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(Independent)   Bad news for Johns: Sweden's innovative new sex-trade laws are bad for business.. for you, not the prostitutes   (independent.co.uk) divider line 109
    More: Interesting, trade laws, Sweden, childhood sexual abuse, street prostitution, sexual slavery, jeans, prostitution, Swedish Government  
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14273 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Mar 2013 at 2:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-26 10:52:58 PM

ciberido: It's a little like how in rape threads someone always points out that men get raped, too, and some women commit rape. Yes, that's true, not all rapists are male, nor are all rape victims female. But at the same time, while not all rapists are male, the vast majority are. Any policy designed to address the problem needs to handle both reality (that there are female johns, and female rapists, but that they're the minority by far).


So we face "reality" and pass laws to address the majority of the problem, but similar behavior in minorities are enforced differently?  Do I have that correct?  Your phrase "...handle both.." had a single descendent, so perhaps you handn't finished your thought?
 
2013-03-26 11:24:32 PM

Telos: Agent Smiths Laugh: The_Sponge: tallguywithglasseson: Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly.

It's not? It's a basic human need. Who should we be prohibiting from having sex and why?

//arguing "buying sex is not a human right" might have some stronger arguments

Wait....what?

It's a want, not a need.

/Although I do get very cranky during slumps.

(gasp) You're right! Our species can survive just fine without sex! We should just do away with the whole thing, since we don't need it anyway.

I mean, the fact that every sexually reproducing organize on the planet has a built in sex drive is just a coincidence right? RIGHT?

I'm sure they'd be fine without it too.

Yet, I lived for 32 years without sex...

/sigh
//agrees with you more than Agent Smiths Laugh
///finds your logic spurious, at best


I think that as a *species*, we undeniably "need" sex.  But for any given individual the "need" for sex is less survival-critical than, let's say air, or food, or water.

But at the same time, dismissing human sex drive as a kind of "frill" or "luxury" ignores a significant aspect of both our biology, and the basic drives that make us human, and not, let's say, cucumbers.
Human females come into oestrus every 28 days or so,for several days--which means your average human male has to be ready to go pretty-much all the time.  On average, there's an awful lot of horny out there, and it's not something that modern civilization just "made up".

/hasn't had any in over a year
//too broke for hookers
///too shy for singles bars
 
2013-03-27 01:31:19 AM

patchvonbraun: I think that as a *species*, we undeniably "need" sex. But for any given individual the "need" for sex is less survival-critical than, let's say air, or food, or water.

But at the same time, dismissing human sex drive as a kind of "frill" or "luxury" ignores a significant aspect of both our biology, and the basic drives that make us human, and not, let's say, cucumbers.
Human females come into oestrus every 28 days or so,for several days--which means your average human male has to be ready to go pretty-much all the time. On average, there's an awful lot of horny out there, and it's not something that modern civilization just "made up".

/hasn't had any in over a year
//too broke for hookers
///too shy for singles bars


I say this as the cool female friend and/or wingwoman of more lonely guys than you can imagine: Cat shelters.

Seriously.

I have never known a male cat-shelter volunteer who didn't get laid or into a sexual relationship within six months. When women are lonely, awkward and longing for companionship, they go to the cat shelter, just as how in the times before geek-chic, similarly situated men headed to the comic-book store. If you have basic manners, kindness, a willingness to work on a relationship and can cultivate a genuine fondness for felines, I all but guarantee that several potential girlfriends are waiting at your nearest Home For Wayward Tabbies.

Some cat ladies are less attractive, some are in that 'pretty but overweight' category and some are smokingly hot, though the ratios of physical attractiveness to social skills usually ping at the maximums, so the selection is along the lines of Melissa McCarthy and Parker from 'Leverage,' with various points between the two extremes. On average, you're looking at size-16 otaku girls with glasses and shyness; but with a little effort and the boost to self-esteem that comes of having a guy who finds them date-able and is willing to share healthy behaviors, they often slim down, seek makeovers and become significantly prettier with time, just as how most guys who get into healthy relationships lose weight, exercise more and are better fed. I was a size-20 with anxiety issues and bad skin before my now-husband managed to upgrade me to a size-12 with self-confidence and a clear complexion (you take better care of yourself when you're happy,) just as I helped him overcome social awkwardness, build lean muscle (we work out together,) and learn to dress better.

It's like how if you want a beater car you can tune up while learning car-repair skills, you go to Craigslist. If you want a fixer-upper girlfriend who will help you learn to be a better person and a good life partner, go to the cat shelter.

Don't try the dog shelter, though. That's positively full of hot lesbians and will only make you depressed.
 
2013-03-27 01:59:40 AM

rkiller1: So we face "reality" and pass laws to address the majority of the problem, but similar behavior in minorities are enforced differently?  Do I have that correct?  Your phrase "...handle both.." had a single descendent, so perhaps you handn't finished your thought?


Mostly, I'm saying avoid false equivalences.
 
2013-03-27 02:02:49 AM

SpiderQueenDemon: On average, you're looking at size-16 otaku girls with glasses and shyness; but with a little effort and the boost to self-esteem that comes of having a guy who finds them date-able and is willing to share healthy behaviors, they often slim down, seek makeovers and become significantly prettier with time, just as how most guys who get into healthy relationships lose weight, exercise more and are better fed.


Kudos to you and your man on getting healthier, but your situation does not necessarily translate to everyone else. The general assumption is people let themselves go after getting into a relationship. Hell, it's a cliche at this point. So for most people, grabbing a fat girl or guy (unless you're into that), with the expectation that you will magically motivate them to lose weight, is only going to end in flabby tears.

The cat shelter might be good advice. Going for the fat person (unless that's what you want) is bad advice.
 
2013-03-27 03:28:26 AM

Soupysales: Kudos to you and your man on getting healthier, but your situation does not necessarily translate to everyone else. The general assumption is people let themselves go after getting into a relationship. Hell, it's a cliche at this point. So for most people, grabbing a fat girl or guy (unless you're into that), with the expectation that you will magically motivate them to lose weight, is only going to end in flabby tears.

The cat shelter might be good advice. Going for the fat person (unless that's what you want) is bad advice.


This is true. There are also a lot of thinner girls who hang out at cat shelters, luckily, though it's been my experience that they're either A. naturally thin and therefore naturally a bit flat-chested, or B. thin due to other issues that they're self-medicating with kitty time. Anyone you meet at such a self-esteem-building, altruistic establishment, though, you'll definitely want to check over to determine how fixable whatever issues they come with are. (Everyone comes with issues. Accept this now.) You don't get as many attention-whores, high-maintenance types or substance abusers down the cat shelter as you do at, say, a singles bar, but there are often insecurity, abandonment or affection-seeking issues, which in severe cases can be just as bad.

Evaluate every person with whom you're considering a relationship in terms of 'how can they improve me, and how can I improve them? What benefits can we bring each other?' Don't get into a relationship expecting to change someone unless you're also demanding that they change you in some way, and be prepared to be surprised by what the changes and personal growth may be. Some couples are very good for each other and help one another grow, others just enable each other's worst tendencies and that's where you get some 'Days of Wine and Roses' or 'Sid & Nancy' type mess.

Don't seek relationships just because you're lonely, either. Seek the person who makes you want to be a better person, and you'll be pleasantly surprised at how soon everything else follows.

Soup kitchens, political rallies for a cause with which one agrees, secondhand bookstores and Habitat for Humanity builds are also good places to locate potential mates. The girls you'll meet at H-f-H events won't be as obnoxious with the 'honey do' lists as some women, though they'll likely spend as much money on tools as you do, and you'll know instantly that soup-kitchen volunteers like to cook. As for secondhand bookstores, that's kind of a female-dominated market, so you'll be the one being looked over there. Pick up anything Jane Austen and look contemplative, the line of women will form quickly.
 
2013-03-27 10:51:04 AM

Lord Zardoz: weapon13: TFA "He's given a choice: admit the offence and pay a fine, based on income, or go to court and risk publicity."

What if your income is 0? Court it is then...

Most people with an income of zero are going to be unable to conduct an exchange of cash for sex in the first place.  Much the same way that a drunk person who does not have a car is unlikely to be charged with DUI.

END COMMUNICATION


Income is 0 and I've just spent my last 20 on the hooker... whatcha gonna do now copper?
 
2013-03-27 04:05:30 PM

duenor: Oh? How is Sweden going to fix those problems all over the world? It can't. What it CAN do is place the burden of risk in prostitution on the john, as it rightly should be. The john pays up or gets sent to court, the woman gets support in getting out of prostitution (and for forced sex workers, this is a very big deal), and the neighborhoods get a handle on the street trade.

Even if Sweden fixes all those aforementioned issues in country (and it has made big steps to do so), women from abroad will still be brought over. that's ok. they're not trying to eradicate the sex trade, just provide a managing risk factor for those who would partake of it.

I do agree that there should be a legalized system for prostitution. however, without a system like this that legalized system would never be able to compete against the many czech/korean/thai sex workers being coerced into selling their bodies for pittances.


Of course, not that Sweden's prostitution law does anything to halt or stem human sex trafficking as it is: the article itself notes the biggest demographic shift in prostitution  from predominantly "local" women  to trafficked women (namely, because local women are either not participating, or I would suspect regardless of the police's word have found ways to elude the law). And, with a secondary effect traffickers are merely taking their business elsewhere, which admittedly is not Sweden's fault; of course, trafficked women not sent to Sweden in the first place are entirely outside the boundaries of the Swedish government to help regardless of letter, spirit, intent, or means of the law.

And yes, Sweden  is trying to eliminate the sex trade. As the article itself presents, "In the 1990s, the Swedish government accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality and a form of violence against women."What more can be said of it?Taboos against sex (which this position does nothing to eliminate), and the resulting criminalization, are what lead to exploitation and not any intrinsic quality of the act (even the "objectification" is an extrinsic quality wrought by the assertion sex is a somehow demeaning act).

The market for sex yet exists, will always exist, and a legal and regulated market is safer, less exploitative and violent, and more rational than a criminal market. See, any other human vice that has gone through cycles of legalization and prohibition.

Oh, and for whomever sponsored me which I suspect is because of this thread, thanks.
 
2013-03-27 05:19:19 PM

that bosnian sniper: accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality


The hilarious part being that prostitution was originally outlawed in Victorian England in order to shut down an avenue women had for independence...
 
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