of a controlled environment (inducing near death, or death and revival) there is no relevant study I am aware of - or rather - interested in at this time.
Thanks for the link I might have stumbled across myself... had I had any interest in the topic. You're cool.
 
2013-03-26 06:05:22 PM

Danger Avoid Death: Ambitwistor: As I said, you can get the same effect as acupuncture by inserting needles in random places, or not inserting needles at all. The study you link to has nothing to do with acupuncture points. Acupuncture isn't simply sticking needles in things.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 320x226]

Would like a word with you.


See, this just supports my point.  There's a whole theory behind acupuncture ... qi meridians ... Lament Configurations ...
 
2013-03-26 06:07:31 PM

ACunningPlan:

TheOmni: There's at least eight things on that diagram that I've never even heard of before. Rolfing? I'm really hoping that's not what I think it is.

Glad I'm not the only one:)  I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's cupping?

It's a TSA procedure.  Here's a training photo:

i49.tinypic.com
 
2013-03-26 06:08:08 PM

GeneralJim: meat0918: Chach: If we're going to call the Shroud of Turin "bollocks," shouldn't we first have a scientific explanation for it beyond "inconclusive?"

We do, it's called Pareidolia
Wow.  Thanks for the wonderful example of bollocks.  You'll apparently believe anything to support your beliefs.  Tell me if you see a face in the following image:
[www.shroudofturin.com image 282x298]


I see a lamp, sitting on a table, casting a faint light around it.
 
2013-03-26 06:08:27 PM

Ambitwistor: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 010/05/100530144021.htm


The citations are a playground of good information about adenosine production using deep brain stimulation.  Thanks for the links.

Acupuncture still falls under the "Sigh, ok so we haven't disproven it in the technical sense, because science doesn't work that way.  However, we can provisionally reject the claims it makes."

Read  The Believing Brain for a fun understanding of why people believe stupid shiat and won't listen to all the reasons they are full of bullocks.
 
2013-03-26 06:10:26 PM

meat0918: Even today, we are constantly amazed at the lengths people will go to in order to manufacture new hoaxes and scams.


Is congress in session again?
 
2013-03-26 06:14:20 PM

SithLord:

I once played poker with a tarot deck. I got a full house and my neighbor died.
"Last night I was playing poker with a tarot deck. I got a full house, and three people died." - Steven Wright
 
2013-03-26 06:16:25 PM

thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.


hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com
I don't believe in atheism.
 
2013-03-26 06:19:51 PM

abfalter:

You have it wrong. The truth is that BOTH Lee Harvey Oswald's acted alone (and independantly).

They did it without the apostrophe, and neither one of them was dangling from anything.


mizzbree.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-26 06:20:18 PM
GeneralJim: Tell me if you see a face in the following image:
[www.shroudofturin.com image]


Rindred:
I see a lamp, sitting on a table, casting a faint light around it.

FSM. Evidence:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-26 06:20:54 PM

GiantRex: Jubeebee: Why is detox in quackery/psuedoscience? Doesn't drug rehab show a lot of real efficacy?

The detox that this diagram includes is not the drug rehab kind (which does show a lot of real efficacy). It's the kind of detox in which people try to rid their bodies of mysterious unnamed "toxins" by dubious methods, usually by buying a blatantly bullshiat product. The product I've heard the most about is a type of pad that you stick on your feet. After you've left the pad on for a while, it turns brown and smelly, and when you remove it the damn thing looks just awful because it "sucked the toxins of of your body" through your feet. Chemical analysis of these pads shows that they are actually simple adhesive pads laced with chemicals that react with oils and bacteria commonly found on feet to cause the brown color and bad smell, which is just for show.


Or is it?

Could be doing a ton of bad.
 
2013-03-26 06:21:29 PM

Danger Avoid Death: thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.

[hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]
I don't believe in atheism.


So...you don't believe that someone can not believe in something?

HEY! You're trying to divide by zero again aren't you?!
 
2013-03-26 06:24:07 PM

Ambitwistor: willfullyobscure: Dude, it works on horses and rabbits. There are dozens of studies that show it's not a placebo.

As I said, that turns out not to be the case.  You can find studies that show an effect.  You can find many more that don't.  That's why people conduct meta-analyses:  to see what the total weight of evidence across all the studies shows.  And the meta-analyses always show that there isn't any large consistent effect distinguishable from a placebo.

The major thing we don't understand about acupuncture is how and why it works.

The major thing we don't understand is why people believe it's not a placebo, despite all evidence to the contrary.  (Well, we do understand much of that:  selective cherry-picking of studies.)


Well, here is a nice discussion of a recent metastudy that shows beyond any shadow of a doubt, that acunpuncture is more than just placebo. Amply illustrated and easy to understand. Give it a read, I think you'll see that you're beaten- its right there in black and white.
 
2013-03-26 06:25:03 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: Danger Avoid Death: thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.

[hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]
I don't believe in atheism.

So...you don't believe that someone can not believe in something?

HEY! You're trying to divide by zero again aren't you?!


I don't believe so.
 
2013-03-26 06:26:21 PM

willfullyobscure: Give it a read, I think you'll see that you're beaten- its right there in black and white.


If someone were beaten, wouldn't it be right there in black and blue?
 
2013-03-26 06:27:36 PM
crazyeddie: willfullyobscureIGNORANT: Dude, it works on horses and rabbits. There are dozens of studies that show it's not a placebo. The major thing we don't understand about acupuncture is how and why it works.

The two studies you linked were 1) a study of electroacupuncture, which is not acupunture, and 2) a study that showed that different regions seemed to block pain for different horses, for different sexes, for different amounts, when only 23 horses in total were used for the study.  Bottom line: You are looking for data to support the belief you already have instead of looking at the data to determine what conclusions you should draw from it.  From this I conclude that you are a gullible or willfully ignorant person, and no amount of evidence is going to sway you.

Here's what would convince ME that acupuncture works:  Demonstrating that it works in a controlled environment in a repeatable, scrutable, falsifiable way.  This has yet to be done, and it's been around for literally thousands of years.

Here's what would convince YOU that acupuncture works: Anything demonstrating that it could possibly work.

What would convince you that acupunture is no better than placebo?
[Seeing that conjecture supported in the research.]

There's your problem right there.

Here, let me help
 
2013-03-26 06:33:02 PM

MaxxLarge: Mythology is just religion plus time. Forever and always, 100% of the time. No gods have ever been real, or will ever be real... Period.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and hazard a guess: you're a mess of a person.
 
2013-03-26 06:34:56 PM

hinten: Fark, where everyone biatches about bad grammar but nobody can state what is actually wrong.


Seems like it changes from third person to first person to me.

Who really cares though?  Entertaining diagram, workable title.
 
2013-03-26 06:37:09 PM

willfullyobscure: Well, here is a nice discussion of a recent metastudy that shows beyond any shadow of a doubt, that acunpuncture is more than just placebo.


Uh ...

That was the very same link that I cited in my original response to you, which shows that acupuncture is NOT more than just a placebo.  The estimated effect size is so small that, as the article points out, it "it falls below the minimally accepted threshold for a clinically noticeable reduction in pain. The authors even speculated that it was so low that it could not be distinguished from bias that might result from the difficulty in truly double-blinding acupuncture studies."
 
2013-03-26 06:45:08 PM

dabbletech: Speaker2Animals: God is a concept, by which we measure our pain.

A comma is a punctuation mark, which is often overused.


I don't believe in grammar...
I don't believe in spelling...
I don't believe in punctuation...

I just believe in me
Kate Upton and me...
 
2013-03-26 06:45:28 PM

Ambitwistor: willfullyobscure: Well, here is a nice discussion of a recent metastudy that shows beyond any shadow of a doubt, that acunpuncture is more than just placebo.

Uh ...

That was the very same link that I cited in my original response to you, which shows that acupuncture is NOT more than just a placebo.  The estimated effect size is so small that, as the article points out, it "it falls below the minimally accepted threshold for a clinically noticeable reduction in pain. The authors even speculated that it was so low that it could not be distinguished from bias that might result from the difficulty in truly double-blinding acupuncture studies."


Just to be clear on the difference between "statistical significance" and "effect size":

"Statistically significant" means that an effect was detected.  "Effect size smaller than a clinically noticeable reduction in pain" means that the effect is so small that a person isn't able to tell the difference between the pain they experience with or without the acupuncture.  Which means, in practice, that it's a placebo.

Perhaps the title of the article we both linked says it all, as the author himself noted:  "Can we finally just say that acupuncture is nothing more than an elaborate placebo?  Can we?"  I don't know why you didn't read it when I first linked to it.  I guess you were so fixated on cherry-picking irrelevant studies that you only bothered to Google "meta-analysis" when I brought it up.
 
2013-03-26 06:46:06 PM

Caffandtranqs: And....what about what that Albert Einstein guy said, "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings" and "Science without religion is lame."  I wonder if the artist of the Venn diagram would tell Einstein about the bollocks he believes.


A simple appeal to authority. No doubt Einstein was a damned smart man with an incredible gift for theoretical physics. However, that doesn't give him any sort of privileged insight into the existence of God or gods, nor what any god might think or concern himself with.

Stephen Hawing is also pretty damned smart, but does that mean you should trust him to handle your taxes?
 
2013-03-26 06:46:20 PM
Q&D
i45.tinypic.com
 
2013-03-26 06:49:13 PM

Nightie don't call me Wig: meat0918: Chach: If we're going to call the Shroud of Turin "bollocks," shouldn't we first have a scientific explanation for it beyond "inconclusive?"

We do, it's called Pareidolia
 I'm not sure you know what the Shroud of Turin looks like.


How about "forgery"? Does that work for you? You know, like all those splinters of the True Cross they used to sell to pilgrims in the Holy Land.
 
2013-03-26 06:49:14 PM

miscreant: Uncle Pim: Karma is on that chart? Karma just means cause and effect. There's nothing particularly mystical about it, despite what I read on Facebook.

Most people who use it, use it in the form of "If you do something good/bad, the universe will do something good/bad to or for you in turn", which is outside of cause and effect, and is bullshiat. Lots of people who do evil shiat live very pampered lives, and lots of good people live very harsh destitute lives.


We should go with scientific laws, then.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  Thus, if you do good, it will result in the opposite.  That being evil.  That would explain why so many evil people live lives of luxery while so many good people live in the worst kind of poverty.

Hey, it's as valid as any other of those explanations.

/I'm working on producing more good in the world.
//My plan involves strippers
 
2013-03-26 06:49:33 PM

DeerNuts: Stephen Hawing is also pretty damned smart, but does that mean you should trust him to handle your taxes?


Not if he can't even spell his own name.
 
2013-03-26 06:51:32 PM

Majick Thise: I believe that prior to our birth we are not alive.

I believe that after our death we are also not alive.

I do not believe that these two instances (of being not alive) are any different. Both are the same... that is nothingness.


Prior to birth, you may not be sentient, but you were very much alive.
 
2013-03-26 06:52:12 PM

Danger Avoid Death: Agent Smiths Laugh: Danger Avoid Death: thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.

[hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]
I don't believe in atheism.

So...you don't believe that someone can not believe in something?

HEY! You're trying to divide by zero again aren't you?!

I don't believe so.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-26 06:52:46 PM

RedVentrue: Majick Thise: I believe that prior to our birth we are not alive.

I believe that after our death we are also not alive.

I do not believe that these two instances (of being not alive) are any different. Both are the same... that is nothingness.

Prior to birth, you may not be sentient, but you were very much alive.


be = have been
 
2013-03-26 06:53:54 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: Danger Avoid Death: Agent Smiths Laugh: Danger Avoid Death: thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.

[hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]
I don't believe in atheism.

So...you don't believe that someone can not believe in something?

HEY! You're trying to divide by zero again aren't you?!

I don't believe so.

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 252x200]


That's -0 * -0
 
2013-03-26 06:55:07 PM

Ambitwistor: That was the very same link that I cited in my original response to you, which shows that acupuncture is NOT more than just a placebo. The estimated effect size is so small that, as the article points out, it "it falls below the minimally accepted threshold for a clinically noticeable reduction in pain. The authors even speculated that it was so low that it could not be distinguished from bias that might result from the difficulty in truly double-blinding acupuncture studies."


They really need to be more careful where they stick those needles.
 
2013-03-26 06:58:41 PM

OgreMagi: /I'm working on producing more good in the world.
//My plan involves strippers


Newsletter?
 
2013-03-26 07:02:52 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: Bollocks.

The bullocks bollocks.


And also cupping...
 
2013-03-26 07:04:21 PM

Danger Avoid Death: thisisyourbrainonFark: Also, you should be aware that there is a whole philosophical debate as to whether atheism is a "belief" or a "lack of belief" -- or just look at every fifth Fark thread or so.

[hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]
I don't believe in atheism.


"I don't believe you, you're a liar!"

forward.com
 
2013-03-26 07:05:12 PM
Acupuncture?

Yeah, the whole "realignment of your energy paths" may be bollucks, but it can demonstrably be used to reduce or stop pain when needles are put in the right place to block nerve signals.
 
2013-03-26 07:07:25 PM

Ambitwistor: willfullyobscure: Well, here is a nice discussion of a recent metastudy that shows beyond any shadow of a doubt, that acunpuncture is more than just placebo.

Uh ...

That was the very same link that I cited in my original response to you, which shows that acupuncture is NOT more than just a placebo.  The estimated effect size is so small that, as the article points out, it "it falls below the minimally accepted threshold for a clinically noticeable reduction in pain. The authors even speculated that it was so low that it could not be distinguished from bias that might result from the difficulty in truly double-blinding acupuncture studies."


i0.kym-cdn.com

you people argue EXACTLY like climate change deniers. "look! look! I found a way to add enough things together to make black into white! look!
 
2013-03-26 07:07:39 PM

GeneralJim: ACunningPlan: TheOmni: Meat0918: Moonfisher: FloydA:

Glad I'm not the only one:)  I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's cupping?
It's a TSA procedure.  Here's a training photo:

[i49.tinypic.com image 600x416]


Well, I must confess, that's exactly the region of the anatomy to which my mind went....


Thanks chaps, I've learned something new, and something to be avoided.
 
2013-03-26 07:08:20 PM

GreenAdder: Hey, now. I believe in tarot cards. I mean obviously they exist. You can go right to the store and get a deck. Fudge, they even have them in the dollar store.

I don't believe they can tell you the future, but they totally exist and they make great props.


I believe in them. They tell the future just as well as horoscopes, or runic stones, or lots of other mystical methods.

That is to say, they don't predict a damn thing. But as a tool for self evaluation, they can be interesting. And most of the decks are quite pretty.

Then again, I also believe in discordianism and chaos. If holding an absurd belief helps me get through the day then I shall believe something absurd for the day, and put it away tomorrow.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-26 07:08:22 PM

vudukungfu: I flushed the pulls right down the john


Soooo, do tell, VKF. On whut were ya pullin boy?

/i keed i keed
 
2013-03-26 07:10:25 PM

Pert: Acupuncture?

Yeah, the whole "realignment of your energy paths" may be bollucks, but it can demonstrably be used to reduce or stop pain when needles are put in the right place to block nerve signals.


Actually, it can be shown to block pain when needles are put in random places and the client is told they are the right ones. They don't even have to be real needles, they just have to poke a little and then stick up, so metal with a bit of glue on the end.
 
2013-03-26 07:21:03 PM

SithLord: Moonfisher: Tarot also belongs in the religion circle. Our church when I was a kid told us that tarot decks were possessed by demons and using them invited the demon into you. The deck I got as a teenager never did anything exciting, so I am dissappoint.

I once played poker with a tarot deck.  I got a full house and my neighbor died.


i pulled down between 3-400 bucks a day the summer after high school fleecing tourists for tarot readings.

it helped to have a cool deck.

it really helped to be really good at cold readings.
 
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