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(Newsweek)   Nerds, start your boners: Game of Thrones season 3 is even better than the first two seasons   (thedailybeast.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Game of Thrones, HBO, D.B. Weiss, David Benioff, collective consciousness, Jon Snow, Lena Headey, Emilia Clarke  
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7623 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Mar 2013 at 9:40 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-26 10:55:06 AM  

bhcompy: Father_Jack: Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.

And that's just because GRRM screwed the pooch with Arya's story, nothing else.


explain yourself. do it. do it now or ill have you on your way to The Wall.
 
2013-03-26 11:03:36 AM  

Bullseyed: More  Emilia Clarke and Lena Headey naked. Make it happen.


FTFY
 
2013-03-26 11:07:41 AM  

dragonchild: SoIaF's most distinctive characteristic is its own undoing; it suffers from waaaaay too much parity (or more accurately, inaction). It's not the number of characters that cripple it so much as lack of a single meaningful one. Who's the most important character? Is it Tyrion? His "victory" is mostly treading water in a cesspool without drowning or getting overwhelmed by the stench. Slapping the King may have been emotionally satisfying but it doesn't bring Westeros so much as an inch closer to political stability. Is it Dany? She's not even in Westeros. Is it Jon Snow? He finally started getting desperate in DoD but he was summarily given GRRM's ol' "this is what happens to sympathetic characters if they get proactive" treatment. Is it the Stark children? They've been so excruciatingly passive that even by the end of the fifth book I'd argue the late Ned is still more relevant than all of them combined. Anyone else? The reward for playing is getting killed off if you upset GRRM's carefully cultivated balance of power. After four thousand pages, there's yet to be any sort of victory by anyone that can't be completely undone a couple hundred pages later (the most plausible explanation for why Dany is still alive is her utter irrelevance to Westeros). Any crypto-bastard that bites it just gets replaced by another crypto-bastard. Some real-life badass like the aforementioned Vlad, or Hannibal or Subutai, would have a goddamn meteorite snuff him out in a smoking crater of deus ex machina if GRRM couldn't find some other way of killing off the nuisance. It's like GRRM is severely allergic to closure or something.


This is all very true, but I'd love to see people decide who is important and who is not, and then debate it amongst each other by comparing all the trivial things their favourite has done so far. I conquered Winterfell! I orchestrated the TRW! But I have dragons! Ah, but I killed someone, freed a hostage, cost my son his victory because I got worried about one of my kids, got killed, got resurrected and am now an irrelevant side character with far too much back story.

Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.
 
2013-03-26 11:13:16 AM  

Nick Spiceyweiner: Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something.


This was also supposed to have been a trilogy.  Just sayin'.

Father_Jack: Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them.


That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but I'm curious as to how this would happen without being ridiculous.  Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.  OK, seriously, the noble families have been shown to squabble to such a self-destructive extent that the most plausible reaction they'd have to any supernatural threat is a mass exodus out of Westeros, buying favors with their ill-gotten wealth along the way, until the tattered victims of their civil war are left to deal with essentially a Land of the Dead crapsack world.  Not only is there zero evidence Dany is punching her ticket to Westeros anytime soon, even if she did arrive there's absolutely no reason for Tyrion to trust what he would see as a power-hungry carpetbagger.  There hasn't been any sort of "Escape from the Death Star" sequence to firmly establish any sort of unity amongst the surviving sympathetic characters; they've spent much of the epic separated from each other.  If GRRM ever had some sort of grand epic finale in mind, he's already long missed the chance to build up to it.  The story desperately needs some Jedi or Ring-bearer to rally around and Dany is the most likely candidate by default (if only because of her dragons), but she couldn't be more distracted if this was called Side Quests.  It's a stretch to assume anyone in the Westeros meatgrinder would rally to her banner when she can't even manage a popular uprising in Mereen without farking things up.
*I keed, I keed
 
2013-03-26 11:13:57 AM  

DerAppie: Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.


Highly unlikely, since the only reason that the other person got brought back was because of who found their body.
 
2013-03-26 11:14:37 AM  

elvindeath: Kimpak: MEH

I'm edgy because I kill off main characters.

Only thing I like about this show is the ample amounts of boobage.

MEH.

I'm edgy because I just throw a bunch of boobs into my show.


But they need the boobs. As a wise machine/dinosaur once said: Because, Inferno, when expecting booby traps... Always send the "boob" in first.

And the way they keep falling they could use a bit more of them.
 
2013-03-26 11:16:25 AM  

dragonchild: Nick Spiceyweiner: Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something.

This was also supposed to have been a trilogy.  Just sayin'.

Father_Jack: Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them.

That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but I'm curious as to how this would happen without being ridiculous.  Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.  OK, seriously, the noble families have been shown to squabble to such a self-destructive extent that the most plausible reaction they'd have to any supernatural threat is a mass exodus out of Westeros, buying favors with their ill-gotten wealth along the way, until the tattered victims of their civil war are left to deal with essentially a Land of the Dead crapsack world.  Not only is there zero evidence Dany is punching her ticket to Westeros anytime soon, even if she did arrive there's absolutely no reason for Tyrion to trust what he would see as a power-hungry carpetbagger.  There hasn't been any sort of "Escape from the Death Star" sequence to firmly establish any sort of unity amongst the surviving sympathetic characters; they've spent much of the epic separated from each other.  If GRRM ever had some sort of grand epic finale in mind, he's already long missed the chance to build up to it.  The story desperately needs some Jedi or Ring-bearer to rally around and Dany is the most likely candidate by default (if only because of her dragons), but she couldn't be more distracted if this was called Side Quests.  It's a stretch to assume anyone in the Westeros meatgrinder would rally to her banner when she can't ev ...


Spolier if you haven't read the books yet...

Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.

/That's my 2 cents, and I'm stickin' to it.
 
2013-03-26 11:20:05 AM  

Father_Jack: bhcompy: Father_Jack: Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.

And that's just because GRRM screwed the pooch with Arya's story, nothing else.

explain yourself. do it. do it now or ill have you on your way to The Wall.


The execution of her current storyline is very poor compared the execution of her previous storylines.  She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.
 
2013-03-26 11:31:39 AM  

Teufelaffe: DerAppie: Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.

Highly unlikely, since the only reason that the other person got brought back was because of who found their body.


Yeah I know, but considering the personality of our newly resurrected I am not convinced that she won't do some "convincing" of her own to find the body and force a resurrection on whatever is left.
 
2013-03-26 11:36:56 AM  

Teufelaffe: Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.


Yeah, but we're at the end of book 5 out of 7 (assuming GRRM doesn't blow it again) and he's not even there yet, and things really don't matter until Dany arrives in Westeros.  I'm taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach here because at this point it's all GRRM deserves.  To compare this to a more conventional story arc, about 5/7ths into the original Star Wars trilogy they're adding ewoks to the mix.  OK, bad example, sorry.  My point is that by the time Star Wars has built up to its climactic 3-prong battle -- not during it, before it -- the camaraderie between Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia and Luke that's essential to defeating the Empire is a given because it's been cultivated over the prior 2 1/2 movies' worth of watching them struggle and grow.  This is something GRRM has gone out of his way to avoid doing until about midway through FfC, which is his perogative, but it also means his sympathetic characters have been disorganized and scattered for far too long for them to make any difference without deconstructing the deconstruction that's built up over 4000 pages.

My point isn't that GRRM should work toward a happy ending; I just don't see any meaningful ending coming out of this at all.  The only thing I get out of all I've read is that GRRM is hopelessly in love with the status quo, which is ironic considering this whole epic reads like a giant statement about corruption & politics.  You can't just have Tyrion meet Dany after five phone books' worth of "trust no one" and give her the official Tyrion Lannister Seal of ApprovalTM even if she's got dragons.  Hell, Sansa shouldn't even trust Arya if they ever manage to reunite considering what both have been through.  It takes time for characters to build trust, and in a cloak & dagger world like Westeros it's especially difficult.  The most expedient way Dany gets a banner up is by asserting some sort of divine right, but far from asserting her own destiny she's been shopping for husbands and Tyrion strikes me as the least likely character to buy that sort of justification anyway.
 
2013-03-26 11:40:10 AM  

bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.


I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.
 
2013-03-26 11:51:26 AM  
Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.
 
2013-03-26 11:52:32 AM  

dragonchild: Teufelaffe: Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.

Yeah, but we're at the end of book 5 out of 7 (assuming GRRM doesn't blow it again) and he's not even there yet, and things really don't matter until Dany arrives in Westeros.  I'm taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach here because at this point it's all GRRM deserves.  To compare this to a more conventional story arc, about 5/7ths into the original Star Wars trilogy they're adding ewoks to the mix.  OK, bad example, sorry.  My point is that by the time Star Wars has built up to its climactic 3-prong battle -- not during it, before it -- the camaraderie between Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia and Luke that's essential to defeating the Empire is a given because it's been cultivated over the prior 2 1/2 movies' worth of watching them struggle and grow.  This is something GRRM has gone out of his way to avoid doing until about midway through FfC, which is his perogative, but it also means his sympathetic characters have been disorganized and scattered for far too long for them to make any difference without deconstructing the deconstruction that's built up over 4000 pages.

My point isn't that GRRM should work toward a happy ending; I just don't see any meaningful ending coming out of this at all.  The only thing I get out of all I've read is that GRRM is hopelessly in love with the status quo, which is ironic considering this whole epic reads like a giant statement about corruption & politics.  You can't just have Tyrion meet Dany after five phone books' worth of "trust no one" and give her the official Tyrion Lannister Seal of ApprovalTM even if she's got dragons.  Hell, Sansa shouldn't even trust Arya if they ever manage to reunite considering what both have been through.  It takes time for characters to build trust, and in a cloak & dagger world like Westeros it's especially difficult.  The most expedient way Dany gets ...


sure there is. the politics is a very long winded side show.

the war between the wolf and the lion is a sideshow. it paves the way for a targaryan restoration by disrupting current order of alliances, and draining power from strong houses to enable them to be toppled with dani eventually returns to fight the REAL fight, which is the horror in the North above the wall. And only the dragons will defeat the north and the undead.

the characters imo are all being groomed to either take a place in this new westeros subsequent to dani's ascension to the throne either has her vassals or family. if we think about the roles the characters are playing in westeros, i think the ones which will survive are the ones which will have a role in this organization.

if dani and the targs are going to reign supreme to defend the realm from the horror north of the wall, what role are you going to have in her dynasty? if you have one, i bet youll survive the series. if you dont, you wont.
 
2013-03-26 12:19:17 PM  
As long as it has the boobies and the bonking...
 
2013-03-26 01:01:35 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Yep I dropped it.  These money grubbing fantasy authors are shameless.  Take some chances and move on you dumb bunny!  Spoiler alert: wine is drunk, people are killed, plot inches forward.  Don't even get me started on Aria.
 
2013-03-26 01:06:02 PM  

Father_Jack: dani eventually returns to fight the REAL fight, which is the horror in the North above the wall. And only the dragons will defeat the north and the undead.


Which brings up the question:  Do you think GRRM will show us the war against North's horrors, or do you think the series will end with whoever takes and holds the Iron Throne uniting Westeros and gathering their forces for the confrontation?
 
2013-03-26 01:20:24 PM  

dragonchild: Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.


I would have said Benjamin Linus, but Nicole Kidman works...
 
2013-03-26 01:26:08 PM  
Mrs BrianGriffin has a masters in medieval studies and devours books about the politics of that era and she tells me that this series (she has only watched the series, but not read the books) is far and away the most accurate depiction of what it was like, politically and life in general, back then. I don't know if that was Martin's intent or not, but the overall grim future for just about everyone, the need to constantly reposition yourself based on power changing hands so abruptly was commonplace. Alliances collapsed overnight all the time, power shifts were frequently dictated by brutality and loyalty was almost non-existent unless one was confident that the person you aligned yourself to would stay in power. And that was all just for those of noble birth...if you were a commoner, you simply were farked, period. If there is an overriding theme to the books (admittedly, I have only read 1-3 so far) it's that no one is ever "safe" in the same way that we interpret the word "safe." Personally, I love the series because it is unlike anything else I have ever seen, on TV or in cinema. Every episode, at best, contains about 3-5 minutes when the listener can somewhat relax, otherwise the entire hour is spent dreading what might happen to a character one cares about. Another thing about the series is how the majority of the characters are so damn complex. With a few exceptions, e.g. Joffrey, even wholly unsympathetic ones, e.g. Cersei, have moments when one feels pity for them. THAT is great writing, IMO.

I feel damn lucky to have lived in an era when I could see works like this one and LOTR come to fruition on the screen. I still cringe at previous attempts at fantasy through the years, such as the excruciatingly horrid takes on The Earthsea series, the Chronicles of Prydain (Disney's The Black Cauldron which was so utterly full of fail compared to the book), and others. I'll take what I can get if it continues to be of this caliber and not be bothered by a handful of nits to be picked.

/YMMV, of course.
 
2013-03-26 01:27:33 PM  
I think the only thing predictable from GRRM is that the books will not, in fact, have a traditional "happy ending".  The only probable happy outcome is that all of humankind is not wiped out by ice zombies or burnt to death by raging dragons.
 
2013-03-26 01:33:00 PM  
Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.
 
2013-03-26 01:37:22 PM  

Egoy3k: Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.


THIS.
I gave up on fantasy a few decades ago. Loved it as a teen but after plowing through tolkien, zelazny, moorcock, and maybe a few others whose names escape me at the moment I found the writing of most fantasy authors to be pretty awful. But I do like a good sprawling read. I am the type of person who, when turning the last page of a good novel is genuinely sad to be at the end, and wishing there was more.
Then I found out about this GoT series being made into a series by hbo  and figured, why not? And quite frankly, I found the books to be quite fulfilling and enthralling. Yes I was thrown a bit by book four but I still enjoyed it. I love the sprawl of these books (it would be disingenuous of me to think otherwise though), I enjoy the uncertainty of any given characters future, and I am very glad that GRRM is putting this stuff out there for our entertainment.
And I am not of the opinion that the series has 'serious issues', I think it's developing just fine.
In short, I trust this author to tell me the story he wants to tell. And really, thats all I ever ask from an author.
I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...
 
2013-03-26 01:57:10 PM  

dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.


Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.
 
2013-03-26 01:57:17 PM  

Zoophagous: House Targerain (sp?)


Books on tape?
 
2013-03-26 02:01:06 PM  
So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?
Love medieval fantasy for the most part. Never got into Wheel of Time, made it about 3 or 4 books into Sword of Truth, loved Raymond Feist up to a point. When he killed everyone off and asked us to follow their children/grandchildren, I gave up. That and the never ending "This War" or "That War" and the next enemy always being the WORST! THING! EVAR!! got tiring. Really liked all of David Gemmell's stuff, though that's a l
 
2013-03-26 02:02:41 PM  
*ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?
 
2013-03-26 02:05:34 PM  

maelstrom0370: So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?


Read thru Storm of Swords, then wait and see if the miserable piece of sh*t bothers to finish before going further.  The nest 2 drag badly, no sense fighting through them if the fat f*ck strokes out.
 
2013-03-26 02:10:57 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


Arya is going to end up as a vengeance driven ninja riding around on a half crazed direwolf the size of a horse. Which sounds pretty damn awesome when you think about it.
 
2013-03-26 02:28:32 PM  

Zoophagous: Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons.


I think poor circulation runs in Jon's family. Dany's not going to care for his cold hands.
 
2013-03-26 02:45:08 PM  

meyerkev: dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.

Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.


Yea, basically this.  Plus lots of repetitive menial tasks(justifiable for Arya given what she's doing, but still...).  We don't need to see Arya become a woman day by day, we need a montage.  And Syrio lives.
 
2013-03-26 02:49:30 PM  
To quote Peter Dinklage: Nerd glaze.
 
2013-03-26 02:54:09 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...

The Bridge of Birds

by Barry Hughart.  It's only one 200-250 page book and rather light (YA level with a dash of raunchy) reading, with some predictable twists and running gags that don't always work.  At times the hyperbole can take on a cartoony feel, but usually it's surprisingly entertaining and the characters' reactions are very believable (especially the use of humor as a coping mechanism in the face of tragedy).  I found the weaknesses quite forgivable and despite them the story feels more epic than fantasy series several times its length.

There are sequels and when you're done you'll soooooo be tempted to pick them up.  They're not disasters but compared to BoB they're disappointingly mediocre.
 
2013-03-26 02:57:28 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...


check out joe abercrombie
 
2013-03-26 03:03:39 PM  

Techhell: Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside.


Series is done. 95% of all plot points resolved. Overcome your issues and give it a proper readthrough.
 
2013-03-26 03:09:56 PM  

maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?


If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.
 
2013-03-26 03:14:21 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?

If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.


This.

Butcher isn't the greatest writer on the face of the planet but he sure writes entertaining stories. I absolutely love the character of Harry Dresden. The Codex Alera are pretty good too, considering he wrote them on a dare.
 
2013-03-26 03:23:03 PM  

bhcompy: meyerkev: dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.

Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.

Yea, basically this.  Plus lots of repetitive menial tasks(justifiable for Arya given what she's doing, but still...).  We don't need to see Arya become a woman day by day, we need a montage.  And Syrio lives.


i would suggest that while Sanderson made Matt even funnier then Jordan, the resolution of those storylines would have come when they did, Sanderson or not. Books 12/13/14 remember were originally supposed to be one book (because Jordan realized he didn;t have time to bust out 2 or 3 more). So he left the notes and left the epilogue.

Sanderson didn't hurt obviously, yet IMO you can;t give credit to Sanderson for saying "Well, I am tired of this crap and galldarnitall i will resolve these storylines whether anyone likes it or not". Jordan was getting there.

YMMV on whether it should have taaken him that long to get there though of course.

/personally think books 7-8 could have been one book
//11-13 are nothing but plot point resolutions
///14, the finale, is awesome
 
2013-03-26 03:25:46 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?

If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.


I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about
 
2013-03-26 03:31:09 PM  

King of the bees: The Codex Alera are pretty good too, considering he wrote them on a dare.


Thought that was a Dresden files antecdote.

*off to teh googles*

And I was wrong, you are right good sir.  (That's a neat little interview from a few years ago i linked to)
 
2013-03-26 03:38:18 PM  

maelstrom0370: *snip*

I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about


This I would like to know about. I roam around the forums on his website every few months to see what's up but I haven't seen anything new. I figured he'd just put more focus back into Dresden now that he's wrapped up Alera.

Also, thanks for the link Jim, I'll take a look at that.
 
2013-03-26 03:42:26 PM  

Egoy3k: Arya is going to end up as a vengeance driven ninja riding around on a half crazed direwolf the size of a horse. Which sounds pretty damn awesome when you think about it.


I'm in


Maybe just maybe she can ride it to Winterfell!
 
2013-03-26 03:44:34 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...


There is always the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett which should be required reading for all fantasy readers IMO.

The Memory Sorrow and Thorn trilogy by Tad Williams is predictable but still fun.

I might get blasted on fark for recommending the Chronicles of the Shadow War trilogy by Chris Claremont and George Lucas but I will anyway. I enjoyed the way that magic was used in the series. Magic had a strict set of rules rather than mere handwaving.
 
2013-03-26 03:49:10 PM  

King of the bees: maelstrom0370: *snip*

I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about

This I would like to know about. I roam around the forums on his website every few months to see what's up but I haven't seen anything new. I figured he'd just put more focus back into Dresden now that he's wrapped up Alera.

Also, thanks for the link Jim, I'll take a look at that.


Just looked it up. It's a steam punk series called The Cinder Spires. The first book is The Aeronaut's Windlass. Got it from a Facebook fan page and they're usually pretty accurate about all things Jim.
 
2013-03-26 03:57:43 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: Egoy3k: Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.

THIS.
I gave up on fantasy a few decades ago. Loved it as a teen but after plowing through tolkien, zelazny, moorcock, and maybe a few others whose names escape me at the moment I found the writing of most fantasy authors to be pretty awful. But I do like a good sprawling read. I am the type of person who, when turning the last page of a good novel is genuinely sad to be at the end, and wishing there was more.
Then I found out about this GoT series being made into a series by hbo  and figured, why not? And quite frankly, I found the books to be quite fulfilling and enthralling. Yes I was thrown a bit by book four but I still enjoyed it. I love the sprawl of these books (it would be disingenuous of me to think otherwise though), I enjoy the uncertainty of any given characters future, and I am very glad that GRRM is putting this stuff out there for our entertainment.
And ...


Malazan (Erikson), anything by Kay, Prince of Nothing (Bakker).. A good start for you.

Lynch and Rothfuss are good as well, but easier reads.  More adultlike than Dragonlance, but less refined than Bakker, Erikson, or Martin
 
2013-03-26 05:05:05 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.
 
2013-03-26 05:12:01 PM  

FuManchu7: redmond24: Well the series isn't over yet. The final book in the series is or was supposed to be called 'A Time for Wolves'.

Whats that quote...the arc of history bends towards justice?

A quick search indicated the final title will be A Dream of Spring.  Given the path of the books I've read so far, I imagine few will get a happy ending.  The "final" king may just be the last of the nobility left alive in the entire realm.


It was at one point titled A Time for Wolves but was changed because it probably gave too much hope.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68145-a-time-for-wolves-w as -a-great-title/
 
2013-03-26 05:26:41 PM  
I humbly add the following to the book-spoilers-versus-TV-spoilers debate:

"Rage of Thrones," by Axis of Awesome

Spoilers ahead...

The book was better!
It's "Joffrey," not "Jeffrey!"
 
2013-03-26 05:56:40 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


if/ when Jon Snow shows up hale and healthy in the next Song of Lamprey Pies novel, then we'll know how it ends.

/With Mary Sue Targaryen and her male equivalent Jon "I am stupid" Snow ruling the world.
/ Stannis has a bigger stick up his ass than Ned did, and he's still king of the (alive) assholes. can't explain that!
 
2013-03-26 06:04:29 PM  

legion_of_doo: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.

if/ when Jon Snow shows up hale and healthy in the next Song of Lamprey Pies novel, then we'll know how it ends.

/With Mary Sue Targaryen and her male equivalent Jon "I am stupid" Snow ruling the world.
/ Stannis has a bigger stick up his ass than Ned did, and he's still king of the (alive) assholes. can't explain that!


And even if we "know"  I won't care, because GRRM crafts an enjoyable tale.
 
2013-03-26 06:17:36 PM  

Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.


Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.
 
2013-03-26 06:30:01 PM  

maelstrom0370: So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?
Love medieval fantasy for the most part. Never got into Wheel of Time, made it about 3 or 4 books into Sword of Truth, loved Raymond Feist up to a point. When he killed everyone off and asked us to follow their children/grandchildren, I gave up. That and the never ending "This War" or "That War" and the next enemy always being the WORST! THING! EVAR!! got tiring. Really liked all of David Gemmell's stuff, though that's a l


if you say you like fantasy, you must read them and have an opinion about them because they are important in the genre.

beyond that, it's all a matter of taste, really. I think the books are overrated, and HBO has done a fine job (with GRRM) in editing down the better parts of the series. others prefer the books.

everyone doesn't have to like everything, however.

/I wonder if Dany knows where whores go. perhaps to hang out with Xaro Xhoan Daxos!
 
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