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(Independent)   Bad news for Johns: Sweden's innovative new sex-trade laws are bad for business.. for you, not the prostitutes   (independent.co.uk) divider line 109
    More: Interesting, trade laws, Sweden, childhood sexual abuse, street prostitution, sexual slavery, jeans, prostitution, Swedish Government  
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14259 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Mar 2013 at 2:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-26 01:17:07 PM
The driver of the car, who's brought a prostituted woman to the island to have sex, is arrested on the spot. He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity.

Well that certainly doesn't resemble any form of extortion.
 
2013-03-26 01:30:00 PM
No country is perfect, but Sweden sure does seem to have its sh*t together.
 
2013-03-26 02:48:29 PM
The end of this headline makes me think of Bubble Tape commercials
 
2013-03-26 02:49:21 PM
I'm okay with this.
 
2013-03-26 02:49:33 PM

Sybarite: The driver of the car, who's brought a prostituted woman to the island to have sex, is arrested on the spot. He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity.

Well that certainly doesn't resemble any form of extortion.


That poor guy buying sex.
 
2013-03-26 02:51:04 PM
Bad news for Johns Jans: Sweden's innovative new sex-trade laws are bad for business.. for you, not the prostitutes


FTFY, Subby.
 
2013-03-26 02:51:23 PM
They should just do what we do in America... arrest everybody.
 
2013-03-26 02:52:48 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: They should just do what we do in America... arrest everybody.


And sell mugshots.
 
2013-03-26 02:53:28 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: They should just do what we do in America... arrest everybodymainly people who work on the street, mainly ignore people working via the Internet, but occasionally have an publicity-driven drive to round up and ticket as many people as possible in one night.


FTFY
 
2013-03-26 02:53:50 PM
Riiiiiiight up until a politician gets caught.
 
2013-03-26 02:54:09 PM

Sybarite: The driver of the car, who's brought a prostituted woman to the island to have sex, is arrested on the spot. He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity.

Well that certainly doesn't resemble any form of extortion.


Well, apparently they don't also get a fine for having a busted taillight. so maybe it's not extortion extortion.
 
2013-03-26 02:54:17 PM
Oh, sure.

When a woman goes to another country to have sex she's "getting her groove back" and it's "empowering".

When I do it it's "sex tourism" and "evil".
 
2013-03-26 02:54:42 PM
FTA: "The woman, who hasn't broken any law, is offered help from social services if she wants to leave prostitution. Otherwise, she's allowed to go."

Equality of the sexes, how does it work?
/Would a female transporting a male escort face similar charges?
 
2013-03-26 02:55:31 PM
FTFA: " He's young, black, and his appearance - shaved head, baggy jeans - suggests a music industry executive rather than a cop."

Stereotype much?
 
2013-03-26 02:55:34 PM

bdub77: No country is perfect, but Sweden sure does seem to have its sh*t together.


Yeah, all I can really think of to fling any poo in Sweden's direction is because of these jackoffs, but pointing out that racist minority parties exist throughout Europe is like saying, "hey, did you know water is wet?"
 
2013-03-26 02:56:45 PM
Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments
 
2013-03-26 02:57:12 PM
new sex trade laws?

when the law came into force in 1999
 
2013-03-26 02:57:26 PM
FTFA: He's young, black, and his appearance - shaved head, baggy jeans - suggests a music industry executive rather than a cop. But he's in charge of the prostitution unit of Stockholm county police

A black sheriff?
 
2013-03-26 02:57:43 PM
"...pay a fine, based on income"


John Tax?
 
2013-03-26 02:59:26 PM

BarkingUnicorn: The_Gallant_Gallstone: They should just do what we do in America... arrest everybody.

And sell mugshots.


But only the amusing ones, cause that's what counts here; our amusement. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant.
 
2013-03-26 03:01:24 PM

USCLaw2010: FTFA: He's young, black, and his appearance - shaved head, baggy jeans - suggests a music industry executive rather than a cop. But he's in charge of the prostitution unit of Stockholm county police

A black sheriff?


images.tvrage.com
 
2013-03-26 03:02:17 PM
Cool, our niece is in Malmo right now studying this with a view to selling the concept to Washington (the state).

She got to go to Nobel Awards too.

Little snot.
 
2013-03-26 03:02:52 PM
the Nobel Awards even
 
2013-03-26 03:05:41 PM
I suppose if prostitution in general is to be illegal, this is the better course to assure violence and such against sex workers is reported without fear.
 
2013-03-26 03:07:24 PM
No wonder why Julian Assange didn't want to go back to Sweden.  That country has turned into a feminazi man hating crunt.  I guess on the good side it looks like the easy life of a prostitute will come to an end.
 
2013-03-26 03:08:08 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments


Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.
 
2013-03-26 03:08:32 PM
I don't understand how people, who are apparently rational and actually care, can't seem to understand the connection between crime and prostitution is because you criminalized it and people are still willing to pay for it, not because sex work automatically attracts abused women.   You can't force women into legal sex work, because they'd have rights and the ability to defend their employment rights in court; you can only force them into illegal sex work because you stripped their rights.  Governments create the problem by trying to control something you will never successfully control: The ability of an ugly person to get their junk played with.

You wouldn't be ABLE to harm sex workers if you stopped treat sex work like a crime, just because there's some bodily fluids involved, and it has nothing to do with villainizing the guy who has more resources than social skills and available vagina.  Someone with resources will always find a way to trade them for sex, food, and security.  Making a specific type of transfer illegal whether or not someone was victimized is what GIVES you the ability to victimize.
 
2013-03-26 03:10:59 PM
Nice. Go Sweden. My Mom told me about how it was always the women who were imprisoned and persecuted during these things and it really is farked up. As opposed to drugs where the dealer is the most important, perhaps when it comes to sex the buyer is the most important. These people deserve to be shamed for what they're doing.

I have libertarian tendencies socially (and I stress socially because the free market chicago style bullshiat friedmanites should rot for what they've done to the developing world) and I've favored legalizing prostitution because it seems like there would be less underage prostitutes if it was regulated and people could go to the brothel instead of the shady corner. But when it comes to criminalizing it, generally these women have had terrible lives, so fark the shady businessmen and priests and kids buying tutes with their money. These women need money or else they generally wouldn't be doing it (or they're being extorted by pimps, have had terrible childhoods, drugs), where as the men spending the money are generally well enough off to be trolling the streets for prostitutes on a given night.
 
2013-03-26 03:11:14 PM
USCLaw2010:  A black sheriff?

Is he near?
 
2013-03-26 03:11:30 PM

The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.


Generally speaking, people do not tolerate much in the way of restrictions for their biological functions.  Reproduction is a basic human necessity. Everything you see around you today was produced out of the desire to mate, feed, and change our environment to make it easier to mate and feed.  We just happen to be better at compensating for overpopulation than most animals.
 
2013-03-26 03:11:34 PM

boinkingbill: No wonder why Julian Assange didn't want to go back to Sweden. That country has turned into a feminazi man hating crunt. I guess on the good side it looks like the easy life of a prostitute will come to an end.


Oh what most of us wouldn't give to enjoy the easy life of a prostitute...
 
2013-03-26 03:12:02 PM

Resident Muslim: "...pay a fine, based on income"


John Tax?


John Dough Tax
 
2013-03-26 03:12:33 PM
Anyone have an idea of what a Swedish Prostitute might look like?
 
2013-03-26 03:15:00 PM

Mr Guy: Generally speaking, people do not tolerate much in the way of restrictions for their biological functions.



True.

Ladies.....let this be a lesson.  If you withhold sex, your boyfriend/husband is likely to cheat on you.
 
2013-03-26 03:15:39 PM

8 inches: Anyone have an idea of what a Swedish Prostitute might look like?



A lot like a Norwegian prostitute.
 
2013-03-26 03:16:03 PM

cboppert: These women need money or else they generally wouldn't be doing it (or they're being extorted by pimps, have had terrible childhoods, drugs), where as the men spending the money are generally well enough off to be trolling the streets for prostitutes on a given night.


That sentence goes for every person in every job, ever.  Two people have resources they value less than the resource another is willing to exchange.  Why does it matter that it's a sexual experience, and money?   We all know the only REAL answer is because in general, sexual promiscuity leads to court hassles with inheritance rights, as well as the spread of disease an unwanted children.  We basically say, because you might catch a disease, and we don't want to deal with the hassle of unintended pregnancy, we're going to interfere with your basic biological functions.
 
2013-03-26 03:18:07 PM

The_Sponge: 8 inches: Anyone have an idea of what a Swedish Prostitute might look like?


A lot like a Norwegian prostitute.


and has more teeth than an English prostitute
 
2013-03-26 03:19:16 PM
So let me get this straight.  The women are allowed to sell something that it is illegal to buy.  They get the money, direct the guy to a place they know is under surveillance, stall for a few minutes, let the cops shake the guy down, then the women walk away with the money.

Is that about right?  What could possibly go wrong with this?
 
2013-03-26 03:20:03 PM
So for those of you who DNRTFA: Since 1999 the swedish cops have been randomly dropping in on hookers in the act and demanding that their clients pay the cops as well as the hooker.
It's not about justice, stopping crime or anything of the sort- it's about making sure the cops get their cut.
 
2013-03-26 03:23:26 PM

Civil_War2_Time: Resident Muslim: "...pay a fine, based on income"


John Tax?

John Dough Tax


Why would the government leaven such taxes on them?!
 
2013-03-26 03:32:19 PM
 TFA "He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity."

What if your income is 0? Court it is then...

monoski: The_Sponge: 8 inches: Anyone have an idea of what a Swedish Prostitute might look like?


A lot like a Norwegian prostitute.

and has more teeth than an English prostitute


And a whole lot better looking. Have you seen an English prostitute (I'm talking street hookers)? Just run the other way.
 
2013-03-26 03:44:36 PM
Sweden is all kinds of farked up when it comes to sex.
 
2013-03-26 03:44:52 PM

Resident Muslim: Civil_War2_Time: Resident Muslim: "...pay a fine, based on income"


John Tax?

John Dough Tax

Why would the government leaven such taxes on them?!


Agree, the idea is half baked.
 
2013-03-26 03:48:46 PM
Just another tax
 
2013-03-26 03:53:22 PM

jtown: So let me get this straight.  The women are allowed to sell something that it is illegal to buy.  They get the money, direct the guy to a place they know is under surveillance, stall for a few minutes, let the cops shake the guy down, then the women walk away with the money.

Is that about right?  What could possibly go wrong with this?


If their goal is to cut down on prostitution, not much. The john learns that the risk is his instead of the other way around like it's always been. Guys who get caught are less likely to reoffend. The client base dries up, so the woman might make some quick one-time cash from that guy, but she won't have an ongoing client.
 
2013-03-26 03:56:47 PM

Mr Guy: I don't understand how people, who are apparently rational and actually care, can't seem to understand the connection between crime and prostitution is because you criminalized it and people are still willing to pay for it, not because sex work automatically attracts abused women.


Yes, I'm certain that you don't understand it.
 
2013-03-26 03:58:19 PM

bhcompy: The end of this headline makes me think of Bubble Tape commercials


That gum was pretty good but not as awesome as Big League Chew, which my brother and I recently discovered is still sold at some Cracker Barrels.
 
2013-03-26 03:59:38 PM
I was all cool with it until I saw this FTA:

"They have no confidence in themselves. They've been left out and neglected and try to get all kinds of attention."

Whoa whoa whoa, don't go helping out the attention whores to get more attention. We already see enough of that on 'reality' TV!
 
2013-03-26 04:00:19 PM

Son of Thunder: Yes, I'm certain that you don't understand it.


However, me not understanding why people push a false correlation to excuse their own actions in persecuting others doesn't make it a good idea.
 
2013-03-26 04:14:05 PM
This is what happens when second-wave, sex-negative feminists lobby and legislate unchallenged.

Instead of solving the  real problem -- human trafficking, poverty, inherent societal views of women as objects and property, and its various iterations -- and acknowledging women as human beings and sexual actors who are free to make choices about their own bodies and occupations, declare men the enemy and seek to punish them for seeking it in whatever consensual and respectful way they're capable  also as human beings and sexual actors. All while retaining maternalist, tacit assumptions that sex is shameful and an inherent objectification and degradation of women, and that women cannot be inherently sexual actors of their own choice let alone make a conscious, mediated choice to become a sex worker without some underlying issue.

Like it or not, prostitution isn't going away -- period. Men and women (lest we get carried away in misandric fervor, male sex workers alsoexist) get horny, and will seek sex from partners of their choice, without strings attached, by paying money for it. What leads to the violent and deplorable acts associated with prostitution, is the perceived immorality, illegality, and shame of that act on the part of both parties. It's not merely a legal problem, it's a  social one. So, let's stop thinking and claiming sex is shameful, crack down on the  actually violent, degrading, and deplorable acts associated with prostitution instead of prostitution itself, and let adults engage in consensual sex -- regardless of the conditions of that consent -- without shame.
 
2013-03-26 04:14:29 PM
"They park up there," says the detective in the front passenger seat, pointing to a car park at the top of the hill. "We wait a few minutes and then we leap out, run up the hill and pull open the doors."

Assuming they don't have concealed carry over there... or there would be an awful lot of headless cops driving around crashing into all sorts of shiat...

/or, not driving at all, in the real world - and no, I didn't feel like looking up their weapons' laws
 
2013-03-26 04:16:30 PM

rkiller1: FTA: "The woman, who hasn't broken any law, is offered help from social services if she wants to leave prostitution. Otherwise, she's allowed to go."

Equality of the sexes, how does it work?
/Would a female transporting a male escort face similar charges?


To a first approximation, that never happens - male hoes have male clients. One assumes they make the same offer to male prostitutes but TFA doesn't say.
 
2013-03-26 04:28:26 PM

bdub77: Resident Muslim: Civil_War2_Time: Resident Muslim: "...pay a fine, based on income"


John Tax?

John Dough Tax

Why would the government leaven such taxes on them?!

Agree, the idea is half baked.


Such derailment of a thread.

However the puns are on a roll.
 
2013-03-26 04:36:13 PM

TheMega: Assuming they don't have concealed carry over there...


To save yourself some time, just have a look at this map:

upload.wikimedia.org

See all those places in white? Pretty much none of them has the saturation of guns the US has and the people that live in them have little to no fear of being shot by criminals, the police and definitely not by other citizens.

Your country has an obsession with guns and I can tell you that we people out here living in the white are absolutely flabbergasted by and terrified of it.
 
2013-03-26 04:36:36 PM
illannoyin: Oh, sure.
When a woman goes to another country to have sex she's "getting her groove back" and it's "empowering".
When I do it it's "sex tourism" and "evil".


Especially if you go to Thailand
 
2013-03-26 04:44:08 PM

jtown: So let me get this straight.  The women are allowed to sell something that it is illegal to buy.  They get the money, direct the guy to a place they know is under surveillance, stall for a few minutes, let the cops shake the guy down, then the women walk away with the money.


I read the article, while it doesn't say that's what happens, it does say the cops know /exactly/ where the John's end up.

I have no problem with not prosecuting women engaged in prostitution, I certainly don't object to offering them services. However why go after the men? What about male / male or female / female prostitution? Their law is blatantly sexist and fails to deal with a complex world. If the parties are consenting adults than I can't see the harm (STD checks and OSHA style safety precautions should be required). As for those who do sex trafficking, that isn't consensual and they deserve to be hung at dawn.
 
2013-03-26 04:44:25 PM

weapon13: TFA "He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity."

What if your income is 0? Court it is then...


Most people with an income of zero are going to be unable to conduct an exchange of cash for sex in the first place.  Much the same way that a drunk person who does not have a car is unlikely to be charged with DUI.

END COMMUNICATION
 
2013-03-26 04:54:00 PM

cboppert: where as the men spending the money are generally well enough off to be trolling the streets for prostitutes on a given night.


Honestly I suspect the men "trolling the streets" for hookers aren't all that well off.  I know one guy who did use prostitutes, and he was pretty damn poor.  (In his 30's and living in a college apartment with 4 other people because it was all he could afford.)

There's kind of a heirarchy, and street walkers are the cheap ones.  Anyone who is "well off" is probably looking at escort services, or at _least_ craigslist.
 
2013-03-26 04:54:53 PM

PIP_the_TROLL: See all those places in white? Pretty much none of them has the saturation of guns the US has and the people that live in them have little to no fear of being shot by criminals, the police and definitely not by other citizens.

Your country has an obsession with guns and I can tell you that we people out here living in the white are absolutely flabbergasted by and terrified of it.


Let us not forget the ubiquitous American AK-47, found in every Third World nation on the planet. No, the real threat is once again... honest citizens.
 
2013-03-26 04:57:38 PM
This anti-prostitution bullsh*t is bullsh*t! Making it legal not only cuts pimps out of the equation, but it rakes in the tax dollars as well.

Every time some prude in Nevada proposes getting rid of the legal brothels there, all you have to do is to ask them "what would you do to replace the lost tax revenue?" and that shuts them up real quick.

Sadly, our elected officials are too chickensh*t to stand up to mullahs of the Religious-Political Complex and propose making brothels legal nationwide.

And our recession continues..................
 
2013-03-26 04:59:18 PM

onyxruby: jtown: So let me get this straight.  The women are allowed to sell something that it is illegal to buy.  They get the money, direct the guy to a place they know is under surveillance, stall for a few minutes, let the cops shake the guy down, then the women walk away with the money.

I read the article, while it doesn't say that's what happens, it does say the cops know /exactly/ where the John's end up.

I have no problem with not prosecuting women engaged in prostitution, I certainly don't object to offering them services. However why go after the men? What about male / male or female / female prostitution? Their law is blatantly sexist and fails to deal with a complex world. If the parties are consenting adults than I can't see the harm (STD checks and OSHA style safety precautions should be required). As for those who do sex trafficking, that isn't consensual and they deserve to be hung at dawn.


Here in Canada, prostitution isn't, per se, illegal.  That is, it's perfectly OK for two parties to exchange cash or other considerations for sex.

But *solicitation for prostitution* IS illegal.  So streetwalkers get busted all the time.  But "escort services" generally don't get busted, since any cash-for-sex that may be going on is "hidden", since you're just paying the girl to escort you to your important business lunch meeting, or something.  Yeah, that's the ticket.

Personally, I think a consenting adult selling sexual services for a decent price, who isn't doing so under coercion of any kind, and who is of age, etc, should be free to do so.  I can pay for therapeutic massage, or for some chiroquacker to crack my back, or someone to clean my teeth, or clip my toenails, or any one of a number of "body oriented" services.  Why not sex?
 
2013-03-26 04:59:38 PM

HAMMERTOE: PIP_the_TROLL: See all those places in white? Pretty much none of them has the saturation of guns the US has and the people that live in them have little to no fear of being shot by criminals, the police and definitely not by other citizens.

Your country has an obsession with guns and I can tell you that we people out here living in the white are absolutely flabbergasted by and terrified of it.

Let us not forget the ubiquitous American AK-47, found in every Third World nation on the planet. No, the real threat is once again... honest citizens.


if by American you mean Russian, why yes then the AK-47 is Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ak47
 
2013-03-26 05:00:15 PM

boinkingbill: No wonder why Julian Assange didn't want to go back to Sweden.  That country has turned into a feminazi man hating crunt.  I guess on the good side it looks like the easy life of a prostitute will come to an end.


Fact: The Moral Majority was allied in the 80's with feminists to try to get porn outlawed in the US. Strange bedfellows I'm sure, but their hate for freedom united them.
 
2013-03-26 05:04:59 PM

trapped-in-CH: if by American you mean Russian, why yes then the AK-47 is Russian.


I think he was taking a dig at the previous poster's posturing as global spokesperson against the American fixation with firearms.
 
2013-03-26 05:09:46 PM
Wow, that's eFFing harsh! Hey, what's the extradition laws with Sweden? If they branch out a bit, they could start nabbing anyone who buys something at Ikea. Those people are paying and getting Farked every single time!
 
2013-03-26 05:14:20 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: trapped-in-CH: if by American you mean Russian, why yes then the AK-47 is Russian.

I think he was taking a dig at the previous poster's posturing as global spokesperson against the American fixation with firearms.


Not a spokesperson, just a concerned person living living on the same planet what sometimes feels like a crazy neighbor.

Sure, AK-47s are found all over the place - including large amounts of them in the US. So presumably they were including the US in that list of third-world countries.

Even in those places where you can buy them at street markets for a day's wage, the average person living there still isn't walking around with them nor has any expectation of doing so. And such places are pretty uncommon when compared to all the countries of the world.

So I stand by the original position. Even in places you expect large amounts of the population to be under arms, there isn't such civilian access to nor integration of guns into their daily lives.
 
2013-03-26 05:14:21 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: trapped-in-CH: if by American you mean Russian, why yes then the AK-47 is Russian.

I think he was taking a dig at the previous poster's posturing as global spokesperson against the American fixation with firearms.


Oh.  thanks.  My bad.  teach me for not reading the whole thread.
 
2013-03-26 05:32:10 PM

Mr Guy: I don't understand how people, who are apparently rational and actually care, can't seem to understand the connection between crime and prostitution is because you criminalized it and people are still willing to pay for it, not because sex work automatically attracts abused women.   You can't force women into legal sex work, because they'd have rights and the ability to defend their employment rights in court; you can only force them into illegal sex work because you stripped their rights.  Governments create the problem by trying to control something you will never successfully control: The ability of an ugly person to get their junk played with.

You wouldn't be ABLE to harm sex workers if you stopped treat sex work like a crime, just because there's some bodily fluids involved, and it has nothing to do with villainizing the guy who has more resources than social skills and available vagina.  Someone with resources will always find a way to trade them for sex, food, and security.  Making a specific type of transfer illegal whether or not someone was victimized is what GIVES you the ability to victimize.


why do you hate authorities creating reasons to continue their existence?
 
2013-03-26 05:37:15 PM
Prostitution laws are discriminatory against people who can't get laid.

Join my PAC, of which I am president
 
2013-03-26 05:45:05 PM
You know, I think I can without contradiction be in a favor of both Nevada-style brothels and this Swedish technique for dealing with pimped-out prostitutes. Prostitution is like picking cotton. Sometimes it's a legitimate career choice, sometimes it's forced upon the powerless. We need to deal with both cases fairly.
 
2013-03-26 05:45:57 PM
FTFA:  "A small number of women work on the streets of Malmö and Gothenburg but the Swedish figures are nothing like those for Denmark, where prostitution has been decriminalised. Denmark has just over half the population of Sweden but one study suggested there were more than 1,400 women selling sex on Danish streets."

And I'll bet that half or more of the Danish hookers' clients are Swedes.
 
2013-03-26 05:48:18 PM

thisiszombocom: Prostitution laws are discriminatory against people who can't get laid.

Join my PAC, of which I am president



I LOL'd.
 
2013-03-26 05:50:05 PM
Anyone else read that headline in Riddick's voice? O_o
 
2013-03-26 05:58:33 PM
I dont know why they dont have a system set up like edmonton. Put up big signs that say this community does not tolerate prostitution with an 800 number to rat out everyone.

incidently you shouldnt feed the prostitutes after midnight.
and keep your arms inside the car at all times. Theyve been known to bite
 
2013-03-26 06:16:31 PM

The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.


(gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.
 
2013-03-26 06:18:50 PM

patchvonbraun: Personally, I think a consenting adult selling sexual services for a decent price, who isn't doing so under coercion of any kind, and who is of age, etc, should be free to do so. I can pay for therapeutic massage, or for some chiroquacker to crack my back, or someone to clean my teeth, or clip my toenails, or any one of a number of "body oriented" services. Why not sex?


I would be completely okay with this as well.

Problem is, a lot of the prostitutes out there have been coerced, trafficked or otherwise abused into it. Many are underage or foreign, have been lied to about what rights they have and chances to escape. Others tried a drug, got addicted and fell in with a pimp, or were given drugs by a pimp until addicted.

The difference between a fully-aware, safe, protected and consenting professional who conducts a medically and emotionally safe sex-work business and most prostitutes out there is the difference between Miss Mona from 'Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,' a small-business-owner, and Fantine from 'Les Miserables,' who is about the most destroyed human being in the history of musical theater. (My reference pool is a little fabulous today, sorry.)

We definitely need legal, safe and protected prostitution, if only to drive the pimps and traffickers out of the business.
 
2013-03-26 06:21:01 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.

(gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.


Yet, I lived for 32 years without sex...

/sigh
//agrees with you more than Agent Smiths Laugh
///finds your logic spurious, at best
 
2013-03-26 06:48:50 PM
Wow, I'm glad I'm in a European country with a) better beer than Sweden b) better laws on prostitution than Sweden - it's legal for the John or the... Jane? It's not illegal. c) waaay better drug laws - not only are they incredibly oppressive in Sweden, here is more liberal than than Netherlands. Anything and everything in "small amounts" is legal

But go ahead and move to Sweden to hand over most of your paycheck and pay $11usd for crappy beer.
 
2013-03-26 06:56:10 PM

Telos: Agent Smiths Laugh: The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.

(gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.

Yet, I lived for 32 years without sex...

/sigh
//agrees with you more than Agent Smiths Laugh
///finds your logic spurious, at best


You agree with me more than you agree with me?
 
2013-03-26 07:24:18 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: (gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.



That wasn't the point.  Obviously, the species can't survive without it.  (That's barring the current state of medical advances, obviously.)

What I meant is that it isn't a "need" in the sense regarding the survival of an individual.  Otherwise, there would be a lot of fat virgins living in their mothers' basements.
 
2013-03-26 07:26:06 PM

Cajnik: Wow, I'm glad I'm in a European country with a) better beer than Sweden b) better laws on prostitution than Sweden - it's legal for the John or the... Jane? It's not illegal. c) waaay better drug laws - not only are they incredibly oppressive in Sweden, here is more liberal than than Netherlands. Anything and everything in "small amounts" is legal

But go ahead and move to Sweden to hand over most of your paycheck and pay $11usd for crappy beer.



Ha!

I knew you were in the Czech Republic before I even checked your profile.

/Will be there in September.
//Meet up for a beer?
 
2013-03-26 07:30:23 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments


No, it's a basic human desire. Big difference.
 
2013-03-26 07:40:53 PM
Agent Smiths Laugh:

You agree with me more than you agree with me?


Yes.
 
2013-03-26 07:51:11 PM

kendelrio: FTFA: " He's young, black, and his appearance - shaved head, baggy jeans - suggests a music industry executive rather than a cop."

Stereotype much?


Came here for this.
 
2013-03-26 07:52:26 PM

The_Sponge: Agent Smiths Laugh: (gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.


That wasn't the point.  Obviously, the species can't survive without it.  (That's barring the current state of medical advances, obviously.)

What I meant is that it isn't a "need" in the sense regarding the survival of an individual.  Otherwise, there would be a lot of fat virgins living in their mothers' basements.


Ah, see now we get to the meat of the matter. Is sex as imperative a need to the individual as the need to consume, respire, and defecate? No. Is it still a biological imperative built into the individual that motivates them to fulfill it as much as possible? Yes. Sex is necessary for any sexually reproducing species to survive, including us. Need is a synonym of necessity. Thus sex is a need of the human being as it is necessary for the species to survive.

Where I think you get confused is the human capacity to consciously suppress natural instincts and needs when it desires to. That complicates our view of the biological imperative. Your body, my body, anybody's body is still driving us, on an instinctual, biological level to propagate our genes. However, we have this unique (so far as we know) mind that is able to suppress that need at will. The body still hasn't stopped wanting to reproduce, but we've chosen (for any given moment) to ignore it. That can create the impression that sex is a want. Something we seek when we choose to. But that's putting the cart before the horse. The biological imperative was there long before the capacity or desire to suppress it (or the conscious choice to indulge it) was.

What's really happening when you say "Right now I want sex" is that your body is saying "I need sex to perpetuate my genes, like I'm always saying" and you've chosen to listen to that biological imperative...this time.
 
2013-03-26 07:53:42 PM

Telos: Agent Smiths Laugh:

You agree with me more than you agree with me?


Yes.


I...well...okay.

I'm glad I can be more agreeable than myself. I think.
 
2013-03-26 08:30:09 PM
If you need to resort to prostitution in Sweden, there is something wrong with you.
 
2013-03-26 08:39:59 PM

that bosnian sniper: Men and women (lest we get carried away in misandric fervor, male sex workers alsoexist) get horny, and will seek sex from partners of their choice, without strings attached, by paying money for it.


I got the feeling from that article that if the pontificating cop ever saw that, his eyes would go white and he'd just arrest both. It sure sounds like they only patrol the straight red light district(s), not the gay one(s).

Anyway, streetwalking should be illegal. Yeah, it'll still happen from time to time, because crackhos circling the drain don't have many other options, but streetwalking is needlessly dangerous and demeaning compared to a brothel or escorting. Stop closing down the brothels, and sex work will get cleaned up immensely, as Amsterdam and rural Nevada proved.

/Keep investigating them, of course. Routine checks on immigration status, STD screening, etc.
//Wouldn't care to be that OSHA guy.
 
2013-03-26 08:59:07 PM
illannoyin:

When a woman goes to another country to have sex she's "getting her groove back" and it's "empowering" HIV, apparently.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/11/26/us-sextourism-idUSN2638979 72 0071126
 
2013-03-26 09:06:28 PM

FlyPanAm: Sybarite: The driver of the car, who's brought a prostituted woman to the island to have sex, is arrested on the spot. He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity.

Well that certainly doesn't resemble any form of extortion.

That poor guy buying sex.


And if he wasn't buying sex? It seems to me that at least some kind of private trial should take place with the jury of peers sworn to secrecy. If found guilty, your name goes public.
 
2013-03-26 09:11:59 PM

Spaced Lion: If you need to resort to prostitution in Sweden, there is something wrong with you.


Sweden isn't immune to daddy issues.
 
2013-03-26 09:17:24 PM
You could always just get a license to produce porno films and hire "actresses" to have sex with you on camera. That's perfectly ok apparently.....
 
2013-03-26 09:31:39 PM

PIP_the_TROLL: TheMega: Assuming they don't have concealed carry over there...

To save yourself some time, just have a look at this map:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 306x305]

See all those places in white? Pretty much none of them has the saturation of guns the US has and the people that live in them have little to no fear of being shot by criminals, the police and definitely not by other citizens.

Your country has an obsession with guns and I can tell you that we people out here living in the white are absolutely flabbergasted by and terrified of it.


GOOD! jpg.
 
2013-03-26 09:36:55 PM

that bosnian sniper: This is what happens when second-wave, sex-negative feminists lobby and legislate unchallenged.

Instead of solving the  real problem -- human trafficking, poverty, inherent societal views of women as objects and property, and its various iterations -- and acknowledging women as human beings and sexual actors who are free to make choices about their own bodies and occupations, declare men the enemy and seek to punish them for seeking it in whatever consensual and respectful way they're capable  also as human beings and sexual actors. All while retaining maternalist, tacit assumptions that sex is shameful and an inherent objectification and degradation of women, and that women cannot be inherently sexual actors of their own choice let alone make a conscious, mediated choice to become a sex worker without some underlying issue.

Like it or not, prostitution isn't going away -- period. Men and women (lest we get carried away in misandric fervor, male sex workers alsoexist) get horny, and will seek sex from partners of their choice, without strings attached, by paying money for it. What leads to the violent and deplorable acts associated with prostitution, is the perceived immorality, illegality, and shame of that act on the part of both parties. It's not merely a legal problem, it's a  social one. So, let's stop thinking and claiming sex is shameful, crack down on the  actually violent, degrading, and deplorable acts associated with prostitution instead of prostitution itself, and let adults engage in consensual sex -- regardless of the conditions of that consent -- without shame.


We'll have no logic here.
 
2013-03-26 09:49:28 PM

illannoyin: Oh, sure.

When a woman goes to another country to have sex she's "getting her groove back" and it's "empowering".

When I do it it's "sex tourism" and "evil".


Is this like a meme or something? I know I've seen this word-for-word in other Fark threads.
 
2013-03-26 09:57:02 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?



It's funny you say that, because I argued in another Fark thread some weeks back that a lot of the problems women have with men (including but not limited to rape) comes from the idea that men think they NEED sex the same way people need food and drink to live.  And once you accept, on any level, that you really NEED sex, then you start to think that somebody, somewhere, owes you sex.  And that idea, in turn, affects how men think of women and treat them.

Of course, when I said that, people told me that I was being ridiculous, because no man actually believes that he NEEDS sex.

Then, weeks later, you come along.
 
2013-03-26 09:57:03 PM

that bosnian sniper: This is what happens when second-wave, sex-negative feminists lobby and legislate unchallenged. Instead of solving the  real problem -- human trafficking, poverty, inherent societal views of women as objects and property, and its various iterations


Oh? How is Sweden going to fix those problems all over the world? It can't. What it CAN do is place the burden of risk in prostitution on the john, as it rightly should be. The john pays up or gets sent to court, the woman gets support in getting out of prostitution (and for forced sex workers, this is a very big deal), and the neighborhoods get a handle on the street trade.

Even if Sweden fixes all those aforementioned issues in country (and it has made big steps to do so), women from abroad will still be brought over. that's ok. they're not trying to eradicate the sex trade, just provide a managing risk factor for those who would partake of it.

I do agree that there should be a legalized system for prostitution. however, without a system like this that legalized system would never be able to compete against the many czech/korean/thai sex workers being coerced into selling their bodies for pittances.
 
2013-03-26 10:01:08 PM
boinkingbill: No wonder why Julian Assange didn't want to go back to Sweden. That country has turned into a feminazi man hating crunt.

I guess the idea of being forced to treat women like human beings must REALLY piss you off.
 
2013-03-26 10:40:18 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: rkiller1: FTA: "The woman, who hasn't broken any law, is offered help from social services if she wants to leave prostitution. Otherwise, she's allowed to go."

Equality of the sexes, how does it work?
/Would a female transporting a male escort face similar charges?

To a first approximation, that never happens - male hoes have male clients. One assumes they make the same offer to male prostitutes but TFA doesn't say.


It's a little like how in rape threads someone always points out that men get raped, too, and some women commit rape.  Yes, that's true, not all rapists are male, nor are all rape victims female.  But at the same time, while not all rapists are male, the vast majority are. Any policy designed to address the problem needs to handle both reality (that there are female johns, and female rapists, but that they're the minority by far).
 
2013-03-26 10:44:25 PM
I can recall a pro-legalisation ad put out by the group, COYOTE (a sex-trade workers organisation), showing a shot from the '20's of booze cases being broken up and the statement "Prohibition had no effect on people drinking", then below it, a rear-view shot of a curvaceous young lady with garter belt, stockings, and little else, and below that "What makes you think it stands a chance against this?"
 
2013-03-26 10:52:58 PM

ciberido: It's a little like how in rape threads someone always points out that men get raped, too, and some women commit rape. Yes, that's true, not all rapists are male, nor are all rape victims female. But at the same time, while not all rapists are male, the vast majority are. Any policy designed to address the problem needs to handle both reality (that there are female johns, and female rapists, but that they're the minority by far).


So we face "reality" and pass laws to address the majority of the problem, but similar behavior in minorities are enforced differently?  Do I have that correct?  Your phrase "...handle both.." had a single descendent, so perhaps you handn't finished your thought?
 
2013-03-26 11:24:32 PM

Telos: Agent Smiths Laugh: The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.

(gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.

Yet, I lived for 32 years without sex...

/sigh
//agrees with you more than Agent Smiths Laugh
///finds your logic spurious, at best


I think that as a *species*, we undeniably "need" sex.  But for any given individual the "need" for sex is less survival-critical than, let's say air, or food, or water.

But at the same time, dismissing human sex drive as a kind of "frill" or "luxury" ignores a significant aspect of both our biology, and the basic drives that make us human, and not, let's say, cucumbers.
Human females come into oestrus every 28 days or so,for several days--which means your average human male has to be ready to go pretty-much all the time.  On average, there's an awful lot of horny out there, and it's not something that modern civilization just "made up".

/hasn't had any in over a year
//too broke for hookers
///too shy for singles bars
 
2013-03-27 01:31:19 AM

patchvonbraun: I think that as a *species*, we undeniably "need" sex. But for any given individual the "need" for sex is less survival-critical than, let's say air, or food, or water.

But at the same time, dismissing human sex drive as a kind of "frill" or "luxury" ignores a significant aspect of both our biology, and the basic drives that make us human, and not, let's say, cucumbers.
Human females come into oestrus every 28 days or so,for several days--which means your average human male has to be ready to go pretty-much all the time. On average, there's an awful lot of horny out there, and it's not something that modern civilization just "made up".

/hasn't had any in over a year
//too broke for hookers
///too shy for singles bars


I say this as the cool female friend and/or wingwoman of more lonely guys than you can imagine: Cat shelters.

Seriously.

I have never known a male cat-shelter volunteer who didn't get laid or into a sexual relationship within six months. When women are lonely, awkward and longing for companionship, they go to the cat shelter, just as how in the times before geek-chic, similarly situated men headed to the comic-book store. If you have basic manners, kindness, a willingness to work on a relationship and can cultivate a genuine fondness for felines, I all but guarantee that several potential girlfriends are waiting at your nearest Home For Wayward Tabbies.

Some cat ladies are less attractive, some are in that 'pretty but overweight' category and some are smokingly hot, though the ratios of physical attractiveness to social skills usually ping at the maximums, so the selection is along the lines of Melissa McCarthy and Parker from 'Leverage,' with various points between the two extremes. On average, you're looking at size-16 otaku girls with glasses and shyness; but with a little effort and the boost to self-esteem that comes of having a guy who finds them date-able and is willing to share healthy behaviors, they often slim down, seek makeovers and become significantly prettier with time, just as how most guys who get into healthy relationships lose weight, exercise more and are better fed. I was a size-20 with anxiety issues and bad skin before my now-husband managed to upgrade me to a size-12 with self-confidence and a clear complexion (you take better care of yourself when you're happy,) just as I helped him overcome social awkwardness, build lean muscle (we work out together,) and learn to dress better.

It's like how if you want a beater car you can tune up while learning car-repair skills, you go to Craigslist. If you want a fixer-upper girlfriend who will help you learn to be a better person and a good life partner, go to the cat shelter.

Don't try the dog shelter, though. That's positively full of hot lesbians and will only make you depressed.
 
2013-03-27 01:59:40 AM

rkiller1: So we face "reality" and pass laws to address the majority of the problem, but similar behavior in minorities are enforced differently?  Do I have that correct?  Your phrase "...handle both.." had a single descendent, so perhaps you handn't finished your thought?


Mostly, I'm saying avoid false equivalences.
 
2013-03-27 02:02:49 AM

SpiderQueenDemon: On average, you're looking at size-16 otaku girls with glasses and shyness; but with a little effort and the boost to self-esteem that comes of having a guy who finds them date-able and is willing to share healthy behaviors, they often slim down, seek makeovers and become significantly prettier with time, just as how most guys who get into healthy relationships lose weight, exercise more and are better fed.


Kudos to you and your man on getting healthier, but your situation does not necessarily translate to everyone else. The general assumption is people let themselves go after getting into a relationship. Hell, it's a cliche at this point. So for most people, grabbing a fat girl or guy (unless you're into that), with the expectation that you will magically motivate them to lose weight, is only going to end in flabby tears.

The cat shelter might be good advice. Going for the fat person (unless that's what you want) is bad advice.
 
2013-03-27 03:28:26 AM

Soupysales: Kudos to you and your man on getting healthier, but your situation does not necessarily translate to everyone else. The general assumption is people let themselves go after getting into a relationship. Hell, it's a cliche at this point. So for most people, grabbing a fat girl or guy (unless you're into that), with the expectation that you will magically motivate them to lose weight, is only going to end in flabby tears.

The cat shelter might be good advice. Going for the fat person (unless that's what you want) is bad advice.


This is true. There are also a lot of thinner girls who hang out at cat shelters, luckily, though it's been my experience that they're either A. naturally thin and therefore naturally a bit flat-chested, or B. thin due to other issues that they're self-medicating with kitty time. Anyone you meet at such a self-esteem-building, altruistic establishment, though, you'll definitely want to check over to determine how fixable whatever issues they come with are. (Everyone comes with issues. Accept this now.) You don't get as many attention-whores, high-maintenance types or substance abusers down the cat shelter as you do at, say, a singles bar, but there are often insecurity, abandonment or affection-seeking issues, which in severe cases can be just as bad.

Evaluate every person with whom you're considering a relationship in terms of 'how can they improve me, and how can I improve them? What benefits can we bring each other?' Don't get into a relationship expecting to change someone unless you're also demanding that they change you in some way, and be prepared to be surprised by what the changes and personal growth may be. Some couples are very good for each other and help one another grow, others just enable each other's worst tendencies and that's where you get some 'Days of Wine and Roses' or 'Sid & Nancy' type mess.

Don't seek relationships just because you're lonely, either. Seek the person who makes you want to be a better person, and you'll be pleasantly surprised at how soon everything else follows.

Soup kitchens, political rallies for a cause with which one agrees, secondhand bookstores and Habitat for Humanity builds are also good places to locate potential mates. The girls you'll meet at H-f-H events won't be as obnoxious with the 'honey do' lists as some women, though they'll likely spend as much money on tools as you do, and you'll know instantly that soup-kitchen volunteers like to cook. As for secondhand bookstores, that's kind of a female-dominated market, so you'll be the one being looked over there. Pick up anything Jane Austen and look contemplative, the line of women will form quickly.
 
2013-03-27 10:51:04 AM

Lord Zardoz: weapon13: TFA "He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity."

What if your income is 0? Court it is then...

Most people with an income of zero are going to be unable to conduct an exchange of cash for sex in the first place.  Much the same way that a drunk person who does not have a car is unlikely to be charged with DUI.

END COMMUNICATION


Income is 0 and I've just spent my last 20 on the hooker... whatcha gonna do now copper?
 
2013-03-27 04:05:30 PM

duenor: Oh? How is Sweden going to fix those problems all over the world? It can't. What it CAN do is place the burden of risk in prostitution on the john, as it rightly should be. The john pays up or gets sent to court, the woman gets support in getting out of prostitution (and for forced sex workers, this is a very big deal), and the neighborhoods get a handle on the street trade.

Even if Sweden fixes all those aforementioned issues in country (and it has made big steps to do so), women from abroad will still be brought over. that's ok. they're not trying to eradicate the sex trade, just provide a managing risk factor for those who would partake of it.

I do agree that there should be a legalized system for prostitution. however, without a system like this that legalized system would never be able to compete against the many czech/korean/thai sex workers being coerced into selling their bodies for pittances.


Of course, not that Sweden's prostitution law does anything to halt or stem human sex trafficking as it is: the article itself notes the biggest demographic shift in prostitution  from predominantly "local" women  to trafficked women (namely, because local women are either not participating, or I would suspect regardless of the police's word have found ways to elude the law). And, with a secondary effect traffickers are merely taking their business elsewhere, which admittedly is not Sweden's fault; of course, trafficked women not sent to Sweden in the first place are entirely outside the boundaries of the Swedish government to help regardless of letter, spirit, intent, or means of the law.

And yes, Sweden  is trying to eliminate the sex trade. As the article itself presents, "In the 1990s, the Swedish government accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality and a form of violence against women."What more can be said of it?Taboos against sex (which this position does nothing to eliminate), and the resulting criminalization, are what lead to exploitation and not any intrinsic quality of the act (even the "objectification" is an extrinsic quality wrought by the assertion sex is a somehow demeaning act).

The market for sex yet exists, will always exist, and a legal and regulated market is safer, less exploitative and violent, and more rational than a criminal market. See, any other human vice that has gone through cycles of legalization and prohibition.

Oh, and for whomever sponsored me which I suspect is because of this thread, thanks.
 
2013-03-27 05:19:19 PM

that bosnian sniper: accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality


The hilarious part being that prostitution was originally outlawed in Victorian England in order to shut down an avenue women had for independence...
 
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