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(Townhall)   Professor forces a student to violate his religious beliefs. Student complains the college. College does A) apologize, B) Bring the Professor before a committee, or C) Suspend the student and go into denial mode   (townhall.com) divider line 478
    More: Asinine, jesus, Florida Atlantic University, Paul Kengor, colleges, students, Delaware Democratic Party, professors, Ryan Rotela  
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18551 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2013 at 1:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-24 01:17:59 PM

raerae1980: ginandbacon: I think I could see how being asked to write the name of your divine spirit on a piece of paper and then being required to step on it might be offensive. I'm not sure who designed this particular exercise, but it kind of sucks ass. There are much better ways IMHO to teach how hypocritical and ridiculous many religious teachings are without doing dishonor to the essential message behind them which is essentially love and tolerance. Jesus was a great man in many respects and even as an atheist, I'm not sure I would want to write out his name and then stomp on it.

 Id have no problem stomping on it.  Im an atheist and I have doubts on if he even existed.


I see you don't believe in apostrophes either.
 
2013-03-24 01:18:44 PM
Stupid religious people.
 
2013-03-24 01:18:51 PM

CheetahOlivetti: So Townhall blows, but it was a stupid assignment. I wouldn't stomp on a piece of paper with my child's name on it either. Too bad the derpers will use this as an example of Christian oppression.


So farking what? Like they weren't going to say that no matter what.
 
2013-03-24 01:19:45 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?
This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.


Not really. It's a cause de jure, as are LGBT rights, abortion, gun control, racism and Washington politics.  Wait a few weeks and other de jure issue will cycle through MSNBC.  Wait a few years and we'll be right back here.   You know, circle of life and all.
/Whatever sells, sells.
 
2013-03-24 01:19:52 PM
WTF is this? Shogun?
 
2013-03-24 01:19:59 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.


Most major wars and a great deal of historical murdering sprees tend to come from arguing over who has the coolest sky wizard.

Or by not showing the appropriate level of fanaticism towards said sky wizard when confronted.

/See: Crusades
//Or: Inquisition
///Or: Romans vs Christians
////Or: Dark Ages
//Etc etc etc
 
2013-03-24 01:20:24 PM

CheetahOlivetti: So Townhall blows, but it was a stupid assignment. I wouldn't stomp on a piece of paper with my child's name on it either. Too bad the derpers will use this as an example of Christian oppression.


But would you be able to explain why you wouldn't step on your child's name? Because that part was the point of the assignment, you know...
 
2013-03-24 01:20:31 PM

raerae1980: ginandbacon: I think I could see how being asked to write the name of your divine spirit on a piece of paper and then being required to step on it might be offensive. I'm not sure who designed this particular exercise, but it kind of sucks ass. There are much better ways IMHO to teach how hypocritical and ridiculous many religious teachings are without doing dishonor to the essential message behind them which is essentially love and tolerance. Jesus was a great man in many respects and even as an atheist, I'm not sure I would want to write out his name and then stomp on it.

 Id have no problem stomping on it.  Im an atheist and I have doubts on if he even existed.


an atheist? On Fark? Now I've seen it all
 
2013-03-24 01:21:24 PM
Should have used "Obama's" name. Then img1.fark.net would worship her.

/srsly, stupid technique
 
2013-03-24 01:21:25 PM

Happy Hours: I read an article from CBS and the Palm Beach Post. Those aren't exactly Al Jazeera, the BBC or even the PBS News Hour, but I do consider them to be news outlets more respectable than Townhall or WND.


I'm not too sure about the CBS affiliate in West Palm, they got bought out by Sinclair who has been known for having a pro-Republican bias in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group#Controversies
 
2013-03-24 01:22:05 PM

SkinnyHead: The exercise is pointless for those students who have no reverence for Jesus.  Those students should be forced to say a prayer to Jesus instead.  Then they could benefit from the exercise too.


True. It would have made more sense to use the American flag since there is a better chance the students would be American. And for many, you would have a similar outcome.
 
2013-03-24 01:22:38 PM
Special snowflakes in college are special.
 
2013-03-24 01:22:41 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.


There's really no way to "win" the argument when it comes to religion or politics. There's no persuasion, no charitable way to talk about the point when you meet someone who thinks differently than you on those matters, regardless of your own belief system when it comes to religion or politics.  You can talk about them amongst friends just fine... but in company where you're expected to be polite because you don't know those people, religion or politics is probably best left unstated.

/of course, welcome to fark and all that, it's always okay to insult people of the other persuasion or something
 
2013-03-24 01:23:22 PM
The townhall.com website is a fright! Jeez!!!!
 
2013-03-24 01:24:11 PM
standupforthetruth.com

1. Print this picture
2. Make a video desecrating it in some creative and hilariously entering fashion
3. Post video to YouTube
4. Post link on Fark
5. Discuss the importance of symbols in culture.
 
2013-03-24 01:24:15 PM

ginandbacon: I think I could see how being asked to write the name of your divine spirit on a piece of paper and then being required to step on it might be offensive. I'm not sure who designed this particular exercise, but it kind of sucks ass. There are much better ways IMHO to teach how hypocritical and ridiculous many religious teachings are without doing dishonor to the essential message behind them which is essentially love and tolerance. Jesus was a great man in many respects and even as an atheist, I'm not sure I would want to write out his name and then stomp on it.


Nobody was required to step on the paper. In fact, the lesson specifically contemplates that students will refuse to step on the paper. The ensuing discussion focuses on why.

Notably absent from the article, in fact, is any mention of whether or not any students actually did choose to step on the paper. Given that this is a right-wing ZOMG WER BEAN PERSECOOTED propaganda piece, it is more probable than not that nobody did. The author would surely focus on such a fact in order to generate more outrage.
 
2013-03-24 01:25:58 PM
RIP Critical Thinking 469 B.C. -- 2013 A.D.
 
2013-03-24 01:26:04 PM

vpb: FloydA:

Sounds like the students were not "forced" to step on the paper at all.  The point of the exercise was to get the students to think about  why they didn't want to step on the paper.  Sounds like a potentially interesting exercise, but conducted in a ham-handed way.

Assuming that a Town hall article is even loosely based on reality.


I have seen no other source that quoted  the textbook and the assignment's purpose.
 
2013-03-24 01:26:07 PM
So, what are the chances the student disrupted class and started an argument about the lesson which was the actual reason for "getting suspended from class" if that even happened?
 
2013-03-24 01:26:17 PM
FTA: "Fox News obtained a synopsis of the lesson taught by Deandre Poole, who also happens to be vice chair of the Palm Beach County Democratic Party."

No, no trace of bias there at all.
 
2013-03-24 01:28:04 PM
Professor forces a student to violate his religious beliefs

blog.angelatung.com
 
2013-03-24 01:28:07 PM

pc_doc_54: FTA: "Fox News obtained a synopsis of the lesson taught by Deandre Poole, who also happens to be vice chair of the Palm Beach County Democratic Party."

No, no trace of bias there at all.


Democrats hate Jesus. Everyone knows that.
 
2013-03-24 01:28:09 PM

Happy Hours: FloydA: Happy Hours: The university did not explain why students were only instructed to write the name of Jesus - and not the name of Mohammed or another religious figure.

Oh, that's easy. They would be the target of terrorist attacks and called "racist" if they had told the students to write Mohammed.

Also, "Mohammed" is harder to spell than Jesus and most of the student would probably have been unable to do so.

Muslim students would hesitate before stepping on the name of Jesus, because they consider him one of the great prophets.  Many American Christian students would not hesitate to step on the name of Mohammed, so they would not have learned the lesson that the exercise was intended to teach.

Which was what exactly?

The article fails to mention that and in the interest of getting a more objective view I've read a CBS article about this which also failed to explain what lesson it was trying to teach.

What was the lesson?

Is it that students will stomp on the name of a religious figure they believe in if an authority figure tells them to?

Is it that Jesus represents a religion that has had many things done in its name that were unjust?

Is it something completely different?

Do you even know what lesson was trying to be taught?


Yes, because I RTFA.
 
2013-03-24 01:28:18 PM
This flash popup which assaulted my eyes when I clicked on this link says it all
img835.imageshack.us

Your typical paranoid right-wing yee-haw god-bothering types.
 
2013-03-24 01:28:20 PM

Weaver95: Happy Hours:
To quote one of my favorite movies "It's a test designed to provoke an emotional response". Emotion is not intellect. It is not learning. There are hundreds of ways to demonstrate that symbols are very powerful things without targeting the students religions - or patriotism - and asking them to denigrate either.

But if you REALLY want to get someone's attention, then jump starting their emotions is a good way to go about doing it.  the tricky part is calming them down and getting them back to talking about things in a rational manner.  it's a valid approach and it can work...but it's not easy to pull off.


Remember the spider that lived outside your window? Orange body, green legs. Watched her build a web all summer, then one day there's a big egg in it. The egg hatched...
 
2013-03-24 01:29:32 PM
I'm sure they mean it in a derogatory manner, but it's pretty ironic when you consider that the Lamb of God (aka Jesus Christ) is the figure in the Bible who opens the Seals of the Apocalypse, and is responsible for summoning the Horsemen for the final Revelation.

Basically, the crazy fundie nutjobs are inadvertently comparing Obama to Jesus. Go figure.

/The more you know!
//Knowing = Battle / 2
 
2013-03-24 01:29:54 PM

rkiller1: eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?
This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.

Not really. It's a cause de jure, as are LGBT rights, abortion, gun control, racism and Washington politics.  Wait a few weeks and other de jure issue will cycle through MSNBC.  Wait a few years and we'll be right back here.   You know, circle of life and all.
/Whatever sells, sells.



Note: "De Jure" is a Latin term that means "concerning the law."   "Du Jour" is a French phrase means "of the day" or "made for a particular time."

For example
"De jure discrimination" might refer to legally enforced Jim Crow laws prior to the ivil Rights Act of 1965, while "soup du jour" might refer to cream of broccoli.

The two terms sound similar, but misusing them can cause serious confusion.
 
2013-03-24 01:30:24 PM

mekki: SkinnyHead: The exercise is pointless for those students who have no reverence for Jesus.  Those students should be forced to say a prayer to Jesus instead.  Then they could benefit from the exercise too.

True. It would have made more sense to use the American flag since there is a better chance the students would be American. And for many, you would have a similar outcome.


There's more discussion to be had when everybody in the class does not look up to the symbol in question, like say an atheist student who decides not to step on the paper.

Plus it's probably cheaper and quicker to have each student write JESUS on a piece of paper then it is to draw or print out hundreds of copies of an American flag.
 
2013-03-24 01:30:32 PM
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-24 01:30:49 PM
The exercise seems fine to me. Stomp or don't stomp it's just a prop to get the discussion going. Now the university contradicts the student's claim that he was suspended. I'm thinking that Jesus boy was lying about that one. Universities don't suspend students for piddly little things like not participating or making a valid complaint.
 
2013-03-24 01:30:52 PM

GAT_00: St_Francis_P: Dinki: Professor forces a student to violate his religious beliefs.

Does Mormonism have a tenet that you can't step on the name of Jesus?

Probably just the opposite. The Bible warns about idolatry and the worship of graven images. He should have stomped that piece of paper good to prove his faith.

I've always liked that Christians pray every week to a God who condemned them for false idols while being surrounded by false idols.


unless you are catholic the most you will see in a protestant church is a cross. The fundies bash the catholics for praying to Mary the Saints, etc.
 
2013-03-24 01:30:57 PM
The kid wasn't kicked out of the classroom for refusing the assignment. he was kicked out for playing the "Whine to the Media" card.
 
2013-03-24 01:31:15 PM
So... What's the actual title of the class? It uses a book on intercultural communication...

You want to teach people about what it's like to have their religious positions blasphemed against you might have to blaspheme their religious positions. Welcome to college.

Wait until you hear the ethical vegans biatch and moan about having to do dissections in order to get their BS in Biology.
 
2013-03-24 01:31:15 PM

houstondragon: eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.

Most major wars and a great deal of historical murdering sprees tend to come from arguing over who has the coolest sky wizard.

Or by not showing the appropriate level of fanaticism towards said sky wizard when confronted.

/See: Crusades
//Or: Inquisition
///Or: Romans vs Christians
////Or: Dark Ages
//Etc etc etc


All dwarfed by the murdering sprees of those arguing that no sky wizard exists.

/See:  Stalin
//Or Mao
///Etc, etc, etc
 
2013-03-24 01:32:16 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.


Holdover, I think, from the founding period. Some of the original colonies were actually founded for the purpose of the members exercising their religious freedom (but not anyone else's). But the principle of religious neutrality got generalized and institutionalized in the Constitution. Quite a difference, when you think about it, from almost every other nation/culture on the planet, where there is generally an official State religion (this even in  societies where other religions are allowed). America is essentially unique in this regard. This actually makes sense in terms of the founders' deism.

Way too much blood has been spilled over the ages in the name of religion. This generally happens when one set of religious beliefs attains a lock on the power of the State. The answer is to keep them institutionally separate.

That does NOT mean getting the vapors every time some city councilman or senator professes that he is an evangelical Christian or even a Muslim - or a Mormon. Individual belief is NOT the same as institutional support. But trying to explain the nuance of that to fundamentalist atheists is generally a lost cause. (I know this for a fact: my wife and I go to periodic atheist hookups. Some of these people are more irrational that fundie Xians.)
 
2013-03-24 01:32:18 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?


Complex historical reasons. A lot of it is tied up into what gets to count in a historically Protestant public square as "legitimate religion" in legal terms and what gets counted instead as "Popery" (Catholicism),  "Paganism"(Amerindian traditions), or "Cults" (Mormons). There is a vast literature on it. Good case in point would be the Mormon tradition.
 
2013-03-24 01:34:12 PM

Weaver95: SkinnyHead: The exercise is pointless for those students who have no reverence for Jesus.  Those students should be forced to say a prayer to Jesus instead.  Then they could benefit from the exercise too.

oddly enough, I'm ok with that.  it would be in line with the lesson the professor was trying to teach.


Except that nobody was required to step on the paper. And TrollHead's premise is false anyway. The exercise is certainly instructive even for students with no reverence for Jesus. Let's assume one fact, and infer another:

1) Let's assume there was at least one student present with no reverence for Jesus. I would say infer this, but the article doesn't mention how many students were present. But it's reasonable to assume that in any normal sized class at a secular university there's at least one non-Christian.

2) Let's infer from the article's failure to report whether anyone actually did step on the paper that no one did. It is a strong inference given that the article's sole purpose is to generate outrage. Had any students stepped on the paper, the article would have emphasized that point to make people madder.

Given those two facts, it is certainly instructive to that student that s/he chose not to step on the paper. It is likewise instructive for other students who do revere Jesus to learn why those who don't revere Jesus chose not to step on it.
 
2013-03-24 01:34:18 PM

Igor Jakovsky: GAT_00: St_Francis_P: Dinki: Professor forces a student to violate his religious beliefs.

Does Mormonism have a tenet that you can't step on the name of Jesus?

Probably just the opposite. The Bible warns about idolatry and the worship of graven images. He should have stomped that piece of paper good to prove his faith.

I've always liked that Christians pray every week to a God who condemned them for false idols while being surrounded by false idols.

unless you are catholic the most you will see in a protestant church is a cross. The fundies bash the catholics for praying to Mary the Saints, etc.


The cross is a false idol.
 
2013-03-24 01:34:28 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.

Holdover, I think, from the founding period. Some of the original colonies were actually founded for the purpose of the members exercising their religious freedom (but not anyone else's). But the principle of religious neutrality got generalized and institutionalized in the Constitution. Quite a difference, when you think about it, from almost every other nation/culture on the planet, where there is generally an official State religion (this even in  societies where other religions are allowed). America is essentially unique in this regard. This actually makes sense in terms of the founders' deism.

Way too much blood has been spilled over the ages in the name of religion. This generally happens when one set of religious beliefs attains a lock on the power of the State. The answer is to keep them institutionally separate.

That does NOT mean getting the vapors every time some city councilman or senator professes that he is an evangelical Christian or even a Muslim - or a Mormon. Individual belief is NOT the same as institutional support. But trying to explain the nuance of that to fundamentalist atheists is generally a lost cause. (I know this for a fact: my wife and I go to periodic atheist hookups. Some of these people are more irrational that fundie Xians.)


BTW, I'm shocked and appalled that we have not yet seen the old and busted "We're being oppressed" pie chart meme yet. Come ON, Farkers, you're slipping!!!!
 
2013-03-24 01:35:41 PM

SkinnyHead: The exercise is pointless for those students who have no reverence for Jesus.  Those students should be forced to say a prayer to Jesus instead.  Then they could benefit from the exercise too.


As an atheist, I'd have absolutely zero problem saying some ritual words about a two-millenia-dead prophet of a non-existent deity, its empty symbolism. So no, they wouldn't be benefiting from that.
 
2013-03-24 01:35:56 PM

Tellurium: I see you don't believe in apostrophes either.


I am a huge grammar nazi but seriously? Respond to the point, not the typing. People post from phones and whatnot which tends to lead to a lack of apostrophes and such. None of it leads to a lack of understanding. If you didn't get the point  raerae1980was making, that's on you and you should be ashamed.
 
2013-03-24 01:35:58 PM
If the professor had stones he would have had the students draw Mohammed after the stomp on Jesus exercise.
 
2013-03-24 01:36:24 PM

RickN99: houstondragon: eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.

Most major wars and a great deal of historical murdering sprees tend to come from arguing over who has the coolest sky wizard.

Or by not showing the appropriate level of fanaticism towards said sky wizard when confronted.

/See: Crusades
//Or: Inquisition
///Or: Romans vs Christians
////Or: Dark Ages
//Etc etc etc

All dwarfed by the murdering sprees of those arguing that no sky wizard exists.

/See:  Stalin
//Or Mao
///Etc, etc, etc


i105.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-24 01:36:38 PM
"Discuss the importance of symbols in culture."


Seems like the assignment succeeded more than the professor could have ever hoped.
 
2013-03-24 01:36:53 PM

eraser8: Is there a reason our society treats religious ideas so much more gingerly than other kinds of ideas?

This isn't a troll. I'm seriously asking.


Because people go farking crazy when they feel their belief systems are threatened.
This goes beyond standard concepts of religion and extends into beliefs about economics, gender roles and other areas where most people aren't operating on rationally derived information as much as they are operating on beliefs derived from heritage and heuristics.
 
2013-03-24 01:36:57 PM
Kid wasn't even suspended, so this is...
 
2013-03-24 01:37:35 PM
GAT_00:

I've always liked that Christians pray every week to a God who condemned them for false idols while being surrounded by American Idol.

FTFY
 
2013-03-24 01:37:37 PM

Mrtraveler01: Happy Hours: I read an article from CBS and the Palm Beach Post. Those aren't exactly Al Jazeera, the BBC or even the PBS News Hour, but I do consider them to be news outlets more respectable than Townhall or WND.

I'm not too sure about the CBS affiliate in West Palm, they got bought out by Sinclair who has been known for having a pro-Republican bias in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group#Controversies


You should stick to the palm beach post if you want liberal bias then.
 
2013-03-24 01:37:47 PM

bugontherug: Weaver95: SkinnyHead: The exercise is pointless for those students who have no reverence for Jesus.  Those students should be forced to say a prayer to Jesus instead.  Then they could benefit from the exercise too.

oddly enough, I'm ok with that.  it would be in line with the lesson the professor was trying to teach.

Except that nobody was required to step on the paper. And TrollHead's premise is false anyway. The exercise is certainly instructive even for students with no reverence for Jesus. Let's assume one fact, and infer another:

1) Let's assume there was at least one student present with no reverence for Jesus. I would say infer this, but the article doesn't mention how many students were present. But it's reasonable to assume that in any normal sized class at a secular university there's at least one non-Christian.

2) Let's infer from the article's failure to report whether anyone actually did step on the paper that no one did. It is a strong inference given that the article's sole purpose is to generate outrage. Had any students stepped on the paper, the article would have emphasized that point to make people madder.

Given those two facts, it is certainly instructive to that student that s/he chose not to step on the paper. It is likewise instructive for other students who do revere Jesus to learn why those who don't revere Jesus chose not to step on it.


the lesson was ill-advised. Could have achieved the same lesson with having each student write his or her mother's name and discuss why they were hesitant to stomp on a paper with words on it to explore the importance of symbols.

You love this lesson precisely because it was ill-advised and bothered someone whose offense you take pleasure in.
Fortunately, such an attitude isn't necessary to make the same point.
 
2013-03-24 01:38:07 PM

houstondragon: consider that the Lamb of God


Always makes me crave chislic.
 
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