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(Newsweek)   Nerds, start your boners: Game of Thrones season 3 is even better than the first two seasons   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 216
    More: Spiffy, Game of Thrones, HBO, D.B. Weiss, David Benioff, collective consciousness, Jon Snow, Lena Headey, Emilia Clarke  
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7589 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Mar 2013 at 9:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-25 05:48:15 PM  
this is relevant to my interests.
 
2013-03-25 05:51:18 PM  
Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.
 
2013-03-25 06:05:17 PM  

exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.


What he said.
 
2013-03-25 06:50:25 PM  
I'm just looking forward to Emilia Clarke's initial thread comments.
 
2013-03-25 07:41:43 PM  
Good, because Season 2 was boring as hell, not counting the battle episode.
 
2013-03-25 09:28:41 PM  
 
2013-03-25 09:35:19 PM  
Well good cause I can't wait till the years when all the major characters ride around on boats or disappear entirely.
 
2013-03-25 09:44:30 PM  
There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.
 
2013-03-25 09:52:10 PM  
I hope half the main characters don't up and suddenly die in this season.
 
2013-03-25 09:52:53 PM  
Definitely looking forward to Dianna Rigg as the Queen of Thorns.
 
2013-03-25 09:53:36 PM  

Kyro: I hope half the main characters don't up and suddenly die in this season.


You're watching the wrong show for that.
 
2013-03-25 09:57:02 PM  
Eh, nose missing, a scar on the face... same thing.
 
2013-03-25 09:59:43 PM  
Looking forward to it.

I preferred Feast of Crows myself. The "And then they break" story did it for me.

"The war of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.
"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war though. That it was."
 
2013-03-25 10:00:18 PM  
Feast For*
 
2013-03-25 10:03:08 PM  

Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.


Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.
 
2013-03-25 10:04:41 PM  
Because of all ya'lls over-enthusiastic gushing over book three in a thread last week, I read book three this weekend and I'm glad I did. I got a good feel for his writing style and was able to pretty much pick up where season two left off. Oddly enough, afterwards I didn't really feel compelled to continue and was just as happy reading plot summaries on wiki for 4 and 5.
 
2013-03-25 10:05:55 PM  

Confabulat: Well good cause I can't wait till the years when all the major characters ride around on boats or disappear entirely.


This. Sooooo this.
 
2013-03-25 10:06:38 PM  

big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.


Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.
 
2013-03-25 10:07:01 PM  

big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.


Looks like TRW is going to be episode nine actually, according to the episode titles.

Given that 1-9 was Ned getting whacked and 2-9 was Blackwater, this makes sense.
 
2013-03-25 10:10:21 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


For WOT, pick it back up at Book 11 (though continue to skip Egwene).  11's where a whole bunch of plot points get resolved, and then 12 and 13 build up to 14.

/And never, ever read Book 10.  Total Waste.
//"Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?"  Only useful moment in the whole stupid book.
 
2013-03-25 10:10:41 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*


/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.



Are you sure you're not talking about book 4? From what I remember book 3 focused on the already established primary characters for the most part.

/season 1 was near perfect.
//season 2 not so much.
 
2013-03-25 10:11:36 PM  
Do they give Danyres more reasons to get naked?
 
2013-03-25 10:12:50 PM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.   The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.


Given that there are a lot of people who haven't read the book, I'm calling for "hints only."  Bolded is perfect. Those who have read the books know exactly what he's talking about, those who wanting to be spoiled can Google, and those who haven't are still clueless.
 
2013-03-25 10:12:54 PM  

Echidnaguy: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Looks like TRW is going to be episode nine actually, according to the episode titles.

Given that 1-9 was Ned getting whacked and 2-9 was Blackwater, this makes sense.




Unless he's talking about the other wedding.
 
2013-03-25 10:14:03 PM  
Also, this is The Mountain...

This is NOT The Mountain...

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-25 10:16:42 PM  
This is The Mountain...

www.conanstevens.com
 
2013-03-25 10:19:27 PM  

meyerkev: For WOT, pick it back up at Book 11 (though continue to skip Elayne and Nyneave). 11's where a whole bunch of plot points get resolved, and then 12 and 13 build up to 14.

/And never, ever read Book 10. Total Waste.
//"Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?" Only useful moment in the whole stupid book.


Fixed
 
2013-03-25 10:23:35 PM  

Outtaphase: Tyrion Slaps Joffrey For 10 Minutes To Achilles Last Stand


That made my day!
 
2013-03-25 10:27:12 PM  

Zarquon's Flat Tire: meyerkev: For WOT, pick it back up at Book 11 (though continue to skip Elayne and Nyneave and Perrin until 13 (and even then, he's iffy)). 11's where a whole bunch of plot points get resolved, and then 12 and 13 build up to 14.

/And never, ever read Book 10. Total Waste.
//"Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?" Only useful moment in the whole stupid book.

Fixed


Fixed again, now that I think back.
 
2013-03-25 10:27:59 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Then you should read the Malazan Book of the Fallen series.  10 excellent books(same size as WoT or ASoIaF) in about a decade.  Series done, complete.
 
2013-03-25 10:32:22 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Martin regularly writes himself into corners and then struggles to figure out what to do with the characters that are languishing.  It's a lot easier to simply create new characters and storylines.
 
2013-03-25 10:34:59 PM  
I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.
 
2013-03-25 10:38:31 PM  

meyerkev: God Is My Co-Pirate: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.   The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Given that there are a lot of people who haven't read the book, I'm calling for "hints only."  Bolded is perfect. Those who have read the books know exactly what he's talking about, those who wanting to be spoiled can Google, and those who haven't are still clueless.


fark off.

I'm not waiting 20 years for Captain 'buggered deadline' to finish his series so I can talk about it in a thread on the internet. The books have been out for years and years yet some how its ok for Mr. neckbeard butt farker to wander into a thread and biatch that i spoiled it?

If you havent read game of thrones yet and you don't want it to be spoiled and you are reading a game of thrones thread on the internet at this moment just go mangle your genitals with power tools now. Nobody needs people like you in the world. Honest to god anyone wandering in here while still wanting the surprise that comes with first time reading i suggest you go have an enema of molten lead. Do it now.
 
2013-03-25 10:42:11 PM  

Echidnaguy: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Looks like TRW is going to be episode nine actually, according to the episode titles.

Given that 1-9 was Ned getting whacked and 2-9 was Blackwater, this makes sense.


TRW will blow people's minds if they haven't read the books. I was shocked.

SoS is best of the series.
 
2013-03-25 10:44:31 PM  

Hickory-smoked: I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.


The book doesn't goes into how Robb and Jeyne met, except in recollection.  He just suddenly shows up with her like she was war booty or something.  I think the writers made a call that this made Robb look impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic, which is what they don't want given what happens to him shortly afterwards.
 
2013-03-25 10:44:47 PM  
I still haven't watched season 2
 
2013-03-25 11:00:01 PM  

mikefinch: meyerkev: God Is My Co-Pirate: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.   The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Given that there are a lot of people who haven't read the book, I'm calling for "hints only."  Bolded is perfect. Those who have read the books know exactly what he's talking about, those who wanting to be spoiled can Google, and those who haven't are still clueless.

fark off.

I'm not waiting 20 years for Captain 'buggered deadline' to finish his series so I can talk about it in a thread on the internet. The books have been out for years and years yet some how its ok for Mr. neckbeard butt farker to wander into a thread and biatch that i spoiled it?

If you havent read game of thrones yet and you don't want it to be spoiled and you are reading a game of thrones thread on the internet at this moment just go mangle your genitals with power tools now. Nobody needs people like you in the world. Honest to god anyone wandering in here while still wanting the surprise that comes with first time reading i suggest you go have an enema of molten lead. Do it now.


Edward Norton is Brad Pitt (Tyler Durdon)  in Fight club and Snape kills Dumbeldore.
 
2013-03-25 11:01:45 PM  
I'm with you on this, we should be able to speak freely.
Ironically, I read SOS lasst week because of all the hushed "in-speaking" about the red wedding.
 
2013-03-25 11:13:12 PM  
Is this the season Jon Snow knows something? Cause I'm down for that. I read all these books as one big novel on my kindle so I have no idea what is in which book. All I know is for about 100 pages Jon Snow has a really awesome road trip with his young eager redhead traveling companion. I would mind see some of that in HD.

Jon Snow is one of the few people that has some actual happiness in GoT. It's not longed lived and doesn't end well, but for a few hundred pages life doesn't suck.
 
2013-03-25 11:14:49 PM  
I'm looking forward to and dreading this season at the same time.  TRW nearly made me stop reading the series completely, I was just so devastated.  But then, of course, the wedding after that made up for everything.  I've read that part many, many times now.
 
2013-03-25 11:16:42 PM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now? I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.


Here's my personal spoiler guide:

Threads about the Show: No spoilers about stuff that hasn't aired yet.  Once it's aired, discuss. Optional: spoiler warning for the first week or so.  I even try to avoid saying stuff like "Can't Wait till X fights Y!" since it tells people that X and Y are not in danger, at least until they meet.

Threads about the Books: Anything goes.

It's common courtesy.
 
2013-03-25 11:18:05 PM  

fozziewazzi: Hickory-smoked: I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.

The book doesn't goes into how Robb and Jeyne met, except in recollection.  He just suddenly shows up with her like she was war booty or something.  I think the writers made a call that this made Robb look impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic, which is what they don't want given what happens to him shortly afterwards.


I still think they could have written it better. Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character. The change in the tv series makes it seem like he was just some young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking. And it ultimately underscores Tywin's role in all of it unless they still tie that together.

My other issues with season 2 were the underscoring of Tyrion's role in he battle, Catlyn letting Jamie go for no reason, and Arya's role in her escape reduced.
 
2013-03-25 11:18:21 PM  

mikefinch: meyerkev: God Is My Co-Pirate: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.   The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Given that there are a lot of people who haven't read the book, I'm calling for "hints only."  Bolded is perfect. Those who have read the books know exactly what he's talking about, those who wanting to be spoiled can Google, and those who haven't are still clueless.

fark off.

I'm not waiting 20 years for Captain 'buggered deadline' to finish his series so I can talk about it in a thread on the internet. The books have been out for years and years yet some how its ok for Mr. neckbeard butt farker to wander into a thread and biatch that i spoiled it?

If you havent read game of thrones yet and you don't want it to be spoiled and you are reading a game of thrones thread on the internet at this moment just go mangle your genitals with power tools now. Nobody needs people like you in the world. Honest to god anyone wandering in here while still wanting the surprise that comes with first time reading i suggest you go have an enema of molten lead. Do it now.


Here's the rub - this thread is about GoT the TV series, not GoT the book series.  Therefore things from the books that would spoil the TV series should be left out of discussion.  Go start a thread about the books if you want to spoil other stuff.
 
2013-03-25 11:20:16 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Is this the season Jon Snow knows something? Cause I'm down for that. I read all these books as one big novel on my kindle so I have no idea what is in which book. All I know is for about 100 pages Jon Snow has a really awesome road trip with his young eager redhead traveling companion. I would mind see some of that in HD.

Jon Snow is one of the few people that has some actual happiness in GoT. It's not longed lived and doesn't end well, but for a few hundred pages life doesn't suck.


After finishing all the current books, I imagine that something like this went through George RR Martin's head:

"Jon loves Ygritte and so he might have been truly happy. Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what the story books say. And so I think no man in a century will suffer as greatly as he will."
 
2013-03-25 11:22:43 PM  
Dinklage is on Daily Show now.
 
2013-03-25 11:32:25 PM  
So how grotesque will Joff's choking death be?  I'm hoping its pretty graphic.
 
2013-03-25 11:43:15 PM  
Do any of you kindly Fakers have any idea if and when Season 3 will be available on Amazon Prime?

/Just signed up this week, so I'm still quite the n00b.
//Thanks in advance.
 
2013-03-25 11:44:04 PM  

jocutus: God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now? I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Here's my personal spoiler guide:

Threads about the Show: No spoilers about stuff that hasn't aired yet.  Once it's aired, discuss. Optional: spoiler warning for the first week or so.  I even try to avoid saying stuff like "Can't Wait till X fights Y!" since it tells people that X and Y are not in danger, at least until they meet.

Threads about the Books: Anything goes.

It's common courtesy.


I already saw the first episode of Season 3 at a special event put on by HBO. Free screening, free food, and free iPhone cases w/ the standards of all the main houses.

The few spoilers I'll give: The first episode isn't that exciting. It's basically everyone waking up and trying to recover from the finale.

/Also, giants!
//And dragons. Big, fishy, wet dragons...
///And nipples...or lack thereof.
////And lots of orphans
//Will stop now before I get shot.
//Slashies!
 
2013-03-25 11:47:44 PM  

Girion47: So how grotesque will Joff's choking death be?  I'm hoping its pretty graphic.


digging his nails into his throat as his face turns black. That would rule.
and then he wets himself  ~fin~
 
2013-03-26 12:06:32 AM  
Better based ob what criterion? Number of boobs shown?
 
2013-03-26 12:10:30 AM  

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Here's the rub - this thread is about GoT the TV series, not GoT the book series. Therefore things from the books that would spoil the TV series should be left out of discussion. Go start a thread about the books if you want to spoil other stuff.


Its the same story. Like as in the show has been spoiled for years now. Seriously -- everyone now knows its based off a book thats been out for awhile. If you dont want spoilers stay out of discussion threads.

The TV show is based off the books -- That asshole GRRM spoiled the show for me freaking ages ago. If you want to watch the show watch the show -- don't wander your idiot ass around the internet complaining in threads that you shouldn't be in if you really wanted to keep it a surprise.

Besides -- to spoil the story it would have to be going somewhere.

Teufelaffe: "Jon loves Ygritte and so he might have been truly happy. Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what the story books say. And so I think no man in a century will suffer as greatly as he will."


More like "Goddamnit what have i gotten myself into now? Well i guess i can kill her off and eventually make Jon act like he hasn't learned a damn thing over the last 4 books...." Grrm makes people suffer not because he likes to... But because it seems to be the only way he can make the story compelling.  He's great at giving his readers that slight hint of hope -- thats what draws you -- the want for something better for these characters... But Grrm doesn't have anything better for these characters.

Why? The same reason LOST had a shiatty ending. Write the ending first. dont get 5 books or seasons in and then admit you got befuddled after the second episode.

In grrms own words: I had no idea it would go so 'Narnia' That should give you a clue as to how well put together the GoT story line is. Not very.
 
2013-03-26 12:11:08 AM  
An army of TV critics get to see the first 4 episodes of season 3, and not one of them has the courtesy to UL them to P2P.

Remind me again why we let TV critics live.
 
2013-03-26 12:17:44 AM  
I just want to know when Cersei and Daenerys are going to fark.
 
2013-03-26 12:21:51 AM  
LectertheChef: I just want to know when Cerseiand Sansa and Daenerys are going to fark.

fixed for me...
 
2013-03-26 12:31:28 AM  

mikefinch: LectertheChef: I just want to know when Cerseiand Sansa and Daenerys are going to fark.

fixed for me...


I don't know, Sansa's a bit too submissive. With Cersei and Daenerys, there'd be a lot more potential for rough stuff, as they fight for dominance. Wrestling, slapping, pulling hair, tearing clothes. Sansa'd probably just sit in a corner masturbating until the other two determined who was the top. Though if you're going more the sapphic orgy route, you should also include Doreah, the woman who taught Daenerys how to fark.
 
2013-03-26 12:33:18 AM  
LectertheChef:

Good, thorough analysis.  You've convinced me with your argument.
 
2013-03-26 12:39:12 AM  
Is Book 3 where GRRM becomes obsessed with the See You Next Tuesday word or derivations thereof, or is that Book 4?
 
2013-03-26 12:43:58 AM  
LectertheChef:

Idk - I always figured the blondes would be fiery and angry and they would toss her back and forth laughing while she winced and whimpered at their torments...  Like they would just go at each other and let little submissive sansa touch herself in the corner.  Yeah right. They would look at her like a toy. I like your direction -- i just don't think they would let her off so easy.

\Lots of whimpering...
\\Some tying up for sure...
 
2013-03-26 01:16:15 AM  

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character.


I thought Robb married her because Starks are dumbasses. Clearly, Robb is Ned's dumbass son.

And for all the yammer about who Jon Snow's parents are... "You know nothing, Jon Snow". I rest my case.

/you know why I cheer for the Lannisters, besides incest being best? The Starks are dumbasses, and Mary Sue Targaryen is an annoying biatch.
 
2013-03-26 01:21:11 AM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


I think you're confusing Book 4 with Book 3. There are only two new POV characters in Book 3, Jamie and Sam, both of whom were established in Book 1.

I would agree that the problem with Book 4 -- which lead to it being split into two books -- was the unnecessary inclusions of characters from Dorne and the Iron Islands, as well as Brienne's rather uninteresting POV chapters taking up about 17% of the book. All of this could have happened of screen.
 
2013-03-26 01:22:59 AM  

legion_of_doo: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character.

I thought Robb married her because Starks are dumbasses. Clearly, Robb is Ned's dumbass son.

And for all the yammer about who Jon Snow's parents are... "You know nothing, Jon Snow". I rest my case.

/you know why I cheer for the Lannisters, besides incest being best? The Starks are dumbasses, and Mary Sue Targaryen is an annoying biatch.


Rob marry's out of love. In the game of thrones you don't marry for love -- you marry to gain a claim on land. The Starks just don't understand how the game of thrones is played.
 
2013-03-26 01:26:41 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.


The statute of limitations has expired. I've seen interviews with the cast where they've all but revealed what happens and discussing it vis-a-vis.

And given what the season's likely cliffhanger will be, I expect a lot of the people who didn't read the books to just give in and lookup what happens next.
 
2013-03-26 01:28:49 AM  

nocturnal001: Echidnaguy: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Looks like TRW is going to be episode nine actually, according to the episode titles.

Given that 1-9 was Ned getting whacked and 2-9 was Blackwater, this makes sense.

TRW will blow people's minds if they haven't read the books. I was shocked.

SoS is best of the series.


Yup, I got the anticipated "hmm...I'm not sure this is going to end well" and then the OMFG!!! texts from a friend who is reading SoS right now. And I'll be watching the series with another friend who decided to not to read the books until after seeing the show. I love living vicariously through the unspoiled.
 
2013-03-26 01:36:16 AM  

legion_of_doo: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character.

I thought Robb married her because Starks are dumbasses. Clearly, Robb is Ned's dumbass son.

And for all the yammer about who Jon Snow's parents are... "You know nothing, Jon Snow". I rest my case.

/you know why I cheer for the Lannisters, besides incest being best? The Starks are dumbasses, and Mary Sue Targaryen is an annoying biatch.


I always thought the Starks were there to show what happens when you try to apply honor to politics, they just get ran over.  I saw it as a parallel to why modern politicians are all scumbags.

Of course you'd rather have Ned in charge, but the sociopaths and egotists chewed him up, spit him out, and install a sadist because it suits their needs the best.  Meanwhile some other groups of narcisists aren't happy that some jackoff is occupying the position they should be in becuase they are obviously god's gift to the world. They then decide to go kill thousands of lives and burn half the kingdom to the ground because they DESERVE to fark with everyone's lives for their own benefit.  Just farking with the lives of the people in their corner of the kingdom isn't good enough for such enlightened gods like themselves.
 
2013-03-26 02:29:04 AM  

jocutus: God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now? I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Here's my personal spoiler guide:

Threads about the Show: No spoilers about stuff that hasn't aired yet.  Once it's aired, discuss. Optional: spoiler warning for the first week or so.  I even try to avoid saying stuff like "Can't Wait till X fights Y!" since it tells people that X and Y are not in danger, at least until they meet.

Threads about the Books: Anything goes.

It's common courtesy.


Thanks for your imposition of rules on what we may and may not talk about, friend. Please accept my humble "f*ck yourself" in gratitude.
 
2013-03-26 02:44:39 AM  
Are people really complaining about spoilers in a thread about a show that has already been recorded, edited, interviewed to death and will debut in a week?

Did the thought  "I want to be surprised so I shall not click on that link" evar appear in your brain about the content of that link before you clicked on it?

/dumbasses
 
2013-03-26 02:45:07 AM  

FuManchu7: legion_of_doo: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character.

I thought Robb married her because Starks are dumbasses. Clearly, Robb is Ned's dumbass son.

And for all the yammer about who Jon Snow's parents are... "You know nothing, Jon Snow". I rest my case.

/you know why I cheer for the Lannisters, besides incest being best? The Starks are dumbasses, and Mary Sue Targaryen is an annoying biatch.

I always thought the Starks were there to show what happens when you try to apply honor to politics, they just get ran over.  I saw it as a parallel to why modern politicians are all scumbags.

Of course you'd rather have Ned in charge, but the sociopaths and egotists chewed him up, spit him out, and install a sadist because it suits their needs the best.  Meanwhile some other groups of narcisists aren't happy that some jackoff is occupying the position they should be in becuase they are obviously god's gift to the world. They then decide to go kill thousands of lives and burn half the kingdom to the ground because they DESERVE to fark with everyone's lives for their own benefit.  Just farking with the lives of the people in their corner of the kingdom isn't good enough for such enlightened gods like themselves.


Well the series isn't over yet. The final book in the series is or was supposed to be called 'A Time for Wolves'.

Whats that quote...the arc of history bends towards justice?
 
2013-03-26 02:59:38 AM  

redmond24: Well the series isn't over yet. The final book in the series is or was supposed to be called 'A Time for Wolves'.

Whats that quote...the arc of history bends towards justice?


A quick search indicated the final title will be A Dream of Spring.  Given the path of the books I've read so far, I imagine few will get a happy ending.  The "final" king may just be the last of the nobility left alive in the entire realm.
 
2013-03-26 04:10:14 AM  

FuManchu7: redmond24: Well the series isn't over yet. The final book in the series is or was supposed to be called 'A Time for Wolves'.

Whats that quote...the arc of history bends towards justice?

A quick search indicated the final title will be A Dream of Spring.  Given the path of the books I've read so far, I imagine few will get a happy ending.  The "final" king may just be the last of the nobility left alive in the entire realm.


Given the paths of the books so far I wonder if any of the original characters will live to the end.
 
Skr
2013-03-26 04:12:48 AM  
Man I was worried the show was going to choke this season.
 
2013-03-26 05:18:05 AM  

FuManchu7: A quick search indicated the final title will be A Dream of Spring. Given the path of the books I've read so far, I imagine few will get a happy ending. The "final" king may just be the last of the nobility left alive in the entire realm.


The last book will be titled:

GRRM choked to death today on a large smoked ham. Experts believe an only slightly chewed mass of ham became lodged in the authors throat during his vigorous love making to said large smoked ham. His epic work "A Song of Ice and Fire" will go unfinished as the partial manuscript found under his bloated corpse consisted of little other than graphic descriptions of sex at and a Food Network tv schedule.
 
2013-03-26 05:45:53 AM  
 
2013-03-26 06:59:56 AM  
MEH

I'm edgy because I kill off main characters.

Only thing I like about this show is the ample amounts of boobage.
 
2013-03-26 07:05:42 AM  

fozziewazzi: Hickory-smoked: I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.

The book doesn't goes into how Robb and Jeyne met, except in recollection.  He just suddenly shows up with her like she was war booty or something.  I think the writers made a call that this made Robb look impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic, which is what they don't want given what happens to him shortly afterwards.


I suspect you're correct on the reasoning and, given the show has a different audience, I won't second guess the decision too much.

Still, in the context of the book, I felt those implied flaws humanized Robb a bit.  In a world populated largely with deeply damaged (in a fairly believable way) people, his character felt a little two dimensional by comparison.  Granted, he was a secondary character, so dwelling on his faults would have left little time to establish any positive attributes.
 
2013-03-26 07:09:06 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't season 3 only the first half of Storm of Swords? Depending on where the leave it off it could be an excellent season or completely terrible but leading up to a season 4 that is concentrated awesome.
 
2013-03-26 07:18:16 AM  

Egoy3k: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't season 3 only the first half of Storm of Swords? Depending on where the leave it off it could be an excellent season or completely terrible but leading up to a season 4 that is concentrated awesome.


That's what I heard.  May just wait for the last episode, then pick it up again in Season 4.
 
2013-03-26 07:36:14 AM  

FuManchu7: I always thought the Starks were there to show what happens when you try to apply honor to politics, they just get ran over. I saw it as a parallel to why modern politicians are all scumbags.


I've maintained that Vlad the Impaler would've been TRW'ed by GRRM halfway into the first book out of spite, which goes to show that GRRM is more "realistic" than. . . uh. . . reality?

Sure Vlad was eventually assassinated (three decades after his first reign), but he was given an epic shiat hand from the word go and still went a LOT farther IRL than any Stark in Westeros.  He took on the hostile incumbent nobility (sound familiar?) and survived exile (sound familiar?), betrayal (sound familiar?) and invasion (sound effin' familiar yet?). . . oh yeah, all while holding off the VASTLY stronger Ottoman Empire from his backwater kingdom (oh wait shiat not even the Starks had to deal with that).  He even ruled as King for a few years -- how's that for winning a "Game of Thrones"?  His name was subjected to such an intense and sustained smear campaign that it's associated with fictional horror to this day.  His enemies loathed him.

The moral of the story is that the Starks don't lose because they're honorable; they lose because they're dumb -- and what grinds my gears is that GRRM doesn't really make a strong distinction between the two.  That's what "edgy" means these days.  GRRM's on the same wavelength as Spaceballs here.  Vlad was ruthless but he was also an educated populist who risked and eventually lost his life protecting his kingdom from a political situation so hostile it'd made GRRM cream his pants.  Second, unlike SoIaF, reality does in fact resolve.  Vlad did not spend his adulthood touring the countryside; when he returned from exile he opened an epic can of wupass on the boyars.  Joffrey wouldn't have survived Vlad's wrath any longer than the time it would've taken him to cross the room and put a sword through his head.  And somehow Tyrion is cool because he slapped the King?
 
2013-03-26 07:57:48 AM  

Egoy3k: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't season 3 only the first half of Storm of Swords? Depending on where the leave it off it could be an excellent season or completely terrible but leading up to a season 4 that is concentrated awesome.


i would predict the seasons will end with respective weddings.
 
2013-03-26 07:59:58 AM  
Finally started watching this and I'm halfway through season 2 after starting it on Saturday.  I have no clue how you guys can only do one episode a week.  I feel like I'll have to wait til the season's over otherwise I'll go mad in between episodes.  Season 2 is so much better than 1.
 
2013-03-26 08:01:28 AM  

angrycrank: nocturnal001: Echidnaguy: big_pth: There are several scenes parts of ASOS that SHOULD be jaw dropping.  The Plaza of Pride.  The duel between a dog and a lightning lord, the duel between a stubborn wench and a man in chains, the snake vaulting the mountain.  the king of giants in a tunnel of ice.  And of course, what should be the final scene of season 4.

Looks like TRW is going to be episode nine actually, according to the episode titles.

Given that 1-9 was Ned getting whacked and 2-9 was Blackwater, this makes sense.

TRW will blow people's minds if they haven't read the books. I was shocked.

SoS is best of the series.

Yup, I got the anticipated "hmm...I'm not sure this is going to end well" and then the OMFG!!! texts from a friend who is reading SoS right now. And I'll be watching the series with another friend who decided to not to read the books until after seeing the show. I love living vicariously through the unspoiled.


It was a tough call for me.  I had not heard much about the series until I started watching season 1.  Finally wound up getting the books but would have been happy either way.
 
2013-03-26 08:02:09 AM  

Father_Jack: Egoy3k: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't season 3 only the first half of Storm of Swords? Depending on where the leave it off it could be an excellent season or completely terrible but leading up to a season 4 that is concentrated awesome.

i would predict the seasons will end with respective weddings.


Yeah if that is how season 4 ends then ends book sales will jump dramatically.
 
2013-03-26 08:04:24 AM  

Egoy3k: Father_Jack: Egoy3k: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't season 3 only the first half of Storm of Swords? Depending on where the leave it off it could be an excellent season or completely terrible but leading up to a season 4 that is concentrated awesome.

i would predict the seasons will end with respective weddings.

Yeah if that is how season 4 ends then ends book sales will jump dramatically.


although, the Wall^s events at the end of SoS are also pretty good place to stop at.

i just wish snow had a better haircut.

and Robb and Theon's northern English accents make me wet. And im not even a woman nor gay.
 
2013-03-26 08:10:33 AM  

jocutus: God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now? I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season.

Here's my personal spoiler guide:

Threads about the Show: No spoilers about stuff that hasn't aired yet.  Once it's aired, discuss. Optional: spoiler warning for the first week or so.  I even try to avoid saying stuff like "Can't Wait till X fights Y!" since it tells people that X and Y are not in danger, at least until they meet.

Threads about the Books: Anything goes.

It's common courtesy.


What about threads about the show and how it compares to the books?  Because that's what every GOT threads anywhere turns into.
 
2013-03-26 08:13:30 AM  

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: fozziewazzi: Hickory-smoked: I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.

The book doesn't goes into how Robb and Jeyne met, except in recollection.  He just suddenly shows up with her like she was war booty or something.  I think the writers made a call that this made Robb look impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic, which is what they don't want given what happens to him shortly afterwards.

I still think they could have written it better. Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character. The change in the tv series makes it seem like he was just some young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking. And it ultimately underscores Tywin's role in all of it unless they still tie that together.

My other issues with season 2 were the underscoring of Tyrion's role in he battle, Catlyn letting Jamie go for no reason, and Arya's role in her escape reduced.


Yeah I was really disappointed with how PG-13 Arya's character is on the show.
 
2013-03-26 08:13:50 AM  

sirbissel: Eh, nose missing, a scar on the face... same thing.


Goes well with the brown hair and same colored eyes.
 
2013-03-26 08:24:14 AM  
As someone who never read the books but enjoys the hell outta the show, I don't mind the "spoilers". As someone up thread pointed out, they've kinda been around for awhile. Not to mention wiki and teh Google. And every one of my friends have read them and there's usually lots of discussion after an episode about the differences between book and show.
I think the only time knowing a spoiler effected my enjoyment was "He's been dead all along" when I saw 'The 6th Sense' the first time.

/Snape killed Dumbledore
//The woman and her kids are the ghosts
///His cop friend is trying to help him get closure
////Verbal Kent is Kaiser Soze
 
2013-03-26 08:31:18 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season


I'm assuming that will be the season finale since they are only doing half of book 3 this season.
 
2013-03-26 08:33:39 AM  

mikefinch: Besides -- to spoil the story it would have to be going somewhere.


Very much this. I read the first book and I liked it, the second I liked because it still had that "new book series" feeling to it, the third was fine (stop introducing characters only to kill them off already, and we do not need to know the motivation of every single secondary character of you have a 100 of them), book 4 sucked. A lot of people are running around doing nothing, the only people who have a clear goal (beyond "go there, kill that") get 50 pages between them and then we hear that if we want to hear more about the actually interesting people we need to wait years for the next book? No way, screw you GRRM. I am done with your series.

Challenge: pick the 8 most important people in the book and try to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. For bonus points you get to explain what steps they have taken to reach their ultimate goal.

I'll give you a hint on the last part: wandering about doing nothing very much for a few hundred pages and maybe go blind because they drank some drugged milk (apart from Jon Snow and Daenerys the only person who actually does something interesting yet one of the persons we hear least about).
 
2013-03-26 08:55:41 AM  

DerAppie: mikefinch: Besides -- to spoil the story it would have to be going somewhere.

Very much this. I read the first book and I liked it, the second I liked because it still had that "new book series" feeling to it, the third was fine (stop introducing characters only to kill them off already, and we do not need to know the motivation of every single secondary character of you have a 100 of them), book 4 sucked. A lot of people are running around doing nothing, the only people who have a clear goal (beyond "go there, kill that") get 50 pages between them and then we hear that if we want to hear more about the actually interesting people we need to wait years for the next book? No way, screw you GRRM. I am done with your series.

Challenge: pick the 8 most important people in the book and try to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. For bonus points you get to explain what steps they have taken to reach their ultimate goal.

I'll give you a hint on the last part: wandering about doing nothing very much for a few hundred pages and maybe go blind because they drank some drugged milk (apart from Jon Snow and Daenerys the only person who actually does something interesting yet one of the persons we hear least about).


Agreed.  If Martin is smart he'll never finish the series because it'll be a disappointing mess.  I like the world he's created but he needs some serious help with writing and pacing.
 
2013-03-26 09:09:18 AM  

DerAppie: Challenge: pick the 8 most important people in the book and try to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it.


FTFY.  You don't even need to go that far.

SoIaF's most distinctive characteristic is its own undoing; it suffers from waaaaay too much parity (or more accurately, inaction).  It's not the number of characters that cripple it so much as lack of a single meaningful one.  Who's the most important character?  Is it Tyrion?  His "victory" is mostly treading water in a cesspool without drowning or getting overwhelmed by the stench.  Slapping the King may have been emotionally satisfying but it doesn't bring Westeros so much as an inch closer to political stability.  Is it Dany?  She's not even in Westeros.  Is it Jon Snow?  He finally started getting desperate in DoD but he was summarily given GRRM's ol' "this is what happens to sympathetic characters if they get proactive" treatment.  Is it the Stark children?  They've been so excruciatingly passive that even by the end of the fifth book I'd argue the late Ned is still more relevant than all of them combined.  Anyone else?  The reward for playing is getting killed off if you upset GRRM's carefully cultivated balance of power.  After four thousand pages, there's yet to be any sort of victory by anyone that can't be completely undone a couple hundred pages later (the most plausible explanation for why Dany is still alive is her utter irrelevance to Westeros).  Any crypto-bastard that bites it just gets replaced by another crypto-bastard.  Some real-life badass like the aforementioned Vlad, or Hannibal or Subutai, would have a goddamn meteorite snuff him out in a smoking crater of deus ex machina if GRRM couldn't find some other way of killing off the nuisance.  It's like GRRM is severely allergic to closure or something.

It seems inevitable that any doorstop fantasy will be compared to the ultimate predecessor, but while LotR was very much a team effort it had a clear-cut protagonist.  The story got plodding at times but not only did it finish (in record time compared to SoIaF I might add), Frodo never lost his forward momentum for more than a few relatively brief moments.  The journey transformed him from a warm-hearted trust fund baby to a wallowing PTSD wreck, but that was the sacrifice he made to reach the end.
 
2013-03-26 09:30:02 AM  
Little Finger. The answer is always Little Finger. Who drives the plot? Who is the most important character? Who's the only character that is "winning"?

This doesn't bode well for who?
 
2013-03-26 09:34:40 AM  

UtopianDevil: God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season

I'm assuming that will be the season finale since they are only doing half of book 3 this season.


I think that's too near the end of the book though, isn't it?  Because immediately afterwards you get the moon door, which should be the end to season 4.
 
2013-03-26 09:51:21 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Who's the only character that is "winning"?


except he can't get the one "thing" he wants.

sorry only halfway through season two, but he doesn't seem to be winning there.  Then again owning that whore house would be like always winning if it were me.
 
2013-03-26 09:51:51 AM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Ok good, go away then.
 
2013-03-26 10:02:43 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: UtopianDevil: God Is My Co-Pirate: Can we get a ruling on spoilers since the book has been out for, what, 12 years now?  I guess better safe than sorry. I'm looking forward to the black amethysts and pigeon pie myself. Don't know if that'll be in this season

I'm assuming that will be the season finale since they are only doing half of book 3 this season.

I think that's too near the end of the book though, isn't it?  Because immediately afterwards you get the moon door, which should be the end to season 4.


You may be right, it's been a while since I read it. Hmm, wonder what point they will pick to stop the season....
 
2013-03-26 10:04:23 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Little Finger. The answer is always Little Finger. Who drives the plot? Who is the most important character? Who's the only character that is "winning"?

This doesn't bode well for who?


I would include Varys along with littlefinger. they both have far more going on than meets the eye and are sneaky enough to manipulate the events without anyone even knowing that they're the ones pulling the strings.

I'm not sure if littlefinger survives the story but i have a pretty good feeling that Varys will be hanging around when everything shakes out.
 
2013-03-26 10:06:34 AM  
More  Emilia Clarke naked. Make it happen.
 
2013-03-26 10:12:08 AM  

mikefinch: Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Here's the rub - this thread is about GoT the TV series, not GoT the book series. Therefore things from the books that would spoil the TV series should be left out of discussion. Go start a thread about the books if you want to spoil other stuff.

Its the same story. Like as in the show has been spoiled for years now. Seriously -- everyone now knows its based off a book thats been out for awhile. If you dont want spoilers stay out of discussion threads.

The TV show is based off the books -- That asshole GRRM spoiled the show for me freaking ages ago. If you want to watch the show watch the show -- don't wander your idiot ass around the internet complaining in threads that you shouldn't be in if you really wanted to keep it a surprise.

Besides -- to spoil the story it would have to be going somewhere.

Teufelaffe: "Jon loves Ygritte and so he might have been truly happy. Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what the story books say. And so I think no man in a century will suffer as greatly as he will."

More like "Goddamnit what have i gotten myself into now? Well i guess i can kill her off and eventually make Jon act like he hasn't learned a damn thing over the last 4 books...." Grrm makes people suffer not because he likes to... But because it seems to be the only way he can make the story compelling.  He's great at giving his readers that slight hint of hope -- thats what draws you -- the want for something better for these characters... But Grrm doesn't have anything better for these characters.

Why? The same reason LOST had a shiatty ending. Write the ending first. dont get 5 books or seasons in and then admit you got befuddled after the second episode.

In grrms own words: I had no idea it would go so 'Narnia' That should give you a clue as to how well put together the GoT story line is. Not very.


Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something.  Damn, do you even read anything about the show you seem to complain so much about?
 
2013-03-26 10:18:06 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Little Finger. The answer is always Little Finger. Who drives the plot? Who is the most important character? Who's the only character that is "winning"?

This doesn't bode well for who?


Little Finger is winning, yes, but its not a zero sum game in westeros now is it. There are a few people who, by the end of book 5, are clearly winning, and yeah he's one of them. but there are others too. Then there are a number of key characters who's destinys are obscured and its not so easy to say how theyll shaek out, and there are still others who begin to take shape as key facilitators of other characters, and once they fulfill the role theyre being groomed for, theyll probably be killed. And finally there are those who are absolutely freakin' DOOMED.

Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.
 
2013-03-26 10:27:32 AM  

Kimpak: MEH

I'm edgy because I kill off main characters.

Only thing I like about this show is the ample amounts of boobage.


MEH.

I'm edgy because I just throw a bunch of boobs into my show.
 
2013-03-26 10:36:08 AM  

Father_Jack: Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.


And that's just because GRRM screwed the pooch with Arya's story, nothing else.
 
2013-03-26 10:44:23 AM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Not gonna happen!
 
2013-03-26 10:55:06 AM  

bhcompy: Father_Jack: Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.

And that's just because GRRM screwed the pooch with Arya's story, nothing else.


explain yourself. do it. do it now or ill have you on your way to The Wall.
 
2013-03-26 11:03:36 AM  

Bullseyed: More  Emilia Clarke and Lena Headey naked. Make it happen.


FTFY
 
2013-03-26 11:07:41 AM  

dragonchild: SoIaF's most distinctive characteristic is its own undoing; it suffers from waaaaay too much parity (or more accurately, inaction). It's not the number of characters that cripple it so much as lack of a single meaningful one. Who's the most important character? Is it Tyrion? His "victory" is mostly treading water in a cesspool without drowning or getting overwhelmed by the stench. Slapping the King may have been emotionally satisfying but it doesn't bring Westeros so much as an inch closer to political stability. Is it Dany? She's not even in Westeros. Is it Jon Snow? He finally started getting desperate in DoD but he was summarily given GRRM's ol' "this is what happens to sympathetic characters if they get proactive" treatment. Is it the Stark children? They've been so excruciatingly passive that even by the end of the fifth book I'd argue the late Ned is still more relevant than all of them combined. Anyone else? The reward for playing is getting killed off if you upset GRRM's carefully cultivated balance of power. After four thousand pages, there's yet to be any sort of victory by anyone that can't be completely undone a couple hundred pages later (the most plausible explanation for why Dany is still alive is her utter irrelevance to Westeros). Any crypto-bastard that bites it just gets replaced by another crypto-bastard. Some real-life badass like the aforementioned Vlad, or Hannibal or Subutai, would have a goddamn meteorite snuff him out in a smoking crater of deus ex machina if GRRM couldn't find some other way of killing off the nuisance. It's like GRRM is severely allergic to closure or something.


This is all very true, but I'd love to see people decide who is important and who is not, and then debate it amongst each other by comparing all the trivial things their favourite has done so far. I conquered Winterfell! I orchestrated the TRW! But I have dragons! Ah, but I killed someone, freed a hostage, cost my son his victory because I got worried about one of my kids, got killed, got resurrected and am now an irrelevant side character with far too much back story.

Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.
 
2013-03-26 11:13:16 AM  

Nick Spiceyweiner: Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something.


This was also supposed to have been a trilogy.  Just sayin'.

Father_Jack: Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them.


That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but I'm curious as to how this would happen without being ridiculous.  Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.  OK, seriously, the noble families have been shown to squabble to such a self-destructive extent that the most plausible reaction they'd have to any supernatural threat is a mass exodus out of Westeros, buying favors with their ill-gotten wealth along the way, until the tattered victims of their civil war are left to deal with essentially a Land of the Dead crapsack world.  Not only is there zero evidence Dany is punching her ticket to Westeros anytime soon, even if she did arrive there's absolutely no reason for Tyrion to trust what he would see as a power-hungry carpetbagger.  There hasn't been any sort of "Escape from the Death Star" sequence to firmly establish any sort of unity amongst the surviving sympathetic characters; they've spent much of the epic separated from each other.  If GRRM ever had some sort of grand epic finale in mind, he's already long missed the chance to build up to it.  The story desperately needs some Jedi or Ring-bearer to rally around and Dany is the most likely candidate by default (if only because of her dragons), but she couldn't be more distracted if this was called Side Quests.  It's a stretch to assume anyone in the Westeros meatgrinder would rally to her banner when she can't even manage a popular uprising in Mereen without farking things up.
*I keed, I keed
 
2013-03-26 11:13:57 AM  

DerAppie: Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.


Highly unlikely, since the only reason that the other person got brought back was because of who found their body.
 
2013-03-26 11:14:37 AM  

elvindeath: Kimpak: MEH

I'm edgy because I kill off main characters.

Only thing I like about this show is the ample amounts of boobage.

MEH.

I'm edgy because I just throw a bunch of boobs into my show.


But they need the boobs. As a wise machine/dinosaur once said: Because, Inferno, when expecting booby traps... Always send the "boob" in first.

And the way they keep falling they could use a bit more of them.
 
2013-03-26 11:16:25 AM  

dragonchild: Nick Spiceyweiner: Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something.

This was also supposed to have been a trilogy.  Just sayin'.

Father_Jack: Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them.

That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but I'm curious as to how this would happen without being ridiculous.  Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.  OK, seriously, the noble families have been shown to squabble to such a self-destructive extent that the most plausible reaction they'd have to any supernatural threat is a mass exodus out of Westeros, buying favors with their ill-gotten wealth along the way, until the tattered victims of their civil war are left to deal with essentially a Land of the Dead crapsack world.  Not only is there zero evidence Dany is punching her ticket to Westeros anytime soon, even if she did arrive there's absolutely no reason for Tyrion to trust what he would see as a power-hungry carpetbagger.  There hasn't been any sort of "Escape from the Death Star" sequence to firmly establish any sort of unity amongst the surviving sympathetic characters; they've spent much of the epic separated from each other.  If GRRM ever had some sort of grand epic finale in mind, he's already long missed the chance to build up to it.  The story desperately needs some Jedi or Ring-bearer to rally around and Dany is the most likely candidate by default (if only because of her dragons), but she couldn't be more distracted if this was called Side Quests.  It's a stretch to assume anyone in the Westeros meatgrinder would rally to her banner when she can't ev ...


Spolier if you haven't read the books yet...

Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.

/That's my 2 cents, and I'm stickin' to it.
 
2013-03-26 11:20:05 AM  

Father_Jack: bhcompy: Father_Jack: Really, to me, the only character whose destiny in the greater story arc is unclear is Arya. I have no idea what RR has in store for her. Virtually everyone else who is a POV protagonist that isnt a Lannister i can see a way how they will all come together and potentially live in harmony in a new westeros order, from Dani to Jon to Bran to Sansa to ... well basically everyone who's not trying to kill them. But arya's fate is not even partially clear, the way i think the Stark children's is.

And that's just because GRRM screwed the pooch with Arya's story, nothing else.

explain yourself. do it. do it now or ill have you on your way to The Wall.


The execution of her current storyline is very poor compared the execution of her previous storylines.  She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.
 
2013-03-26 11:31:39 AM  

Teufelaffe: DerAppie: Seriously, it won't be long until you know who that got killed at a certain social event and had the head of a certain animal stitched to his corpse gets resurrected as well, forever running around like some half assed Anubis.

Highly unlikely, since the only reason that the other person got brought back was because of who found their body.


Yeah I know, but considering the personality of our newly resurrected I am not convinced that she won't do some "convincing" of her own to find the body and force a resurrection on whatever is left.
 
2013-03-26 11:36:56 AM  

Teufelaffe: Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.


Yeah, but we're at the end of book 5 out of 7 (assuming GRRM doesn't blow it again) and he's not even there yet, and things really don't matter until Dany arrives in Westeros.  I'm taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach here because at this point it's all GRRM deserves.  To compare this to a more conventional story arc, about 5/7ths into the original Star Wars trilogy they're adding ewoks to the mix.  OK, bad example, sorry.  My point is that by the time Star Wars has built up to its climactic 3-prong battle -- not during it, before it -- the camaraderie between Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia and Luke that's essential to defeating the Empire is a given because it's been cultivated over the prior 2 1/2 movies' worth of watching them struggle and grow.  This is something GRRM has gone out of his way to avoid doing until about midway through FfC, which is his perogative, but it also means his sympathetic characters have been disorganized and scattered for far too long for them to make any difference without deconstructing the deconstruction that's built up over 4000 pages.

My point isn't that GRRM should work toward a happy ending; I just don't see any meaningful ending coming out of this at all.  The only thing I get out of all I've read is that GRRM is hopelessly in love with the status quo, which is ironic considering this whole epic reads like a giant statement about corruption & politics.  You can't just have Tyrion meet Dany after five phone books' worth of "trust no one" and give her the official Tyrion Lannister Seal of ApprovalTM even if she's got dragons.  Hell, Sansa shouldn't even trust Arya if they ever manage to reunite considering what both have been through.  It takes time for characters to build trust, and in a cloak & dagger world like Westeros it's especially difficult.  The most expedient way Dany gets a banner up is by asserting some sort of divine right, but far from asserting her own destiny she's been shopping for husbands and Tyrion strikes me as the least likely character to buy that sort of justification anyway.
 
2013-03-26 11:40:10 AM  

bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.


I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.
 
2013-03-26 11:51:26 AM  
Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.
 
2013-03-26 11:52:32 AM  

dragonchild: Teufelaffe: Tyrion is on his way to Dany, and will likely end up being the catalyst to getting her off her butt and on her way to Westeros.

Yeah, but we're at the end of book 5 out of 7 (assuming GRRM doesn't blow it again) and he's not even there yet, and things really don't matter until Dany arrives in Westeros.  I'm taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach here because at this point it's all GRRM deserves.  To compare this to a more conventional story arc, about 5/7ths into the original Star Wars trilogy they're adding ewoks to the mix.  OK, bad example, sorry.  My point is that by the time Star Wars has built up to its climactic 3-prong battle -- not during it, before it -- the camaraderie between Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia and Luke that's essential to defeating the Empire is a given because it's been cultivated over the prior 2 1/2 movies' worth of watching them struggle and grow.  This is something GRRM has gone out of his way to avoid doing until about midway through FfC, which is his perogative, but it also means his sympathetic characters have been disorganized and scattered for far too long for them to make any difference without deconstructing the deconstruction that's built up over 4000 pages.

My point isn't that GRRM should work toward a happy ending; I just don't see any meaningful ending coming out of this at all.  The only thing I get out of all I've read is that GRRM is hopelessly in love with the status quo, which is ironic considering this whole epic reads like a giant statement about corruption & politics.  You can't just have Tyrion meet Dany after five phone books' worth of "trust no one" and give her the official Tyrion Lannister Seal of ApprovalTM even if she's got dragons.  Hell, Sansa shouldn't even trust Arya if they ever manage to reunite considering what both have been through.  It takes time for characters to build trust, and in a cloak & dagger world like Westeros it's especially difficult.  The most expedient way Dany gets ...


sure there is. the politics is a very long winded side show.

the war between the wolf and the lion is a sideshow. it paves the way for a targaryan restoration by disrupting current order of alliances, and draining power from strong houses to enable them to be toppled with dani eventually returns to fight the REAL fight, which is the horror in the North above the wall. And only the dragons will defeat the north and the undead.

the characters imo are all being groomed to either take a place in this new westeros subsequent to dani's ascension to the throne either has her vassals or family. if we think about the roles the characters are playing in westeros, i think the ones which will survive are the ones which will have a role in this organization.

if dani and the targs are going to reign supreme to defend the realm from the horror north of the wall, what role are you going to have in her dynasty? if you have one, i bet youll survive the series. if you dont, you wont.
 
2013-03-26 12:19:17 PM  
As long as it has the boobies and the bonking...
 
2013-03-26 01:01:35 PM  

Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.


Yep I dropped it.  These money grubbing fantasy authors are shameless.  Take some chances and move on you dumb bunny!  Spoiler alert: wine is drunk, people are killed, plot inches forward.  Don't even get me started on Aria.
 
2013-03-26 01:06:02 PM  

Father_Jack: dani eventually returns to fight the REAL fight, which is the horror in the North above the wall. And only the dragons will defeat the north and the undead.


Which brings up the question:  Do you think GRRM will show us the war against North's horrors, or do you think the series will end with whoever takes and holds the Iron Throne uniting Westeros and gathering their forces for the confrontation?
 
2013-03-26 01:20:24 PM  

dragonchild: Maybe the threat of The Others can unite Westeros, but I'm not sure what Nicole Kidman and a couple of bratty kids* would do to fix political fractures this profound.


I would have said Benjamin Linus, but Nicole Kidman works...
 
2013-03-26 01:26:08 PM  
Mrs BrianGriffin has a masters in medieval studies and devours books about the politics of that era and she tells me that this series (she has only watched the series, but not read the books) is far and away the most accurate depiction of what it was like, politically and life in general, back then. I don't know if that was Martin's intent or not, but the overall grim future for just about everyone, the need to constantly reposition yourself based on power changing hands so abruptly was commonplace. Alliances collapsed overnight all the time, power shifts were frequently dictated by brutality and loyalty was almost non-existent unless one was confident that the person you aligned yourself to would stay in power. And that was all just for those of noble birth...if you were a commoner, you simply were farked, period. If there is an overriding theme to the books (admittedly, I have only read 1-3 so far) it's that no one is ever "safe" in the same way that we interpret the word "safe." Personally, I love the series because it is unlike anything else I have ever seen, on TV or in cinema. Every episode, at best, contains about 3-5 minutes when the listener can somewhat relax, otherwise the entire hour is spent dreading what might happen to a character one cares about. Another thing about the series is how the majority of the characters are so damn complex. With a few exceptions, e.g. Joffrey, even wholly unsympathetic ones, e.g. Cersei, have moments when one feels pity for them. THAT is great writing, IMO.

I feel damn lucky to have lived in an era when I could see works like this one and LOTR come to fruition on the screen. I still cringe at previous attempts at fantasy through the years, such as the excruciatingly horrid takes on The Earthsea series, the Chronicles of Prydain (Disney's The Black Cauldron which was so utterly full of fail compared to the book), and others. I'll take what I can get if it continues to be of this caliber and not be bothered by a handful of nits to be picked.

/YMMV, of course.
 
2013-03-26 01:27:33 PM  
I think the only thing predictable from GRRM is that the books will not, in fact, have a traditional "happy ending".  The only probable happy outcome is that all of humankind is not wiped out by ice zombies or burnt to death by raging dragons.
 
2013-03-26 01:33:00 PM  
Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.
 
2013-03-26 01:37:22 PM  

Egoy3k: Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.


THIS.
I gave up on fantasy a few decades ago. Loved it as a teen but after plowing through tolkien, zelazny, moorcock, and maybe a few others whose names escape me at the moment I found the writing of most fantasy authors to be pretty awful. But I do like a good sprawling read. I am the type of person who, when turning the last page of a good novel is genuinely sad to be at the end, and wishing there was more.
Then I found out about this GoT series being made into a series by hbo  and figured, why not? And quite frankly, I found the books to be quite fulfilling and enthralling. Yes I was thrown a bit by book four but I still enjoyed it. I love the sprawl of these books (it would be disingenuous of me to think otherwise though), I enjoy the uncertainty of any given characters future, and I am very glad that GRRM is putting this stuff out there for our entertainment.
And I am not of the opinion that the series has 'serious issues', I think it's developing just fine.
In short, I trust this author to tell me the story he wants to tell. And really, thats all I ever ask from an author.
I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...
 
2013-03-26 01:57:10 PM  

dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.


Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.
 
2013-03-26 01:57:17 PM  

Zoophagous: House Targerain (sp?)


Books on tape?
 
2013-03-26 02:01:06 PM  
So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?
Love medieval fantasy for the most part. Never got into Wheel of Time, made it about 3 or 4 books into Sword of Truth, loved Raymond Feist up to a point. When he killed everyone off and asked us to follow their children/grandchildren, I gave up. That and the never ending "This War" or "That War" and the next enemy always being the WORST! THING! EVAR!! got tiring. Really liked all of David Gemmell's stuff, though that's a l
 
2013-03-26 02:02:41 PM  
*ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?
 
2013-03-26 02:05:34 PM  

maelstrom0370: So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?


Read thru Storm of Swords, then wait and see if the miserable piece of sh*t bothers to finish before going further.  The nest 2 drag badly, no sense fighting through them if the fat f*ck strokes out.
 
2013-03-26 02:10:57 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


Arya is going to end up as a vengeance driven ninja riding around on a half crazed direwolf the size of a horse. Which sounds pretty damn awesome when you think about it.
 
2013-03-26 02:28:32 PM  

Zoophagous: Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons.


I think poor circulation runs in Jon's family. Dany's not going to care for his cold hands.
 
2013-03-26 02:45:08 PM  

meyerkev: dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.

Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.


Yea, basically this.  Plus lots of repetitive menial tasks(justifiable for Arya given what she's doing, but still...).  We don't need to see Arya become a woman day by day, we need a montage.  And Syrio lives.
 
2013-03-26 02:49:30 PM  
To quote Peter Dinklage: Nerd glaze.
 
2013-03-26 02:54:09 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...


The Bridge of Birds by Barry Hughart.  It's only one 200-250 page book and rather light (YA level with a dash of raunchy) reading, with some predictable twists and running gags that don't always work.  At times the hyperbole can take on a cartoony feel, but usually it's surprisingly entertaining and the characters' reactions are very believable (especially the use of humor as a coping mechanism in the face of tragedy).  I found the weaknesses quite forgivable and despite them the story feels more epic than fantasy series several times its length.

There are sequels and when you're done you'll soooooo be tempted to pick them up.  They're not disasters but compared to BoB they're disappointingly mediocre.
 
2013-03-26 02:57:28 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...


check out joe abercrombie
 
2013-03-26 03:03:39 PM  

Techhell: Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside.


Series is done. 95% of all plot points resolved. Overcome your issues and give it a proper readthrough.
 
2013-03-26 03:09:56 PM  

maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?


If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.
 
2013-03-26 03:14:21 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?

If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.


This.

Butcher isn't the greatest writer on the face of the planet but he sure writes entertaining stories. I absolutely love the character of Harry Dresden. The Codex Alera are pretty good too, considering he wrote them on a dare.
 
2013-03-26 03:23:03 PM  

bhcompy: meyerkev: dragonchild: bhcompy: She's very close to being a Robert Jordan female at this point.

I think I kind of get your point but can you elaborate?  The metaphor doesn't work for me because I avoided WoT due to its infamy, and the infamy is rather vague beyond sell-out rambling after the first few books.

Basically, in Books 5-11, you can skip reading any female characters who existed in earlier books and miss nothing.

Rand always is doing something.  Mat's usually being awesome comic relief.  Perrin at least has a story (though skip books 8-11).  It's slow and plodding, but it either advances the story or is Mat being awesome (or is as mentioned, Perrin).

And starting about book 5 or so, females do nothing.  The White Tower storyline takes too long (Starts in either 3 or 4, ends in Book farking 11), Elayne and Nynaeve get sent off on a sidequest and stay there for like 4 books, and then Nynaeve disappears (having a moment of awesome in Book 9 with Rand) and Elayne is off on another sidequest that takes way too long.

/Say what you will about Sanderson, he resolved the stupid sidequests, and paid off most of the big reveals quite well.

Yea, basically this.  Plus lots of repetitive menial tasks(justifiable for Arya given what she's doing, but still...).  We don't need to see Arya become a woman day by day, we need a montage.  And Syrio lives.


i would suggest that while Sanderson made Matt even funnier then Jordan, the resolution of those storylines would have come when they did, Sanderson or not. Books 12/13/14 remember were originally supposed to be one book (because Jordan realized he didn;t have time to bust out 2 or 3 more). So he left the notes and left the epilogue.

Sanderson didn't hurt obviously, yet IMO you can;t give credit to Sanderson for saying "Well, I am tired of this crap and galldarnitall i will resolve these storylines whether anyone likes it or not". Jordan was getting there.

YMMV on whether it should have taaken him that long to get there though of course.

/personally think books 7-8 could have been one book
//11-13 are nothing but plot point resolutions
///14, the finale, is awesome
 
2013-03-26 03:25:46 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: maelstrom0370: *ahem*...stupid phone!
Anyway, Gemmell's stuff is a lot more black and white, clear cut good vs evil stuff. And who doesn't like Druss??
To make a short story long and pointless, are they worth getting into?

If you are willing to wait god nknows how long for him to finish them, sure.

You already mention WoT and SoT, so I'll suggest you try out Jim Butcher's two book series (The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera series) AND The Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.


I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about
 
2013-03-26 03:31:09 PM  

King of the bees: The Codex Alera are pretty good too, considering he wrote them on a dare.


Thought that was a Dresden files antecdote.

*off to teh googles*

And I was wrong, you are right good sir.  (That's a neat little interview from a few years ago i linked to)
 
2013-03-26 03:38:18 PM  

maelstrom0370: *snip*

I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about


This I would like to know about. I roam around the forums on his website every few months to see what's up but I haven't seen anything new. I figured he'd just put more focus back into Dresden now that he's wrapped up Alera.

Also, thanks for the link Jim, I'll take a look at that.
 
2013-03-26 03:42:26 PM  

Egoy3k: Arya is going to end up as a vengeance driven ninja riding around on a half crazed direwolf the size of a horse. Which sounds pretty damn awesome when you think about it.


I'm in


Maybe just maybe she can ride it to Winterfell!
 
2013-03-26 03:44:34 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I am looking for more worthwhile fantasy to take a peek at, any recommendations would be appreciated...


There is always the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett which should be required reading for all fantasy readers IMO.

The Memory Sorrow and Thorn trilogy by Tad Williams is predictable but still fun.

I might get blasted on fark for recommending the Chronicles of the Shadow War trilogy by Chris Claremont and George Lucas but I will anyway. I enjoyed the way that magic was used in the series. Magic had a strict set of rules rather than mere handwaving.
 
2013-03-26 03:49:10 PM  

King of the bees: maelstrom0370: *snip*

I'm already a rabid Dresden Files fan and read the Codex Alera series as well. I think I read somewhere he's starting a new series as well but, for the life of me, can't remember what it's about

This I would like to know about. I roam around the forums on his website every few months to see what's up but I haven't seen anything new. I figured he'd just put more focus back into Dresden now that he's wrapped up Alera.

Also, thanks for the link Jim, I'll take a look at that.


Just looked it up. It's a steam punk series called The Cinder Spires. The first book is The Aeronaut's Windlass. Got it from a Facebook fan page and they're usually pretty accurate about all things Jim.
 
2013-03-26 03:57:43 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: Egoy3k: Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.

THIS.
I gave up on fantasy a few decades ago. Loved it as a teen but after plowing through tolkien, zelazny, moorcock, and maybe a few others whose names escape me at the moment I found the writing of most fantasy authors to be pretty awful. But I do like a good sprawling read. I am the type of person who, when turning the last page of a good novel is genuinely sad to be at the end, and wishing there was more.
Then I found out about this GoT series being made into a series by hbo  and figured, why not? And quite frankly, I found the books to be quite fulfilling and enthralling. Yes I was thrown a bit by book four but I still enjoyed it. I love the sprawl of these books (it would be disingenuous of me to think otherwise though), I enjoy the uncertainty of any given characters future, and I am very glad that GRRM is putting this stuff out there for our entertainment.
And ...


Malazan (Erikson), anything by Kay, Prince of Nothing (Bakker).. A good start for you.

Lynch and Rothfuss are good as well, but easier reads.  More adultlike than Dragonlance, but less refined than Bakker, Erikson, or Martin
 
2013-03-26 05:05:05 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.
 
2013-03-26 05:12:01 PM  

FuManchu7: redmond24: Well the series isn't over yet. The final book in the series is or was supposed to be called 'A Time for Wolves'.

Whats that quote...the arc of history bends towards justice?

A quick search indicated the final title will be A Dream of Spring.  Given the path of the books I've read so far, I imagine few will get a happy ending.  The "final" king may just be the last of the nobility left alive in the entire realm.


It was at one point titled A Time for Wolves but was changed because it probably gave too much hope.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68145-a-time-for-wolves-w as -a-great-title/
 
2013-03-26 05:26:41 PM  
I humbly add the following to the book-spoilers-versus-TV-spoilers debate:

"Rage of Thrones," by Axis of Awesome

Spoilers ahead...

The book was better!
It's "Joffrey," not "Jeffrey!"
 
2013-03-26 05:56:40 PM  

Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.


if/ when Jon Snow shows up hale and healthy in the next Song of Lamprey Pies novel, then we'll know how it ends.

/With Mary Sue Targaryen and her male equivalent Jon "I am stupid" Snow ruling the world.
/ Stannis has a bigger stick up his ass than Ned did, and he's still king of the (alive) assholes. can't explain that!
 
2013-03-26 06:04:29 PM  

legion_of_doo: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....

I am most intrigued by Bran's story line. The other plots seem to have an obvious resolution to them, not Bran's. I suspect bran's special ability may end up intertwined with Dany's dragons.

Oh and my money is on Dany and Jon Snow being married at the end of the books. Yes I know what happened to Jon in Dance With Dragons. But as we have seen that hasn't prevent other characters from continuing in the story. Just makes sense to me, House Stark and House Targerain (sp?) together on the Iron Throne. Plus Jon and Dany seem to be very similar and the most noble, likable characters for me.

if/ when Jon Snow shows up hale and healthy in the next Song of Lamprey Pies novel, then we'll know how it ends.

/With Mary Sue Targaryen and her male equivalent Jon "I am stupid" Snow ruling the world.
/ Stannis has a bigger stick up his ass than Ned did, and he's still king of the (alive) assholes. can't explain that!


And even if we "know"  I won't care, because GRRM crafts an enjoyable tale.
 
2013-03-26 06:17:36 PM  

Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.


Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.
 
2013-03-26 06:30:01 PM  

maelstrom0370: So, for everyone who *has* read the books, are they worth it?
Love medieval fantasy for the most part. Never got into Wheel of Time, made it about 3 or 4 books into Sword of Truth, loved Raymond Feist up to a point. When he killed everyone off and asked us to follow their children/grandchildren, I gave up. That and the never ending "This War" or "That War" and the next enemy always being the WORST! THING! EVAR!! got tiring. Really liked all of David Gemmell's stuff, though that's a l


if you say you like fantasy, you must read them and have an opinion about them because they are important in the genre.

beyond that, it's all a matter of taste, really. I think the books are overrated, and HBO has done a fine job (with GRRM) in editing down the better parts of the series. others prefer the books.

everyone doesn't have to like everything, however.

/I wonder if Dany knows where whores go. perhaps to hang out with Xaro Xhoan Daxos!
 
2013-03-26 06:35:55 PM  

Nick Spiceyweiner: Except that he already knows how it is going to end, and has already told the writers for the show in case he dies or something. Damn, do you even read anything about the show you seem to complain so much about?


Funny. I remember he mentioned something about letting them know how he wanted the story to end. He also started writing a book series -- not a TV series. He also intended to have books published faster than every 6 years...

having a half assed idea about how you want to end a story is called "coming up with a story". The ending is the biggest, hardest part of the story. Its what makes the whole thing sink or swim.  That he only has a rough idea is not something you want to hear as his investor half way through the project. He is trying to build a house from the roof down. The ending of a story is like the foundation of a house. Everything rests on it and is built upon it. If you want to change it you have to tear down walls and change the building itself. To set the walls and roof first is just painting yourself into a corner.

He beats around the bush and any progress in his story seems to be undone in the next few chapters. His characters take a long time to get to places they dont really do much at...

Ok -- does anyone remember the bits about oldtown? And the fancy candle and the guy who steals faces? Remember piggy and how he got sent down there? Remember how there are two chapters across two books that reference some school of maesters? Remember? Do you remember how nothing in his thousands upon thousands of pages relates or goes back to that setting or those characters?

I was so pissed when i read those chapters. They were like big cliff hangers for characters you had never met before and would never meet again. You got the feeling that those chapters were supposed to start tying threads back together but they havent been touched.

Bah -- Grrm is the next Terry Goodkind. The books start off good but by the end you realize the author has just been whacking off.
 
2013-03-26 07:01:27 PM  

Egoy3k: Why is a story that you can predict and characters that you completely understand desirable in a story? Why is a large cast of characters with conflicting goals, abilities and influences undesirable? I'm not goign to argu that A Song of Ice and Fire is the best series ever or anything, it has serious issues, but all the criticisms against it seem to assume freely that the books would be better if they followed some unwritten rulebook that woulds make the story unremarkable from any other fantasy series.

Characters can change, protagonists can come and go. The situation in Westeros is complete chaos and fortunes change from day to day. That's the nature of the books and to take that way would change the whole story. It seems that people are just upset because they need to choose how they feel about the characters and not be handed a clear protagonist to root for and a clear evil for the protagonist to vanquish.

Like I said the series isn't the best but it's rare when a book makes me feel guilty for liking a character like I did after we got to see more of Jamie Lannister. I'll keep reading.


I totally agree. I still feel guilty for liking Jamie so much, given what he did to a helpless little boy. The fact that GRRM could make me do that, as a writer, is just amazing.

As for Arya, she is going to be a kick-ass, face-changing assassin, I am quite sure. I don't see how anyone can say her story isn't going anywhere. I mean, practically from the beginning, she's been practicing with weapons, getting her conscience stripped away from her, having her nose rubbed in the droppings of evil, losing people she loves, making lists of people to kill, getting in with the people who will help her kill them, getting some of them killed, killing people herself, and now she's in face-changer school. How anyone could read that and *not* know what she's going to be is astonishing.

I think some folks are conditioned to books/shows where Point A leads to Point C directly through Point B, but others of us enjoy the hell out of Point B1, B3, B7 and Point B79a-12.
 
2013-03-26 07:22:28 PM  

Clash City Farker: Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.

Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.


Where the hell was it mentioned that Rhaegar was gay?
 
2013-03-26 07:25:04 PM  

silvervial: I think some folks are conditioned to books/shows where Point A leads to Point C directly through Point B, but others of us enjoy the hell out of Point B1, B3, B7 and Point B79a-12.


The probem isn't B1, B3, B7 and B79a-12 -- the problem is those points seem plodding and the constant one step forward one step back makes them seem like filler after awhile. I like taking my time with the little things, but i don't like to waste my time with little things.
 
2013-03-26 07:29:40 PM  
I like books with complex plots. that assumes the existence of a plotline/series of plotlines.

I would even accept a Song of Lamprey Pies as a character thing, along the lines of Emostar Crylactica. the issue is that there is no real story there. it is just the meandering of a bunch of degenerates, and not a story about anything in particular, so why talk about plot when there is none?

the best thing about the HBO series (aside from tatas) is the fact that it has to be edited down.
 
2013-03-26 08:35:31 PM  

legion_of_doo: the best thing about the HBO series (aside from tatas) is the fact that it has to be edited down.


This is why I'm optimistic about the respective adaptations of FFC and DWD. I think they might make much better television viewing than they did reading.
 
2013-03-26 08:46:49 PM  

silvervial: I think some folks are conditioned to books/shows where Point A leads to Point C directly through Point B, but others of us enjoy the hell out of Point B1, B3, B7 and Point B79a-12.


mikefinch: The probem isn't B1, B3, B7 and B79a-12 -- the problem is those points seem plodding and the constant one step forward one step back makes them seem like filler after awhile. I like taking my time with the little things, but i don't like to waste my time with little things.


This, but I'm not focusing on Arya to point out weaknesses in the story anyway.  (I know bhcompy said it, but he can speak for himself.)  She's one of the few characters that have had any sort of true arc (as opposed to just sequentially sympathetic perspectives).  It's more like, well, OK, she may be important soon, and she's cool.  But damn if she didn't get a late start, and second, whether or not her particular arc is meaningful (read: not yet) doesn't really justify how hopelessly the story is weighed down by other chapters.  If you actually enjoyed all that Reek nonsense in DwD that's your perogative, but this isn't an Edgar Allen Poe story.  An insane viewpoint in a fantasy epic is as justified as a bonus stage in an horror-themed FPS video game -- it may be fun, but at best it adds nothing to the work's legacy and at worst it can seriously disrupt the tone.  That's just one example, but there are two explanations and neither of them are flattering:  Either GRRM's throwing shiat at the wall to appeal to various tastes for maximum popularity, or he really can't stop himself from dicking around.  Mereen is morphing from what obviously should've just been a de facto training ground for Dany to mature into a leader into a quagmire she can't dislodge herself from.  And if she really needs Tyrion to yank her ass out of there, then she's not ready for prime time.  Not in the meatgrinder that is Westeros, if she can't even navigate a straightforward insurrection.  Wait, she's not ready??  Girl, this is after over four thousand pages, yo.  At what point are we allowed to say this isn't merely an issue of short attention span?  It's not like Dany's been given less time to grow than a YouTube cat video.

It's one thing to see Rocky Balboa train for a fight with a cliche montage.  But you know what?  Describing every drop of sweat on every rep on every workout doesn't make for a good story, either.  It's just padding.
 
2013-03-26 08:54:39 PM  

Girion47: Clash City Farker: Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.

Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.

Where the hell was it mentioned that Rhaegar was gay?


He was quite gay. He and jon Connington (confirmed gay) were best buddies.
 
2013-03-26 09:16:56 PM  

Clash City Farker: Girion47: Clash City Farker: Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.

Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.

Where the hell was it mentioned that Rhaegar was gay?

He was quite gay. He and jon Connington (confirmed gay) were best buddies.


I've got a good number of gay friends, they aren't ram-rodding me up the ass.
 
2013-03-26 10:49:46 PM  

Supes: legion_of_doo: the best thing about the HBO series (aside from tatas) is the fact that it has to be edited down.

This is why I'm optimistic about the respective adaptations of FFC and DWD. I think they might make much better television viewing than they did reading.


I think so too.  This is one of those cases where the Cliff's Notes version would be way better executed than the text.

The writers/GRRM, of course, had to mention the lamprey pie in the HBO (I had a great laugh at that), but it's not endless eating contests on the screen.  And I don't care how the food represents the "story" because there's nothing going on!

So I'm optimistic that Tyrion isn't going to be wondering where whores go for an entire friggin season, and Dany's magical Mary Sue quest to liberate whatever can be boiled down to one single group of retards... and on and on, and so on and so forth.
 
2013-03-26 11:58:45 PM  

fozziewazzi: Hickory-smoked: I'm really not fond of replacing Robb's relationship with Jayne Westerling with "Talisa Maegyr."

That being said, Oona Chaplin is really hot.

The book doesn't goes into how Robb and Jeyne met, except in recollection.  He just suddenly shows up with her like she was war booty or something.  I think the writers made a call that this made Robb look impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic, which is what they don't want given what happens to him shortly afterwards.


The book states that Robb lost his shiat when hearing that Bran and Rickon were murdered, and Jeyne comforted him. He then stays with Jeyne out of love and honor. This seems way, way less selfish and impulsive than "I don't want to marry the Frey girl."
 
2013-03-27 12:09:01 AM  

mikefinch: Bah -- Grrm is the next Terry Goodkind.


So you think A Song of Ice and Fire is going to turn into a Randian wank fest with "SOCIALISM BAAAAD" being the message of every other page?
 
2013-03-27 12:51:26 AM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: So you think A Song of Ice and Fire is going to turn into a Randian wank fest with "SOCIALISM BAAAAD" being the message of every other page?


No -- that was just terrible i have to agree -- but i thought another problem with the Sword of Truth series was (in my eyes) a weird sexual outlet for the author. Food is Grrms socialism while the sex written into the story leads me to belive both authors write with a hand in their pants...

\ is sword of truth a randian soapbox? OR is it a weird compilation of the authors BDSM fantasies?
\\ I bet Grrms favorite writing-bate lube is the juice that comes out when you open a can of mechanically separated chicken meat.
 
2013-03-27 02:54:35 AM  

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: I still think they could have written it better. Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character. The change in the tv series makes it seem like he was just some young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking.


Oh, don't kid yourself. He was definitely a young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking. Things like honor were the excuse to cover up his major fark-up.

Just look at Ned Stark, same dumbass pattern.
 
2013-03-27 02:56:55 AM  

LectertheChef: I don't know, Sansa's a bit too submissive.


That's because Sansa is another one of the dumbass "HONOR ABOVE ALL ELSE" Starks. She does the feminine version of Ned Stark refusing to watch out for his own demise, which is to totally go along with the princess + white knight prince stereotype.
 
2013-03-27 03:42:34 AM  

torusXL: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: I still think they could have written it better. Robb married Jeyne to protect her honor, something in line with his character. The change in the tv series makes it seem like he was just some young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking.

Oh, don't kid yourself. He was definitely a young horny kid who let his dick do all the talking. Things like honor were the excuse to cover up his major fark-up.

Just look at Ned Stark, same dumbass pattern.


LOL.

google R+L=J

Man a lot of you guys have no clue what youre talking about. Checkout /r/asoiaf and beware of spoilers.

Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet. The series is good but the books are still twice as good.
 
2013-03-27 08:18:33 AM  

redmond24: Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet.


It's not that we don't grasp them.  It's that we don't care.

GRRM's writing has its enjoyable qualities, but at best it deserves two-and-a-half stars.  Really, it's not like this guy is a John Steinbeck, Emily Dickinson, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Ernest Hemingway or Henry Thoreau.  He's admittedly talented enough to deserve being held to some semblance of literary standard, but don't reach.  Try to make him out to some master of language and hoo boy you'd better prepare yourself to get thoroughly bloodied.  He's a pop culture author shamelessly appealing to very banal guilty pleasures.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind you -- as long as we're honest about what it is.  It's telling how so many people were shocked by Ned's death; GRRM foreshadowed it early in the first book in a way that was screamingly obvious to anyone who's read literature.
 
2013-03-27 08:26:49 AM  
What actually happened during Robert's Rebellion/War of the Usurper is one of the great mysteries of the series. GRR has not come out and openly said what happened, he only puts in a few facts mixed in with various POV from people that lived it. These are just characters in the stories, they do not necessarily have the right answers. You combine that with what GRRM is trying to do, be a modern Tolkien, and you can start to realise that what we think is going on may not be what is really happening or what really happened RE: R+L=J.

/and by modern Tolkien, I mean he is retelling stories that have already been told.
 
2013-03-27 08:55:36 AM  

dragonchild: redmond24: Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet.

It's not that we don't grasp them.  It's that we don't care.

GRRM's writing has its enjoyable qualities, but at best it deserves two-and-a-half stars.  Really, it's not like this guy is a John Steinbeck, Emily Dickinson, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Ernest Hemingway or Henry Thoreau.  He's admittedly talented enough to deserve being held to some semblance of literary standard, but don't reach.  Try to make him out to some master of language and hoo boy you'd better prepare yourself to get thoroughly bloodied.  He's a pop culture author shamelessly appealing to very banal guilty pleasures.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind you -- as long as we're honest about what it is.  It's telling how so many people were shocked by Ned's death; GRRM foreshadowed it early in the first book in a way that was screamingly obvious to anyone who's read literature.


...I care
 
2013-03-27 09:55:54 AM  
 
2013-03-27 10:19:57 AM  
I like Terry Goodkind and the Sword of Truth series.

I like Terry Goodkind and the Sword of Truth series.
 
2013-03-27 10:31:57 AM  

dragonchild: redmond24: Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet.

It's not that we don't grasp them.  It's that we don't care.

GRRM's writing has its enjoyable qualities, but at best it deserves two-and-a-half stars.  Really, it's not like this guy is a John Steinbeck, Emily Dickinson, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Ernest Hemingway or Henry Thoreau.  He's admittedly talented enough to deserve being held to some semblance of literary standard, but don't reach.  Try to make him out to some master of language and hoo boy you'd better prepare yourself to get thoroughly bloodied.  He's a pop culture author shamelessly appealing to very banal guilty pleasures.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind you -- as long as we're honest about what it is.  It's telling how so many people were shocked by Ned's death; GRRM foreshadowed it early in the first book in a way that was screamingly obvious to anyone who's read literature.


Shakespeare was thought of the same way!

Really, though, GRRM's contribution isn't his literary mastery, it's his participation in the revival of hard adult fantasy.  Fantasy was suffering very hard under the stewardship of Feist, Goodkind, Jordan, etc.  Very juvenile, lacking subtlety and nuance, basically something for a middle schooler to read.  While there were other authors writing a more adult style of fantasy(Kay, for instance), GRRM helped bring it to the forefront because his books sold well.  And, now, we're in a fantasy renaissance.
 
2013-03-27 10:52:42 AM  

bhcompy: Really, though, GRRM's contribution isn't his literary mastery, it's his participation in the revival of hard adult fantasy.


Oh, I'm all down with that.  I'm livin' up the resurgence of fantasy in my generation, and while I dissed GRRM's prose as mediocre I'll freely admit most fantasy fiction available in my youth (outside Tolkein) was painfully bad.  By all means, let's give credit where it's due.  We have a fantasy series on HBO FFS!  I just had to rip into the "you just don't get the subtlety" comment because it's a pretty common insult of last resort when people who take his work seriously enough to critique it bash heads with fanbois who think GRRM is above all criticism.

GRRM is not subtle.  At best he's coy.  I did Google "R+L=J" and when I read it my only reaction was, "Oh, that."  Is Jon a Targaryen?  Well, we haven't seen his long-form birth certificate, but GRRM's introduced way too much circumstantial evidence for this revelation (if true) to have any shock value.
 
2013-03-27 12:00:45 PM  
I think the HBO series is doing the books justice, and I enjoy watching it come to life on screen.   I do not think GRRM is the greatest author out there, but he did break an annoying paradigm that most epic series in fantasy cling to where the main group of characters are basically immortal.  It was quite a splash in the genre when Ned got shortened.

My fantasy series suggestions: if ended in X not complete:
Almost anything by Brandon Sanderson
Chronicles of Amber 1-10? Roger Zelazny
Codex Alera  1-6 by Jim Butcher
Jig the Goblin 1-3 by Jim C Hines - FUN
Sir Apropos of Nothing 1-3 by Peter David - FUN
Iron Druid 1- X by Kevin Hearne
Warded Man 1- X Peter V Brett
Light Bringer 1-X Brent Weeks
King Killer 1-X Patrick Rothfus (EXCELLENT)
Ravens Shadow 1-X (EXCELLENT)
Shadow Dance 1-3 by David Dalglish

Post Apocalyptic series:
Wool by Hugh Howey
The Passage by Justin Cronin
The Remaining by DJ Molles

I'm sure I have many more to add, just what I could see on my Kindle at the moment.
 
2013-03-27 01:22:45 PM  

dragonchild: redmond24: Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet.

It's not that we don't grasp them.  It's that we don't care.

GRRM's writing has its enjoyable qualities, but at best it deserves two-and-a-half stars.  Really, it's not like this guy is a John Steinbeck, Emily Dickinson, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Ernest Hemingway or Henry Thoreau.  He's admittedly talented enough to deserve being held to some semblance of literary standard, but don't reach.  Try to make him out to some master of language and hoo boy you'd better prepare yourself to get thoroughly bloodied.  He's a pop culture author shamelessly appealing to very banal guilty pleasures.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind you -- as long as we're honest about what it is.  It's telling how so many people were shocked by Ned's death; GRRM foreshadowed it early in the first book in a way that was screamingly obvious to anyone who's read literature.


Hemingway doesn't belong in the same class as those others.  Hemingway's writing was downright awful.  Sure, he's not as bad as Stephanie Meyer, but he is one of the most overrated authors in history.

/The Old Man and the Sea is a great way to judge someone's character.  If they like that book, or even worse love it, they're a bad person who probably likes to molest puppies.
 
2013-03-27 03:35:55 PM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: dragonchild: redmond24: Don't shiat on the books if you haven't even grasped the subtleties yet.

It's not that we don't grasp them.  It's that we don't care.

GRRM's writing has its enjoyable qualities, but at best it deserves two-and-a-half stars.  Really, it's not like this guy is a John Steinbeck, Emily Dickinson, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Ernest Hemingway or Henry Thoreau.  He's admittedly talented enough to deserve being held to some semblance of literary standard, but don't reach.  Try to make him out to some master of language and hoo boy you'd better prepare yourself to get thoroughly bloodied.  He's a pop culture author shamelessly appealing to very banal guilty pleasures.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind you -- as long as we're honest about what it is.  It's telling how so many people were shocked by Ned's death; GRRM foreshadowed it early in the first book in a way that was screamingly obvious to anyone who's read literature.

Hemingway doesn't belong in the same class as those others.  Hemingway's writing was downright awful.  Sure, he's not as bad as Stephanie Meyer, but he is one of the most overrated authors in history.

/The Old Man and the Sea is a great way to judge someone's character.  If they like that book, or even worse love it, they're a bad person who probably likes to molest puppies.


I gotta disagree, I liked Hemingway.  He had a definitive style, and painted clear pictures with a minimal amount of fluff.  I found The Sun Also Rises to be quite entertaining even in high school.

Faulkner on the other hand managed to write a book less entertaining than the paper I wipe my ass with.  As I Lay Dying is the single worst book...hell, worst collection of words, ever compiled in history.  Even worse than The Scarlet Letter.

/Only thing of GRRM I've read is Game of Thrones series.  I wouldn't call it great or thought-provoking literature but it has been a fun read to me, and I tend to want to know what is going to happen next, so the pages keep turning.  I also liked how it started out having just a *hint* of mysticism...I'm not really stoked that there are basically zombies running around now, but having some craziness north-of-the-wall was alright in that it explains the necessity of the wall in the first place, and it is a totally segregated part of the world.
//The HBO series is pretty cool too, and they cast it very well.
 
2013-03-28 11:02:25 AM  

redmond24: google R+L=J


That theory is AWESOME! Especially considering Jon Snow's current state. He'll be leading an army from the North, that's for sure. A very scary type of army, if you get my drift.
 
2013-03-28 11:15:59 AM  

dragonchild: bhcompy: Really, though, GRRM's contribution isn't his literary mastery, it's his participation in the revival of hard adult fantasy.

Oh, I'm all down with that.  I'm livin' up the resurgence of fantasy in my generation, and while I dissed GRRM's prose as mediocre I'll freely admit most fantasy fiction available in my youth (outside Tolkein) was painfully bad.  By all means, let's give credit where it's due.  We have a fantasy series on HBO FFS!  I just had to rip into the "you just don't get the subtlety" comment because it's a pretty common insult of last resort when people who take his work seriously enough to critique it bash heads with fanbois who think GRRM is above all criticism.

GRRM is not subtle.  At best he's coy.  I did Google "R+L=J" and when I read it my only reaction was, "Oh, that."  Is Jon a Targaryen?  Well, we haven't seen his long-form birth certificate, but GRRM's introduced way too much circumstantial evidence for this revelation (if true) to have any shock value.


I care as well.
And I agree that most fantasy fiction (with a few notable exceptions) is painfully bad. But I humbly suggest that GRRM's style is better than mediocre, and to compare him to hawthorne or hemmingway etc is pretty silly, but whatever. Of course he is not above criticism, but I also do not agree that he attempts to appeal to our base desires in a shameful and banal manner. I think he handles the sex, violence, etc quite realistically and masterfully, I do not think any of it is gratuitous. I find it a welcome, refreshing change of pace.
Not subtle? Just coy? Really? Again, disagree. Some things he handles with subtlety, others with deliberation, and sometimes he is coy about things. Your broad brush strokes of smug notwithstanding.
I suppose my biggest objection as far as people taking him to task is the idea that he owes his fans anything. That he isnt writing the books fast enough, that he includes too many details about 'things I dont care about', etc. I am also baffled about all the whining about the 5th book. I loved it. It contains my single favorite scene in the books so far.
I for one am farkin grateful that an author like he has produced a work like this. It has redeemed my faith in the possibility of fantasy fiction again. Because for the most part the rest of the genre still sucks.
 
2013-03-28 11:24:59 AM  

Gandalf_is_dead: But I humbly suggest that GRRM's style is better than mediocre, and to compare him to hawthorne or hemmingway etc is pretty silly, but whatever.


I don't think he's a perfect author, but he does one small thing that ends up putting his books beyond most other fantasy for me. He makes each subplot be more or less equal length, and generally the subplots take equal numbers of turns.

THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER than most other epic series like Wheel of Time where it might be a whole goddamn book before you hear about your favorite character again. I quit that series because I died of boredom trying to slog through an eight-chapter subplot of my least favorite character followed by one chapter of my favorite. GoT has plenty of boring subplots, but it's far made up for by the fact that they are equal-ish length and recycle regularly.
 
2013-03-28 11:52:30 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Little Finger. The answer is always Little Finger. Who drives the plot? Who is the most important character? Who's the only character that is "winning"?



Little Finger and Varys are arguably the two most important characters in the story, if you're up to date on the books.
 
2013-03-28 01:26:53 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I suppose my biggest objection as far as people taking him to task is the idea that he owes his fans anything.


This may surprise you, but I agree.  Nobody owes anyone anything.  If he's really sick of writing this series, he should be under no obligation (other than contractual if he's promised deliverables to his publisher or HBO) to write so much as a single page more.  I also haven't really commented on the detail, either.  Detail isn't something that is held to a quota, as long it's tastefully done.  Some of it can be a matter of preference, but fans of fantasy should always brace for more detail than other fiction because worldbuilding is such an essential part of the genre.  The food might be what you can make for yourself with Earth ingredients, but the reader can never assume that.  After that it's about where he wants to focus his detail, which I believe is damn near everything, but this was established from the get-go.

What I'm doing is challenging GRRM's fans to delve into both his flaws and his strengths.  No, really.  When I diss him, I'm wanting someone to prove me wrong in case I missed some sort of point, but throwing around adjectives like "masterful" or insults like "smug" don't cut it.  This is a bit of a confession, but what annoys me the most about GRRM isn't his writing or popularity, per se.  It's that his biggest fans are utterly incapable of adequately explaining why his writing is good, all while insisting it's high-brow intellectual material.  Well if his fans are that goddamn smart then let's hear some goddamn smart arguments already!  I love a good debate more than being right and a public forum of oh-so-smart GRRM fans would strike me as the ideal environment.  But a lot of it is just this:

Gandalf_is_dead: I am also baffled about all the whining about the 5th book. I loved it. It contains my single favorite scene in the books so far.


Sorry if that was cheap, but the problem I have with this comment isn't some Internet thing where I believe you exist to entertain me.  The reason why this rankles is that it provides absolutely no context whatsoever.  It could be said about ANY series that's 5+ books long.  Let's say, for example, there's a lurker in this thread who's curious about the fuss and looking for a case that SoIaF is quality reading.  This comment says nothing.  It's just fanboi enthusiasm.  It's on the level of something I'd expect from a Twilight fan FFS.  So I dig to try to find out exactly why some people luuurve the series so much (I think it's okay), but when I challenge them the examples are weak and the arguments are vague, and when that fails spectacularly they resort to insults.  While I could go on about GRRM's various flaws, what's disturbing is how is supposedly enlightened fans (who are such experts at writing) are so completely incapable expressing what they perceive to be GRRM's strengths into coherent thoughts.  I'll concede the series has plenty of complexity to it (actually that's not much of a concession at all) and is enjoyable in many ways, but if it's the greatest fantasy epic since LotR (and plenty of people insist it's better than LotR), GRRM's fans have a lot of explaining to do.

To be fair, I've actually read a fair bit of positive criticism in this thread and the last few comments (torusXL, bhcompy) were particularly enjoyable to read.  But generally this insight comes from those who are just as willing and able to delve into the flaws.  FWIW I could spend just as much time scrutinizing LotR's various flaws, but would it matter?  After a certain point, the more someone likes GRRM the greater the derp, but this is supposed to be a thinker's series.
 
2013-03-28 01:43:53 PM  

thornhill: Techhell: Old Man Winter: exick: Book 3 is by far the most kickass of the series, so this shocks me not.

What he said.

Seriously? Huh. Book 3 is where I stopped reading the series since it started to pull a Wheel of Time. "We've had two books to create a large group of primary characters, but for this book we're going to focus on this whole other group of secondary characters! Woohoo!" Sure, it was well written and had some great scenes, but I dropped the WoT for the same reason - book after book where new character after new character is introduced while old characters and main characters were pushed aside. Also didn't help that there was a what, 5 year lag between books 3 and 4? Has book 5 come out yet? *does a quick Wiki search, finds that yes indeed book 5 came out... 6 years after book 4.*

/Once the series is done, I'll pick it up again and read it start to finish.

I think you're confusing Book 4 with Book 3. There are only two new POV characters in Book 3, Jamie and Sam, both of whom were established in Book 1.

I would agree that the problem with Book 4 -- which lead to it being split into two books -- was the unnecessary inclusions of characters from Dorne and the Iron Islands, as well as Brienne's rather uninteresting POV chapters taking up about 17% of the book. All of this could have happened of screen.


IMHO, I think 4 and 5 could have been one book IF he took out Quentyn's storyline and roughly cut everyone's POV chapters in half.

He really did not know what to do with Danny's story at this point, because there was supposed to be a 5 year jump between. I hope he gets over this hump and Dany's story goes back to being good.
 
2013-03-28 02:09:40 PM  

dragonchild: DerAppie: Challenge: pick the 8 most important people in the book and try to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it.

FTFY.  You don't even need to go that far.

SoIaF's most distinctive characteristic is its own undoing; it suffers from waaaaay too much parity (or more accurately, inaction).  It's not the number of characters that cripple it so much as lack of a single meaningful one.  Who's the most important character?  Is it Tyrion?  His "victory" is mostly treading water in a cesspool without drowning or getting overwhelmed by the stench.  Slapping the King may have been emotionally satisfying but it doesn't bring Westeros so much as an inch closer to political stability.  Is it Dany?  She's not even in Westeros.  Is it Jon Snow?  He finally started getting desperate in DoD but he was summarily given GRRM's ol' "this is what happens to sympathetic characters if they get proactive" treatment.  Is it the Stark children?  They've been so excruciatingly passive that even by the end of the fifth book I'd argue the late Ned is still more relevant than all of them combined.  Anyone else?  The reward for playing is getting killed off if you upset GRRM's carefully cultivated balance of power.  After four thousand pages, there's yet to be any sort of victory by anyone that can't be completely undone a couple hundred pages later (the most plausible explanation for why Dany is still alive is her utter irrelevance to Westeros).  Any crypto-bastard that bites it just gets replaced by another crypto-bastard.  Some real-life badass like the aforementioned Vlad, or Hannibal or Subutai, would have a goddamn meteorite snuff him out in a smoking crater of deus ex machina if GRRM couldn't find some other way of killing off the nuisance.  It's like GRRM is severely allergic to closure or something.

It seems inevitable that any doorstop fantasy will be compared to the ultimate predecessor, but while LotR was very much a team effort it had a clear-cut protagonist.  The ...


Jesus god... TYRION IS FRODO!
 
2013-03-28 02:18:42 PM  

hegna: Little Finger and Varys are arguably the two most important characters in the story, if you're up to date on the books.


I always assumed they were polar opposites - Little Finger, supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a self-serving purpose to make more money, Varys supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a group-serving purpose of less fighting. Now that I've read the R+L=J theory, and seeing who Varys has been working with combined with Little Finger's position by book 5, I think they are both working together.

Or perhaps working together so that they can backstab each other at the very end to try and have it all. Nonetheless, working together for now.
 
2013-03-28 02:27:40 PM  

dragonchild: Gandalf_is_dead: I suppose my biggest objection as far as people taking him to task is the idea that he owes his fans anything.

This may surprise you, but I agree.  Nobody owes anyone anything.  If he's really sick of writing this series, he should be under no obligation (other than contractual if he's promised deliverables to his publisher or HBO) to write so much as a single page more.


He has an obligation of sorts.  One to himself as a writer.  It's to keep the quality around the same the whole way through.  He should not write a word more if it means that it will bring the work down, and, in a way, that means he owes it to the reader as well because we fund his writing.  Coleridge knew this.  Martin is no Coleridge, but he's attempting an epic and the general consencus is that he started fantastically, and with that comes greater responsibility.
 
2013-03-28 02:39:30 PM  

torusXL: hegna: Little Finger and Varys are arguably the two most important characters in the story, if you're up to date on the books.

I always assumed they were polar opposites - Little Finger, supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a self-serving purpose to make more money, Varys supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a group-serving purpose of less fighting. Now that I've read the R+L=J theory, and seeing who Varys has been working with combined with Little Finger's position by book 5, I think they are both working together.

Or perhaps working together so that they can backstab each other at the very end to try and have it all. Nonetheless, working together for now.


Well, it's been a while, but Varys seems to be particularly dedicated to ensuring the realm doesn't fall apart(and he's the only one with this mindset) and Little Finger has the brains and... property... to do the same, even though he is much less altruistic.  The only way Varys would backstab Little Finger would be if it meant what's best for the realm, I would say.
 
2013-03-28 02:46:09 PM  

shortymac: Jesus god... TYRION IS FRODO!


Can you imagine the Lord of the Rings books if Frodo was a sarcastic, cynical, bastard?


torusXL: hegna: Little Finger and Varys are arguably the two most important characters in the story, if you're up to date on the books.

I always assumed they were polar opposites - Little Finger, supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a self-serving purpose to make more money, Varys supporting a peaceful yet illegal king for a group-serving purpose of less fighting. Now that I've read the R+L=J theory, and seeing who Varys has been working with combined with Little Finger's position by book 5, I think they are both working together.

Or perhaps working together so that they can backstab each other at the very end to try and have it all. Nonetheless, working together for now.


My take on Varys is that he seems to be the only one who is genuinely putting the good of the kingdom above all else.  Everyone else is seeking personal power, more power for the people, vengeance, etc without putting much, if any, thought into what kind of kingdom they'll be left with when the smoke settles.  Varys seems to actually be concerned with making sure that the kingdom survives and even prospers, regardless of whose butt is warming the Iron Throne.  Sure, it's still ultimately self-serving since his station in life depends on a functional kingdom, but of all the major players, his machinations seem to be the best bet for avoiding total disaster.
 
2013-03-28 02:52:25 PM  

auralpleasure: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Little Finger. The answer is always Little Finger. Who drives the plot? Who is the most important character? Who's the only character that is "winning"?

This doesn't bode well for who?

I would include Varys along with littlefinger. they both have far more going on than meets the eye and are sneaky enough to manipulate the events without anyone even knowing that they're the ones pulling the strings.

I'm not sure if littlefinger survives the story but i have a pretty good feeling that Varys will be hanging around when everything shakes out.


Varys' story got much more interesting in book 5, but the question still remains (being vague for those who have yet to read the books):

WHY DOES VARYS AND HIS PENTOS BUDDY CARE ABOUT WESTEROS?!?!?!?

I like to believe it has something to do with the PTWP prophecy.
 
2013-03-28 02:52:38 PM  
Here's some more food for thought:

Jaqen H'ghar is the Many-Faced God (his avatar or physical incarnation or what have you).
 
2013-03-28 02:53:10 PM  
dragonchild: stuff

Yeah for the most part I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I really do not consider myself a 'fanboi' in that I think GRRM can do no wrong, is above criticism, etc. I just disagree with some of your assertions, comparisons, and your adjectives:p
I admit I genuinely enjoy GRRM's style and I do not spend much time trying to figure out why. But if I had to pick something to complain about I suppose it would be that his story often wanders about in directions I find myself following, at least initially, with reluctance. Mainly because I want to get on with a prior story thread that is as yet unresolved. But I am not yet convinced that's a weakness on the part of the author. The reader though...
I think you read a bit too much into my sentence about book 5. It was not intended as an unassailable proclamation, opening me up to comparisons to twilight fanboi fawning, just what it says and nothing more really. Fanboi enthusiasm? Okay, if you say so, I loved the book, I do not get why others find it boring or whatnot, I have to wonder what it was they were expecting. That is all.
I also cringe at requests for explanations of why someone likes a thing. Why do you like this music over that? Why mustangs over camaros? Why redheads over blondes? Or to paraphrase a comment in a music thread from a while ago - how come whenever I ask someone what it is they like about Tool's music, they cannot explain it to me? Erm, okayyyy. Then Tool's music must suck....
I suppose I COULD write a ten thousand word essay on why I like his work, and yes I am 'utterly capable' but I do not feel the burden is upon me to actually do so.
I fail to see what further explanation would be sufficient to make someone of differing opinion suddenly say, 'oh right okay well i hadnt considered that I reverse my position!'.
I did not mean for my smug comment to be insulting per se, but you have to admit, you do present your input here with a pejorative slant - GRRM aint all that, anyone who thinks otherwise - prove your point or perish in the fires of my burning intellect! <= meant as humor to make a point.
Regardless, I do get your point about fanboi blinders and I agree that a good debate about GRRM would be interesting and even possibly fun, but I also think it would quickly become tedious, annoying and ultimately pointless (for the reasons stated above).
I do have to ask though, if GoT is just 'okay', what fantasy series would you recommend I take a look at? As stated above, I am looking for more good fantasy. Sincere request:)
 
2013-03-28 02:53:55 PM  

shortymac: I like to believe it has something to do with the PTWP prophecy.


Yeah, but didn't Varys do a pretty thorough job stuffing everything into Stannis's face?
 
2013-03-28 03:07:38 PM  

torusXL: Here's some more food for thought:

Jaqen H'ghar is the Many-Faced God (his avatar or physical incarnation or what have you).


Except that book 5 establishes that all of the Faceless Men have the ability to change their appearance.  There's really nothing to suggest that Jaqen was anything other than a Faceless Man.
 
2013-03-28 03:54:31 PM  

Girion47: Clash City Farker: Girion47: Zoophagous: Book spoiler-ish....
The fact that he's around Melisandre will really help that happen.  Plus his questionable lineage makes it likely that he is a Targaryen.   I'm guessing he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  That's why Ned took him in and sullied his honor, to protect the life of his nephew.

Lyanna and Aerys. Rhaegar had teh gay.

Where the hell was it mentioned that Rhaegar was gay?


He's confused, his friend Jon C had the gay for him, or possibly just a really intense bro-mance.
 
2013-03-28 04:22:43 PM  

I created this alt just for this thread: Except that book 5 establishes that all of the Faceless Men have the ability to change their appearance.  There's really nothing to suggest that Jaqen was anything other than a Faceless Man.


I know that, which is why I said it was food for thought.

It's more of a hunch I have based on the various story arcs and the interactions between Arya and Jaqen rather than any specific details of Jaqen himself. I mean, in any case he's a Faceless Man so it wouldn't make sense if GRRM described anything substantial about Jaqen.

Here goes nothing:
Via the Many-Faced God, Jaqen seems to represent concepts about losing a fear of death to overcome the endless struggles of life. Tyrion represents the narrator who observes the endless struggle, and Jaqen represents an idea about how to find a way out.

Jaqen brings out Arya's natural courage and she starts to overcome bigger obstacles than any 10 year old child normally could. Also, when Jaqen offers to kill 3 targets of her choosing, Arya chooses Jaqen. He flinches slightly which for him means he was extremely surprised. To summarize my hunch, a world where free will exists is a world where even the inhabitants could choose to destroy the very thing that made them able to exist in that world, or on the other hand, this creator/god entity must avoid incarnating in that world at all to avoid such a possible fate. To have the otherwise invincible seeming Jaqen flinch at a 10 year old's idea speaks to his realization of that.

Yeah I know, this probably reads far more into things than really exist in the books. But this is how I see it. Maybe it's crazy, but it makes for way more fun reading (considering the aforementioned boring parts).
 
2013-03-28 04:31:23 PM  
Another aspect to my theory, if this helps get across what I mean:

The Faceless Men represent reincarnation because each face could be interpreted as a new life. By learning to accept new identities at will, you are letting go of grasping the ego because you are no longer clinging onto a specific identity. The philosophy of the Many-Faced God cult that Arya finds seems to be that a crucial part of letting go of ego is to lose the fear of death of self, but to also respect the consequences of wielding the power to give a person death. Not doing these two things leads to endless struggles - generations of families with endless feuds where even they don't remember the reasons behind the feud. Yet they continue it because they fear their own death and do not have issues with giving someone else death.

That's how the whole series appears to me, in a really general sense.
 
2013-03-28 05:59:43 PM  

dragonchild: Gandalf_is_dead: I suppose my biggest objection as far as people taking him to task is the idea that he owes his fans anything.

This may surprise you, but I agree.  Nobody owes anyone anything.  If he's really sick of writing this series, he should be under no obligation (other than contractual if he's promised deliverables to his publisher or HBO) to write so much as a single page more.  I also haven't really commented on the detail, either.  Detail isn't something that is held to a quota, as long it's tastefully done.  Some of it can be a matter of preference, but fans of fantasy should always brace for more detail than other fiction because worldbuilding is such an essential part of the genre.  The food might be what you can make for yourself with Earth ingredients, but the reader can never assume that.  After that it's about where he wants to focus his detail, which I believe is damn near everything, but this was established from the get-go.

What I'm doing is challenging GRRM's fans to delve into both his flaws and his strengths.  No, really.  When I diss him, I'm wanting someone to prove me wrong in case I missed some sort of point, but throwing around adjectives like "masterful" or insults like "smug" don't cut it.  This is a bit of a confession, but what annoys me the most about GRRM isn't his writing or popularity, per se.  It's that his biggest fans are utterly incapable of adequately explaining why his writing is good, all while insisting it's high-brow intellectual material.  Well if his fans are that goddamn smart then let's hear some goddamn smart arguments already!  I love a good debate more than being right and a public forum of oh-so-smart GRRM fans would strike me as the ideal environment.  But a lot of it is just this:

Gandalf_is_dead: I am also baffled about all the whining about the 5th book. I loved it. It contains my single favorite scene in the books so far.

Sorry if that was cheap, but the problem I have with this comment isn't some Inter ...


I can give you my "why" I feel that GRRM's writing is superb.   And this held true for the first 3 books, I still need to read 4 and 5 a couple more times.

1-3 felt plotless.   GRRM made a bunch of realistic characters, gave them backstorys, ambitions, and quirks.   He then made a fantasy world pretty much devoid of magic and then placed these people in this world to see how they would act.

To increase tension he has slowly been increasing the level of magic that is present as well.   Ned's beheading was shocking to me when I first read it (around 2001) so much so, I quit reading the book for about a month out of disgust.   How could he kill off the protagonist like that?  Tolkien never did that, neither did Asimov, Anthony, Dick, Burroughs, Bradbury or anyone else I had read up to that point, it was absolutely shocking for me, and I didn't know where the series could go from there.  I didn't like Tyrion my first read through either, I had the preconceived notion that he was part of the bad guys and therefore should be disliked.

I guess the reason I like GRRM so much is that he made reading fantasy require critical thinking, it wasn't like a roller-coaster where you know the twists and turns ahead of time and that at the end, you'll get off at the station smiling, now it's like kayaking class 5 rapids that you haven't scouted.  People try to bash it for being edgy...well when he wrote it, noone was being edgy, they were being boring and predictable, in 1996, edgy was needed, just because it's been copied and done to death in modern media doesn't cheapen what GRRM did back then.  It's like complaining that Shakespeare makes obscure references in his plays, back then those made sense, and worked well, now?  not so much.

/saw GRRM speak while in college(release of AFFC), signed my book with "keep your sword sharp"
 
2013-03-28 06:02:13 PM  

Girion47: I didn't like Tyrion my first read through either, I had the preconceived notion that he was part of the bad guys and therefore should be disliked.


I think that's the point.  He's pretty good at turning you on your head.  Except Cersei, every contemptible character that got their own POV became likable.  I actually feel bad for Jamie and I'm rooting for him with B.
 
2013-03-28 06:03:06 PM  

Gandalf_is_dead: I suppose I COULD write a ten thousand word essay on why I like his work, and yes I am 'utterly capable' but I do not feel the burden is upon me to actually do so.


It's not on anyone in particular, and while I've been harsh you've remained civil, so there's that.  It's not like any particular fan has to explain why they like Tool or GRRM or whatever.  But "like" isn't the issue.  I like City Hunter but there's absolutely nothing brilliant about the show.  It's 20 minutes of hyperbolic dudebro and penis jokes.  It's trash and I love it.  ASoIaF, however, is being called great.  It's that particular claim I'm taking to task.
 

Gandalf_is_dead: I do have to ask though, if GoT is just 'okay', what fantasy series would you recommend I take a look at? As stated above, I am looking for more good fantasy. Sincere request:)


You know. . .


uh. . .

um. . .

Touche.  I'm still looking myself.  I mean, if we're talking great here.  Among my personal favorites I really liked The Bridge of Birds for its originality, but it's very much snack food.  I can't honestly call it "great".  There are a few promising works on my to-get-to list, but I can't comment on them before I've read them:
John Crowley's The Deep
Kelly Link's Magic for Beginners
Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (more sci-fi tho)
 
2013-03-28 06:06:43 PM  
I know it isn't technically fantasy but I feel the Hyperion Cantos was well done.

/and deserving of a TV series.
 
2013-03-28 06:14:54 PM  

bhcompy: Except Cersei, every contemptible character that got their own POV became likable.  I actually feel bad for Jamie and I'm rooting for him with B.


Don't pass Cersei up so quickly. She's a willful person and sees similarities between herself and her brother, yet she lives in a world that uses women, as she puts it, as brood mares while Jaimie can get everything he wants simply for A) Being is father's son, B) Having a strong sword arm.

She's one of the most badass characters of them all. She's fighting back at a whole society that discriminates against her just for having a vag and she's even potentially winning. Jaimie's bored at the world because it bores him so much, while Cersei is taking on the whole world by herself. She wishes they could team up and take up the fight together as a great team, but Jaimie realizes he's his own person and breaks away.
 
2013-03-28 06:27:09 PM  

torusXL: shortymac: I like to believe it has something to do with the PTWP prophecy.

Yeah, but didn't Varys do a pretty thorough job stuffing everything into Stannis's face?


Remember, Stannis is also a Targ from his grandmother's side.
 
2013-03-28 06:34:00 PM  

Girion47: People try to bash it for being edgy...well when he wrote it, noone was being edgy, they were being boring and predictable, in 1996, edgy was needed, just because it's been copied and done to death in modern media doesn't cheapen what GRRM did back then.


You know, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.  Could the quality of writing be better?  Sure, but the first road carved into a frontier isn't going to be neatly paved.
 
2013-03-28 06:34:39 PM  

torusXL: bhcompy: Except Cersei, every contemptible character that got their own POV became likable.  I actually feel bad for Jamie and I'm rooting for him with B.

Don't pass Cersei up so quickly. She's a willful person and sees similarities between herself and her brother, yet she lives in a world that uses women, as she puts it, as brood mares while Jaimie can get everything he wants simply for A) Being is father's son, B) Having a strong sword arm.

She's one of the most badass characters of them all. She's fighting back at a whole society that discriminates against her just for having a vag and she's even potentially winning. Jaimie's bored at the world because it bores him so much, while Cersei is taking on the whole world by herself. She wishes they could team up and take up the fight together as a great team, but Jaimie realizes he's his own person and breaks away.


Except for the fact that the Sparrows have farked her world up nicely.
 
2013-03-28 06:34:48 PM  

shortymac: Remember, Stannis is also a Targ from his grandmother's side.


Oh, huh. I had no idea until I looked up the wiki hereditary chart. I tend to miss factoid type details.

Then yeah, PTWP is plausible. So what's Stannis gonna do about Aegon?
"FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

Or maybe Stannis will just be like "OMG bro didn't know you were around, ok I'll be your BFF".
 
2013-03-28 06:35:01 PM  

torusXL: bhcompy: Except Cersei, every contemptible character that got their own POV became likable.  I actually feel bad for Jamie and I'm rooting for him with B.

Don't pass Cersei up so quickly. She's a willful person and sees similarities between herself and her brother, yet she lives in a world that uses women, as she puts it, as brood mares while Jaimie can get everything he wants simply for A) Being is father's son, B) Having a strong sword arm.

She's one of the most badass characters of them all. She's fighting back at a whole society that discriminates against her just for having a vag and she's even potentially winning. Jaimie's bored at the world because it bores him so much, while Cersei is taking on the whole world by herself. She wishes they could team up and take up the fight together as a great team, but Jaimie realizes he's his own person and breaks away.


Thank you for realizing that! I thought I was the only one. May I ask if you are female? I'm one myself and I think that issue is lost on lots of male readers.

I see her struggling due to a lack of education, which is why she fails or does some wrongheaded things. For example, the deal she makes with the faith. When Jaime hears of it HE KNOWS it's a bad idea do to Westerosi history, even though he admits Tyrion would know the details. Cersei had no such education.
 
2013-03-28 06:36:07 PM  

Girion47: Except for the fact that the Sparrows have farked her world up nicely.


Maybe, maybe not.

Have you read all of book 5?
 
2013-03-28 06:41:56 PM  

torusXL: shortymac: Remember, Stannis is also a Targ from his grandmother's side.

Oh, huh. I had no idea until I looked up the wiki hereditary chart. I tend to miss factoid type details.

Then yeah, PTWP is plausible. So what's Stannis gonna do about Aegon?
"FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

Or maybe Stannis will just be like "OMG bro didn't know you were around, ok I'll be your BFF".


He's totally going "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" that guy has an inferiority complex as large as westeros.

He wants to be number 1 sooooooooooo bad.
 
2013-03-28 06:44:06 PM  

torusXL: Girion47: Except for the fact that the Sparrows have farked her world up nicely.

Maybe, maybe not.

Have you read all of book 5?


Just once, while on the beach, and seriously high from vicodin

/had all 4 wisdom teeth taken out the day before the book was released.
 
2013-03-28 06:44:15 PM  

shortymac: Thank you for realizing that! I thought I was the only one. May I ask if you are female? I'm one myself and I think that issue is lost on lots of male readers.


Nope, I'm a dude. I was even the one to point it out to my wife. I have one female friend who at first HATED the series because she thought it was a giant anti-woman clusterfark. When I explained this to her about Cersei, she stopped and stared and got quiet. Three months later she's a total addict to the show lol.

Brienne's one of my favorite characters. I got a biatchoked up with one of her last scenes in book 5, if you know what scene I mean. She just keeps trying hard to do the right thing and be loyal and no one treats her right.

I like a bit of all the characters, even the darker ones, except maybe Gregor and a couple others. Bronn's farking awesome and cracks me up. He might even give Chuck Norris a run for his money.
 
2013-03-28 06:46:52 PM  
*biatchoked up

/what the shiat, it auto-corrected thinking I was writing biatch? Haha
 
2013-03-28 06:47:51 PM  
fffuuuuuuuu

A little choked up ARE YOU HAPPY NOW FARK
 
2013-03-28 06:53:44 PM  

torusXL: ARE YOU HAPPY NOW FARK


YOU WIN OR YOU boobies
 
2013-03-28 06:56:25 PM  

torusXL: shortymac: Thank you for realizing that! I thought I was the only one. May I ask if you are female? I'm one myself and I think that issue is lost on lots of male readers.

Nope, I'm a dude. I was even the one to point it out to my wife. I have one female friend who at first HATED the series because she thought it was a giant anti-woman clusterfark. When I explained this to her about Cersei, she stopped and stared and got quiet. Three months later she's a total addict to the show lol.

Brienne's one of my favorite characters. I got a biatchoked up with one of her last scenes in book 5, if you know what scene I mean. She just keeps trying hard to do the right thing and be loyal and no one treats her right.

I like a bit of all the characters, even the darker ones, except maybe Gregor and a couple others. Bronn's farking awesome and cracks me up. He might even give Chuck Norris a run for his money.


I love Brienne too, she reminds me of me in High School, the awkward dorky one that struggles to "fit in".
 
2013-03-28 07:15:41 PM  

dragonchild: torusXL: ARE YOU HAPPY NOW FARK

YOU WIN OR YOU boobies


Haha awesome.
While we're at it on the gender role concepts in GoT, I totally think your blogpost is the bees knees.
 
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