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(Guardian)   The ultimate fallout from yesterday's Grand Prix? One of the most respected and well liked drivers may have raced his last F1 race   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 83
    More: Sad, Mark Webber, F1 Racing, Red Bull, Vettel, overtaking, world championship, Nico Rosberg  
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2871 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Mar 2013 at 7:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-25 07:57:37 AM
It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.
 
2013-03-25 07:59:51 AM

KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.


F1 is a different beast, took me a while to get a handle on it as well.

Vettel sounds like a douche, claiming he didn't hear the command to maintain position? He's just trying to think of anything to save his ass at this point.
 
2013-03-25 08:07:12 AM
You can be a wanker and win, or you can be a wanker and lose.
It sounds like both of them lost.
 
2013-03-25 08:07:20 AM
I won't have a driver to cheer for if Webber retires.

I'll still have plenty of drivers to cheer against, however.
 
2013-03-25 08:23:41 AM
"When you are fitted in a racing car and you race to win, second or third place is not enough." Ayrton Senna
 
2013-03-25 08:23:58 AM

KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.


No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.
 
2013-03-25 08:34:13 AM
F1 thrives on this crap, it always has.

While I sympathize with Webber, actually after that article I don't as much anymore.  He's trying to get face by playing the 'good soldier' card, but the fact of the matter is, that card is what ended up with him being the #2 driver in the first place.  He's not a WDC calibre driver, never has been, never will be (unless a stroke of lightning happens to him like happened to Button/Brawn).
 
2013-03-25 08:37:02 AM
web-images.chacha.com
"Hello! You drive to win the race!"

Teams in motorsports takes out a good portion of actual racing.
Especially F1.
 
2013-03-25 08:37:08 AM
www.realclearsports.com
 
2013-03-25 08:37:43 AM

Norfolking Chance: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.


Must be why I don't watch American & Canadian football.

GO FAST or GO HOME!
 
2013-03-25 08:39:46 AM

Norfolking Chance: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.


I know it's how F1 works, but team orders are bullshiat. Never liked 'em. In fact, it's the one thing that really irritates me about F1.

--

Now that said, I doubt anyone is losing their ride over this.
 
2013-03-25 08:40:32 AM
Webber will make a stink and keep on driving, at least until the end of the season.  I do hate to see him in a Massa-type situation, although I think Mark has a better chance to win race-to-race than Felipe.

steamingpile: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

F1 is a different beast, took me a while to get a handle on it as well.

Vettel sounds like a douche, claiming he didn't hear the command to maintain position? He's just trying to think of anything to save his ass at this point.


We are in the era of F1 where the teams dictate driver behavior, thanks entirely to Jean Todt allowing team orders after Ferrari threw a temper tantrum.  And when you give Horner and Newey any allowance in the rules, they will ruthlessly exploit it.

State_College_Arsonist: I won't have a driver to cheer for if Webber retires.

I'll still have plenty of drivers to cheer against, however.


And this is the unfortunate cost of doing business in F1.  All the guys you might like - Heikki, Kamui, Bruno, Timo - aren't quite good enough to keep their seat in the face of pay drivers like Pastor, Max Chilton, and Ricochet Romain.  Vitaly Petrov had no business going from Ladas to F1 cars, but the sponsorship deal was partially arranged by Vladimir Putin as part of the ramp-up to the new Russian GP.

But there are still people to root for on the grid.  I still like Lewis, although I understand why people hate him.  I don't understand how anyone outside of Spain or Italy can hate Kimi.  There's always Jenson, Sergio, or Adrian.  And I find myself rooting for Massa this year simply because he's having a bit of a comeback and he's managed to leapfrog Alonso in the standings (primarily because Massa doesn't ignore orders to pit when his wing's about to come off.
 
2013-03-25 08:43:30 AM
Anyone think that if Brawn let Nico go, he had a chance to run down the Red Bulls?
 
2013-03-25 08:47:35 AM

BunkyBrewman: "When you are fitted in a racing car and you race to win, second or third place is not enough." Ayrton Senna


skinink: [www.realclearsports.com image 640x427]


They wouldn't last more than a season together these days.

And if Ayrton were racing today, Bernie would have to just make a rule saying "You you are not allowed to employ both Ayrton Senna and Adrian Newey at the same time."  You thought the Schumacher-Todt era was bad for competition; we'd see the Driver's Championship wrapped up by Monza.
 
2013-03-25 08:47:53 AM

BunkyBrewman: "When you are fitted in a racing car and you race to win, second or third place is not enough." Ayrton Senna


IMHO, that's not a fair quote to use in this situation.
 
2013-03-25 08:48:01 AM

Kurohone: F1 thrives on this crap, it always has.

While I sympathize with Webber, actually after that article I don't as much anymore.  He's trying to get face by playing the 'good soldier' card, but the fact of the matter is, that card is what ended up with him being the #2 driver in the first place.  He's not a WDC calibre driver, never has been, never will be (unless a stroke of lightning happens to him like happened to Button/Brawn).


Did you miss the part where Webber turned his engine down and Vetel did not? You know they made it clear to both of them to hold in the pit stop and Vetel knew it was his chance to essentially cheat an easy win to tie a record. It was a selfish and dick move, in NASCAR he would have gotten punched.
 
2013-03-25 08:50:57 AM

beerrun: Anyone think that if Brawn let Nico go, he had a chance to run down the Red Bulls?


Take it for what it's worth, but after the race Brawn said Nico didn't have enough fuel to catch the Bulls.

Brawn also said near the end of the race, Hamilton said he felt he should let Nico past and Brawn biatchslapped him over the radio, which seemed a bit odd to me.
 
2013-03-25 08:52:59 AM
Can someone explain what the benefit of Weber finishing first was?
 
2013-03-25 08:54:32 AM

Some Bass Playing Guy: Can someone explain what the benefit of Weber finishing first was?


Well, for one I don't think RBR would have the mess they currently find themselves in.
 
2013-03-25 08:57:12 AM
The thing is it's not like Vettel was ordered to stay behind Mark the whole race.  He had his chance to outrace him, and failed. While he was busy getting his ass kicked, he was whining back to his team saying Mark was holding him up even though Mark was running faster lap times. He wanted them to order Mark aside, and when they didn't is when he was suddenly fine with breaking team orders.

He expects Webber to not only abide by team strategy calls to back off and save the cars at a certain point in the race, expects him to let him pass. But our boy Vettel is too good to have such rules apply to him (even though he'd never be expected to let Webber pass him, just to abide by race strategy.)

Team orders suck, and guys like Vettel just make it worse.

I want Webber to stay on and strategically disobey when Vettel needs it most later in the season.
 
2013-03-25 08:59:11 AM

steamingpile: in NASCAR he would have gotten punched.


You have to be very selective in who you punch.  Ask Adrian Sutil.
 
2013-03-25 09:00:34 AM
I was almost hoping to read this morning that Vettel was DQ'd because he finished with 0.99 liters of fuel in the car after his stunt.
 
2013-03-25 09:04:24 AM
Don't blame Todt for allowing team orders compared to in years past. Team offers have always been around, but teams just had to be more subtle about them in the past.

Teams are an issue in all motorsports, it's not just an F1 thing. NASCAR sees it all the time when a driver takes second place in order to give a teammate an extra push with the draft instead of jumping out to make a run for the checkered flag.
 
2013-03-25 09:06:13 AM
I was told that if you're not first then you're last. Is that not correct? Could you be second or third, or hell even fourth?
 
2013-03-25 09:07:57 AM

digistil: Some Bass Playing Guy: Can someone explain what the benefit of Weber finishing first was?

Well, for one I don't think RBR would have the mess they currently find themselves in.


Plus at this stage of the season there is no advantage to let Vettel win either. If they had let them race both drivers would of burned through the fuel and tyres very quickly. Plus Vettel has a history of crashing into people while trying to overtake.

digistil: beerrun: Anyone think that if Brawn let Nico go, he had a chance to run down the Red Bulls?

Take it for what it's worth, but after the race Brawn said Nico didn't have enough fuel to catch the Bulls.

Brawn also said near the end of the race, Hamilton said he felt he should let Nico past and Brawn biatchslapped him over the radio, which seemed a bit odd to me.


Ross Brawn is as sharp an operator as they come so if there was a good chance of Nico catching the RBR's then Hamilton would of been told to move over.

CitizenjaQ: I was almost hoping to read this morning that Vettel was DQ'd because he finished with 0.99 liters of fuel in the car after his stunt.


Or maybe one of the seals on his car had been "accidentaly" broken by a ham fisted mechanic.
 
2013-03-25 09:10:31 AM

killershark: teams just had to be more subtle about them in the past.


Yes, teams had to be subtle about it, but subtle wasn't getting Fernando into position to win, so they had to confirm that Felipe understood the message.  Now everyone can be blatant about it.  Then again, as I said in the race thread, corruption in Formula 1 is beautifully transparent.

/I guarantee you the next rule the FIA is asked to change is the "English-only on the team radio" rule.
 
2013-03-25 09:27:10 AM
Ah, F1 racing:  the 'sport' that makes Pro Wrestling look legit.
 
2013-03-25 09:34:23 AM

Norfolking Chance: Ross Brawn is as sharp an operator as they come so if there was a good chance of Nico catching the RBR's then Hamilton would of been told to move over.


Yeah, I'm definitely not questioning Brawn. I'm just saying I don't understand why he told Lewis not to let Nico by. I have no doubt he had a good and valid reason, but it's over my head ATM.

Also, people need to stop using the Senna quote... The Vettelistas are now on Twitter claiming his stunt yesterday puts him as an equal to Senna.
 
2013-03-25 09:42:31 AM

UNC_Samurai: killershark: teams just had to be more subtle about them in the past.

Yes, teams had to be subtle about it, but subtle wasn't getting Fernando into position to win, so they had to confirm that Felipe understood the message.  Now everyone can be blatant about it.  Then again, as I said in the race thread, corruption in Formula 1 is beautifully transparent.

/I guarantee you the next rule the FIA is asked to change is the "English-only on the team radio" rule.



I still fondly remember the post-race message to Massa from his engineer, (something along the lines of) "Felipe, I'm sorry, but know that what you did today was very, very magnanimous. Actually, you probably don't know what that means, but I'll explain it to you later."

Rob Smedley - only race engineer I can name off the top of my head, and for good reason

/Also, the FIA would never ban non-English communication, as that might negatively affect their namesake team [/tinfoil hat]
 
2013-03-25 09:42:32 AM
So what this means is that Vettel will pull over and do a make-up after he clinches the driver's championship, Ecclestone will look like a goon (again), they'll ban team orders (again) until this blows over in a few years, and then team orders will be quietly legalized (again) when nobody's looking. We've seen this all before, and Bernie gets what Bernie wants in the end.

I understand that F1 is a "team" sport and probably always has been to some extent, but it never stops giving off a whiff of shadiness because of it. If team orders are to be followed, then the whole team has to follow them, not just the water carrier. Vettel couldn't get by him all race long until he slowed down, and he actually thought that Webber was slowing down because he wanted to? He couldn't hear the team principal's orders but he could hear everything else? That's nonsense. Vettel wrecked his team to feed his own ego. I'd love to see Webber spend the rest of the season subtly doing everything he could to hinder Vettel before leaving for another team that won't give him the dick.
 
2013-03-25 10:07:55 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'd love to see Webber spend the rest of the season subtly doing everything he could to hinder Vettel before leaving for another team that won't give him the dick.


That'd be just fantastic.
 
2013-03-25 10:08:39 AM

killershark: Teams are an issue in all motorsports, it's not just an F1 thing. NASCAR sees it all the time when a driver takes second place in order to give a teammate an extra push with the draft instead of jumping out to make a run for the checkered flag.


You don't think Kyle Bush would try to pass Denny Hamlin or visa versa?
 
2013-03-25 10:15:47 AM

Broktun: killershark: Teams are an issue in all motorsports, it's not just an F1 thing. NASCAR sees it all the time when a driver takes second place in order to give a teammate an extra push with the draft instead of jumping out to make a run for the checkered flag.

You don't think Kyle Bush would try to pass Denny Hamlin or visa versa?


"Tell the farking 88 he can thank me later for not WRECKING his ass.''
 
2013-03-25 10:16:25 AM
killershark: NASCAR sees it all the time when a driver takes second place in order to give a teammate an extra push with the draft instead of jumping out to make a run for the checkered flag.

No, NASCAR doesn't see it all the time. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's pretty rare.
 
2013-03-25 10:16:43 AM

Broktun: killershark: Teams are an issue in all motorsports, it's not just an F1 thing. NASCAR sees it all the time when a driver takes second place in order to give a teammate an extra push with the draft instead of jumping out to make a run for the checkered flag.

You don't think Kyle Bush would try to pass Denny Hamlin or visa versa?


Pretty sure they have come close to wrecking each other several times at the end of races.

F1 sucks these days.  But I was a big Schumacher fan, so I'm probably part of the problem.  Vettel is like payback for people like me.  I do think he is the best driver in the field.  I thought the same about Michael.  But I don't root for Vettel at all.  Can't stand him.  But now I know what it's like to see the best driver win cleanly, and then also work the system to win anyway they need to.  I get the hate for Michael, because I feel the same to Vettel.

Then again, he didn't beat my driver, so I can't get really worked up about it.  I can't find anybody in the field to root for.  It's just a bizarre racing organization.
 
2013-03-25 10:30:05 AM

costermonger: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'd love to see Webber spend the rest of the season subtly doing everything he could to hinder Vettel before leaving for another team that won't give him the dick.

That'd be just fantastic.


I would love to see that
 
2013-03-25 10:33:38 AM

Norfolking Chance: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.


Is that what actually happened?

Not even close.

And if you're not driving to win, it's hardly a competition, is it?  They'll be cutting the crusts off their sandwiches next.
 
2013-03-25 10:42:07 AM

Norfolking Chance: No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.


And right there is why America prefers NASCAR. If you're not first, you're last. Fark team orders; if it's down to a couple of teammates, congrats, now have at it like everyone else.
 
2013-03-25 10:42:59 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Norfolking Chance: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.

Is that what actually happened?

Not even close.

And if you're not driving to win, it's hardly a competition, is it?  They'll be cutting the crusts off their sandwiches next.


Are you saying it wasn't a competition because Webber followed team orders and detuned his car, thus making him easy prey? Or are you saying it wasn't a competition because of the team orders?
 
2013-03-25 11:20:42 AM

Gosling: And right there is why America prefers NASCAR.


America doesn't realize F1 is a team sport.  It is 11 teams of 2 cars, not 22 individual drivers.
 
2013-03-25 11:22:01 AM

Gosling: Norfolking Chance: No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.

And right there is why America prefers NASCAR. If you're not first, you're last. Fark team orders; if it's down to a couple of teammates, congrats, now have at it like everyone else.


There are many reasons Americans prefer NASCAR. But some of us like to see difficult passes, technologically advanced cars, legit cautions and right turns instead of the typical wreckin' and racin'. In exchange, we have to accept things like one driver taking a big early lead and team orders.

And my point earlier was that you can't say teams don't matter in NASCAR. They may not matter as much as in F1, but you better believe that Hendricks would be pretty pissed if Dale Jr. wrecked Jimmie to win a race compared to someone who wasn't a teammate. And you know those guys would get an extra earful during a race if they were taking stupid risks against a teammate. Cup drivers may be more independent when it comes to pit crews and crew chiefs, but there's a reason a team like Hendricks wins races when their drivers are working together on the track.
 
2013-03-25 11:30:20 AM
killershark:But some of us like to see difficult passes...

Then why do you watch F1? F1 has been technologically advanced parade laps for years. It's about the cars and technology, not the drivers, though they really wish it were entirely about them.

The F1 template: a team takes the technological lead for the season, they win every race. The only suspense is whether or not the driver of said dominant car will mess it up and lose, which team will become dominant in the offseason, and who will be virtually handed the driver's championship by signing with said team. Skillful passing? It takes a lack of skill from the guy in front for anybody to pass at all.
 
2013-03-25 11:34:10 AM
The three-time defending champion ignored team orders Sunday and overtook fellow Red Bull driver Mark Webber toward the end to win the Malaysian Grand Prix, having been told to stand down and cruise to a 1-2 finish.

The German's move left Webber fuming and had team officials remonstrating Vettel publicly after the race. Vettel apologized, but said he didn't realize he had been told to hold back.



OK.....I don't watch much of F1, but I watched about 20 or so laps yesterday and I'll watch other races.  So educate me.  If they finish 1-2, Webber/Vettel, then......Vettel finishing first still means the team finishes 1-2.  right?  so who farking cares?

what am I missing?
 
2013-03-25 11:38:34 AM
killershark:

And my point earlier was that you can't say teams don't matter in NASCAR. They may not matter as much as in F1, but you better believe that Hendricks would be pretty pissed if Dale Jr. wrecked Jimmie to win a race compared to someone who wasn't a teammate. And you know those guys would get an extra earful during a race if they were taking stupid risks against a teammate. Cup drivers may be more independent when it comes to pit crews and crew chiefs, but there's a reason a team like Hendricks wins races when their drivers are working together on the track.

There's a world of difference between teams in NASCAR and teams in F1.  For example, you're never going to see a top NASCAR driver pull over and let a team mate win.
 
2013-03-25 11:45:48 AM

rickythepenguin: what am I missing?


The team isn't hurt in the points, but the drivers are now in conflict with each other because Vettel stole the win. Now the team is hurt in the future when Webber tells them to pound sand over this if Vettel needs to be in front for the driver's championship points.

The history of this sort of thing happening is long and distinguished, Villeneuve/Pironi in 1982 was probably the most famous. They never spoke to each other again as Villeneuve was killed two weeks later. All drivers want to be the guy, but only one can be, and following team orders requires pride swallowing. Vettel just proved he won't do that, and so why should Webber?
 
2013-03-25 11:48:39 AM

rickythepenguin: The three-time defending champion ignored team orders Sunday and overtook fellow Red Bull driver Mark Webber toward the end to win the Malaysian Grand Prix, having been told to stand down and cruise to a 1-2 finish.

The German's move left Webber fuming and had team officials remonstrating Vettel publicly after the race. Vettel apologized, but said he didn't realize he had been told to hold back.


OK.....I don't watch much of F1, but I watched about 20 or so laps yesterday and I'll watch other races.  So educate me.  If they finish 1-2, Webber/Vettel, then......Vettel finishing first still means the team finishes 1-2.  right?  so who farking cares?

what am I missing?


There are two championships: the constructor (or team), and the driver. Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc, care about the constructor's championship. In addition to the prestige, there's a HUGE pile of cash that gets divvied up based on the number of constructor's points you have. Red Bull wanted a 1-2, and was somewhat agnostic to the order in which the drivers finished. However, their two drivers have an iffy relationship at best, and have been known to take each other out white running 1-2 and fighting for position. The team didn't want to risk walking away with 0 points instead of 43, but Vettel wanted the 25 points a win brings instead of the 18 for second. Given that he won in 2010 by 4 points, and last year by 3, that's not unreasonable. But the team had ordered him to hold off (so they wouldn't race each other and wreck) and he basically said, "fark you, I'm racing for first".
 
2013-03-25 11:49:54 AM

rickythepenguin: The three-time defending champion ignored team orders Sunday and overtook fellow Red Bull driver Mark Webber toward the end to win the Malaysian Grand Prix, having been told to stand down and cruise to a 1-2 finish.

The German's move left Webber fuming and had team officials remonstrating Vettel publicly after the race. Vettel apologized, but said he didn't realize he had been told to hold back.


OK.....I don't watch much of F1, but I watched about 20 or so laps yesterday and I'll watch other races.  So educate me.  If they finish 1-2, Webber/Vettel, then......Vettel finishing first still means the team finishes 1-2.  right?  so who farking cares?

what am I missing?


Because the speed difference between the two cars would be basically nil, passing is going to be a long process and a lot of jockeying for position. This uses extra fuel no matter how it happens. This could lead to an inability to fight off later attempts (they have to finish the race with a minimum amount of fuel to win) by other teams, or running out of fuel altogether.

Passing itself occurs primarily in corners as a result of the passer taking a position which forces the leading driver to give up his line, and if he doesn't want to do that (or doesn't believe he has to just yet) you get contact between the cars, which is rarely a good thing with open wheel racers. Somebody loses the tip of a wing and the other guy wrecks a tire and then your guaranteed 1-2 finish ends with no points for either driver.

Basically, to the team it's an unacceptable risk to have their drivers really race each other if the team's position is already secure.
 
2013-03-25 11:52:08 AM

rickythepenguin: The three-time defending champion ignored team orders Sunday and overtook fellow Red Bull driver Mark Webber toward the end to win the Malaysian Grand Prix, having been told to stand down and cruise to a 1-2 finish.

The German's move left Webber fuming and had team officials remonstrating Vettel publicly after the race. Vettel apologized, but said he didn't realize he had been told to hold back.


OK.....I don't watch much of F1, but I watched about 20 or so laps yesterday and I'll watch other races.  So educate me.  If they finish 1-2, Webber/Vettel, then......Vettel finishing first still means the team finishes 1-2.  right?  so who farking cares?

what am I missing?


Basically, you can't just replace worn/broken parts at will. You're only allotted X engines, Y transmissions, etc. for the entire season. If you go beyond your allotment, you're penalized with grid drops for each infraction. The idea is to help keep costs under control.
 
2013-03-25 11:56:53 AM

rickythepenguin: The three-time defending champion ignored team orders Sunday and overtook fellow Red Bull driver Mark Webber toward the end to win the Malaysian Grand Prix, having been told to stand down and cruise to a 1-2 finish.

The German's move left Webber fuming and had team officials remonstrating Vettel publicly after the race. Vettel apologized, but said he didn't realize he had been told to hold back.


OK.....I don't watch much of F1, but I watched about 20 or so laps yesterday and I'll watch other races.  So educate me.  If they finish 1-2, Webber/Vettel, then......Vettel finishing first still means the team finishes 1-2.  right?  so who farking cares?

what am I missing?


I haven't been following F1 much the last few years, so i could be wrong about some of this, but I think there is an 8 engine limit per car per season. If a car has to use a 9th or more in a season they take a big grid penalty for that race. Secondly, with the cars so light to start with, they don't want to put more fuel (i.e. weight) than they have to, so car are probably running close to the limit as far as range goes towards the end of the race. Thirdly, destroying the tires and having to pit again in a race where overtaking is difficult and yellow flags are few and far between is a much bigger disadvantage than in say NASCAR. So when a team is running 1-2 and have a big gap behind them it's nothing but a risk to have them pushing each other and risking engines, fuel and tires. It could cost them both at the time, and later in the season if they don't have engines left in good condition when the championship is on the line. You can argue if the rules that create that situation are good for the sport, but under these rules Vettel did something stupid.
 
2013-03-25 11:58:27 AM

digistil: Marcus Aurelius: Norfolking Chance: KingVJ: It is called racing.

You wanna win, you earn it.

No, F1 is a team sport. The driver is just the sharp end of the team and does what he is told just like a QB in American football. A one two finish is whats best for the team and thats what the drivers should deliver and not try and wreck the cars racing each other. If you thrash F1 cars racing for position you will run out of fuel and destroy the tires loosing the places.

Is that what actually happened?

Not even close.

And if you're not driving to win, it's hardly a competition, is it?  They'll be cutting the crusts off their sandwiches next.

Are you saying it wasn't a competition because Webber followed team orders and detuned his car, thus making him easy prey? Or are you saying it wasn't a competition because of the team orders?


I guess what I'm saying is that if you have a chance to win a race and your "team" orders you to lose, it diminishes the meaning of a win somewhat.
 
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