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(Reuters)   As "Obamacare" marks its third anniversary, it's becoming increasingly clear who the real winners are under this law: healthcare lobbyists, of course   (reuters.com) divider line 298
    More: Obvious, obamacare, Amy Klobuchar, National Coalition Party, America's Health Insurance Plans, National Federation of Independent Business, Medtronic, lobbying, medical device  
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1423 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Mar 2013 at 11:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-25 12:12:09 PM  

Bravo Two: if you'll excuse me


There is no excuse for you.
 
2013-03-25 12:12:48 PM  

Bravo Two: verbaltoxin: Probably not, but who cares? Either way it sums up the opposition to single payer: f*ck you, got mine.

You mean that the reality that people don't give a shiat about each other and are just as much driven by survival of the fittest as any other beast on this planet? And people will generally look out for themselves and their closest niche and ignore everyone else? *Gasp* say it ain't so! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do because ain't no one else going to come along and pay my bills for me.


And those same people, in defiance of your hopeless cynicism, rose above their self-interests long enough to ratify the US Constitution, build rocket ships to the Moon, and in other countries, set up a publicly-funded healthcare structure - because, as it turns out, giving a f*ck or two about people you don't know goes a long way towards your own betterment.

But keep on keepin' on there, while people crowd our emergency rooms for health care, getting those costs passed along to you via your insurer.
 
2013-03-25 12:13:20 PM  

Bravo Two: verbaltoxin: Probably not, but who cares? Either way it sums up the opposition to single payer: f*ck you, got mine.

You mean that the reality that people don't give a shiat about each other and are just as much driven by survival of the fittest as any other beast on this planet? And people will generally look out for themselves and their closest niche and ignore everyone else? *Gasp* say it ain't so! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do because ain't no one else going to come along and pay my bills for me.


Be careful! You may have to use Roads, Electricity and Sewage during your work day!

Wouldn't want to use any of those darn "Socialized" dangerous programs to assist you in your daily life!
 
2013-03-25 12:25:13 PM  

Bravo Two: You mean that the reality that people don't give a shiat about each other and are just as much driven by survival of the fittest as any other beast on this planet? And people will generally look out for themselves and their closest niche and ignore everyone else? *Gasp* say it ain't so! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do because ain't no one else going to come along and pay my bills for me.


Exactly.  We are beasts, and roll around in our own filth on what is almost certainly a prison ship.  Humanity is a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analog nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning.  You must fight without honor for whatever worthless creed drives you, for what is honor or honesty, beyond weakness we have agreed to indulge?
 
2013-03-25 12:25:15 PM  

kiwimoogle84: I'm just against this whole idea that everyone gets the same care


I just wanted to quote this as something someone actually said.
 
2013-03-25 12:29:34 PM  

hillary: History farts in your general direction, silly American person. Your mother was a humpster and your father smelled of elderberries.


Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
 
2013-03-25 12:29:39 PM  

kiwimoogle84: verbaltoxin: At issue are a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices valued at $30 billion over the next 10 years, a $100 billion health insurance premium tax and the employer mandate, which opponents say could cripple many small business with costly fines.

*Sighs* That's because your ability to see a doctor shouldn't be dependent upon your boss' ability to buy an insurance plan! People cry "Socialism!" but are seriously okay with actuaries, shareholders, and their own f*cking boss deciding whether you live or die?

I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.


Look, I don't think you are a troll.  At a minimum, the amount of effort you have to expend to keep the arguments up mean you aren't a successful troll, and it seems like you are earnest.

Unfortunately, you are also horribly misguided.  Under the current law, you can purchase your own insurance.  That insurance will place it's own requirements on what it will pay doctors.  You want premium coverage, you can pray a premium penny to get it.  You get to decide, based on your income, whether you live or die.

What the government has placed in the ACA is a coverage floor, minimum requirements for plans to pass the new insurance credits on income tax.  If you don't meet that, you don't get the credit and have to pay higher taxes.  That's the way the mandate has been structured from day one, it's why the IRS is the enforcement agency, and the Supreme Court agreed.  Businesses have similar tax credits they can qualify for.

Non of this places an additional strain on the providers.  Yes, there are some poorly informed, paranoid, conservative doctors that have come out saying it will hurt their business, but it will actually place a positive pressure on demand due to the additional preventative care coverage and increase in the number of insured.  The negative pressure will mostly be against insurance, which is why they have been a leading lobbyist against the ACA, and those who will fund the measure with increased taxes.

Nobody likes increased taxes, but the truth is that the taxes don't actually place pressure do decrease jobs.  That's not how health care taxes work, or any economic industry with entrenched demand (like food production).  Instead, the econometrics show quite clearly that those taxed will have the same demand and thus pass charges across the industry, which will rebalance costs to fill the drain.  This is how most economists, including the CBO, measure the effects here.  And this actually shows that once balanced, the industry will have a slower growth rate than currently.  Why?

Back to insurers.  They are the ones most likely to lose jobs here.  They do not add value to the service and drain the system for profits.  Low value insurance will move to the state-run pools over time, which will have the profit motive mostly removed.  If we had moved to single-payer, it would be completely removed, and since net take after payout would not drain much in either system, year-over-year, the allocations to risk will grow and total cost to consumer will actually fall.

Everything you have said in this thread appears to have been filtered through Fox News or a similar entertainment source geared towards misrepresentation in the name of conservatism.  It is not acceptable to lie about something this important, and you should really feel quite ashamed of yourself.
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2013-03-25 12:30:58 PM  

kiwimoogle84: I'm just against this whole idea that everyone gets the same care and Uncle Sam decides exactly what that care entails.


Then quit telling people you've read the bill.
 
2013-03-25 12:31:43 PM  

verbaltoxin: Bravo Two: verbaltoxin: Probably not, but who cares? Either way it sums up the opposition to single payer: f*ck you, got mine.

You mean that the reality that people don't give a shiat about each other and are just as much driven by survival of the fittest as any other beast on this planet? And people will generally look out for themselves and their closest niche and ignore everyone else? *Gasp* say it ain't so! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do because ain't no one else going to come along and pay my bills for me.

And those same people, in defiance of your hopeless cynicism, rose above their self-interests long enough to ratify the US Constitution, build rocket ships to the Moon, and in other countries, set up a publicly-funded healthcare structure - because, as it turns out, giving a f*ck or two about people you don't know goes a long way towards your own betterment.

But keep on keepin' on there, while people crowd our emergency rooms for health care, getting those costs passed along to you via your insurer.


To be fair, I've been arguing since the beginning that Fixing healthcare would take a major overhaul of everything from the way companies are allowed to price equipment to the way pharmaceutical companies are granted patents and patent extensions, an overhaul of the patent system itself, tort reform, and everything in between.

It's also going to have to have a major change in the attitudes Americans have towards medical care in general, and a shift from using healthcare systems as a mechanic to fix everything that's wrong with you while you abuse yourself towards understanding that it's your responsibility to take care of your body and only use medical services when absolutely necessary.

Single payer may be more efficient, but when you have so many bottom-feeders raping the system before it even gets to the consumer, It's going to turn into a giant flustercluck.

Effecting a lifestyle change is going to be difficult, and not the least bit because of the American Way of Life™ and our propensity for fast food and poor habits fed by companies that push vices via our Nanny Box.

Case in point: I gave up fast food and soda, and most prepackaged, prepacked foods in favor of making shiat myself and learning to drink water. It was a huge change, but even after only 6 months, I feel better, I look better, and I can't stand the taste of processed foods and crap.  It can be done, but I had to want it.

Yeah, yeah, I know, CSB. Anyway, my bottom line, as much as you guys like to malign me for it, is that the fix that will benefit most Americans can't be accomplished by legislation and bandaids, it will take a huge shift in society and the way just about everything is done related to health and well-being. Also, while we're on the topic of social shifts, the "fark you I got mine" attitude can also be extended to this farked up ideal we have that puts self above family and leads to people not knowing how to relate to each other or work together to make shiat work. 

Oh well, I'll go back to snarking and making sarcastic remarks since everyone is able to biatch about no one working together until they have to recognize first their own culpability.
 
2013-03-25 12:32:10 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: That's not how anything works. Go spout your insanity elsewhere.


So it doesn't:
1) fine people that dont have healthcare
2) force people without healthcare into Medicare
3) increase taxes on the medical field
4) force insurance companies to make bad business decisions (ie: insure people they know will cost more then they'll ever bring in)

If it doesn't do that, what does it do??
 
2013-03-25 12:33:12 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: The Heritage Foundation/Republican Party's health care plan from 1995 is a big corporate giveaway? I'm farking shocked. But thanks to our conservative politicians on both sides of the aisle, a real solution was never forthcominG



Exactly. I feel like I only defend Obamacare because of the stupid myths I hear about it like "It's Socialism" or whatever other nonsense Fox News has crammed Into their viewership's weak brains--I honestly have to remind myself often it isn't the plan I really even advocate.
 
2013-03-25 12:33:28 PM  

kiwimoogle84: verbaltoxin: At issue are a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices valued at $30 billion over the next 10 years, a $100 billion health insurance premium tax and the employer mandate, which opponents say could cripple many small business with costly fines.

*Sighs* That's because your ability to see a doctor shouldn't be dependent upon your boss' ability to buy an insurance plan! People cry "Socialism!" but are seriously okay with actuaries, shareholders, and their own f*cking boss deciding whether you live or die?

I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.


But you're A-OK with an insurance company deciding that?  Amazing.  And before you say that they would never do that, take a look at the stories out there of people being dropped from their insurance once they REALLY need it and/or being told their policy doesn't cover whatever life saving treatment may be out there.
 
2013-03-25 12:34:59 PM  

Bravo Two: Single payer may be more efficient, but when you have so many bottom-feeders raping the system before it even gets to the consumer, It's going to turn into a giant flustercluck.

Effecting a lifestyle change is going to be difficult, and not the least bit because of the American Way of Life™ and our propensity for fast food and poor habits fed by companies that push vices via our Nanny Box.


This line is pushed by people who are against doing anything in the face of the fact that Americans are not unique in this, but somehow fat white people drinking soda and eating poutine does not make public health care in Canada not work.

Half of it's a chicken and egg problem; these pervasive health problems are health problems and having reasonable access to health care - which many of the people who are most affected by these "lifestyle" issues do not - is an important step to alleviating them. In other words, you're backwards.
 
2013-03-25 12:35:32 PM  

verbaltoxin: BarkingUnicorn: verbaltoxin: At issue are a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices valued at $30 billion over the next 10 years, a $100 billion health insurance premium tax and the employer mandate, which opponents say could cripple many small business with costly fines.

*Sighs* That's because your ability to see a doctor shouldn't be dependent upon your boss' ability to buy an insurance plan! People cry "Socialism!" but are seriously okay with actuaries, shareholders, and their own f*cking boss deciding whether you live or die?

Isn't it really your health care providers who decide whether you live or die?

That depends. Can you get coverage in the first place? If the answer's "no," then you're pretty much f*cked if you have any condition requiring long term care. You're doubly f*cked if it's an emergency that requires additional, in-patient treatment. If you can't pay, a health care provider might never even see you.

Suffice to say, at this point it's insane to say the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, France and a whole host of other nations can run a single payer healthcare program, and we can't. The largest economy in the world with the planet's reserve currency can't operate and fund single payer?

Really?

Really?

Really?


But.. Immigrants, or something!
 
2013-03-25 12:35:44 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 4) force insurance companies to make bad business decisions (ie: insure people they know will cost more then they'll ever bring in)


Actually simply having insurance has shown to reduce the cost of care.

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2007/anderson-hospital-charg es .html

Hospitals do not charge every patient the same price for medical care. Uninsured patients and those who pay with their own funds are charged 2.5 times more for hospital care than those covered by health insurance and more than 3 times the allowable amount paid by Medicare, according to a study byhttp://faculty.jhsph.edu/?F=Gerard&L=Anderson" style="-webkit-transition: background-color 0.1s linear, border-color 0.1s linear, color 0.1s linear, opacity 0.1s linear; word-wrap: break-word; color: rgb(27, 71, 129); text-decoration: none; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-family: proxima-nova, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22px;">Gerard F. Anderson, PhD, a health economist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
 
2013-03-25 12:36:12 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So we are going to scrap the exchanges and just give everyone Medicare? You don't even know what Obamacare is do you?

Do you know exactly what it is? 'cause the people who help make it law don't even know. I know what they tried to do, and I know how it is unfolding. What this will end up being is anyone's guess but what has happened so far is a cruel joke and a complete waste of money and time.


Tell that to the millions of people that are now able to get insurance or stay on their parents' insurance that otherwise were not able to.
 
2013-03-25 12:36:59 PM  

TimonC346: A Dark Evil Omen: The Heritage Foundation/Republican Party's health care plan from 1995 is a big corporate giveaway? I'm farking shocked. But thanks to our conservative politicians on both sides of the aisle, a real solution was never forthcominG


Exactly. I feel like I only defend Obamacare because of the stupid myths I hear about it like "It's Socialism" or whatever other nonsense Fox News has crammed Into their viewership's weak brains--I honestly have to remind myself often it isn't the plan I really even advocate.


It's an improvement over the status quo ante, and that's all. I don't accept that it's this abomination of Communism that will doom your grandmother to the death panels and FEMA camps, but neither is it any more than a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.
 
2013-03-25 12:38:16 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The My Little Pony Killer: That's not how anything works. Go spout your insanity elsewhere.

So it doesn't:
1) fine people that dont have healthcare
2) force people without healthcare into Medicare
3) increase taxes on the medical field
4) force insurance companies to make bad business decisions (ie: insure people they know will cost more then they'll ever bring in)

If it doesn't do that, what does it do??


Medicare? I thought it expanded Medicaid, not Medicare?
 
2013-03-25 12:38:43 PM  

wholedamnshow: The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So we are going to scrap the exchanges and just give everyone Medicare? You don't even know what Obamacare is do you?

Do you know exactly what it is? 'cause the people who help make it law don't even know. I know what they tried to do, and I know how it is unfolding. What this will end up being is anyone's guess but what has happened so far is a cruel joke and a complete waste of money and time.

Tell that to the millions of people that are now able to get insurance or stay on their parents' insurance that otherwise were not able to.


He's talking about the insurance industry who otherwise would be happy to let these folks die if they don't contribute to the bottom line.
 
2013-03-25 12:38:54 PM  

hillbillypharmacist: Bravo Two: You mean that the reality that people don't give a shiat about each other and are just as much driven by survival of the fittest as any other beast on this planet? And people will generally look out for themselves and their closest niche and ignore everyone else? *Gasp* say it ain't so! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do because ain't no one else going to come along and pay my bills for me.

Exactly.  We are beasts, and roll around in our own filth on what is almost certainly a prison ship.  Humanity is a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analog nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning.  You must fight without honor for whatever worthless creed drives you, for what is honor or honesty, beyond weakness we have agreed to indulge?


I have you farkied as "I can't remember if he's retarded or not" and every time I see you post it does nothing to clarify the situation. WHICH IS IT DAMMIT?!
 
2013-03-25 12:38:59 PM  

kiwimoogle84: verbaltoxin: Jackson Herring: kiwimoogle84: I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.

oh my god are you for real

like really really for real

Probably not, but who cares? Either way it sums up the opposition to single payer: f*ck you, got mine.

That's not my argument at all. This will kill more people than it helps, and quality of care drops dramatically when reimbursement rates drop through the floor.


It's really clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
2013-03-25 12:39:39 PM  

Masta Kronix: Actually simply having insurance has shown to reduce the cost of care.


That's not exactly the right way to look at it, really.  The hospitals charge less for insured patients because they'll get paid.  They charge more for uninsured patients because most of them won't pay, and the ones that do pay pay more to make up the difference.  Probably this discrepancy will even out when everyone has insurance, one way or the other.  Accounting for hospitals will probably get some degree easier.

But it does reduce the cost of care simply by making preventative care and regular family doctor care possible for millions who simply went to the goddam ER when they got sick.
 
2013-03-25 12:39:40 PM  

pinual: I work for a small business with many VH employees and a small staff of salaried employees.

We are just going to end up paying the fines because it works out cheaper then trying to ensure everyone. At least for the first few years. The fact that they tied the fine to insurance premium cost probably means in a few years the fine will be three or four times as high. Then we will just close out doors.


Do you always blame the government for your failures and shortcomings?
 
2013-03-25 12:40:30 PM  

evilmrsock: I have you farkied as "I can't remember if he's retarded or not" and every time I see you post it does nothing to clarify the situation. WHICH IS IT DAMMIT?!


Not retarded ;)
 
2013-03-25 12:41:01 PM  
Bravo Two:

TL;DR:

I am working on being perfect and all the rest of you flawed motherfarkers can just die.  It's your fault I have to pay for anything and if all you stupid motherfarkers would be all healthy or off yourselves, my life would be great.  But it's all your fault.  Now excuse me whilst I sweep my robes about me and make to the office.  Fark you, I got mine.
 
2013-03-25 12:41:07 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 2) force people without healthcare into Medicare


First, you mean health insurance, not healthcare. Second, why would a person without health insurance need to be forced into Medicare? Were I uninsured, I would run at full speed directly to whatever office could get me on Medicare if that was an option. Third, no. PPACA doesn't do that.
 
2013-03-25 12:41:09 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The My Little Pony Killer: That's not how anything works. Go spout your insanity elsewhere.

So it doesn't:
1) fine people that dont have healthcare
2) force people without healthcare into Medicare
3) increase taxes on the medical field
4) force insurance companies to make bad business decisions (ie: insure people they know will cost more then they'll ever bring in)

If it doesn't do that, what does it do??


1)  Only if you make a bunch of money.  The bar is at 50k for a single earner.  If you make less than 50k, no fine.

2)  Uh, no.  It expands eligibility for MedicAID.  Which is different from MedicARE.  It doesn't "force" anyone into anything.

3)  Sure, though "the medical field" is pretty vague.

4)  Lots of people cost more than they'll bring in.  It's pooled risk.  Being forced to not drop people once they get sick is a good thing.  Otherwise, what the fark is insurance good for?
 
2013-03-25 12:42:26 PM  

hillbillypharmacist: Masta Kronix: Actually simply having insurance has shown to reduce the cost of care.

That's not exactly the right way to look at it, really.  The hospitals charge less for insured patients because they'll get paid.  They charge more for uninsured patients because most of them won't pay, and the ones that do pay pay more to make up the difference.  Probably this discrepancy will even out when everyone has insurance, one way or the other.  Accounting for hospitals will probably get some degree easier.

But it does reduce the cost of care simply by making preventative care and regular family doctor care possible for millions who simply went to the goddam ER when they got sick.


So since more patients will have insurance, the hospitals will charge less since they know they'll get paid, hence lowering the overall cost of care since they won't be charging the higher rates as often or at all.
 
2013-03-25 12:43:09 PM  

verbaltoxin: kiwimoogle84: verbaltoxin: Jackson Herring: kiwimoogle84: I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.

oh my god are you for real

like really really for real

Probably not, but who cares? Either way it sums up the opposition to single payer: f*ck you, got mine.

That's not my argument at all. This will kill more people than it helps, and quality of care drops dramatically when reimbursement rates drop through the floor.

Yes that's why people in Canada are dying by the thousands each day, because of no access to healthcare.

Wait a sec....that's not how it's happening at all!


Bachmann said it will literally kill people.  If she said it, then it must be true.  Or is it the other way around?
 
2013-03-25 12:45:44 PM  

Masta Kronix: So since more patients will have insurance, the hospitals will charge less since they know they'll get paid, hence lowering the overall cost of care since they won't be charging the higher rates as often or at all.


Yes.  Though if the hospital charges it but the patient doesn't pay, does it count as a cost?

Part of the problem is that all these dollars are very shell-gamey.  Shoot, most insurance pays a DRG (which is a flat fee for an admission reason) and so what goes on the hospital bill basically means squat.  You go in for a CABG, hospital gets $35k, no more no less.
 
2013-03-25 12:46:06 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Bravo Two: Single payer may be more efficient, but when you have so many bottom-feeders raping the system before it even gets to the consumer, It's going to turn into a giant flustercluck.

Effecting a lifestyle change is going to be difficult, and not the least bit because of the American Way of Life™ and our propensity for fast food and poor habits fed by companies that push vices via our Nanny Box.

This line is pushed by people who are against doing anything in the face of the fact that Americans are not unique in this, but somehow fat white people drinking soda and eating poutine does not make public health care in Canada not work.

Half of it's a chicken and egg problem; these pervasive health problems are health problems and having reasonable access to health care - which many of the people who are most affected by these "lifestyle" issues do not - is an important step to alleviating them. In other words, you're backwards.


I never said that it made public healthcare not work, nor did I argue that it would fail if lifestyle changes weren't enacted.

What I was trying to get at is the single-payer health care system would have problems here because of all of the issues mentioned above:

- Pharmaceutical companies that take advantage of a broken patent system to block the production of cheaper medications In favor of profits
- Medical equipment companies that overprice their equipment because it's medical
- The resultant total cost of running medical systems and services passed along and imposed on insured and uninsured Consumers in an uneven manner due to volume-negotiated prices
- The cost of medical malpractice insurance
- The methods by which people have access to and expect to use healthcare services (Let's face it, if you have the flu, going to the doctor and demanding tests for everything from HIV to Down Syndrome just because you want your doctor to be thorough or you'll sue! doesn't help things.)
- The general availability and attitudes towards medical care in general

etc. etc. etc.

Existing issues with lifestyles and the way humans tend to behave with addicting foods/substances that harm their health are a related topic to that of providing healthcare simply because the more we can reduce the need for lifestyle-related medical issues, the less burden is on the system as a whole, and the more we can free up medical care to tend to those who really need it for non-self-induced problems.

It's sort of a chicken and the egg problem, except that there are dozens of facets to it that need to all be addressed comprehensively. Just duct-taping the system by mandating insurance and so on is ultimately going to be a bit like having five guys bailing water on the titanic.
 
2013-03-25 12:46:10 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: TimonC346: A Dark Evil Omen: The Heritage Foundation/Republican Party's health care plan from 1995 is a big corporate giveaway? I'm farking shocked. But thanks to our conservative politicians on both sides of the aisle, a real solution was never forthcominG


Exactly. I feel like I only defend Obamacare because of the stupid myths I hear about it like "It's Socialism" or whatever other nonsense Fox News has crammed Into their viewership's weak brains--I honestly have to remind myself often it isn't the plan I really even advocate.

It's an improvement over the status quo ante, and that's all. I don't accept that it's this abomination of Communism that will doom your grandmother to the death panels and FEMA camps, but neither is it any more than a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.


It's a shame that much of this country is so brainwashed into fearing single-payer systems.  It would have been nice to circumvent Obamacare and avoid that growing pain altogether.
 
2013-03-25 12:48:20 PM  

kiwimoogle84: vpb: The Stealth Hippopotamus: In other news: People who are good at playing the game will continue to be good at the game no matter what rule changes you make.

Obamacare or ACA was an unfunny joke played on the American people; can't afford healthcare? No worries we'll just fine you (dont worry you can cover that right?) and give you medicare. 'cause we all know medicare is great and is the model of efficiency. And then ACA will make things more affordable by increasing costs!! Cause that's how economies works!

So we are going to scrap the exchanges and just give everyone Medicare?  You don't even know what Obamacare is do you?

Actually, he's not wrong. Hospitals and doctors are going to be reimbursed at contracted government rates, which is pennies on the ten dollars. And since it'll be a law that they are FORCED to accept it, quality of care is going to suffer. Everyone will get basic services but will either have to have costshare in order to have more expensive services, or if you're really sick or over a certain age, you'll just get "end of life" counseling if covering your care is more expensive than it's worth.

I've read the bill. It's not going to end well for ANYONE, except maybe the government.


My doctor was not happy when she began to make the changes she had to make.  She didn't go into detail, but her normally happy demeanor disappeared, she was all business and couldn't believe how difficult it ended up being on her and her staff.

She also posted a letter to her patients, warning them that threats to the staff will be reported to authorities and those who make them can find another physician.

She's a board certified internist.  Shame, really.

/don't know the details
 
2013-03-25 12:48:53 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two:

TL;DR:

I am working on being perfect and all the rest of you flawed motherfarkers can just die.  It's your fault I have to pay for anything and if all you stupid motherfarkers would be all healthy or off yourselves, my life would be great.  But it's all your fault.  Now excuse me whilst I sweep my robes about me and make to the office.  Fark you, I got mine.


Bravo, Bravo!

Now, remind me how we as a species managed to survive for the past 10+ thousand years without...

You know, I actually have to say, as I go back and reread and consider history, the more I am reminded that humankind, like other species, has always tended towards social packs/tribes of like-minded folk that are interdependent, so I guess I'm wrong on that account anyway.

Carry on.
 
2013-03-25 12:51:28 PM  

kiwimoogle84: Jackson Herring: can't afford healthcare? No worries we'll just fine you

wow overt lying on fark dot com, must be a day

He's actually correct. If small business employers can't afford the plans that they are being forced to offer, they can opt out and pay a penalty instead.


We have a different definition of small business.
 
2013-03-25 12:52:01 PM  

Counter_Intelligent: kiwimoogle84: Then explain to me the clause about "end of life" counseling if you're over a certain age and have a serious ailment. Grandma has cancer? Instead of treating her, we'll just counsel her about her upcoming demise.

That's IN THE BILL.

I'm not a foil hat wearer or anything, but I've worked in government healthcare (Medicare and Medi-Cal claims) long enough to know that if you get too expensive to insure, they'll cut you off.

Oh shiat, the death panels!!  OoooOOOoooOO~~~!!!!


imanewbie.com
 
2013-03-25 12:57:18 PM  

Bravo Two: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two:

TL;DR:

I am working on being perfect and all the rest of you flawed motherfarkers can just die.  It's your fault I have to pay for anything and if all you stupid motherfarkers would be all healthy or off yourselves, my life would be great.  But it's all your fault.  Now excuse me whilst I sweep my robes about me and make to the office.  Fark you, I got mine.

Bravo, Bravo!

Now, remind me how we as a species managed to survive for the past 10+ thousand years without...

You know, I actually have to say, as I go back and reread and consider history, the more I am reminded that humankind, like other species, has always tended towards social packs/tribes of like-minded folk that are interdependent, so I guess I'm wrong on that account anyway.

Carry on.


Joke


You.

That's what YOU sound like.  To paraphrase even further,


Bravo Two thinks that all health problems are brought on by the people themselves.  People that don't take care of themselves are solely responsible for every single health care cost.  If ONLY people would be perfect like me, this wouldn't happen.  Fark you I got mine.


Got it now?
 
2013-03-25 12:57:58 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Obamacare or ACA was an unfunny joke played on the American people; can't afford healthcare? No worries we'll just fine you (dont worry you can cover that right?)


no it doesn't that work that way at all. If you can afford it you are not fined and your insurance gets subsidized. You are wrong.
 
2013-03-25 12:58:49 PM  

EyeballKid: pinual: I work for a small business with many VH employees and a small staff of salaried employees.

We are just going to end up paying the fines because it works out cheaper then trying to ensure everyone. At least for the first few years. The fact that they tied the fine to insurance premium cost probably means in a few years the fine will be three or four times as high. Then we will just close out doors.

Do you always blame the government for your failures and shortcomings?


This is the third time I've seen such wise-ass dismissal of a business' problem in this thread.  It's in every thread about the ACA.  It's no different from the "fark you if you can't afford your own health care or food" bullshiat. Work harder and smarter; learn to manage money better, etc.; and if you can't, we don't need you and you can just DIAF.

Works fine if you're one of the people who doesn't need that employer.

I hope we eventually get health care off the backs of employers.  That will the biggest business tax break ever.
 
2013-03-25 01:03:11 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two:

TL;DR:

I am working on being perfect and all the rest of you flawed motherfarkers can just die.  It's your fault I have to pay for anything and if all you stupid motherfarkers would be all healthy or off yourselves, my life would be great.  But it's all your fault.  Now excuse me whilst I sweep my robes about me and make to the office.  Fark you, I got mine.

Bravo, Bravo!

Now, remind me how we as a species managed to survive for the past 10+ thousand years without...

You know, I actually have to say, as I go back and reread and consider history, the more I am reminded that humankind, like other species, has always tended towards social packs/tribes of like-minded folk that are interdependent, so I guess I'm wrong on that account anyway.

Carry on.

Joke


You.

That's what YOU sound like.  To paraphrase even further,


Bravo Two thinks that all health problems are brought on by the people themselves.  People that don't take care of themselves are solely responsible for every single health care cost.  If ONLY people would be perfect like me, this wouldn't happen.  Fark you I got mine.


Got it now?


I got it, but that wasn't the intention of what I was saying as I outlined in previous posts.  The two are separate. People need to take care of themselves, AND we need to stop people from raping the system.  Make more sense now?
 
2013-03-25 01:10:55 PM  

Bravo Two: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Bravo Two:

TL;DR:

I am working on being perfect and all the rest of you flawed motherfarkers can just die.  It's your fault I have to pay for anything and if all you stupid motherfarkers would be all healthy or off yourselves, my life would be great.  But it's all your fault.  Now excuse me whilst I sweep my robes about me and make to the office.  Fark you, I got mine.

Bravo, Bravo!

Now, remind me how we as a species managed to survive for the past 10+ thousand years without...

You know, I actually have to say, as I go back and reread and consider history, the more I am reminded that humankind, like other species, has always tended towards social packs/tribes of like-minded folk that are interdependent, so I guess I'm wrong on that account anyway.

Carry on.

Joke


You.

That's what YOU sound like.  To paraphrase even further,


Bravo Two thinks that all health problems are brought on by the people themselves.  People that don't take care of themselves are solely responsible for every single health care cost.  If ONLY people would be perfect like me, this wouldn't happen.  Fark you I got mine.


Got it now?

I got it, but that wasn't the intention of what I was saying as I outlined in previous posts.  The two are separate. People need to take care of themselves, AND we need to stop people from raping the system.  Make more sense now?


Well obviously you're not suggesting that everyone obtains medical certification. So it's implicit in your suggestion that people take care of themselves do so - to some extent - by relying on others. The difference is where we draw our lines on what's an acceptable level of reliance.
 
2013-03-25 01:13:47 PM  

Bravo Two:  People need to take care of themselves, AND we need to stop people from raping the system.  Make more sense now?


Yes and no.  Those two things have ALWAYS been issues with providing healthcare.  However, "people raping the system" is a very small part compared to the poor and un/under educated being forced to use ERs for treatment, forced to have negligible to non-existent healthcare, and no prospects for getting either other than 'hurr durr get a jerb moran'.  Even MORE disturbing are the number of mid range households forced into poverty because they couldn't get coverage for a pre-existing condition which then required treatment and took everything they worked for before medicaid would kick in.  Is that ok with you?  Good working class people having to give up and sell of everything they have to meet poverty levels just because they are sick?  What if it's brain cancer?  Do you think their family doesn't suffer enough just to deal with that?

Your two pronged focus is off the mark.  Healthcare should be made available to everyone regardless, and after we start helping the people in this country STAY ALIVE, then we can focus on HOW they make a living.  The two are not mutually exclusive, but one IS more important than the other.  The way I'm reading your statement is it's mainly welfare queens and them nig**rs/messicans/anyone who isn't YOU that's the problem.

Any you're wrong.
 
2013-03-25 01:23:57 PM  
Bah! You motherfarkers! You scared off kiwimoogle!

That guy was amazing.

Perhaps he met his demise at the hands of...

...the Death Panels!
 
2013-03-25 01:26:27 PM  

Masta Kronix: Actually simply having insurance has shown to reduce the cost of care.

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2007/anderson-hospital-charg es .html

Hospitals do not charge every patient the same price for medical care. Uninsured patients and those who pay with their own funds are charged 2.5 times more for hospital care than those covered by health insurance and more than 3 times the allowable amount paid by Medicare, according to a study byhttp://faculty.jhsph.edu/?F=Gerard&L=Anderson" style="-webkit-transition: background-color 0.1s linear, border-color 0.1s linear, color 0.1s linear, opacity 0.1s linear; word-wrap: break-word; color: rgb(27, 71, 129); text-decoration: none; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-family: proxima-nova, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22px;">Gerard F. Anderson, PhD, a health economist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.



Hospitals != Insurance companies. And there were much cheaper ways of fixing this.

Dafatone: 1) Only if you make a bunch of money. The bar is at 50k for a single earner. If you make less than 50k, no fine.


So it'll increase the cost of Medicad. We got the money. right?

Dafatone: 2) Uh, no. It expands eligibility for MedicAID. Which is different from MedicARE. It doesn't "force" anyone into anything.


Ok you got me there. I flip those all the time. My bad. And no it doesn't force you, you can pay the fine. So I guess the word force is wrong. Let's try punish

Dafatone: 3) Sure, though "the medical field" is pretty vague.


Would you like healthcare field better? It is pretty vague but so is the law. And you are admitting it will increase costs?! Is that what "sure" means?

Dafatone: 4) Lots of people cost more than they'll bring in. It's pooled risk. Being forced to not drop people once they get sick is a good thing. Otherwise, what the fark is insurance good for?


Pooled risk is a wonderful thing. I understand that but it doesn't help when you know that a group of people are going to be a negative! And paying a fine to the government isn't going to offset the costs of people waiting till they need insurance to go buy it. Insurance for people is just hedging your bets. I plan on being healthy but I'm not about to risk everything on the roll of the dice that I will always be healthy. And "you'll just get dropped" is bs. Yes there are people who get dropped and yes you hear about them but that nothing compared to the millions of people that insurance works for every day. I'll put Big Insurance's record up against the VA's record any day.

Yes there are people out there that need help and I'm all for helping them. This just wasn't the way.
 
2013-03-25 01:26:53 PM  
Yes and once its in full swing no Republican will ever get elected by threatening to shut it down.

Make hay while the sun shines boys...
 
2013-03-25 01:28:04 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: EyeballKid: pinual: I work for a small business with many VH employees and a small staff of salaried employees.

We are just going to end up paying the fines because it works out cheaper then trying to ensure everyone. At least for the first few years. The fact that they tied the fine to insurance premium cost probably means in a few years the fine will be three or four times as high. Then we will just close out doors.

Do you always blame the government for your failures and shortcomings?

This is the third time I've seen such wise-ass dismissal of a business' problem in this thread.  It's in every thread about the ACA.  It's no different from the "fark you if you can't afford your own health care or food" bullshiat. Work harder and smarter; learn to manage money better, etc.; and if you can't, we don't need you and you can just DIAF.

Works fine if you're one of the people who doesn't need that employer.

I hope we eventually get health care off the backs of employers.  That will the biggest business tax break ever.


Why aren't businesses in favor of single-payer for this very reason?

I honestly don't know why the business community isn't the one advocating for single payer to free them to focus on their business.
 
2013-03-25 01:30:36 PM  
kiwimoogle84:

I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.

This is some funny shiat right here.
 
2013-03-25 01:32:52 PM  
As a medical underwriter who will be losing his job by 01/01/2014 due to this new healthcare law, I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-03-25 01:41:09 PM  

kiwimoogle84: verbaltoxin: At issue are a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices valued at $30 billion over the next 10 years, a $100 billion health insurance premium tax and the employer mandate, which opponents say could cripple many small business with costly fines.

*Sighs* That's because your ability to see a doctor shouldn't be dependent upon your boss' ability to buy an insurance plan! People cry "Socialism!" but are seriously okay with actuaries, shareholders, and their own f*cking boss deciding whether you live or die?

I'm not ok with THE GOVERNMENT deciding whether I live or die.


I'm not OK with weapons grade idiocy.

The difference between us is that I'm actually having to deal with it.
 
2013-03-25 01:41:55 PM  

HawaiiE: I hope we eventually get health care off the backs of employers. That will the biggest business tax break ever.

Why aren't businesses in favor of single-payer for this very reason?

I honestly don't know why the business community isn't the one advocating for single payer to free them to focus on their business.


What makes you think businesses don't favor single-payer?  Even Forbes mag has been beating the single-payer drum since last year. But it's a much bigger lightning rod than gay marriage, a subject upon which most businesses still keep their mouths shut.

Also, health insurance is still a significant recruiting and retention tool, if your business can afford it.
 
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