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(Opposing Views)   It's hard to attach a dollar amount to a police car ramming into two guys on a dirt bike, unless you're a lawyer. Spoiler: It's $100 million   (opposingviews.com) divider line 101
    More: Misc, Caught on Camera, PIT maneuver, Steve McClain, Hunts Point  
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7680 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2013 at 5:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-24 07:15:35 PM

GizmoToy: The fact that he also rammed them a second time (purposefully or not), ultimately killing one and injuring the other, only makes the situation more clear.


What about the clarity of a man dying in a minor traffic collision? That's why you're supposed to wear safety gear and keep off the road on dirt bikes. The motocross guys slam into the ground at 90 mph, bounce twice, and get right back on the bike. Why? They choose their gear and track properly.
 
2013-03-24 07:16:37 PM
I think the important thing is in a climate rife with billionaire pirates, thugs, dope gangs and people pushing old ladies down the stairs for their food stamp cards that this wannabe action movie star, steroid crazed douchebag got to murder somebody for riding the wrong kind of low power motorcycle on the street, and more importantly,  questioning his manhood.  And he'll get a week off with pay.  And we'll all say "hey, not my problem" and go back to bed.  See?  The republic is safe.
 
2013-03-24 07:25:03 PM
It is said that in the south, "he needed killing" is still a viable defense in some jurisdictions.

So.. no tags on a dirt bike.

Did he need killing?

Well?
 
2013-03-24 07:25:27 PM

bunner: I think the important thing is in a climate rife with billionaire pirates, thugs, dope gangs and people pushing old ladies down the stairs for their food stamp cards that this wannabe action movie star, steroid crazed douchebag got to murder somebody for riding the wrong kind of low power motorcycle on the street, and more importantly,  questioning his manhood.  And he'll get a week off with pay.   And we'll all say "hey, not my problem" and go back to bed.  See?  The republic is safe.


I enjoyed reading those words you strung together.  Nice.  But are you really saying this is indeed my problem or not?
/Really, I wanna know because if it's my problem I may have to fix something.
 
2013-03-24 07:26:53 PM
Can someone please link the video that y'all are watching, where the 2 bike riders went on a 70 mph crime spree thru a Farmer's Market before being brought down by a 4'8" policewoman on rollerskates?

Because the video *I* just watched showed a 3000 lb car turn left on an *empty street* into a small motorcycle where driver and passenger weren't wearing helmets. No "accident", no "They were reckless and crashed into something, killing themselves in the process". If the police car had not turned into them, there is a good chance that no one would have been hurt. Looks like the policeman decided this chase was gonna stop right there, no matter what injuries they might sustain.

Did someone at least have the sense to plant some drugs or kiddee porn on the body before everyone else showed up?
 
2013-03-24 07:29:39 PM

rkiller1: I enjoyed reading those words you strung together.  Nice.  But are you really saying this is indeed my problem or not?/Really, I wanna know because if it's my problem I may have to fix something.


Depends on how you define "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  If you define them as "If nothing bad happened to me, I live in paradise", then it's not your problem.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't what we had in mind when we nailed up a shingle for this country though, but so little is anymore.
 
2013-03-24 07:35:15 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The first time the police cruiser hit the guy on the bike seems to be the cop's fault - he could have tried to pull him over without ramming the bike.  The second time after the guy runs and jumps on the back of the other bike is on two guys running away - if you get hurt/killed trying to flee the police that's on you.


So, after a cop deliberately tries to kill you for what amounts to nothing, your best course of action is to hang around and wait for him to finish the job?

Want to know why people doing nothing wrong run from cops?  Because the cops are out of control thugs.
 
2013-03-24 07:39:40 PM

Rent Party: Because the cops are out of control thugs.


Thugs?  But they have guns!  And authority identifiers!  And they dress alike!  And a code of silence and, um...   :  /
 
2013-03-24 07:42:17 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: Oh ffs. Did ANYONE watch the vid? The suspects drove the bike RIGHT OUT into traffic in front of the officer, who had 0 chance to slow down enough to not hit them. Nice try for the payoff for the scumbag lawyer though. Here is an idea, have a farking drivers license, register your vehicle, and if the cops are after you, a bad idea would be to pull suddenly in front of them trying to get away, and getting your stupid ass killed. Blaming the police for your retardation seems to be a common practice now days.


Yeah, it's hard to call that anything but an accident. Guy rides bike out into intersection, speeding cruiser comes around sharp left turn, bike and car intersect at the, er, intersection. Hard to tell from the quality of the video whether the car had its brakes on or not, although at those speeds I'm not sure it would have mattered. Nor am I sure if wearing a helmet would have helped the guys on the bike, given the crushing nature of the impact.

You know, it's entirely possible, even in a chase between cops and criminals, for there to be accidents. Both cops and criminals get tunnel vision when driving/escaping at high speeds and on narrow streets. I doubt that the cop driving had time enough to either miss OR hit the bike on purpose and probably just plowed into a bike he didn't expect to be there; and equally I doubt that the bikers pulled out thinking "hey, the cops will swerve around us!" OR even realized they were so close.

Sometimes there are accidents. It's shocking, I know, but not everything the police do is calculated to be evil.
 
2013-03-24 07:48:22 PM

Gyrfalcon: Bit'O'Gristle: Oh ffs. Did ANYONE watch the vid? The suspects drove the bike RIGHT OUT into traffic in front of the officer, who had 0 chance to slow down enough to not hit them. Nice try for the payoff for the scumbag lawyer though. Here is an idea, have a farking drivers license, register your vehicle, and if the cops are after you, a bad idea would be to pull suddenly in front of them trying to get away, and getting your stupid ass killed. Blaming the police for your retardation seems to be a common practice now days.

Yeah, it's hard to call that anything but an accident. Guy rides bike out into intersection, speeding cruiser comes around sharp left turn, bike and car intersect at the, er, intersection. Hard to tell from the quality of the video whether the car had its brakes on or not, although at those speeds I'm not sure it would have mattered. Nor am I sure if wearing a helmet would have helped the guys on the bike, given the crushing nature of the impact.

You know, it's entirely possible, even in a chase between cops and criminals, for there to be accidents. Both cops and criminals get tunnel vision when driving/escaping at high speeds and on narrow streets. I doubt that the cop driving had time enough to either miss OR hit the bike on purpose and probably just plowed into a bike he didn't expect to be there; and equally I doubt that the bikers pulled out thinking "hey, the cops will swerve around us!" OR even realized they were so close.

Sometimes there are accidents. It's shocking, I know, but not everything the police do is calculated to be evil.


Please stop being reasonable, you're ruining the cop bashing for the ITG's.
 
2013-03-24 07:50:07 PM

Gyrfalcon: t's shocking, I know, but not everything the police do is calculated to be evil.


Actually it sort of is shocking.  Almost as much as the fact that a lot of it is and we don't give a polly wolly doo dah f*ck about it.
 
2013-03-24 07:57:54 PM
bunner:

Depends on how you define "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  If you define them as "If nothing bad happened to me, I live in paradise", then it's not your problem.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't what we had in mind when we nailed up a shingle for this country though, but so little is anymore.

I'll sleep a little sounder know Mr. Gonzalaz and Mr. Fernandez won't be committing any crimes in the near future if that helps. Maybe they were hard working legit guys, but I doubt it.
 
2013-03-24 08:02:02 PM

BigRightRear: bunner:

Depends on how you define "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  If you define them as "If nothing bad happened to me, I live in paradise", then it's not your problem.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't what we had in mind when we nailed up a shingle for this country though, but so little is anymore.

I'll sleep a little sounder know Mr. Gonzalaz and Mr. Fernandez won't be committing any crimes in the near future if that helps. Maybe they were hard working legit guys, but I doubt it.


They were just on the cusp of discovering the cure for juvenile leukemia which would have been manufactured on their perpetual motion machine.
 
2013-03-24 08:02:22 PM

Gyrfalcon: Sometimes there are accidents. It's shocking, I know, but not everything the police do is calculated to be evil.


This is true; the bulk of what they do is just out of stupidity, not malice.
 
2013-03-24 08:06:36 PM
The cop clearly tries to ram him the first time, second time also looks intentional.
 
2013-03-24 08:06:52 PM

BigRightRear:  Maybe they were hard working legit guys, but I doubt it.


Why's that?
 
2013-03-24 08:09:38 PM

bunner: BigRightRear:  Maybe they were hard working legit guys, but I doubt it.

Why's that?


And, all that aside, are you saying that cops should circumvent due process, courts, trials and just kill motherfarkers who MAY be recidivist felons and sh*tstains because they got no plates a dirt bike?
 
2013-03-24 08:13:09 PM

CheapEngineer: Can someone please link the video that y'all are watching, where the 2 bike riders went on a 70 mph crime spree thru a Farmer's Market before being brought down by a 4'8" policewoman on rollerskates?

Because the video *I* just watched showed a 3000 lb car turn left on an *empty street* into a small motorcycle where driver and passenger weren't wearing helmets. No "accident", no "They were reckless and crashed into something, killing themselves in the process". If the police car had not turned into them, there is a good chance that no one would have been hurt. Looks like the policeman decided this chase was gonna stop right there, no matter what injuries they might sustain.

Did someone at least have the sense to plant some drugs or kiddee porn on the body before everyone else showed up?


Whew! Glad I wasn't the only one to see that. With some of these other replies, I was beginning to think someone had snuck up and dosed me with LSD or something right before watching the vids.

Also, why was the cop going that fast? Ostensibly, the suspect  ran from the scene of the first incident, you know, like,  on foot. He can't have gotten that much of a lead on the cop. At that speed, if the dude hadn't jumped on the back of another bike and instead continued running, that cop would have just blown right past him.... what kind of sense does that make? Sorry, but I just do not see this as an accident at all.
 
2013-03-24 08:14:37 PM
Prosecutors are always using cases to "set an example." If I'm ever a juror in a criminal case, my vote is 'not guilty' regardless of circumstances, just to set an example. Unless it's a cop on trial; then my vote is 'guilty' regardless of circumstances, just to set an example.
 
2013-03-24 08:22:24 PM

bunner: BigRightRear:  Maybe they were hard working legit guys, but I doubt it.

Why's that?


Upstanding citizens don't run from the police.  I'm not saying everyone stopped by the police is guilty, but if you are stopped, just do as they ask, remain civil, and if it's anymore more than a traffic violation, don't speak until you have a lawyer present.  The system is what it is, if you work with it the results will be better for you 99.9% of the time than if you try to circumvent it.
 
2013-03-24 08:23:22 PM

Dwight_Yeast: the bulk of what they do is just out of stupidity, not malice.


I find there to be no conceptual difference in this case. If it is stupidity, the cop shouldn't have been given a badge and pistol. Of course hindsight is 20/20, so at least he shouldn't be allowed to keep it, and if he is, whoever made the call is guilty of depraved indifference in my eyes. Incompetency should not be tolerated in job fields that involve saving people's lives, and even less so when your job provides you the authority to take lives without punishment.

People may argue that PDs are already understaffed, but they should consider that maybe if less LEOs were crooks and a-holes.... we might not  need as many. Like in Apocalypse Now: "What we need is fewer men, and better."
 
2013-03-24 08:24:37 PM

DrPainMD: Prosecutors are always using cases to "set an example."


And what's hilarious is they apparently believe the criminal element, if they actually even care about prosecuting the criminal element, is actually reading the papers every morning to check on the latest docket results before they load their Glock and boogaloo off to the liquor store to make a withdrawal and sling some packets to the grade school kids.
 
2013-03-24 08:27:35 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The system is what it is


That's sort of the problem.

TuteTibiImperes: if you work with it the results will be better for you 99.9% of the time than if you try to circumvent it

.

I think that sort of hinges on your net worth and who your uncle is.  That's also how the system works.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-24 08:28:38 PM
Perhaps the silly-azz cops needs to be reacquainted with the following gear:
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

/protip for dummy cops: these tend to outrun everything and don't involve hurting/killing nearly as often as other methods
 
2013-03-24 08:29:47 PM

asynchron: Dwight_Yeast: the bulk of what they do is just out of stupidity, not malice.

I find there to be no conceptual difference in this case. If it is stupidity, the cop shouldn't have been given a badge and pistol. Of course hindsight is 20/20, so at least he shouldn't be allowed to keep it, and if he is, whoever made the call is guilty of depraved indifference in my eyes. Incompetency should not be tolerated in job fields that involve saving people's lives, and even less so when your job provides you the authority to take lives without punishment.

People may argue that PDs are already understaffed, but they should consider that maybe if less LEOs were crooks and a-holes.... we might not  need as many. Like in Apocalypse Now: "What we need is fewer men, and better."


Some departments actually give IQ tests and throw out the applicants who score too high.  It's a very boring and repetitive job and intelligent people don't generally last too long.  Just the nature of the job.  You're not going to get the best and the brightest.  I'm in the "they are just morons" camp as opposed to the "OMG THEY ARE ALL KKK NAZI'S ON STEROIDS" camp.
 
2013-03-24 08:34:43 PM

asynchron: At that speed, if the dude hadn't jumped on the back of another bike and instead continued running, that cop would have just blown right past him....


If only there were some mechanism to decelerate a vehicle faster than by the mere friction of the axles. Why such a stupendous contraction would be so useful I reckon they'd install one in every motor vehicle.
 
2013-03-24 08:43:44 PM

bunner: It is said that in the south, "he needed killing" is still a viable defense in some jurisdictions.

So.. no tags on a dirt bike.

Did he need killing?

Well?


It is known.  Yes, it is known.
 
2013-03-24 08:50:42 PM

hardinparamedic: Lsherm: Not death, but really, there needs to be a medal for it.  What do these people think is going to happen?  They will escape?

Many jurisdictions have stopped doing chases now, especially on motorcycles, for the reason that it endangers the public. They'll follow them from the air, wait until they stop, and then move in. The exceptions to this are violent crime and if there is someone being held hostage, of course.

Of course, you are right. You can't outrun a radio, no matter what GTA taught you.


Yet the police always claim they need V8 power for pursuit.
 
2013-03-24 08:51:50 PM

TuteTibiImperes: If the cop was purposefully trying to run them down and hurt/kill them that would be wrong, but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault. They brought it upon themselves by running.


We don't allow that because it leaves the door wide open for scumbag cops to apply street justice and then claim the person was running away.
 
2013-03-24 08:54:55 PM

pedrop357: TuteTibiImperes: If the cop was purposefully trying to run them down and hurt/kill them that would be wrong, but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault. They brought it upon themselves by running.

We don't allow that because it leaves the door wide open for scumbag cops to apply street justice and then claim the person was running away.


We don't?  Criminals die all the time running from the police and it's "allowed."
 
2013-03-24 08:55:14 PM

bunner: It is said that in the south, "he needed killing" is still a viable defense in some jurisdictions.

So.. no tags on a dirt bike.

Did he need killing?

Well?


In the South... the deputies are smart enough to know that idiots driving a dirt bike without tags in a reckless manner will eventually kill themselves ..... without any need for police intervention. Just bide your time and wait.
 
2013-03-24 09:04:05 PM

bunner: So how is that nationwide LEO steroid addiction working out for you guys?


LOL!
 
2013-03-24 09:13:17 PM

bunner: So.. no tags on a dirt bike.

Did he need killing?



cdn.hark.com

/ should have cleared on out the back
 
2013-03-24 09:20:30 PM

asynchron: Dwight_Yeast: the bulk of what they do is just out of stupidity, not malice.

I find there to be no conceptual difference in this case. If it is stupidity, the cop shouldn't have been given a badge and pistol. Of course hindsight is 20/20, so at least he shouldn't be allowed to keep it, and if he is, whoever made the call is guilty of depraved indifference in my eyes. Incompetency should not be tolerated in job fields that involve saving people's lives, and even less so when your job provides you the authority to take lives without punishment.

People may argue that PDs are already understaffed, but they should consider that maybe if less LEOs were crooks and a-holes.... we might not  need as many. Like in Apocalypse Now: "What we need is fewer men, and better."


Yeah, but those of us who think so are in the minority. A big part of the problem in large police departments like NYPD (we have the same issue here on the Left Coast) is that they've had to lower their hiring standards over the last few decades, in part because of legal pressures, and in part because of the paranoid masses who insist that we MUST have MOAR COPZ! to protect us from all the criminals out there who want to rape murder and eat us. Not better trained cops, or better police presence, or more scientifically applied--just MOAR!!

So they hire a hundred more, because the citizens want more, and that means hiring the top 100 applicants who can pass all the tests AND lowering the standards because they don't want to be unfair to anyone who can't quite read or can't quite pass a background check (because he was a gangbanger when he was a kid and he's left all that behind him now) or can't quite pass the physical exam.

Then stuff like this happens, because the officer maybe isn't as smart or fast or foresighted as he should be--and then people start screeching about wanting smarter, better cops. Well, you can't have both good, smart, well-trained officers AND lots of them. Pick which would be better.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-24 09:26:12 PM

Stephen_Falken: F*ck the police


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-24 09:34:25 PM

pedrop357: hardinparamedic: Lsherm: Not death, but really, there needs to be a medal for it.  What do these people think is going to happen?  They will escape?

Many jurisdictions have stopped doing chases now, especially on motorcycles, for the reason that it endangers the public. They'll follow them from the air, wait until they stop, and then move in. The exceptions to this are violent crime and if there is someone being held hostage, of course.

Of course, you are right. You can't outrun a radio, no matter what GTA taught you.

Yet the police always claim they need V8 power for pursuit.


In all fairness, our local cops are transferring to the Taurus with a V6 as part of their replacement program.  They looked at the Dodge Charger, but AWD and better mileage looked like a better option.
 
2013-03-24 09:43:38 PM

Gyrfalcon: So they hire a hundred more, because the citizens want more, and that means hiring the top 100 applicants who can pass all the tests AND lowering the standards because they don't want to be unfair to anyone who can't quite read or can't quite pass a background check (because he was a gangbanger when he was a kid and he's left all that behind him now) or can't quite pass the physical exam.


No, they don't.  Police departments actively try to hire stupid people, because smart people will get bored.   Not only that, but it was upheld as a valid policy in court.
 
2013-03-24 09:56:43 PM
Having been privy to a broad scope of aggregated MMPPI scores that are given to LEOs, EMTs and recidivist criminals, I have learned that cops and criminals are basically the same people, save for one basic difference.  Cops are smarter.  Not a *lot*, but a definite come up on the IQ portion.  So, essentially, cops and criminals see the world through the same screen door, cops are just smart enough to be on the other side of the equation.  Keep that in mind when getting yanked over at 2:00 A.M. for aggravated window shopping.
 
2013-03-24 10:06:16 PM
Dirt bike (motorcycles) are illegal on city streets. The reason why they are popular with the "poorer element" is because they're impossible to catch. They were fleeing, and had the officer not rammed them they would not have stopped. Plenty of videos on youtube of dirt bike / ATV "gangs" in cities like Baltimore if you're wondering what kind of a menace these bikes can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAMB8bsZCzQ

No sympathy for the parent. You knew what your child was doing with the bike.
 
2013-03-24 11:00:49 PM

asynchron: People may argue that PDs are already understaffed, but they should consider that maybe if less LEOs were crooks and a-holes.... we might not need as many. Like in Apocalypse Now: "What we need is fewer men, and better."


That's really my view on it.  If cops were smarter and less corrupt, they could actually prevent crime, rather than simply making a half-assed mess of trying to catch criminals after the fact.
 
2013-03-24 11:01:22 PM
$100 million

It's a start.

Every individual police officer should as a prerequisite of employment be required provide proof of self-funded Professional Liability Insurance, just like any plumber, maid, building contractor, mover, or accountant does, and damages from their negligence or misconduct must be paid by their insurer - not the citizens who pay their salaries, guarantee their pensions, and receive without recourse their constant and ever-escalating abuse of authority..

Win-win:
- Bad cops' rates drive their fat, sociopathic, felonious leeching asses out of a job and back into the underworld where they belong.
- Insurance companies apply the pre$$ure police officials, municipal executives, and union zealots refuse to apply to their thug only-in-name subordinates.
 
2013-03-24 11:05:34 PM
Is that like reverse cop math, where 1 oz of marijuana is worth $250,000?
 
2013-03-24 11:21:32 PM

Gyrfalcon: Sometimes there are accidents. It's shocking, I know, but not everything the police do is calculated to be evil.



BURN THE WITCH!
 
2013-03-24 11:34:18 PM

TuteTibiImperes: .... but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault.  They brought it upon themselves by running.


Traffic violations such as driving without registration, or riding without a helmet are infractions.  Not felonies (criminal), not even misdemeanors.

It's like getting rammed because your tags are expired.
 
2013-03-25 12:47:02 AM

SirHolo: TuteTibiImperes: .... but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault.  They brought it upon themselves by running.

Traffic violations such as driving without registration, or riding without a helmet are infractions.  Not felonies (criminal), not even misdemeanors.

It's like getting rammed because your tags are expired.


To be fair, it's like getting rammed because you ran when getting pulled over for expired tags.  All the guy had to do was take his ticket on the initial stop and none of this would have happened.
 
2013-03-25 12:54:32 AM

TuteTibiImperes: SirHolo: TuteTibiImperes: .... but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault.  They brought it upon themselves by running.

Traffic violations such as driving without registration, or riding without a helmet are infractions.  Not felonies (criminal), not even misdemeanors.

It's like getting rammed because your tags are expired.

To be fair, it's like getting rammed because you ran when getting pulled over for expired tags.  All the guy had to do was take his ticket on the initial stop and none of this would have happened.



Hell hath no fury like a piggy scorned.


/Words to live by
 
2013-03-25 01:22:36 AM

TuteTibiImperes: SirHolo: TuteTibiImperes: .... but if it was an accident, which is what the investigation found, yeah, it's the criminals fault.  They brought it upon themselves by running.

Traffic violations such as driving without registration, or riding without a helmet are infractions.  Not felonies (criminal), not even misdemeanors.

It's like getting rammed because your tags are expired.

To be fair, it's like getting rammed because you ran when getting pulled over for expired tags.  All the guy had to do was take his ticket on the initial stop and none of this would have happened.


The "initial stop" involved the cop swerving to ram Gonzalez as he was sitting still on the bike, knocking him off it.  If I was him, I would not assume that just a ticket was forthcoming.
 
2013-03-25 02:29:13 AM

JeffreyScott: Because being ran down and killed for a minor traffic violation is justice?  I hope you are trolling.


Why does everyone keep saying this? Fleeing and evading police is not a minor traffic violation.  Its a felony... and usually people run from the cops because they dont want to go to jail for things unrelated to a traffic violation.
 
2013-03-25 08:26:38 AM

Alonjar: Why does everyone keep saying this? Fleeing and evading police is not a minor traffic violation. Its a felony...


FTFA: "Gonzalez was allegedly riding a dirt bike with no license plate and no helmet when Officer McClain spotted him and swerved towards his bike. Knocked onto the sidewalk, Gonzalez fled on foot and then jumped on the back of Fernandez's dirt bike, also unregistered. The officer chased them in his cruiser before slamming into the back of them."

The cop ran into Gonzalez first. THEN Gonzalez started running. At the time the cop ran into him, he had done nothing but 'ride a dirt bike with no license plate and no helmet', which is indeed "a minor traffic violation".
 
2013-03-25 02:24:51 PM
The cop needs shot in the head. Period.
 
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