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(Denver Channel)   NRA takes a shot at making robocalls in Newtown, CT   (thedenverchannel.com) divider line 647
    More: Dumbass, NRA, Newtown, Connecticut, Sandy Hook Elementary School  
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6173 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Mar 2013 at 9:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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SRD [TotalFark]
2013-03-26 11:35:57 AM  
I'm done here. And I do care about those dead children. There I's a quote I like though take it as you wish.

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery...
 
2013-03-26 11:40:16 AM  

whidbey: BayouOtter: whidbey: SRD: Gun violence is down 50 percent and continues to fall.

Yeah, Sandy Hook was just a blip on the map.   Oh well. Shiat happens, right?

Basically. "Assault weapons' like the AR are used to kill a few hundred people per year. Alcohol kills 80,000 annually, cars about 34,000 per year.
Next to those numbers, 27 is a blip on the map. You're allowing emotion to cloud your judgement.

Nice to know that you feel a mere 27 dead children is an acceptable level of collateral damage in this society to continue with our ineffective gun regulation policy.


I'd wager more kids have died over the freedom of speech and online annonymity.

Little girls hanging themselves over online anonymous harassment and bullying.

Where is your reasonable regulation in regards to speech? Specifically online type social media and forums that the founders could never fathom?

Do you like it when little girls hang themselves?

Face it. You are heartless and only react to what democrats tell you to react to. Like some sort of Pavlovian dog.
 
2013-03-26 11:43:19 AM  

James F. Campbell: vygramul: Kellerman certainly has problems, and it's very hard, if not impossible, to get peer-review without full access to data and methodology.

That's funny, because when I Google "problems with Kellerman," all I can find are whackadoodle right-wing gun-fellatio websites.


How about scholarly journals:  http://hsx.sagepub.com/content/5/1/64.short

Even Kellerman revised his conclusions multiple times.
 
2013-03-26 11:43:43 AM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules:
Bullshiat.  They only do well when you have a Liberal President, otherwise they make as much profit/losses as any store.  Plus, you have no farking clue how much money is being made on personal sales.  No one does.

Right, because all the gun stores shut down when a Republican is in office? I don't even understand this.


You are really just making shiat up at this point.  There are absolutely no volume limits on personal sales.

You're the one making things up, man.

To say there isn't serious money being made (with no overhead costs) is just disingenous.

You might call a few hundred or a few thousand bucks as 'serious money' but that won't feed a family. And yes, putting ads in the paper and going to meet buyers is overhead cost - don't you value your time?

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.  Hell, I know people who make a living selling beanie babies online.  Personal gun sales is also online BTW and it is huge.  Making over a $100,000 a year is not unheard of.  Being able to "feed your family" on the profits has to be the dumbest criteria ever.  Should gun stores with a bad year be forced to lose their license if they didn't make enough money to "feed their family".  Come on.  Try and be serious.

 I'm a positive you know people (of people) who are raking it in right now and there are shortages in many different guns that people are making a shiatload of money off of on personal sales.

Not anyone who's 'raking it in'. I know a few guys that sold a gun or two for more than they paid, but they aren't feeding their family on it. Gun stores are doing well, because they can order rifles from the factory and sell them directly. Anybody who had enough rifles to sell at current prices for enough to live a year was already rich.


Do you ever go to gun shows?  Ever see a table with a sign that said "personal sales"?  Do you know how much that table costs to rent?
 
2013-03-26 11:45:34 AM  
mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.
 
2013-03-26 11:48:24 AM  

redmid17: James F. Campbell: vygramul: Kellerman certainly has problems, and it's very hard, if not impossible, to get peer-review without full access to data and methodology.

That's funny, because when I Google "problems with Kellerman," all I can find are whackadoodle right-wing gun-fellatio websites.

How about scholarly journals:  http://hsx.sagepub.com/content/5/1/64.short

Even Kellerman revised his conclusions multiple times.



There are also studies like the National Institute of Justice study where the gun control proponents are grabbing their 40% of guns are purchased without background checks quote/stat.

The study was done a year after mandatory background checks were instituted.

So anyone who bought their firearm before mandatory background checks were in place could honestly answer that there was no background check done when they purchased the firearm thereby inflating the stats, but not telling the whoile story.
 
2013-03-26 11:49:04 AM  

BayouOtter: The cost of living in a free society is that sometimes people use that freedom to do harm. Would you feel better if we all lived in concrete isolation cubes with entertainment and food piped in? It'd be pretty safe.


Disagree but at least this is an honest argument.  Very rare these day.  Being for personal freedom and being against gun control despite the increase in gun violence in society is an honest argument.

I value personal freedom very highly also.  I would probably place the freedom to buy guns about 59th on my list of freedoms society should work harder on protecting however.
 
2013-03-26 11:50:14 AM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.


http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business
 
2013-03-26 11:53:48 AM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: The cost of living in a free society is that sometimes people use that freedom to do harm. Would you feel better if we all lived in concrete isolation cubes with entertainment and food piped in? It'd be pretty safe.

Disagree but at least this is an honest argument.  Very rare these day.  Being for personal freedom and being against gun control despite the increase in gun violence in society is an honest argument.


There is more gun violence in the news, but violent crime and gun crime have been on the decline for decades.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crim e- rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite

I value personal freedom very highly also.  I would probably place the freedom to buy guns about 59th on my list of freedoms society should work harder on protecting however.

I rate it much higher. It doesn't much matter if I can marry my bisexual Jewish lover if I'm dead.
 
2013-03-26 11:54:03 AM  

Giltric: Face it. You are heartless and only react to what democrats tell you to react to. Like some sort of Pavlovian dog.


You just basically said "oh well, shiat happens, get used to it."

Project much?
 
2013-03-26 11:55:21 AM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business


I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 
2013-03-26 11:55:55 AM  

SRD: I'm done here. And I do care about those dead children. There I's a quote I like though take it as you wish.

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery...


Because a comprehensive gun regulation policy to ensure we have a safer society=slavery.

Sure, bud.
 
2013-03-26 12:00:43 PM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.


Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.
 
2013-03-26 12:01:53 PM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: The cost of living in a free society is that sometimes people use that freedom to do harm. Would you feel better if we all lived in concrete isolation cubes with entertainment and food piped in? It'd be pretty safe.

Disagree but at least this is an honest argument.  Very rare these day.  Being for personal freedom and being against gun control despite the increase in gun violence in society is an honest argument.

There is more gun violence in the news, but violent crime and gun crime have been on the decline for decades.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crim e- rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite

I value personal freedom very highly also.  I would probably place the freedom to buy guns about 59th on my list of freedoms society should work harder on protecting however.

I rate it much higher. It doesn't much matter if I can marry my bisexual Jewish lover if I'm dead.



If they arrest you pot possession, they won't let you keep your gun in prison.
 
2013-03-26 12:02:13 PM  

Fear the Clam: Anyone who robocalls deserves to be kneecapped.


This.  It's unpatriotic.  We could clear the welfare roles if all calls had to be placed by humans.
 
2013-03-26 12:03:18 PM  

whidbey: Giltric: Face it. You are heartless and only react to what democrats tell you to react to. Like some sort of Pavlovian dog.

You just basically said "oh well, shiat happens, get used to it."

Project much?


No. Shiat happens has pretty much been my stance since Newtown.

At least I am honest about it. I've called the situation an outlier, freedom being messy, etc.... You will never be able to make all the evils of the world disappear by criminalizing firearms ownership.

No sense in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Defensive gun use even by the gun control groups estimates far outweigh the damages done by firearms.


You have not posted any proposals in regards to keeping little girls who hang thmselves safe from the dangers of the first amendment via online harassment and bullying. Why are you avoiding the question?

It is up to you to come up with a reasonable solution.....just like how you think it it should be up to the NRA to help infringe on rights that they defend.
 
2013-03-26 12:05:03 PM  
mrshowrules:

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

He switched from a gun store business to an internet business similar to Craigslist.

You claimed you had links to guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars as private sellers of their personal firearms. I'm not seeing it.
 
2013-03-26 12:09:48 PM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.


It's also not distinguishing between auctions that conclude face to face and auctions where the gun has to be shipped across the country. The whole point of the auctions is to make them visible to a wider pool of prospective buyers. Anyone who's attempting to traffic serious amounts of weapons is either going to have to have a distribution network and probably wouldn't bother with a gun auction site or will be mailing most of the guns. To receive a gun in the mail, you have to be a licensed FFL.

If I'm a criminal on the streets of Chicago, I'm not looking for guns on a website. There are people I know who will sell me stolen or straw purchased guns. Either the ATF or CPD just busted a college student and another guy for making gun runs into nearby states and selling them to gang members in Englewood.
 
2013-03-26 12:13:11 PM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: The cost of living in a free society is that sometimes people use that freedom to do harm. Would you feel better if we all lived in concrete isolation cubes with entertainment and food piped in? It'd be pretty safe.

Disagree but at least this is an honest argument.  Very rare these day.  Being for personal freedom and being against gun control despite the increase in gun violence in society is an honest argument.

I value personal freedom very highly also.  I would probably place the freedom to buy guns about 59th on my list of freedoms society should work harder on protecting however.


Ooohhh...okay, I see where your misunderstanding is. Gun violence is decreasing every year even though more states are allowing concealed carry and the Supreme Court told DC to take their handgun ban and shove it. Seriously, the stats are pathetically easy to look up, and I'm referring to FBI and CDC data as well, not NRA numbers. Look, Sandy Hook was a horrible tragedy, but politicizing it to ban things you don't like in the name of "The Childrenz!!!" is BS. It was an event that puts you more at risk of being struck by lightning than being involved in a mass shooting. If you want to prevent this type of thing, demonize the ACLU for making it impossible to forceably commit a known psychopath because "They didn't do anything yet".
Again, record numbers of guns in private hands, continually increasing numbers of CCW permit holders, and gun crime is going DOWN.
Sorry if that doesn't play into your predetermined "fix" of the issue.
 
2013-03-26 12:13:48 PM  

mrshowrules: Are you shiatting me? It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.


2 billion in sales since he started the business in 1999. Not to be confused with 2 billion in profit for him.

I don't think anyone should take you seriously anymore.
 
2013-03-26 12:14:25 PM  

pedrop357: LordJiro: pedrop357: LordJiro: pedrop357: JolobinSmokin: Good for them, gun owners are an oppressed group of ppl

If what's done to the 2nd amendment were done to any other enumerated or unenumerated right, the people wishing to exercise those rights would consider it oppression.

Yep, NO right is restricted in any way! That argument is in no way absolute bullshiat.

Gun nuts would be taken a little more seriously if they'd pull themselves off their goddamn crosses. For TOUGH MANLY SHOOTIN MEN, they do seem like a bunch of whiny pussies.

No right is as restricted as the right to bear arms

Which amendment specifically mentions being "Well-regulated" besides the Second?

0/10

The "well regulated" portion does not restrict or confine the right to bear arms and you know it.  "Well regulated" was used differently then compared to now and applied to the composition and training of the militia.  You have to know that too.

E for effort.


Yes, in those days "well-regulated" meant "functioning as expected/desired."  The founders expected and desired the right to bear arms to produce the ability to raise a competent militia  at need to defend the people.  They did not expect  or  desire the people to shoot one another.
 
2013-03-26 12:23:27 PM  

redmid17: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.

It's also not distinguishing between auctions that conclude face to face and auctions where the gun has to be shipped across the country. The whole point of the auctions is to make them visible to a wider pool of prospective buyers. Anyone who's attempting to traffic serious amounts of weapons is either going to have to have a distribution network and probably wouldn't bother with a gun auction site or will be mailing most of the guns. To receive a gun in the mail, you have to be a licensed FFL.

If I'm a criminal on the streets of Chicago, I'm not looking for guns on a website. There are people I know who will sell me stolen or straw purchased guns. Either the ATF or CPD just busted a college student and another guy for making gun runs into nearby states and selling them to gang members in Englewood.


Also to head off people at the pass, anything that gets mailed to an FFL is also subject to the standard NICS background check before it can be released, no matter what agreement the auction seller and buyer came to.
 
2013-03-26 12:47:56 PM  
It is 100%, without question, pure ignorance to think that a gun ban would have stopped Sandy Hook, or any other mass murder. Period.

BUT

A gun ban isn't going to happen.

Crazy is crazy whether they have access to a gun, knife, pipe bomb, truck, train, car, baseball bat, or a stick with a really sharp end.
 
2013-03-26 12:54:39 PM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

He switched from a gun store business to an internet business similar to Craigslist.

You claimed you had links to guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars as private sellers of their personal firearms. I'm not seeing it.


Oh for farksake.  I said over a $100K.  I can provide you an example of a guy who made $118K.  I found it earlier.  Would that make any farking difference in this debate.  When did the amount of profit become the issue.  Let's say it is somewhere more than a meal for your family and less than $1M.  Who the fark cares.
 
2013-03-26 12:55:41 PM  

RockofAges: Oh boy, another gun thread.


[Long stupid list of infringement proposals, none of which are new or creative.]

Please fark off.
 
2013-03-26 12:57:45 PM  

Bonzo_1116: I'd like the system to at least be available to private sellers/buyers.  The last thing I'd want on my conscience was knowing I'd sold one of my guns to a raging nutcase/felon who has a burning desire to fill his ex-girlfriend full of holes.  And If I was buying, it'd be nice to be assured that the gun hadn't been used in a crime.  I'm not sure how the background check system can be made available to the general public without compromising people's privacy, though.


Maybe your local gun shop (or FFL in his basement) will sell yours on consignment.
The small percentage for the consignment is a small price for the piece of mind that the person who bought your beloved gun isn't a dangerous felon
 
2013-03-26 12:58:22 PM  

redmid17: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.

It's also not distinguishing between auctions that conclude face to face and auctions where the gun has to be shipped across the country. The whole point of the auctions is to make them visible to a wider pool of prospective buyers. Anyone who's attempting to traffic serious amounts of weapons is either going to have to have a distribution network and probably wouldn't bother with a gun auction site or will be mailing most of the guns. To receive a gun in the mail, you have to be a licensed FFL.

If I'm a criminal on the streets of Chicago, I'm not looking for guns on a website. There are people I know who will sell me stolen or straw purchased guns. Either the ATF or CPD just busted a college student and another guy for making gun runs into nearby states and selling them to gang members in Englewood.


I was arguing a stupid point someone was making that there was no significant profit in private sales.
 
2013-03-26 12:58:47 PM  
mrshowrules:
Oh for farksake.  I said over a $100K.  I can provide you an example of a guy who made $118K.  I found it earlier.  Would that make any farking difference in this debate.

Maybe you should provide citations when you make claims.

 When did the amount of profit become the issue.

When you brought it up.

  Let's say it is somewhere more than a meal for your family and less than $1M.  Who the fark cares.

The ATF does, since they are in the business of determining who is a firearms dealer and requires a license to operate, and who is not.
 
2013-03-26 01:01:49 PM  
Freedom from being enslaved, even for those not convicted of a crime, is not an absolute right. It is subject to regulation, and we as a society have the right to determine what those regulations should be.
 
2013-03-26 01:02:54 PM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

He switched from a gun store business to an internet business similar to Craigslist.

You claimed you had links to guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars as private sellers of their personal firearms. I'm not seeing it.

Oh for farksake.  I said over a $100K.  I can provide you an example of a guy who made $118K.  I found it earlier.  Would that make any farking difference in this debate.  When did the amount of profit become the issue.  Let's say it is somewhere more than a meal for your family and less than $1M.  Who the fark cares.


Were those the people running the auction or selling the guns? Getting a cut of a private sale because you're an intermediary is pretty universal. The ATF doesn't ignore those sites. Obviously someone selling their enough guns to the tune of 118K is potentially worrisome. However it can also be a serious gun collector selling off some rare NFA weapons. Nice full auto guns go for 15K-20K. Selling one or two of those even a year hardly warrants any more scrutiny than NFA transfers already get.
 
2013-03-26 01:03:39 PM  

Giltric: mrshowrules: Are you shiatting me? It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

2 billion in sales since he started the business in 1999. Not to be confused with 2 billion in profit for him.

I don't think anyone should take you seriously anymore.



busi·ness  [biz-nis] Show IPAnoun1.an occupation, profession, or trade:His business is poultryfa rming.
Don't take me seriously but poor literacy is no laughing matter.  Private sales is a billion dollar business in the US.   I have no clue what this guy making but presumably it was more than owning a gun store and it is based on private sales.
 
2013-03-26 01:04:22 PM  

DeArmondVI: Since the truetm intent of the 2nd Amendment is to make us a country armed and ready to fight off a future totalitarian regime, let us follow the path of logic.

(1) Land mines and IEDs kill more US troops than bullets

(2) Citizens need to actually be capable of defending themselves against government troops

(3) Ergo, by not allowing me to easily (and paper free!) buy land mines, the government is oppressing my right to hypothetically be deadly against its soldiers in a hypothetical dystopian future

(4) Also of note: the law cannot forbid me from making my front-yard a minefield. It's private property. If some dumb ass kid knowingly violates the private property of my lawn and get a leg blown off and/or dies, that's the price of freedom, and just shows what happens to people when they aren't responsible.


Since you've moved the argument to land mines, can I take it then that you agree that the right to bear arms protects ownership of all firearms, or at least all handheld arms that might be possesses by a soldier or police officer?
 
2013-03-26 01:05:06 PM  

mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Are you shiatting me? It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

2 billion in sales since he started the business in 1999. Not to be confused with 2 billion in profit for him.

I don't think anyone should take you seriously anymore.


busi·ness  [biz-nis] Show IPAnoun1.an occupation, profession, or trade:His business is poultryfa rming.
Don't take me seriously but poor literacy is no laughing matter.  Private sales is a billion dollar business in the US.   I have no clue what this guy making but presumably it was more than owning a gun store and it is based on private sales.


But he is not a private seller!
If I sell airplane fuel that doesn't make me a pilot!
 
2013-03-26 01:05:38 PM  

whidbey: SRD: Gun violence is down 50 percent and continues to fall.

Yeah, Sandy Hook was just a blip on the map.   Oh well. Shiat happens, right?

The second allows us to own similar arms to the average soldier.

The fark it does.


Then what arms does it allow us to own, and what do you base that on?
 
2013-03-26 01:08:20 PM  

redmid17: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

He switched from a gun store business to an internet business similar to Craigslist.

You claimed you had links to guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars as private sellers of their personal firearms. I'm not seeing it.

Oh for farksake.  I said over a $100K.  I can provide you an example of a guy who made $118K.  I found it earlier.  Would that make any farking difference in this debate.  When did the amount of profit become the issue.  Let's say it is somewhere more than a meal for your family and less than $1M.  Who the fark cares.

Were those the people running the auction or selling the guns? Getting a cut of a private sale because you're an intermediary is pretty universal. The ATF doesn't ignore those sites. Obviously someone selling their enough guns to the tune of 118K is potentially worrisome. However it can also be a serious gun collector selling off some rare NFA weapons. Nice full auto guns go for 15K-20K. Selling one or two of those even a year hardly warrants any more scrutiny than NFA transfers already get.


The ATF doesn't track private sales.   It mentions this in the article.  Anyways, there is no volume limits on private sells or gun store sales so why have that as a consideration for background checks?
 
2013-03-26 01:08:21 PM  

redmid17: Were those the people running the auction or selling the guns? Getting a cut of a private sale because you're an intermediary is pretty universal. The ATF doesn't ignore those sites. Obviously someone selling their enough guns to the tune of 118K is potentially worrisome. However it can also be a serious gun collector selling off some rare NFA weapons. Nice full auto guns go for 15K-20K. Selling one or two of those even a year hardly warrants any more scrutiny than NFA transfers already get.


To be fair, the NFA transfers already go through background checks and other such processes -- there's no "off the books" private sale for NFA items. You can avoid a dealer, if you want, but you still need all the paperwork to be legal.

I have no problem with individuals selling their non-NFA guns through private sales, so long as it's clear that they're doing it as a strictly occasional thing -- if one is regularly selling guns, then the ATF should get involved. An occasional private sale here and there, no biggie. If one is engaging in private sales to transfer guns to prohibited persons then the buyer and seller should be nailed to the wall.
 
2013-03-26 01:08:24 PM  

mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.


The point that you can't seem to get, is that he's still a dealer and still subject to all the rules of being a dealer.
 
2013-03-26 01:11:46 PM  

pedrop357: Freedom from being enslaved, even for those not convicted of a crime, is not an absolute right. It is subject to regulation, and we as a society have the right to determine what those regulations should be.


I was responding to one of whidbey's posts with the above.
 
2013-03-26 01:15:19 PM  

BayouOtter: mrshowrules: Giltric: mrshowrules: Are you shiatting me? It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

2 billion in sales since he started the business in 1999. Not to be confused with 2 billion in profit for him.

I don't think anyone should take you seriously anymore.


busi·ness  [biz-nis] Show IPAnoun1.an occupation, profession, or trade:His business is poultryfa rming.
Don't take me seriously but poor literacy is no laughing matter.  Private sales is a billion dollar business in the US.   I have no clue what this guy making but presumably it was more than owning a gun store and it is based on private sales.

But he is not a private seller!
If I sell airplane fuel that doesn't make me a pilot!

Private gun sales is a multi-Billion dollar a year business but no individual in the US makes more than $100K.  You win.  You are the S.M.R.T. and we will just forget the fact that even though people don't declare this as income it is always less profitable than a gun store.

In summary of your points (starting point for the next thread):

1) private sales are never significantly profitable (always make less profit than gun stores)
2) the US does not have a serious gun violence problem
3) gun stores are different because they buy from factories

 
2013-03-26 01:15:25 PM  

mrshowrules: redmid17: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

He switched from a gun store business to an internet business similar to Craigslist.

You claimed you had links to guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars as private sellers of their personal firearms. I'm not seeing it.

Oh for farksake.  I said over a $100K.  I can provide you an example of a guy who made $118K.  I found it earlier.  Would that make any farking difference in this debate.  When did the amount of profit become the issue.  Let's say it is somewhere more than a meal for your family and less than $1M.  Who the fark cares.

Were those the people running the auction or selling the guns? Getting a cut of a private sale because you're an intermediary is pretty universal. The ATF doesn't ignore those sites. Obviously someone selling their enough guns to the tune of 118K is potentially worrisome. However it can also be a serious gun collector selling off some rare NFA weapons. Nice full auto guns go for 15K-20K. Selling one or two of those even a year hardly warrants any more scrutiny than NFA transfers already get.

The ATF doesn't track private sales.   It mentions this in the article.  Anyways, there is no volume limits on private sells or gun store sales so why have that as a consideration for background checks?


People in the business of selling firearms are required to have a license as dealers.  Background checks have to be done by dealers.

People not in the business of selling firearms do not have to be dealers, and by extension, do not have to perform background checks.  It's been this way since background checks were introduced in 1993.

You've yet to show anyone acting as a private seller and actually dealing in firearms without an FFL.
Also, what problem do you think will be solved by forcing all transfers to undergo background checks?

Why should a person have to do a background check on a relative, close friend, hunting buddy, range partner,etc. before loaning or giving them a gun?
 
2013-03-26 01:17:51 PM  

pedrop357: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules: BayouOtter: mrshowrules:

This point would be stupid even if it was true.  There are many examples of people making a living off of this.

Link me then.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/online-gun-sellers-d o- a-bang-up-business

I'm seeing a story about people who run businesses selling ammunition and accessories, you know a company - making money online.
I'm also seeing about websites that have taken the place of the local classified ads.

I'm not seeing a story about any one person operating as a private seller of firearms making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are you shiatting me?  It is a $Billion a year business and the guy literally closed up his gun store to make more money brokering on-line sales of guns.

I am officially not taking you seriously anymore.

The point that you can't seem to get, is that he's still a dealer and still subject to all the rules of being a dealer.


Who are you talking about?  People selling guns privately online or the brokering the on-line service.  It is a big profit business and the online sales don't require background checks and they should is my overall point.
 
2013-03-26 01:20:17 PM  

mrshowrules: I have no clue what this guy making but presumably it was more than owning a gun store and it is based on private sales.


Is he? I've sold a few guns on GunBroker and in each sale I had to send the gun to a licensed dealer (who performed a background check on the buyer). They sent me a copy of the license and I verified it on the ATF website prior to mailing it. Pretty much all the gun sellers I've ever seen on GunBroker are either licensed dealers (in which case they need to send it to your local FFL for the check) or a private person who will only send to your local FFL. I've never seen any direct person-to-person gun sales on GunBroker of anything except antique, unregulated firearms.
 
2013-03-26 01:22:16 PM  

mrshowrules: Who are you talking about? People selling guns privately online or the brokering the on-line service. It is a big profit business and the online sales don't require background checks and they should is my overall point.


Define brokering-is this a gunbroker.com type site, or is the person accepting firearms for transfer?

If I advertise my gun for sale online to another person in my state, why would I need a broker?
This is no different then me selling it to a friend from work or whatever.

Dealers cannot ship to unlicensed persons (non-dealers) in other states, so if it's out of state, I have to transfer my gun to a dealer in my state, who then transfers it to a dealer in the other state.  That dealer then does a background check on the recipient.
 
2013-03-26 01:22:43 PM  
mrshowrules:
Who are you talking about?  People selling guns privately online or the brokering the on-line service.  It is a big profit business

For the websites acting as a broker, not the actual private sellers you are discussing.

and the online sales don't require background checks and they should is my overall point.

Any online sale that crosses state lines requires a background check and must go through an FFL. In-state face to face deals are subject to varying state laws.
 
2013-03-26 01:25:37 PM  

way south: firefly212: the idea that you could quite literally sell guns out of your trunk in person to person transactions with no paperwork at all... and that it is legal in many places

Selling a few guns privately is legal.   Dealing large numbers of firearms without a license is a felony.
The problem with UBC is they plan to make everything done without government permission a felony, which greatly affects alot of law abiding gun owners. Raising prices and complicating transfers.
Since the government has been in the habit of giving guns away and turning a blind eye to straw purchasers and corrupt dealers, the fact is this law is written to ensnare people like you and me.Not the guy with a trunk full of guns.

/But really, this is the internet era. Who still uses robo-calls?


Oddly enough, robocalling in and of itself has gone to the Internet era--most illegal telemarketing (and pretty much all the illegal telemarketing can be linked to one or two companies based in the US with a number of overseas subsidiaries and bogus CLECs) anymore involves robocalling via what is essentially spamming via SIP-based VoIP (it's common enough that it's earned a nickname--SPIT (SPam over Internet Telephony)--and there are technological approaches being researched both by the FCC and by researchers worldwide into mitigating the effects).

/thinks all advertising--telemarketing included--should be strictly opt-in only, with mandatory thagomizer to the naughty bits for violators
 
2013-03-26 01:25:44 PM  

pedrop357: DeArmondVI: Since the truetm intent of the 2nd Amendment is to make us a country armed and ready to fight off a future totalitarian regime, let us follow the path of logic.

(1) Land mines and IEDs kill more US troops than bullets

(2) Citizens need to actually be capable of defending themselves against government troops

(3) Ergo, by not allowing me to easily (and paper free!) buy land mines, the government is oppressing my right to hypothetically be deadly against its soldiers in a hypothetical dystopian future

(4) Also of note: the law cannot forbid me from making my front-yard a minefield. It's private property. If some dumb ass kid knowingly violates the private property of my lawn and get a leg blown off and/or dies, that's the price of freedom, and just shows what happens to people when they aren't responsible.

Since you've moved the argument to land mines, can I take it then that you agree that the right to bear arms protects ownership of all firearms, or at least all handheld arms that might be possesses by a soldier or police officer?


Actually, I was thinking about "arms" as mentioned in the 2nd Amendment. If the intent was to be limited only to guns, and not canons, for example, then they would have said "firearms" and not more broadly "arms". While guns are certainly "arms", so are land mines. I take it that you agree with me that our government is already in violation of our 2nd Amendment by forbidding me to purchase landmines (without a paper trail) in order to protect my private property?

And if you do believe that the federal government is infringing upon that right, what ought we to do about it? Should we just sit back and watch as the tyrants prevent us from actually being able to protect ourselves from an evil government, or should we advocate (vociferously) to our elected officials, and in the national media, that private citizens ought to be able to make their own private minefields?

Do you side with the totalitarians, or with those of us who love the 2nd Amendment more than you?
 
2013-03-26 01:26:47 PM  

pedrop357: People in the business of selling firearms are required to have a license as dealers.  Background checks have to be done by dealers.

People not in the business of selling firearms do not have to be dealers, and by extension, do not have to perform background checks.  It's been this way since background checks were introduced in 1993.

You've yet to show anyone acting as a private seller and actually dealing in firearms without an FFL.
Also, what problem do you think will be solved by forcing all transfers to undergo background checks?

"dealing" is not a legal definition is it.  I you buy and sell a dozen, a hundred or a thousand guns in a year, I would call you a dealer.  Are you saying this doesn't happen?

Why should a person have to do a background check on a relative, close friend, hunting buddy, range partner,etc. before loaning or giving them a gun?


If you are a felon or have been certified insane, I'm sure you can find a relative, close friend, club member, range partner, frat-club member who will sell you a gun without asking to many questions.  I'm sure the mother of the kid at Sandy Hook loved to lend her kid guns.
 
2013-03-26 01:27:06 PM  

mrshowrules: It is a big profit business and the online sales don't require background checks and they should is my overall point.


They don't? Care to point out an example of a gun for sale that doesn't require sending to an FFL (the FFL carries out the background check)?

If a gun is being shipped interstate, it absolutely requires being sent to an FFL. A rifle or shotgun can be shipped within the same state in a private sale, though this is quite rare. Handguns can only be mailed by an FFL to an FFL, regardless of whether or not it's being sent in-state or out-of-state.

Essentially all online gun sales can be thought of as "ship to store" -- you buy the gun online, they ship it to your local dealer, you undergo the background check there.
 
2013-03-26 01:29:34 PM  

sheep snorter: Would the NRA be upset at this phrases in response:

"Praise Allah. We need high capacity rounds to defend ourselves from these crazy Christians".

"Now we can safely go to Mosque and if a fat white man tries to accost our children, we can shoot him 30 times per each of our guns and all within 10 seconds."

"Can you send some large NRA banners? We could display them on the roadside of our homes and Mosques".



forum-img.pinside.com

/hotlinked
//I think
///stupid image gallery doesn't hand out simple URLs anymore
 
2013-03-26 01:30:25 PM  

DeArmondVI: Actually, I was thinking about "arms" as mentioned in the 2nd Amendment. If the intent was to be limited only to guns, and not canons, for example, then they would have said "firearms" and not more broadly "arms". While guns are certainly "arms", so are land mines. I take it that you agree with me that our government is already in violation of our 2nd Amendment by forbidding me to purchase landmines (without a paper trail) in order to protect my private property?

And if you do believe that the federal government is infringing upon that right, what ought we to do about it? Should we just sit back and watch as the tyrants prevent us from actually being able to protect ourselves from an evil government, or should we advocate (vociferously) to our elected officials, and in the national media, that private citizens ought to be able to make their own private minefields?

Do you side with the totalitarians, or with those of us who love the 2nd Amendment more than you?


I was curious where you stood on the issue of firearms and other personal and crew served weapons.  Why didn't you answer that?

I'm in favor of people being able to buy and own anything the police, military, etc. can, including land mines if the police or military are using them.  Most states have laws against booby traps, so deploying those mines in the front yard is illegal.
 
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