If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Popular Mechanics)   AWD is over-rated because some reporter who test drives the car, and parks in an underground garage thinks AWD isn't needed and snow tires will do. Wait till he sees the pictures from Lancashire today   (popularmechanics.com) divider line 185
    More: Dumbass, AWD, parking garage, Dodge Viper, laws of physics  
•       •       •

13204 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2013 at 7:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



185 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-03-24 12:34:02 AM
i306.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-24 01:06:19 AM
Was it full of holes?

/did they have to count them all?
 
2013-03-24 01:25:26 AM
AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.
 
2013-03-24 07:34:48 AM
AWD is not some magic end all be all. Anyway, I prefer RWD,
 
2013-03-24 07:41:34 AM
Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.
 
2013-03-24 07:42:02 AM
D.Baggins in TFA "good set of tires beats AWD"

Ok, so put good set of tires on AWD, and......? What? Divide by zero?
 
2013-03-24 07:42:03 AM
 I'm just incensed by those who fudge its ability beyond all recognition. AWD is great at aiding accelerating on slick surfaces and keeping a vehicle moving on snowy roads. Rally racers like AWD because it helps their over-powered cars accelerate on gravel and dirt paths. I co-drove an AWD car to victory in a 24-hour race, and in the rain I enjoyed how the car accelerated off the corners.

Subby needs to apply tag to himself.
 
2013-03-24 07:43:37 AM

traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.


What about snow tires and AWD?
 
2013-03-24 07:43:52 AM

Happy Hours: There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.


4WD won't help you stop but it may help you get going. IF you have a locking differential. If you don't then you're almost always just as screwed.

traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.


I had someone try to convince me that snow tires were some sort of magic super glue. Hell I learned to drive on near bald tires. Slow down you're not going to change the laws of physics.
 
2013-03-24 07:43:58 AM
Prefer front wheel drive in the snow. My hyundai accent is great in heavy snow, motherfarker is like Legolas at Carahdras. Plus it's my shiat car I don't care if it gets wrecked.. that's a kind of freedom all to itself.
 
2013-03-24 07:44:14 AM
I hate people who think AWD means they're immune to ice.  You can always tell who doesn't know what the fark they're doing when it starts snowing and there's a layer of ice on the road.  There's more to winter driving than just have four tires spinning at the same time.
 
2013-03-24 07:46:20 AM

Happy Hours: AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.


Yes, yes there is.

www.famouslogos.us
 
2013-03-24 07:46:33 AM
AWD is better for traction, single-axle drives are better for efficiency, completely fixed differential (4WD) is better for power.

None of them will do a goddamned thing for you if Fhorizontal > μstatic*Fnormal .

//This isn't rocket science, nor is "take claims made by sales reps with a grain of salt".
 
2013-03-24 07:48:00 AM

Dalek Caan's doomed mistress: I hate people who think AWD means they're immune to ice.  You can always tell who doesn't know what the fark they're doing when it starts snowing and there's a layer of ice on the road.  There's more to winter driving than just have four tires spinning at the same time.


I love snowy days. The drive to work is amusing. So many crashed suvs. Suvs stuck. Suv's spun out. Big four wheel drive giant pickups stuck. There should be a cheezeburger site about crashed 4wds.
 
2013-03-24 07:51:26 AM
The article is absolutely correct. AWD is great for moving in slippery conditions, but it does dick all for handling. The increased traction off snow tires is far more important. Now for acceleration, it's great.

Always fun to see the Jeep drivers in a ditch because they think a Wrangle will corner well in the snow.
 
2013-03-24 07:52:42 AM
It's possible I missed an 'r' in there.
 
2013-03-24 07:52:57 AM
I've been  driving a 4WD for many years, and I live in the midwest.
It helps in some situations.
You're less likely to get stuck going up a hill, you don't have to wait for as big a gap when turning left across traffic, and you can move smartly through an intersection.
Other than that, the only other benefit of 4WD is a slightly better chance of driving yourself out of a ditch.
It most certainly doesn't make you immune to physics.
 
2013-03-24 08:00:41 AM
In snow, Dad taught me: 1. to drive slower than you think you should,  2. have a car with FWD, manual transmission and decent snow tires and 3. push the gas pedal and brakes like there's a raw egg between your foot and the pedal. Try not to break the egg.
 
2013-03-24 08:01:39 AM
I love 4wd. Then again, if I didn't have it my suv would just be a rear wheel drive truck. Which let me tell you it sucks to have a RWD truck during a Michigan winter.
 
2013-03-24 08:02:26 AM

ChubbyTiger: Always fun to see the Jeep drivers in a ditch because they think a Wrangle will corner well in the snow.


Yeah, but if I ever got in a ditch when I had my Wrangler...I just drove right back out of it.
 
2013-03-24 08:06:18 AM
That writer seemed to miss the concept of "hills". I live at the top of a fairly steep hill.Pretty well only AWD vehicles make it up here during heavy snow. That's why I got one.
 
2013-03-24 08:06:25 AM

I alone am best: I love 4wd. Then again, if I didn't have it my suv would just be a rear wheel drive truck. Which let me tell you it sucks to have a RWD truck during a Michigan winter.


Yeah, I have a rwd pickup truck in Ohio, I drove my "who gives a fark" car all winter instead, heh.
 
2013-03-24 08:07:42 AM
My favorite winter hobby is counting the AWD/4WD cars off the side of the highway.  It's a nice slow speed tool, but does squat otherwise.
 
2013-03-24 08:08:25 AM
I live in Wisconsin, and the biggest problem is the people who drive at both ends of the spectrum. The idiots that drive full speed on snow and ice are just as bad as those who drive way too slow. You get caught between those driving 30 mph too fast and those driving 30 mph too slow. If your so freaked out by the snow that you won't go faster than 15 mph on the freeway, then stay off the freaking road.
 
2013-03-24 08:11:47 AM

neongoats: I alone am best: I love 4wd. Then again, if I didn't have it my suv would just be a rear wheel drive truck. Which let me tell you it sucks to have a RWD truck during a Michigan winter.

Yeah, I have a rwd pickup truck in Ohio, I drove my "who gives a fark" car all winter instead, heh.


Before I bought this trailblazer I had a dodge dakota, The thing I remember about that truck the most is I could never turn from a side street onto a road that was going up hill if it was slushy. I had to pickup speed just to make it up a 10 degree incline.
 
2013-03-24 08:13:07 AM

BigBooper: e who drive way too slow. You get caught between those driving 30 mph too fast and those driving 30 mph too slow. If your so freaked out by the snow that you won't go faster than 15 mph on the freeway, then stay off the freaking road.


This!  I'm just across the border in Iowa. Drive slower yes, but ffs don't be that dick that's driving 10mph on the interstate.

/drove to work on snow covered roads this morning..getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2013-03-24 08:16:21 AM
Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.
 
2013-03-24 08:18:07 AM
It's always fun to drive slowly past the a-hole who just sped past you and then went off the road a little ways ahead of you. I live in Pittsburgh - the hills+road quality (none)+snow=doesn't matter what your car has if you don't slow the f*** down. I think the writer is basically trying to tell people that AWD are not the magical machines in snow and ice that the industry has perpetuated to sell that 50k SUV to the avaerage soccer mom.
 
2013-03-24 08:18:42 AM

Ker_Thwap: My favorite winter hobby is counting the AWD/4WD cars off the side of the highway.  It's a nice slow speed tool, but does squat otherwise.


Those vehicles are not on the sides of the highways because of AWD/4WD false sense of secrity, they are there because the drivers of them are dumb, they'd be there in any vehicle they happen to be driving.
 
2013-03-24 08:19:35 AM
The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics.
 
2013-03-24 08:21:18 AM

Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.


Studded are illegal in some states, mine included.  I think...
 
2013-03-24 08:23:20 AM

Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.


Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.
 
2013-03-24 08:23:34 AM

Broktun: traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

What about snow tires and AWD?


Thats my thought.That combo should produce a great snow condition car.

Ill mildly agree that in snow conditions the snow tires on any car are a bit better than all season tires on AWD...but if you live in a place that has a long snow season your should be putting snow tires on your car no matter what drive it is.

It should also be noted that "all season" tires suck, unless you are buying top $$ brands. Even then they still arent so great. I personally tend to run directional V tread tires in all seasons here in FL, and they do great, even in heavy rain.


BigBooper: I live in Wisconsin, and the biggest problem is the people who drive at both ends of the spectrum. The idiots that drive full speed on snow and ice are just as bad as those who drive way too slow. You get caught between those driving 30 mph too fast and those driving 30 mph too slow. If your so freaked out by the snow that you won't go faster than 15 mph on the freeway, then stay off the freaking road.


QFT.

Ker_Thwap: My favorite winter hobby is counting the AWD/4WD cars off the side of the highway.  It's a nice slow speed tool, but does squat otherwise.


QFT as well. Too many people think 4WD and AWD are magic, and they count on them far too much.

DoomPaul: AWD is not some magic end all be all. Anyway, I prefer RWD,


Ever driven a high powered RWD car in the rain? I had an 89 Firebird Formula 350, mildly modded. Its was the slowest car on the road when it was wet. 350+ ft/lb of torque and 245 width tires arent a good combination if its not completely dry. It would kick the rear end out with even mild throttle application.

This was in the days before traction control, stability control, and all the other electronic nannies you wimps these days rely on. You actually had to know how to drive a car, not point it in a direction and expect the computer to keep it out of the ditch for you.
 
2013-03-24 08:25:56 AM

SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics.


Just don't slow down  too much. Especially if you are in a state where snow is measured in feet.  In general, we are better at driving in it than people who are not from there.  It's completely reasonable to drive 45-50mph in a couple inches of snow as long as you don't run into (literaly) some asshat going 10mph in the one good lane.  Ice is a different story, but some types of snow have some traction to it.  Especially if the DOT has gotten some sand out before the storm.
 
2013-03-24 08:27:05 AM
Driver skill is far more important than any mechanical device. If you don't know how to drive on snow or ice it doesn't matter if you have AWD and snow tyres you will end up wrapped around a tree or telephone pole.

Plus Lancashire sucks
 
2013-03-24 08:27:26 AM

Kimpak: Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.

Studded are illegal in some states, mine included.  I think...


Those tires he mentioned are great even without the studs (rubber stays soft and grippy in lower temps), but I would recommend sticking with the proper tire size for your vehicle if you don't or can't use studs.
 
2013-03-24 08:27:38 AM

Kimpak: ChubbyTiger: Always fun to see the Jeep drivers in a ditch because they think a Wrangle will corner well in the snow.

Yeah, but if I ever got in a ditch when I had my Wrangler...I just drove right back out of it.


If you know what you're doing, sure. Most Jeep/SUV drivers have no idea. Of course, that's why they were in the ditch to begin with.
 
2013-03-24 08:29:22 AM

Kenny B:


Is...is that a Fiat Panda?

If it is, I know someone who would like a word with you...
 
2013-03-24 08:30:00 AM

Kimpak: SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics.

Just don't slow down  too much. Especially if you are in a state where snow is measured in feet.  In general, we are better at driving in it than people who are not from there.  It's completely reasonable to drive 45-50mph in a couple inches of snow as long as you don't run into (literaly) some asshat going 10mph in the one good lane.  Ice is a different story, but some types of snow have some traction to it.  Especially if the DOT has gotten some sand out before the storm.


Yeah, true. Don't become a hazard. I was referring mostly those who pass everybody else doing 70 and end up in a ditch two miles down the interstate.
 
2013-03-24 08:33:20 AM

ChubbyTiger: Kimpak: ChubbyTiger: Always fun to see the Jeep drivers in a ditch because they think a Wrangle will corner well in the snow.

Yeah, but if I ever got in a ditch when I had my Wrangler...I just drove right back out of it.

If you know what you're doing, sure. Most Jeep/SUV drivers have no idea. Of course, that's why they were in the ditch to begin with.


Hey I never had a problem in bad weather in my wranglers. Sunny days get me in trouble :) 4wd, short wheel base, mud tires and manual transmission equals win.

Dunno how people drive automatics.... Downshifting is so nice in slick conditions
 
2013-03-24 08:34:11 AM

neongoats: Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.

Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.


What side of the Cascades will you be on? The west-siders really only need good rain tires and studs lose traction in purely wet weather. I would only recommend studded tires on the east side or if you routinely go up the mountains to ski.
 
2013-03-24 08:36:00 AM

RaistlinsLegacy: Hey I never had a problem in bad weather in my wranglers. Sunny days get me in trouble :) 4wd, short wheel base, mud tires and manual transmission equals win.

Dunno how people drive automatics.... Downshifting is so nice in slick conditions


QFT!  Its hard to find a decent new car with a proper manual.  Flappy paddles do not count.  I miss my jeep, but it became too expensive to feed.
 
2013-03-24 08:36:36 AM

SnarfVader: neongoats: Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.

Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.

What side of the Cascades will you be on? The west-siders really only need good rain tires and studs lose traction in purely wet weather. I would only recommend studded tires on the east side or if you routinely go up the mountains to ski.


Oh. I just reread your post. I have a set of Pirelli's that do awesome in the rain. I didn't know they made truck tires until I got mine.
 
2013-03-24 08:36:56 AM

jafiwam: Happy Hours: AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.

Yes, yes there is.

[www.famouslogos.us image 430x173]


Amen brother.

AWD may not be a panacea, but it is one hell of a lot more fun in the snow. Nancies need not apply (ie. stay home).
 
2013-03-24 08:37:17 AM
I learned to drive in the snow in a Lincoln Mark IV with crappy tires, the first time I hit dry pavement I was confused.  Other than the fun factor of playing around with controlled drifts, RWD is a pain in the snow.
 
2013-03-24 08:38:05 AM

Broktun: traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

What about snow tires and AWD?


How about a six pack and just stay the fark home?
 
2013-03-24 08:41:32 AM

Kimpak: BigBooper: e who drive way too slow. You get caught between those driving 30 mph too fast and those driving 30 mph too slow. If your so freaked out by the snow that you won't go faster than 15 mph on the freeway, then stay off the freaking road.

This!  I'm just across the border in Iowa. Drive slower yes, but ffs don't be that dick that's driving 10mph on the interstate.

/drove to work on snow covered roads this morning..getting a kick out of this thread.


You learn not to drive too slow when you find out that lack of momentum means you start sliding backwards and sideways.  Then again, if you think the person in front of you is driving too slow on the highway, man up and pass them in the unplowed left lane, don't tailgate them hoping they get the hint.
 
2013-03-24 08:42:26 AM

Kimpak: Those vehicles are not on the sides of the highways because of AWD/4WD false sense of secrity, they are there because the drivers of them are dumb, they'd be there in any vehicle they happen to be driving.


This

Norfolking Chance: Driver skill is far more important than any mechanical device. If you don't know how to drive on snow or ice it doesn't matter if you have AWD and snow tyres you will end up wrapped around a tree or telephone pole.


I have an AWD now but before that is was all RWD and I never got stuck.  You have to drive with the knowledge that if at all possible you do not want to touch your brakes.  AWD helps but doesn't allow you to ignore physics.

/that said as a teen I took a big Chrysler New Yorker with a 400 V8 up a steep hill at around 5 actual mph.  Now my speedometer read around 60 and I was basically sideways all the way up.  I don't think I would attempt that now.
 
2013-03-24 08:42:32 AM

SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics be considerate and stay home until spring.


FTFY.
 
2013-03-24 08:42:48 AM

Kimpak: RaistlinsLegacy: Hey I never had a problem in bad weather in my wranglers. Sunny days get me in trouble :) 4wd, short wheel base, mud tires and manual transmission equals win.

Dunno how people drive automatics.... Downshifting is so nice in slick conditions

QFT!  Its hard to find a decent new car with a proper manual.  Flappy paddles do not count.  I miss my jeep, but it became too expensive to feed.


Just Empty Every Pocket. I've never owned anything but wranglers.... And hunting for friggen manuals is getting harder. Depressing.

Guy at work was talking about his "almost manual ford focus" WTF is almost manual?
 
2013-03-24 08:44:10 AM

CarnySaur: You learn not to drive too slow when you find out that lack of momentum means you start sliding backwards and sideways.  Then again, if you think the person in front of you is driving too slow on the highway, man up and pass them in the unplowed left lane, don't tailgate them hoping they get the hint.


Agreed, because they will never 'get the hint'.  Also you're probably just making them more nervous and thus more apt to do something stupid.  But it is agonizing getting stuck behind them until an appropriate passing opportunity arises.
 
2013-03-24 08:47:11 AM

jafiwam: Happy Hours: AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.

Yes, yes there is.

[www.famouslogos.us image 430x173]


I've heard people proclaim that Subaru's are great in snow so much that I almost believe it, but I've never driven one. I'm not sure why that is other than I think they're all made with AWD, I don't believe they can defy the laws of physics though. If you're driving on a sheet of ice or there's very little friction you'd best slow down and avoid heavy braking.

You also can't floor it when the light turns green, I don't care how many wheels are fighting to gain traction. And be careful when cornering too.
 
2013-03-24 08:49:23 AM
Guy at work was talking about his "almost manual ford focus" WTF is almost manual?

Some sort of auto stick?  You can drive it like a manual with no clutch.  I'd love a manual but with my commute I wouldn't want it for everyday driving.
 
2013-03-24 08:53:39 AM
It's been said, but common sense and taking things slow is the best bet. Living in Maine, I have driven in snow all my life, and rarely gotten stuck. And I have owned fwd, rwd and awd

I would say the author is downplaying how much AWD can help, because in New England, there are alot of hills, and fwd will only get you so far on them.
 
2013-03-24 08:58:24 AM
I drive a RWD G8 GT through our (admittedly underwhelming) winters.  Snow tires aren't glue, per se, but do offer much superior traction to all-season tires.  The traction control doesn't tend to come on very often unless you drive like a moron.

Constrast this with the Monte Carlo SS I drove some quarter century ago.  It was also a RWD v8 (but with waaaay less hp), but was equipped with some suck-ass gatorbacks.  Got caught in that early snow of October 1987 in upstate NY, and that drive was definitely. not. fun.

/ have driven awd--it's great for launching off the line, and very good offroad.  On pavement...kind of overkill, and pretty expensive to maintain from my experience.
 
2013-03-24 09:01:39 AM

Happy Hours: I've heard people proclaim that Subaru's are great in snow so much that I almost believe it, but I've never driven one. I'm not sure why that is other than I think they're all made with AWD, I don't believe they can defy the laws of physics though. If you're driving on a sheet of ice or there's very little friction you'd best slow down and avoid heavy braking.

You also can't floor it when the light turns green, I don't care how many wheels are fighting to gain traction. And be careful when cornering too.


My guess is that they are lower to the ground than alot of other AWDs.
 
2013-03-24 09:06:24 AM

Nick Nostril: SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics be considerate and stay home until spring.

FTFY.


fark off. I know how to drive in the snow. People like you are the problem.
 
2013-03-24 09:08:14 AM
http://www.nokiantyres.com/winter-driving-school  the tires I put all the way around on my RWD Volvo 240 made a huge difference.
 
2013-03-24 09:13:00 AM

SnarfVader: Nick Nostril: SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics be considerate and stay home until spring.

FTFY.

fark off. I know how to drive in the snow. People like you are the problem.


and people like you are the ones that wind up closing the roads down when they decide to play ping pong with the guard rails and the other cars and make me have to sit there for 6 hrs before i find out that they have closed the road because of morons that dont slow the fark down when the weather is bad
 
2013-03-24 09:15:54 AM

jafiwam: Happy Hours: AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.

Yes, yes there is.

[www.famouslogos.us image 430x173]



Yup.  Subaru awd rocks.   Lots of vehicles "claim" to have awd but when they are tested, only a small percentage of torque is ever applied to the other wheels..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=0_MXK2nzt2Y&NR=1
 
2013-03-24 09:19:58 AM
Snow tires?  I thought those went away in the 70s.

I have AWD and never thought it would help me corner or stop.  It sure works nice to go, however.  Most of the time FWD works fine and maybe I don't "need" AWD, but there have been a number of times I wouldn't have headed out without AWD.
 
2013-03-24 09:22:28 AM
Snow tires + FWD will beat AWD with all seasons on a plowed road with no hills, but that is nowhere near reality.   Imagine a typical scenario where you have to go down a big hill and up the next steep one.   If you go safe and slow down the hill, you will probably not make it up the next.   Most cars today strive for a 50/50 weight balance, which is nice in the dry but does not give you traction on a heavy fwd car going up a big hill.   Instead you have to fly down the hill and hope the momentum carries you back up the next.   In AWD, you can go slow down and have the traction to get up the other side.

Another nice part about Subies is the viscous center diff, that locks up when you have a big front/back wheel speed difference.   If your front tires start to slip and lock up during light braking on an icy surface, the drivetrain will increase the brake bias to the rear wheels through the center diff.   The same with downshifting to brake while going down an icy hill.   Instead of your steering wheels slipping, the force tends to equalize and you maintain traction.
 
2013-03-24 09:29:17 AM
Yes, snow tires would make a great gift.
 
2013-03-24 09:30:33 AM
I love  my snow tires.

They let me climb hills in a rear wheel drive sports car better then the fools in their 4x4 trucks with bald summer tires.
 
2013-03-24 09:33:39 AM

harbingerofdoom: SnarfVader: Nick Nostril: SnarfVader: The key is to slow the fark down in slick conditions, no matter what you drive. Just because you have a huge SUV and grew up where snow is measured in feet doesn't make you immune to the laws of physics be considerate and stay home until spring.

FTFY.

fark off. I know how to drive in the snow. People like you are the problem.

and people like you are the ones that wind up closing the roads down when they decide to play ping pong with the guard rails and the other cars and make me have to sit there for 6 hrs before i find out that they have closed the road because of morons that dont slow the fark down when the weather is bad


Who are you responding to? Because I've never ping ponged a guard rail in my life, nor do I speed in the snow.
 
2013-03-24 09:38:49 AM
and it provides the potential to be going so much faster when you need to stop.

this is true.  In my spiffy '75 Saab 99 I could haul ass in the snow but like 4wd trucks, front wheel drive did nothing for my reflexes or the brakes, or guard rail or light pole or parked truck not even for the front end or door assembly nor the rear axle.
-1 would not buy from again.  Left auto parts scattered across the road, truck and, sidewalk at 3am in a light snow storm.
 
2013-03-24 09:41:09 AM
Glad to see the general Fark consensus is that subby is the dumbass here. Will take dedicated snows on a rear wheel drive any day. Leave the traction and stability control at home. Watch me pull away from the 4wd in 80,000mi all-season tires. All. Day. Long.

Obviously, properly equipped 4wd is even more unstoppable.
 
2013-03-24 09:46:12 AM
I co-drove an AWD car to victory in a 24-hour race, and in the rain I enjoyed how the car accelerated off the corners.
However, my experience-hard-earned from wrecking more than one AWD vehicle during snow-handling tests for a tire company-is that AWD is counter-productive when the roads are slick.


yeah, what does this guy know!

/he's right on the money
//have a set of nokians on my RWD car right now
///and snow on the ground, goddamnit.
 
2013-03-24 09:46:38 AM
Just a couple of truisms about AWD: (some have already been mentioned)
1. It allows you to get yourself stuck in a more inaccessible place.
2. All vehicles are AWD when braking.  You get going too fast with AWD and false sense.
3. If it helped in handling, all race cars would be AWD (apologies to Audi Quatro).
4. It definitely helps in soft, muddy or snowy surfaces, not ice, nothing helps on ice.
5. It's a normal man's Porsche, figure it out.
6. Very few people need it, most who have it never need it, just like SUVs, mostly waste.
 
2013-03-24 09:48:58 AM

BenJammin: jafiwam: Happy Hours: AWD is not a panacea. We got dumped on earlier and I just had to drive in it. The major streets had been cleared but the side streets and parking lots were pretty bad.

There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.

Yes, yes there is.

[www.famouslogos.us image 430x173]


Yup.  Subaru awd rocks.   Lots of vehicles "claim" to have awd but when they are tested, only a small percentage of torque is ever applied to the other wheels..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=0_MXK2nzt2Y&NR=1


Subarus are magical in the snow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ONFvQToNdU


I've got a WRX Hatchback, WITH a set of snow tires, I run those Dec-Apr and the rest of the year I'm running my summer performance tires.  The tire makes a HUGE difference, every year there are people posting on NASIOC about how they didn't think they needed anything besides the stock tires and now their suspension is ruined.

I'm really impressed by the Audi AWD.  I lived in DC during the Snowmageddons a couple years ago and my little A4 went absolutely everywhere in the snow.  I was driving to Florida when the first one hit and it took 5 hours to get to Richmond.  I was the ONLY car on the bypass by time I reached it, every SUV that passed me had gone off the road and every exit prior to the bypass had a mile long line of cars looking to get off the road.  I stuck to the middle of 95 doing 35 mph(on All-seaon Pirellis) and never lost traction.   I had the Audi driving through WV on super slick roads as well and had absolutely no traction problems, my wife spun out in it once while following a semi on I-64 around Beckley, we went through the grass median and up into the other side of the highway but she was able to control the spin because of the AWD and got us safely to the other side of the road without damaging the car one bit.   I thought it was pretty awesome.
 
2013-03-24 09:49:02 AM
Step 1: Drive 4x4, double cab Toyota Tacoma.
Step 2: opt for stability control, traction control & optional rear locking differential.
Step 3: Install studded winter tires

With that combo, my truck really is pretty much unstoppable. My biggest problem are the other guys on the road, who think it's a smart idea to go over the pass with their bald tire mustang.

/leaving for the ski resort in 26 minutes
 
2013-03-24 09:49:17 AM
You'd think people know how to drive in snow around Cleveland? No, not true at all.  Works to my advantage though.  Everyone is scared of the left lane, so I have that to my self.  Even when you can still see the road, these people are driving 45-50 and scared to death.  All you need to do is leave a lot of space, don't slam on the brakes and ease off the gas around curves.

/Truly one of the worst driving areas in the country.
 
2013-03-24 09:58:16 AM
RE: Driving on snow/ice.
I work in Montreal occasionally.  They say it is 9 months of snow and 3 months of road repairs every year so traffic is testing for sure.
But they admit one thing, when the snows/ice comes no one knows how to drive on it and it is chaos for the first two weeks or so, then they figure it out or remember last year and settle down, drive at proper speeds and all goes well.
And they have road clearing equipment/capabilities.
 
2013-03-24 10:00:05 AM

oukewldave: You'd think people know how to drive in snow around Cleveland? No, not true at all.  Works to my advantage though.  Everyone is scared of the left lane, so I have that to my self.  Even when you can still see the road, these people are driving 45-50 and scared to death.  All you need to do is leave a lot of space, don't slam on the brakes and ease off the gas around curves.

/Truly one of the worst driving areas in the country.


One thing about guys that drive in the un-plowed lane, particularly in slush, YOU SUCK.  Spraying shiat all over the windshields of everyone else so they can't see.  45-50 is acceptable speed if there's only one good lane.
 
2013-03-24 10:07:14 AM

darkscout: Happy Hours: There's only one way to deal with that kind of mess. Slow down and avoid heavy braking. I only have FWD which may make acceleration more difficult than AWD but braking is different. I have brakes on all 4 wheels. I'm pretty sure all cars have brakes on all 4 wheels.

4WD won't help you stop but it may help you get going. IF you have a locking differential. If you don't then you're almost always just as screwed.

traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

I had someone try to convince me that snow tires were some sort of magic super glue. Hell I learned to drive on near bald tires. Slow down you're not going to change the laws of physics.


Tires make a huge difference. I have raced trucks on a skid course. Two trucks and thirty two people with brackets.

The same truck make, model, and year, but truck A had better tires and won every time. EVERY time.

So out of all the matchups, no driver was able to make up for the tire advantage.
 
2013-03-24 10:15:29 AM

Kimpak: oukewldave: You'd think people know how to drive in snow around Cleveland? No, not true at all.  Works to my advantage though.  Everyone is scared of the left lane, so I have that to my self.  Even when you can still see the road, these people are driving 45-50 and scared to death.  All you need to do is leave a lot of space, don't slam on the brakes and ease off the gas around curves.

/Truly one of the worst driving areas in the country.

One thing about guys that drive in the un-plowed lane, particularly in slush, YOU SUCK.  Spraying shiat all over the windshields of everyone else so they can't see.  45-50 is acceptable speed if there's only one good lane.


Sounds like someone is driving in conditions they shouldn't be.

If you don't feel safe on the road, then get off it.
 
2013-03-24 10:23:04 AM
In my experience, tires do make a huge difference regardless of the drivetrain.

Good all seasons +1,  Good Snow tires + 5.

AWD is probably another +2 or more  depending on the system, with some being superior to others.

Manual Transmission can help greatly depending on the torque and whether you need to slow down or accelerate.

The driver, of course, and the conditions are always variables.  With a lousy configuration, even a good driver will have issues.  With a good configuration, a bad driver will likely get into trouble.

Some front wheel drive cars are better than some AWD cars with snow tires alone  (Volvo 850 with Snows was just as solid and better than my CRV with crap Continental tires)

My manual Acura GSR was useless in any snow or ice without Snows.  Blizzak's made it drivable in Boston.

My manual Nissan Altima was awful with Continental tires in the rain,  (I hate Continental tires) but is quite respectable with Snows.

I haven't put Snows on the CRV, (toyo all seasons now) but the winter when they were new versus this winter is a noticeable difference.

I have a lot of respect for Subaru's.  The video comparos that they do pick competitors with basic AWD systems.  I bought the CRV instead of the Forester because other than the AWD, I got more car for my money.  Nicer fit and finish, a higher resale is likely, and an AWD system that does what I need it to do most of the time.

Regardless of what you end up with, it sure is nice to have the extra confidence of a car that does a good job in bad situations.  Whether you achieve it with AWD, tires, torque, or some other thing, it is nice to say  -- "that was a worthwhile expense."   Mounted snow tires from Tire Rack -- $650
 
2013-03-24 10:34:13 AM
Gotta love the farkers posting from the flatlands about how RWD or FWD is the way to go.  Spend some time in the mountains and get back to us.  I haven't had to chain up since we changed to AWD/4WD.
 
2013-03-24 10:42:12 AM
FTFA: However, my experience-hard-earned from wrecking more than one AWD vehicle during snow-handling tests for a tire company-is that AWD is counter-productive when the roads are slick. At the same time AWD doesn't improve your handling, it does offer an overly optimistic sense of available traction, and it provides the potential to be going so much faster when you need to stop. (Note to those from warm climes: Snowbanks are not puffy and cushiony.) The laws of physics mean a vehicle's cornering power is the job of the tires and suspension.

Sounds like this guy knows a heck of a lot more about driving in snow than subby. Four driven wheels with zero traction are just as bad as two driven wheels with zero traction. If you have SOME traction, good AWD will put the power to the correct wheel, but it seems his point is that AWD makes people overconfident and they tend to drive too fast for conditions. I'd definitely take FWD with snow tires over AWD with road tires on anything slick.
 
2013-03-24 10:47:57 AM
"All the best [AWD systems and electronic-stability control] will still get beat by a good set of snow tires," Hannemann says.

And if you put those same good snow tires on a car with AWD as opposed to non-AWD.
You get the added benefit of AWD AND SNOW TIRES = Win.

I'll never go back to non AWD for my family cars.
 
2013-03-24 10:48:23 AM

mbillips: FTFA: However, my experience-hard-earned from wrecking more than one AWD vehicle during snow-handling tests for a tire company-is that AWD is counter-productive when the roads are slick. At the same time AWD doesn't improve your handling, it does offer an overly optimistic sense of available traction, and it provides the potential to be going so much faster when you need to stop. (Note to those from warm climes: Snowbanks are not puffy and cushiony.) The laws of physics mean a vehicle's cornering power is the job of the tires and suspension.

Sounds like this guy knows a heck of a lot more about driving in snow than subby. Four driven wheels with zero traction are just as bad as two driven wheels with zero traction. If you have SOME traction, good AWD will put the power to the correct wheel, but it seems his point is that AWD makes people overconfident and they tend to drive too fast for conditions. I'd definitely take FWD with snow tires over AWD with road tires on anything slick.


You realize you can put snow tires on an AWD vehicle as well right?  And in that case, it's going to make the FWD car look silly.
 
2013-03-24 10:48:43 AM

Nefarious: Guy at work was talking about his "almost manual ford focus" WTF is almost manual?

Some sort of auto stick?  You can drive it like a manual with no clutch.  I'd love a manual but with my commute I wouldn't want it for everyday driving.


Paddle-shifter.  It's a manual transmission in the traditional sense, but there's a mechanical or mechanical/electronic transmission that works the clutch and the shift for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_transmission

They're... not terribly popular, since the vast majority of people that use a manual use it because they don't mind the extra work involved in exchange for the weight and money saved.  A paddle-shift, firstly, adds some of that weight back, and secondly is rather more expensive.  Also it means you're flipping a switch up and down as you drive, which feels kind of... silly to both automatic and manual drivers.

It's very popular on expensive kind-of-race cars for rich people that want to feel like they're going vroom vroom but can't actually drive or take the vehicle anywhere that would necessitate such extra control.  Generally you can put anyone who has one at a good 50% chance of being a complete douche.
 
2013-03-24 10:48:54 AM
Get what you need for where you live.    How's that?
 
2013-03-24 10:50:01 AM

Girion47: Kimpak: oukewldave: You'd think people know how to drive in snow around Cleveland? No, not true at all.  Works to my advantage though.  Everyone is scared of the left lane, so I have that to my self.  Even when you can still see the road, these people are driving 45-50 and scared to death.  All you need to do is leave a lot of space, don't slam on the brakes and ease off the gas around curves.

/Truly one of the worst driving areas in the country.

One thing about guys that drive in the un-plowed lane, particularly in slush, YOU SUCK.  Spraying shiat all over the windshields of everyone else so they can't see.  45-50 is acceptable speed if there's only one good lane.

Sounds like someone is driving in conditions they shouldn't be.

If you don't feel safe on the road, then get off it.


THIS.
 
2013-03-24 10:53:43 AM

mbillips: Sounds like this guy knows a heck of a lot more about driving in snow than subby. Four driven wheels with zero traction are just as bad as two driven wheels with zero traction. If you have SOME traction, good AWD will put the power to the correct wheel, but it seems his point is that AWD makes people overconfident and they tend to drive too fast for conditions. I'd definitely take FWD with snow tires over AWD with road tires on anything slick.


That point is somewhat misleading though.  Its not AWD that's the problem, its the driver.  AWD is doing what its supposed to do which is applying power to the wheels with the most traction.  Its more of a user error at that point if you keep pushing the car past what the laws of physics will allow.
 
2013-03-24 10:55:14 AM

oukewldave: You'd think people know how to drive in snow around Cleveland? No, not true at all.  Works to my advantage though.  Everyone is scared of the left lane, so I have that to my self.  Even when you can still see the road, these people are driving 45-50 and scared to death.  All you need to do is leave a lot of space, don't slam on the brakes and ease off the gas around curves.

/Truly one of the worst driving areas in the country.


Then you haven't driven in other places in the country much.  I grew up in Cleveland. Driving test at 16 in 14 inches of snow on my birthday in December.    I have driven in every state except the Dakotas and Hawaii.  I've driven in Guatemala, Canada, and Mexico.  I've lived in Texas, Florida, and now Colorado.  I have driven in blizzards, I was guided by the force in a white out sandwiched between two 18 wheelers on 80 in Nebraska with one coming up on the side, I've driven in Jungles, and beaches, and mountains, and deserts.    There are shiatty driving conditions and shiatty drivers everywhere.  It's not just Houston, or Dallas, or Denver, Antigua Guatemal, or Cleveland.  It's everywhere.
 
2013-03-24 10:57:07 AM

AWD is not a magic bullet, because it's not going that is the problem, usually, it's stopping. So you don't need 4 wheel drive, but 4 wheel brakes. And last I checked, pretty much all cars have that feature...


The problem is the drivers who think that rain is liquid sunshine and snow is crunchy sunshine, so they can drive like it is sunny on dry pavement.


/It's not the flakes falling from the sky that scare me, it's the ones with steering wheels in front of them.

 
2013-03-24 10:57:13 AM
AWD or 4wd is better than 2wd, period, end of story.

And no, a FWD with "snow tires" is NOT in any way better than an AWD with "all terrains".

Now I might see if you have plain old street tires on your SUV that a FWD with some gnarly snow tires might have an advantage, but if your AWD/4WD had any sort of even mildly aggressive tread, there's nothing a 2wd can do to beat it.

This applies for any frozen precip you can come up with.  Snow, Sleet, Ice, whatever.

What's really funny though, is the idiots who buy an AWD and think that means they can just go like the pavement is dry.
 
2013-03-24 11:00:25 AM

Jim_Callahan: It's very popular on expensive kind-of-race cars for rich people that want to feel like they're going vroom vroom but can't actually drive or take the vehicle anywhere that would necessitate such extra control.  Generally you can put anyone who has one at a good 50% chance of being a complete douche.


They're also on those expensive sports cars, if I'm not mistaken, because the paddle shifting is faster than a regular gear shift.  So you can go up through all your available gears as fast as the engine can give you power.
 
2013-03-24 11:01:35 AM

MrSteve007: Step 1: Drive 4x4, double cab Toyota Tacoma.
Step 2: opt for stability control, traction control & optional rear locking differential.
Step 3: Install studded winter tires

With that combo, my truck really is pretty much unstoppable. My biggest problem are the other guys on the road, who think it's a smart idea to go over the pass with their bald tire mustang.

/leaving for the ski resort in 26 minutes


I live on Mt. Spokane on the other side of the state.  Never have much of a problem with the roads, but getting to them can be a bit tricky.  We also have livestock so I followed similar but upgraded path.

Dodge 3500 4x4.  No studs.  Slip right through the passes to Seattle twice a month and almost never put it in 4wd.

/8000lbs of weight beats snow tires :)
 
hej
2013-03-24 11:08:33 AM
I've got RWD with a set of snow tires.  It's better than summer tires, but I doubt they're tremendously different than what I'd get out of all seasons.  I still worry about getting stuck in snow deeper than 6 inches.
 
2013-03-24 11:09:03 AM
I used to mock snow tires, but my dad gave me a set when I was in college. Smash cut to me laughing like a maniac as I mob my 10-year-old Protege through a snowbank with both a Tacoma and an F-150 stuck in it.

I use them every year now.
 
kab
2013-03-24 11:09:11 AM
Snow tires and half a clue behind the wheel actually will do just fine.

The problem is that this article is trying to imply that awd is somehow no better than 2wd in such environments, which is a pretty dumb assessment.
 
2013-03-24 11:10:17 AM
These snow tires plus AWD will get you anywhere in the snow ;)

www.madwhips.com
/hot like a subaru Trax
 
2013-03-24 11:12:23 AM

Kimpak: These snow tires plus AWD will get you anywhere in the snow ;)

[www.madwhips.com image 568x426]
/hot like a subaru Trax


Yeah, but you're gonna need one hell of a power steering system if you're gonna dodge that little squirrel in the road like in the commercials.
 
2013-03-24 11:13:37 AM

Kimpak: Jim_Callahan: It's very popular on expensive kind-of-race cars for rich people that want to feel like they're going vroom vroom but can't actually drive or take the vehicle anywhere that would necessitate such extra control.  Generally you can put anyone who has one at a good 50% chance of being a complete douche.

They're also on those expensive sports cars, if I'm not mistaken, because the paddle shifting is faster than a regular gear shift.  So you can go up through all your available gears as fast as the engine can give you power.


Yes, that's why you'd want a flappy paddle gearbox.  Most of the new cars with the auto-stick have the flappy paddles as well as the the ability to change gears on the stick.  I drove a rental with that option and it's not the same without a clutch or a proper shifter.
 
2013-03-24 11:24:57 AM
www.naklejka.robego.drl.pl
FTMFW
subscribers.wardsauto.com
 
2013-03-24 11:25:38 AM

Nefarious: Yes, that's why you'd want a flappy paddle gearbox.  Most of the new cars with the auto-stick have the flappy paddles as well as the the ability to change gears on the stick.  I drove a rental with that option and it's not the same without a clutch or a proper shifter.


I prefer a regular gear box.  I drove a new mini cooper s with the JCW upgrades.  Its a nice zippy little car but the paddles have a delay that I don't like.  Hit paddle, second later the gear shifts.  So I had to sortof shift before I actually wanted to shift.  This was while the car was in 'sport' mode.  I supposed you could get used to it, but personally if I had that car I'd just leave it in automatic mode and wish I had a regular shifter and clutch.
 
2013-03-24 11:26:01 AM

darkscout: I had someone try to convince me that snow tires were some sort of magic super glue. Hell I learned to drive on near bald tires. Slow down you're not going to change the laws of physics.


I learned how to drive in Michigan in the winter in a 69 VW bug with decent tires. Never had a real problem.

But then, about 10 years ago, I tried driving a Mustang through the winter and found that there were days when it wasn't possible. I tried chains for two years and it worked but I had to spend 40 minutes laying in snow and slush putting them on. Then I bought snow tires. Made a huge difference. I could actually get to work and back despite the snow.

But after buying an AWD Audi I swore I'd never again drive a 2wd car during the winter.
 
2013-03-24 11:26:27 AM
Taking the winter rubber off the Audi this week.  Spring is sprung ( and Quattro FTW).
 
2013-03-24 11:26:45 AM

lilbordr: [www.naklejka.robego.drl.pl image 850x127]
FTMFW
[subscribers.wardsauto.com image 320x228]


Best winter driving car I've ever owned.
 
2013-03-24 11:28:18 AM

Broktun: traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

What about snow tires and AWD?


Probably counter-productive, because it gives you a false sense of security.

I regularly drive in very piss-poor conditions, including during major snow storms.  I've got a front wheel drive car with all-season radials.  I slow my ass down, brake gently and well ahead of time, and generally drive extremely cautiously when it's nasty out.

I regularly pass people who have vehicles with 4WD/AWD and anti-lock brakes who slid off the road.   It's become a running joke with me and my ham radio buddies during the morning commute.

All the technology in the world isn't going to allow you to ignore physics.
 
2013-03-24 11:33:02 AM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Taking the winter rubber off the Audi this week.  Spring is sprung ( and Quattro FTW).


Yes.  Audi, Subaru have the only AWD worth a crap IMO.  Mitzubishi (Lancer Evo) might be a contender but I haven't driven one of those so IDK.
 
2013-03-24 11:35:11 AM

MrSteve007: Step 1: Drive 4x4, double cab Toyota Tacoma.
Step 2: opt for stability control, traction control & optional rear locking differential.
Step 3: Install studded winter tires

With that combo, my truck really is pretty much unstoppable. My biggest problem are the other guys on the road, who think it's a smart idea to go over the pass with their bald tire mustang.

/leaving for the ski resort in 26 minutes


Step 4. Add weight in the bed above the rear axle.  (I just carry a snow shovel and fill the bed with snow).
 
2013-03-24 11:38:06 AM
Best comparison video period...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_fXvg98w4
 
2013-03-24 11:44:36 AM

mbillips: Sounds like this guy knows a heck of a lot more about driving in snow than subby. Four driven wheels with zero traction are just as bad as two driven wheels with zero traction. If you have SOME traction, good AWD will put the power to the correct wheel, but it seems his point is that AWD makes people overconfident and they tend to drive too fast for conditions. I'd definitely take FWD with snow tires over AWD with road tires on anything slick.


No, the author is being dumb (or deliberately obtuse.)

I grew up and learned to drive in Maine.  Yes all cars have brakes on all four corners, but in rural and non-flat areas the issue is not always a matter of stopping and manuvering.  Sometimes the issue that people have is related to getting moving in the first place.

Sometimes winter driving is a question of how you are going to get up that completely un-plowed road that has steep hills and 5 inches of accumulation on it.  The author is right in that most individuals winter driving issues can be solved with snow tires, but there is a reason that Subarus are so popular in some parts of the country.  Well, there are many reasons, but some of them are actually related to winter driving performance.
 
2013-03-24 11:46:06 AM

dittybopper: Broktun: traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

What about snow tires and AWD?

Probably counter-productive, because it gives you a false sense of security.

I regularly drive in very piss-poor conditions, including during major snow storms.  I've got a front wheel drive car with all-season radials.  I slow my ass down, brake gently and well ahead of time, and generally drive extremely cautiously when it's nasty out.

I regularly pass people who have vehicles with 4WD/AWD and anti-lock brakes who slid off the road.   It's become a running joke with me and my ham radio buddies during the morning commute.

All the technology in the world isn't going to allow you to ignore physics.


And the people without AWD trying to make it sound inferior just get more and more ridiculous.

Good for you, you're driving your car as conditions demand,  Now you just have to admit that AWD+Snow tire can handle worse conditions than your car can and you'll sound rational.
 
2013-03-24 11:46:13 AM
I grew up in a dirt road in the middle of nowhere. There was a stretch about 1/2 mile from our house where things got bad. At least once every couple of years we wouldn't be able to drive home even with 4WD and had to walk that last bit. That never happened after my parents got their first AWD car. I don't know about a more urban environment, but where we were driving the difference was pronounced.

When I was in high school I was caught in a blizzard after getting forced off the road by someone in an old Buick not suited to the conditions who was driving down the center. The snow had drifted into the ditch and the car was resting on that with neither right tire touching the ground. I still made it home and I really doubt I could have without AWD. There were lots of places that I was able to go when I borrowed my mom's Outback that my friend's couldn't. You want false sense of security? Give a teenager a Jeep Wrangler or a 4WD pickup. I'd be following my friends somewhere and watching them slide all over the road, even with good tires, while I had no trouble.

We did get our AWD Outback stuck once. We stopped in a valley between two hills and apparently some water had collected there, because all four wheels were on ice. Some kitty litter for traction fixed that though.
 
2013-03-24 11:49:46 AM
Snow tires over AWD is an obvious choice.

Snow tires gives improved control and braking.

AWD gives improved starting and accelerating ability.

Think about most accidents in the snow - do they happen because someone couldn't get moving fast enough, or do they happen because someone lost control/couldn't stop fast enough?
 
2013-03-24 11:56:05 AM

Kimpak: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Taking the winter rubber off the Audi this week.  Spring is sprung ( and Quattro FTW).

Yes.  Audi, Subaru have the only AWD worth a crap IMO.  Mitzubishi (Lancer Evo) might be a contender but I haven't driven one of those so IDK.


What?  No love for Syncro/4motion?  It's as mechanically advanced as Subaru, just packaged better so it fits in more chassis.

/miss my Syncro Corrado
 
2013-03-24 11:57:04 AM

nickerj1: MrSteve007: Step 1: Drive 4x4, double cab Toyota Tacoma.
Step 2: opt for stability control, traction control & optional rear locking differential.
Step 3: Install studded winter tires

With that combo, my truck really is pretty much unstoppable. My biggest problem are the other guys on the road, who think it's a smart idea to go over the pass with their bald tire mustang.

/leaving for the ski resort in 26 minutes

Step 4. Add weight in the bed above the rear axle.  (I just carry a snow shovel and fill the bed with snow).


I just don't garage mine, it seems to fill itself with snow just fine  :)
 
2013-03-24 11:57:14 AM
Had my first snow driving experience a couple weeks ago. I was speeding up to Julian (San Diego County) on my way to Anza-Borrego desert when about four inches of snow appeared on the sides of the roads. Road wasn't frozen, so I kept going, and then while going into a downhill patch, I hit a patch of black ice. No snow tires, no AWD. First fishtail I corrected, second one I didn't. Right into a goddamn snow bank.

Just from my limited experience digging my car out of the hillside, AWD won't help you if snow/sand(problem in Anza-Borrego) gets into tire treads. It's that lost of traction that will make you stop people from Michigan to help you tow your car out of the hillside. AWD will only really help you out in situations where three of your wheels are just spinning in the dirt/sand/air and you have one wheel that can provide any meaningful traction. They're mandatory if you're going over rough rock areas with high clearance vehicles like Jeeps that have some underarmor, but beyond that, in city driving, the only real thing that help you not slide across the road like you're stealing home base is studs/chains, which helps you get some traction.

/at least, from my limited review
//Cement-smoothers make great shovels.
 
2013-03-24 11:58:52 AM

The WindowLicker: there is a reason that Subarus are so popular in some parts of the country


Yup, high concentrations of lesbians

/this many comments in and I had to say it?
//fark, you're slipping
 
2013-03-24 11:58:59 AM

rohar: What?  No love for Syncro/4motion?


Completely forgot about that!  I haven't driven one of those either, but I do hear good things.
 
2013-03-24 12:03:58 PM

rohar: Kimpak: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Taking the winter rubber off the Audi this week.  Spring is sprung ( and Quattro FTW).

Yes.  Audi, Subaru have the only AWD worth a crap IMO.  Mitzubishi (Lancer Evo) might be a contender but I haven't driven one of those so IDK.

What?  No love for Syncro/4motion?  It's as mechanically advanced as Subaru, just packaged better so it fits in more chassis.

/miss my Syncro Corrado


I drive a 4Mo, and I couldn't help but laugh at everyone during our latest bouts with snow because of how freaking awesome it was in comparison to my old FWD.
 
2013-03-24 12:06:15 PM

Kimpak: rohar: What?  No love for Syncro/4motion?

Completely forgot about that!  I haven't driven one of those either, but I do hear good things.


The Achilles heal for the system is the viscous coupling like the ScoobieDoos.  It does have the advantage of being about 5% more efficient than the Audi/Scoobie solutions.

The early TTs ran it and Audi called it Quattro, but it wasn't.

That and they don't pop up very often in the states.  Friggin Canadians get all the fun toys...
 
2013-03-24 12:14:48 PM
We used to go every year to the Outer Banks. Down the banks, the way you get to the beach is to drive your car out onto the beach. You want to see AWD in action? We used to take my mom's little subaru outback (think sedan) out onto the beach with the monster trucks. The only trouble we had with it was when it got high-centered due to said monster trucks making huge wheel tracks.
The faces of the guys who felt they had to have a giant truck as we drove past was the best part.
 
2013-03-24 12:16:19 PM

Katie98_KT: We used to go every year to the Outer Banks. Down the banks, the way you get to the beach is to drive your car out onto the beach. You want to see AWD in action? We used to take my mom's little subaru outback (think sedan) out onto the beach with the monster trucks. The only trouble we had with it was when it got high-centered due to said monster trucks making huge wheel tracks.
The faces of the guys who felt they had to have a giant truck as we drove past was the best part.


I should specify- subaru impreza outback, not the big station wagon ones.
 
2013-03-24 12:20:05 PM
My FWD Volkswagen with real snow tires does just as well, if not better than my wife's Subaru with all-season tires.
 
2013-03-24 12:20:45 PM

Girion47: And the people without AWD trying to make it sound inferior just get more and more ridiculous.


It's not inferior.  It does convey an actual advantage in starting moving, and in things like going up very slippery hills, and you are less likely, all other things being equal, to get stuck.

The problem is that people being people, they tend to drive a bit faster because they feel they have more control, and *THAT* is when they get into trouble.  They don't drive for the conditions, not understanding that while they have a bit more traction and are able to go forward easier, the amount of lateral and braking traction they have is exactly the same as with a 2WD car.

The general theory behind that kind of behavior is called risk compensation or risk homeostasis.
 
2013-03-24 12:22:37 PM

To Wish Impossible Things: Think about most accidents in the snow - do they happen because someone couldn't get moving fast enough, or do they happen because someone lost control/couldn't stop fast enough?


They happen because people weren't driving slow enough.
 
2013-03-24 12:24:07 PM

dittybopper: Girion47: And the people without AWD trying to make it sound inferior just get more and more ridiculous.

It's not inferior.  It does convey an actual advantage in starting moving, and in things like going up very slippery hills, and you are less likely, all other things being equal, to get stuck.

The problem is that people being people, they tend to drive a bit faster because they feel they have more control, and *THAT* is when they get into trouble.  They don't drive for the conditions, not understanding that while they have a bit more traction and are able to go forward easier, the amount of lateral and braking traction they have is exactly the same as with a 2WD car.

The general theory behind that kind of behavior is called risk compensation or risk homeostasis.


This isn't a discussion of drivers though, we're specifically talking about the AWD system.  driver-confidence doesn't belong in this conversation.
 
2013-03-24 12:25:56 PM

louiedog: We did get our AWD Outback stuck once. We stopped in a valley between two hills and apparently some water had collected there, because all four wheels were on ice. Some kitty litter for traction fixed that though.


I don't like kitty litter for that kind of use:  If the surface is at all wet, most clay-based litters get just as slick as the ice/snow.  I keep actual rock salt for that.
 
2013-03-24 12:26:30 PM
Those tools in the ditches make the rest of the 4wd people look bad. I drive a grand cherokee. In the ice and snow I drive just like i did in previous fwd and rwd vehicles. Easy on the brake, easy on the gas, slow, get decent tires. Ta da!
 
2013-03-24 12:29:51 PM

Girion47: dittybopper: Girion47: And the people without AWD trying to make it sound inferior just get more and more ridiculous.

It's not inferior.  It does convey an actual advantage in starting moving, and in things like going up very slippery hills, and you are less likely, all other things being equal, to get stuck.

The problem is that people being people, they tend to drive a bit faster because they feel they have more control, and *THAT* is when they get into trouble.  They don't drive for the conditions, not understanding that while they have a bit more traction and are able to go forward easier, the amount of lateral and braking traction they have is exactly the same as with a 2WD car.

The general theory behind that kind of behavior is called risk compensation or risk homeostasis.

This isn't a discussion of drivers though, we're specifically talking about the AWD system.  driver-confidence doesn't belong in this conversation.


Sure it does, because it's part of the entire system.

A technical discussion of particular systems that ignores their actual use is just geeks wanking to this or that technology.  And I've done enough geek wankery to be able to say this.
 
2013-03-24 12:31:36 PM

dittybopper: Girion47: dittybopper: Girion47: And the people without AWD trying to make it sound inferior just get more and more ridiculous.

It's not inferior.  It does convey an actual advantage in starting moving, and in things like going up very slippery hills, and you are less likely, all other things being equal, to get stuck.

The problem is that people being people, they tend to drive a bit faster because they feel they have more control, and *THAT* is when they get into trouble.  They don't drive for the conditions, not understanding that while they have a bit more traction and are able to go forward easier, the amount of lateral and braking traction they have is exactly the same as with a 2WD car.

The general theory behind that kind of behavior is called risk compensation or risk homeostasis.

This isn't a discussion of drivers though, we're specifically talking about the AWD system.  driver-confidence doesn't belong in this conversation.

Sure it does, because it's part of the entire system.

A technical discussion of particular systems that ignores their actual use is just geeks wanking to this or that technology.  And I've done enough geek wankery to be able to say this.


It is still ignoring the fact that the driver is highly variable and someone with AWD, Snow-tires, and a proper respect for the conditions will trump everything else.
 
2013-03-24 12:33:11 PM

worthlessjuan: 3. If it helped in handling, all race cars would be AWD (apologies to Audi Quatro).


Under power, FWD and AWD will understeer, RWD will oversteer.  A driver who can use oversteer can use RWD to his/her advantage.  I myself can do a pretty good opposite lock power slide.  But most drivers cannot manage the throttle and steering in an oversteer situation and no driver can managed it without training or at least a lot of practice.

For almost all drivers, understeer is far better than oversteer.  With understeer, they go off the road plowing forward into the tree.  With oversteer they end up rolling or sliding sideways into the tree.
 
2013-03-24 12:37:04 PM
Grew up driving in the mountains, had a rear wheel drive with great snows, lived on a steep hill.  Got pulled up that hill by a 4x4 on a regular basis.

Bought a VW Rabbit, put great snows on the thing, never got stuck again.

Today?  Three of our four cars are AWD - my ski car is a Subaru Outback with Blizzaks, and I have a Toyota Tacoma 4x4, and a RX400h with all seasons.  We never get stuck, live on a dirt road.

/We get around
 
2013-03-24 12:42:21 PM
AWD or 4WD SUVs on desert or mud tires are useless on snowy roads. 

Broktun: traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.

What about snow tires and AWD?


That is the winning combination.

/R320 4Matic + 4 snow tires = snowmobile.

Yaxe: Had my first snow driving experience a couple weeks ago. I was speeding up to Julian (San Diego County) on my way to Anza-Borrego desert when about four inches of snow appeared on the sides of the roads. Road wasn't frozen, so I kept going, and then while going into a downhill patch, I hit a patch of black ice. No snow tires, no AWD. First fishtail I corrected, second one I didn't. Right into a goddamn snow bank.

Just from my limited experience digging my car out of the hillside, AWD won't help you if snow/sand(problem in Anza-Borrego) gets into tire treads. It's that lost of traction that will make you stop people from Michigan to help you tow your car out of the hillside. AWD will only really help you out in situations where three of your wheels are just spinning in the dirt/sand/air and you have one wheel that can provide any meaningful traction. They're mandatory if you're going over rough rock areas with high clearance vehicles like Jeeps that have some underarmor, but beyond that, in city driving, the only real thing that help you not slide across the road like you're stealing home base is studs/chains, which helps you get some traction.

/at least, from my limited review
//Cement-smoothers make great shovels.


Actually, snow in the threads is exactly what works. Snow sticks to snow, that is the reason you can make a snowball. Winter tires are designed to pack with snow. One of the reasons mud and desert tires don't work in snow is because they have self-cleaning threads.  Another reason regular tires don't work on wintry roads, even when no snow is present, is that they harden and lose traction in cold winter temperatures. Winter tires are made with much softer compounds which remain pliable even in very cold weather.

/Drive in snow 4-5 months of the year.
 
2013-03-24 12:45:09 PM
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-03-24 12:50:42 PM
demotivationalblog.comrallye-info.comresource.mmgn.com
 
2013-03-24 12:53:50 PM

neongoats: Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.

Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.


Go to an actual tire store, look for national brands (I prefer Goodyear, Cooper, Bridgestone, or Hankook).  Look for wider groves in the tread, and say "M+S" on the side (Mud and Snow).  If you're not going into the mountains during winter, all-season M+S should do; if the tread is too aggressive, it hurts your fuel economy.  Also, it's best to have a matched set of 4 that fits the car.  There should be a sticker in the driver's door jab that tells you the correct size.

/looks like Washington and Oregon allow studded tires from Nov 1 to March 31.
 
2013-03-24 12:56:47 PM
AWD/4WD is clearly superior to RWD/FWD in snow and ice.  You're going up a hill and one of your tires hits a patch of ice or refrozen slush.  Now if you have some form of two wheel drive, suddenly 50% of your drive train's traction is gone and your applying power unevenly across your vehicle, although traction control will try to help you out here.  Drive's side tire has traction, passenger side doesn't, the un-powered rear tires are just along for the ride.  With 4WD you're better off in that three of the tires still have power, one just may now be helplessly spinning depending on your setup, sometimes unpleasant things may occur when that wheel gets its traction back, but a driver familiar with the vehicle normally doesn't have a problem.  With AWD the car's computer will automatically readjust your power output to compensate for that wheel that lost traction and you'll go merrily on your way.

Same applies if you manage to aquaplane a tire.

FWD cars often to hit a patch of ice with one tire, the drive responds by hitting the gas, and they torque steer themselves right into the ditch.  Of course many AWD cars end up stuck in the snow due to the fact that ground clearance becomes an issue.

All that said, some individual cars may perform better than others.  For example my Grand Prix GXP is amazing in the Michigan winter, despite being FWD and having wider tires in the front because sitting right about my drive train is a giant 5.4 Liter V8.  It just slams those drive wheels down onto the pavement and gets its traction.  However the one time I did hit an icy patch and lost traction the front, I was done.  It definitely out performs some of the lighter AWD cars since having AWD isn't all that great if you can't actually get any of the wheels down onto a surface that provides traction.  I've seen some of the AWD coupes flailing around while larger 2 wheel drive sedans just chugged on by.  Of course the Grand Prix sucks compared to the AWD CTS Sedan which has over 2 tons of weight and AWD.

/just remember if you add weight, add it forward of your rear axle
//otherwise the rear axle becomes a pivot point and you lift your nose while your tail goes down
/which means less gripe your for tires that steer (and provide power if you're FWD)
 
2013-03-24 01:06:31 PM
If the goal is traction on bad terrain 4WD is best, even better with lockable axles. AWD varies so much by manufacturer and specific technology it's a spectrum between nearly as good as 4WD and worse than FWD/RWD. If you are driving more than 50MPH you should rethink the need for 4WD or AWD, if the roads are bad enough you need that much traction they are bad enough you shouldn't be doing that speed. As other's have noted 4WD/AWD helps you go it doesn't help you stop.

/I live in the Northeast in snow country. The Jeep in my driveway is 4WD (or RWD or FWD), both axles have lockers. That means with the pull of a level and flip of a switch each all the tires rotate at the same speed, it could drag itself up a hill with 1 tire on the ground and the other 3 tires on dollies. In the winter she wears skinny all terrains (TA KO) for the road, wider mud tires in the summer.
 
2013-03-24 01:14:38 PM

neongoats: Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.


One thing to keep in mind, are you driving in snow or are you driving in wet conditions created by the DOT dumping six million pounds of ice on the road?  That will determine whether you want to buy a true snow tire designed to grip into the snow or something optimized to handle water and avoid aquaplanning in the snow melt.  I tend to run Michelin Pilot A/S tires as their performance in wet conditions is excellent and I'm mostly on the interstate which is plowed, salted, and wet, but they're not so great in the snow.  I have a 4x4 tucked away in a corner of the garage for the days when I need to chug down a road the DOT has yet to plow.  When you move I'd ask around about the roads you'll be driving on and consider which you want.
 
2013-03-24 01:14:40 PM

ha-ha-guy: With AWD the car's computer will automatically readjust your power output


If your AWD needs a computer to adjust torque bias, you bought a cheep ass AWD.

The rest of your post is pretty filled with WAS.  The best defense you have against road conditions is and will always be training.  Come out to the track on a rainy morning, we'll gladly give you more insurance against accidents/getting stuck than you can ever buy.
 
2013-03-24 01:15:04 PM

RaistlinsLegacy: ChubbyTiger: Kimpak: ChubbyTiger: Always fun to see the Jeep drivers in a ditch because they think a Wrangle will corner well in the snow.

Yeah, but if I ever got in a ditch when I had my Wrangler...I just drove right back out of it.

If you know what you're doing, sure. Most Jeep/SUV drivers have no idea. Of course, that's why they were in the ditch to begin with.

Hey I never had a problem in bad weather in my wranglers. Sunny days get me in trouble :) 4wd, short wheel base, mud tires and manual transmission equals win.

Dunno how people drive automatics.... Downshifting is so nice in slick conditions


Just because there's no clutch doesn't mean that automatics don't have shifters. I downshift all the time in my automatic Corolla, especially driving in the mountains here in Colorado.
 
2013-03-24 01:22:35 PM

Road Rash: http://www.nokiantyres.com/winter-driving-school  the tires I put all the way around on my RWD Volvo 240 made a huge difference.


I'm putting the Nokian wrg2's on my outback next winter. I'm running GY Tripletreds atm and while they're sold as all seasons they really only function as wet/dry, though they do that well. Colorado spring driving =slushplaning with the damn things...
 
2013-03-24 01:24:46 PM

rohar: ha-ha-guy: With AWD the car's computer will automatically readjust your power output

If your AWD needs a computer to adjust torque bias, you bought a cheep ass AWD.

The rest of your post is pretty filled with WAS.  The best defense you have against road conditions is and will always be training.  Come out to the track on a rainy morning, we'll gladly give you more insurance against accidents/getting stuck than you can ever buy.


Thanks, but I have access to the test track my company owns.

/computers matter on Super Handling and similar modern  systems and they provide input to the AWD system, same with ESP programs
//something has to tell the AWD "Oh shiat it is snowing, cut out the 30/70 power balance and adjust power for shiatty conditions mode"
/a purely mechanical AWD system is now the shiatty system
 
2013-03-24 01:29:01 PM

ha-ha-guy: rohar: ha-ha-guy: With AWD the car's computer will automatically readjust your power output

If your AWD needs a computer to adjust torque bias, you bought a cheep ass AWD.

The rest of your post is pretty filled with WAS.  The best defense you have against road conditions is and will always be training.  Come out to the track on a rainy morning, we'll gladly give you more insurance against accidents/getting stuck than you can ever buy.

Thanks, but I have access to the test track my company owns.

/computers matter on Super Handling and similar modern  systems and they provide input to the AWD system, same with ESP programs
//something has to tell the AWD "Oh shiat it is snowing, cut out the 30/70 power balance and adjust power for shiatty conditions mode"
/a purely mechanical AWD system is now the shiatty system


Funny, mechanical systems do what you just stated only computer based systems can.  Purely mechanical also means infinitely variable.  This isn't possible with electronic systems.

As someone who works for a company with a test track, I'd think you'd know this...
 
2013-03-24 01:40:39 PM

SnarfVader: neongoats: Shang-High: Skinny (as in 165-skinny) studded (as in full studs not one row) snow tires (Hakkas if possible).  I have never been stuck with FWD and snows, not ever (25 years of New England driving, including in the middle of massive blizzards).  Hitting a sheet of ice with studded snows means you CAN still stop, if you haven't driven with them I highly recommend you try next winter and feel the difference.

Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.

What side of the Cascades will you be on? The west-siders really only need good rain tires and studs lose traction in purely wet weather. I would only recommend studded tires on the east side or if you routinely go up the mountains to ski.


Blizzak studless tires.  We have 6 months of winter up here and I run the Blizzaks year round on a FWD Accord.  Works fine.
 
2013-03-24 01:47:06 PM

Girion47: [demotivationalblog.com image 800x450][rallye-info.com image 740x493][resource.mmgn.com image 750x469]


Are you trying to support the idea of better traction of Subaru with two pictures of a car that has broken traction?  That car is staying out of the ditch because the driver knows what they are doing, but that car has broke traction and is sliding sideways.  I know, I have done it on purpose, but my Expedition won't do it unless I leave it in RWD.  Last snow storm I just put it on 4AWD (it also has a 4WD selection) and drove 50 mph without any issue.  I had to be to work before the plow trucks even got to the roads I needed, but my ABS didn't even kick in nor did I slide once.  Now my Ranger is RWD and I drive it like the Subaru in the pic all the time, I love it.  However, I don't dare to take the Ranger on expressways during bad days.
 
2013-03-24 01:51:11 PM

worthlessjuan: 3. If it helped in handling, all race cars would be AWD (apologies to Audi Quatro).


All rally cars are AWD and have been ever since the Audi Quattro hit the rally scene.  Before that people thought much like you did, that racing and AWD were mutually exclusive.  Then the Quattro surprised the crap out of everyone.

AWD does help in handling.  The key point is that in flat racing it doesn't help to a noticeable degree, at least enough to offset the weight and torque cost of putting a transfer case in there.  For something with variable terrain like rally, AWD is king.

Much like racing, AWD doesn't help in everyday driving.  What it helps in are situations where the terrain is variable, where individual wheels are apt to lose grip for a minute, and similar.  If you're driving on a solid sheet of ice you aren't going to corner much better than a 2WD vehicle (not enough to be statistically significant or keep you out of a ditch anyway).  If you're driving on areas where it's snow, then ice, then some snow, partially plowed here or there, little puddle over there, etc. etc., i.e. the real world, then AWD/4WD is going to get you past all those little spots where you temporarily lose traction to part of the vehicle without you even noticing.

I mean really, think about this logically for a second.  Say you're turning and your left front wheel loses traction because you hit a patch of black ice or something.  In a 2WD vehicle you have just lost half of your forward force minimum (and likely more because all that torque is now probably going to the free wheel).  In a AWD/FWD vehicle you've lost a quarter. Which one is going to be more stable here?
 
2013-03-24 01:56:56 PM

lack of warmth: Girion47: [demotivationalblog.com image 800x450][rallye-info.com image 740x493][resource.mmgn.com image 750x469]

Are you trying to support the idea of better traction of Subaru with two pictures of a car that has broken traction?  That car is staying out of the ditch because the driver knows what they are doing, but that car has broke traction and is sliding sideways.  I know, I have done it on purpose, but my Expedition won't do it unless I leave it in RWD.  Last snow storm I just put it on 4AWD (it also has a 4WD selection) and drove 50 mph without any issue.  I had to be to work before the plow trucks even got to the roads I needed, but my ABS didn't even kick in nor did I slide once.  Now my Ranger is RWD and I drive it like the Subaru in the pic all the time, I love it.  However, I don't dare to take the Ranger on expressways during bad days.


Right, and what's going to regain traction faster?  a 2WD or AWD vehicle?
 
2013-03-24 02:05:08 PM
I live in an area that averages about 150" of snow a year, in the mountains. I normally drive a Miata, currently sitting on a set of Pirelli winter/sports snow tires. The only thing that has ever gotten it stuck is high siding. Specifically, a four inch block of ice that formed at the bottom of a sloped parking lot with no flat run-up area. If you drive carefully, a good set of studless snow tires will get you through anything you're likely to encounter with RWD or FWD. Getting up steep hills is a matter of maintaining momentum--it is tough getting going if you stop on a slippery slope.

That being said, snow tires with AWD or a lockable 4WD setup are almost unstoppable. I keep an SUV with Blizzaks around because there are days where I can't even get the Miata out of my community, though the public roads are passable. The Borrego with Blizzaks will plow its way up over and through anything it has ever seen. It's a lot of fun on the unmaintained back roads around here.

Even with snow tires and four driven wheels, though, you still need to be very conscious of the fact that you will need to turn and stop all that mass once you get it going.
 
2013-03-24 02:17:20 PM

Girion47: lack of warmth: Girion47: [demotivationalblog.com image 800x450][rallye-info.com image 740x493][resource.mmgn.com image 750x469]

Are you trying to support the idea of better traction of Subaru with two pictures of a car that has broken traction?  That car is staying out of the ditch because the driver knows what they are doing, but that car has broke traction and is sliding sideways.  I know, I have done it on purpose, but my Expedition won't do it unless I leave it in RWD.  Last snow storm I just put it on 4AWD (it also has a 4WD selection) and drove 50 mph without any issue.  I had to be to work before the plow trucks even got to the roads I needed, but my ABS didn't even kick in nor did I slide once.  Now my Ranger is RWD and I drive it like the Subaru in the pic all the time, I love it.  However, I don't dare to take the Ranger on expressways during bad days.

Right, and what's going to regain traction faster?  a 2WD or AWD vehicle?


I am not sure, since I have been unable to break traction in my AWD.  We haven't had any slick ice since I got it, but I have been able to play alot with sticky ice.  FWD does regain traction faster than RWD, though.

/No one wins on slick ice
 
2013-03-24 02:19:24 PM

rohar: Funny, mechanical systems do what you just stated only computer based systems can.  Purely mechanical also means infinitely variable.  This isn't possible with electronic systems.

As someone who works for a company with a test track, I'd think you'd know this...


Please post the diagram for the mechanical system where the car can detect icy conditions, adjust its suspension to move weight around (if considered useful), tell the ECU to act differently with torque production on a direct injected engine, and also inform the ABS and Traction Control to act differently than they do in "sport mode", favor 50/50 power balance over a sport configuration, etc.

I'm sure it can be done, I'm also sure a microprocessor can do it while adding a lot less weight to the car.  Modern cars should not and do not operate with each system in isolation.  They all talk on the car's computer network and make decisions based on input from various sensors, etc.

/if you want an example go look at Audi's Quattro system and notice the mechanical limitations of the Torsen and why Audi added in a computerized system that limits wheel spin using the braking system
//so suddenly the car's computer is using the ABS system to detect while spin caused by a AWD limitation and then using the brakes to prevent wheel spin
//oh look computers make everything better when they link multiple systems on the car
/in less than decade we'll be using the pedestrian / night vision cameras on the car to sense possible icy patches and the car will determine it is about to hit an icy patch and preemptive take action as opposed to waiting for some mechanical system to react, mechanical systems cannot be proactive anywhere near the level the mechanical ones can be
 
2013-03-24 02:19:54 PM
I drive a rear wheel drive pickup with balding all season tires.  Only a problem 2-3 days out the year.

/lives in NC
 
2013-03-24 02:20:41 PM

neongoats: Do you have a wet weather suggestion for a ford ranger? =p Going to be in the pacific northwest in the fall, know next to nothing about tires, want to get awesome tires for the first time in my life.


"pacific northwest" isn't sufficient information here.  Most people think Washington and Oregon get a lot of rain and all you have to deal with is wet weather.  But the truth is that Seattle and Portland get a lot of rain in the winter... the rest of the PNW get real winters.  "Western Washington" and "Western Oregon" are actaully less than a third of each state.

/live in Seattle
/from Eastern WA
//laugh at the people here when we get a half inch of snow, but keep my distance from them
 
2013-03-24 02:28:43 PM
In other news, I'm getting 1-3 inches of snow tonight/tomorrow, I'll probably go play around in it with my AWD car that has snow tires.
 
2013-03-24 02:39:45 PM

ha-ha-guy: rohar: Funny, mechanical systems do what you just stated only computer based systems can.  Purely mechanical also means infinitely variable.  This isn't possible with electronic systems.

As someone who works for a company with a test track, I'd think you'd know this...

Please post the diagram for the mechanical system where the car can detect icy conditions, adjust its suspension to move weight around (if considered useful), tell the ECU to act differently with torque production on a direct injected engine, and also inform the ABS and Traction Control to act differently than they do in "sport mode", favor 50/50 power balance over a sport configuration, etc.

I'm sure it can be done, I'm also sure a microprocessor can do it while adding a lot less weight to the car.  Modern cars should not and do not operate with each system in isolation.  They all talk on the car's computer network and make decisions based on input from various sensors, etc.

/if you want an example go look at Audi's Quattro system and notice the mechanical limitations of the Torsen and why Audi added in a computerized system that limits wheel spin using the braking system
//so suddenly the car's computer is using the ABS system to detect while spin caused by a AWD limitation and then using the brakes to prevent wheel spin
//oh look computers make everything better when they link multiple systems on the car
/in less than decade we'll be using the pedestrian / night vision cameras on the car to sense possible icy patches and the car will determine it is about to hit an icy patch and preemptive take action as opposed to waiting for some mechanical system to react, mechanical systems cannot be proactive anywhere near the level the mechanical ones can be


Your premise falls apart right there doesn't it?  Getrag has the ATB devices they have and refuse to innovate.  About 20% is their minimum bias.  You seem to be stuck in the same place.

Why would it matter if it's snowing, raining or the zombie apocalypse?  Either the wheel has grip or it doesn't.  Kinda straight forward isn't it?
 
2013-03-24 02:49:00 PM
Csb - I drive a plow truck. (Eip if you want a pic of what I drive) awd fwd rwd whatever. Hiw about you stay tge fark off the road and let us do our job?
That coffee that you need, or the 2 litres of milk is unimportant.
Unless someone is dying stay off the farking road. All you wanna be Dale Earnharts just makes our job that much slower and harder.

Tl; dr stay off the road and let highways do their job.
 
2013-03-24 02:54:37 PM

rohar: Why would it matter if it's snowing, raining or the zombie apocalypse?  Either the wheel has grip or it doesn't.  Kinda straight forward isn't it?


So let me get this straight, your argument is one a wheel loses traction, it stops mattering?  Never mind whether the spinning wheel itself is going to apply some sort of force to the vehicle due to the fact you have a spinning object you are trying to bring to a stop or a non spinning object, still carrying weight from the vehicle that has no grip and is just sliding along the ice/aquaplaning/etc...

How the entire car reacts to one or more wheels saying "I just became useless as far as traction and steering" goes matters to computer systems on the car and how they will react.  Hence while modern cars have microprocessors that register that fact and prompt various other systems to react.

Have a nice day.
 
2013-03-24 02:58:38 PM

Edgewood Dirk: Csb - I drive a plow truck. (Eip if you want a pic of what I drive) awd fwd rwd whatever. Hiw about you stay tge fark off the road and let us do our job?
That coffee that you need, or the 2 litres of milk is unimportant.
Unless someone is dying stay off the farking road. All you wanna be Dale Earnharts just makes our job that much slower and harder.

Tl; dr stay off the road and let highways do their job.


First of all, Thank you for what you do!  (seriously.)

However; some of us do need to go to work and staying at home is not an option if we would like to keep our jobs.  As much as I wanted to stay home this morning because it was snowing...the internets must be kept in working order and that's my job.
 
2013-03-24 03:01:29 PM

ha-ha-guy: rohar: Why would it matter if it's snowing, raining or the zombie apocalypse?  Either the wheel has grip or it doesn't.  Kinda straight forward isn't it?

So let me get this straight, your argument is one a wheel loses traction, it stops mattering?  Never mind whether the spinning wheel itself is going to apply some sort of force to the vehicle due to the fact you have a spinning object you are trying to bring to a stop or a non spinning object, still carrying weight from the vehicle that has no grip and is just sliding along the ice/aquaplaning/etc...

How the entire car reacts to one or more wheels saying "I just became useless as far as traction and steering" goes matters to computer systems on the car and how they will react.  Hence while modern cars have microprocessors that register that fact and prompt various other systems to react.

Have a nice day.


No, not at all.  What I'm saying is that the reason for the wheel spin is immaterial.  Snow, mud, coolant leak that left a puddle of slippery antifreeze on the tarmac.  It's all immaterial.   What's important is that traction is lost at an impossible to preconceive level.

In these situations, Audi/ZF/Getrag systems do very well, however they have their limits as you pointed out.  About 80/20 is their limit on torque bias.  They do, however, react immediately and to the appropriate level below their limit.  This is the value in mechanical systems.  Haldex does much the same with their systems excluding those with a viscous center diff.  The difference is in the diffs.  Haldex ATBs max out at about 3/97 torque bias and react, immediately, to conditions.

Can you show me an electronic system that can do that?
 
2013-03-24 03:10:03 PM
Where I live the AWD makes a difference, it is very hilly here and gets cold and icy. Even with just wet conditions it makes a difference in getting you going...  it is CORRECT that it doesn't help stopping.

One bummer of the AWD is that it sucks down some of the Miles Per Gallon; so, I am burning more fuel and getting worse mileage.  But I don't get stuck.  My car (not quite an SUV) generally works well for me. I will get another one next time. I do use all-year Mud/Snow rated tires. They seem to be satisfactory for my driving all year around. And for where I (like to) drive - some roads are AWD/4WD mandatory.

Yeah, I laugh at those shiny clean AWD/4WD vehicals who's owners would be shocked and afeared to drive it on some Forest Service road and get it dirty.

/A good solid coat of mud may actually help protect the paint - adds a layer of protection on top of the wax.
 
2013-03-24 03:13:50 PM
Oh yeah, It would be nice if my AWD vehicle had an actual 4-LOW mode.
 
2013-03-24 03:29:41 PM
4wd / AWD is all about getting going and keeping going, modern snow tires are about traction ..

Car and Driver did some tests on this with a couple 2wd and 4wd Benzs and Audis ..

Should be obvious tires make a bigger difference than 4wd/AWD when trying to stop ..

from C&D (full article) ..

"Braking: The picture changes when you stand on the whoa pedal, because with four-wheel anti-lock braking, all four contact patches are working regardless of the driveline setup. Better-biting tires generate more stopping force, and the weight of a 4wd system simply adds to the momentum that has to be stopped. So it comes as no surprise that 4wd tended to lengthen stops from 50 mph (by as much as 12 feet on the Audi and 18 feet on the Benz relative to the stock 2wd setup). Fitting winter tires shaved stopping distances substantially (by 44 to 64 feet in the case of the A6s, and by 22 to 37 feet on the E320s). Winter tires win this one handily. "
 
2013-03-24 03:42:58 PM
AWD is the shiat. Especially if you have a car with multi mode power shifting AWD, and adjustable steering. Lexus, infinity (Nissan on a few too, not just the GTR), bmw, and a bunch of others have this. It sure does help corner. It's insane how much better with the right tires a good awd system is. It helps to not be a shiatty driver, but it does make a shiatty driver better too... unless of course you have a 600hp car and are a dumbass.

/I like to turn of traction control for a little skid too, depending on the location
 
2013-03-24 03:47:30 PM

Jim_Callahan: AWD is better for traction, single-axle drives are better for efficiency, completely fixed differential (4WD) is better for power.


I talked to a couple of BLM rangers once about trucks.  They loved, just loved 2WD F150 pickup trucks.  Great great truck. goes anywhere you'd want to go, and unlike the 4WD units won't go where you do not want to go.  Plus you can stick a dead deer in the back.

They hated the Hummers homeland security forced on them.  First off, you cannot stick a dead deer in the back of a Hummer. The hummers wheel base is too wide for narrow dirt roads, One of them said he felt embarrassed driving them, 'yep just me, driving along in this fool thing wasting your tax dollars'.  And unfortunately management thinks a hummer will go places a 4WD F150 won't go.
 
2013-03-24 03:57:21 PM
yeah way to fail on scientific rigor, reporter.  Without getting into full 4wd systems, there's still four combinations of AWD and tires you can make if you start with an AWD car, its non-AWD equivalent, summer tires, and winter tires.

AWD-Regular tires
AWD-Winter tires
Non-AWD-Regular tires
Non-AWD-Winter tires.

He's compared the first and the last, and that's all.  So the question is, what happens if you stick winter tires on an AWD car?  I dunno...
 
2013-03-24 03:59:41 PM

Ishidan: yeah way to fail on scientific rigor, reporter.  Without getting into full 4wd systems, there's still four combinations of AWD and tires you can make if you start with an AWD car, its non-AWD equivalent, summer tires, and winter tires.

AWD-Regular tires
AWD-Winter tires
Non-AWD-Regular tires
Non-AWD-Winter tires.

He's compared the first and the last, and that's all.  So the question is, what happens if you stick winter tires on an AWD car?  I dunno...


...it's pretty awesome

i21.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-24 04:21:15 PM

traylor: Yep, snow tires will do. Because snow tires are AWESOME.


Real snow tires--the studded kind--will increase the coefficient of friction between your tires and ice, something that AWD or 4WD can't do.
 
2013-03-24 04:52:59 PM

gibbon1: Jim_Callahan: AWD is better for traction, single-axle drives are better for efficiency, completely fixed differential (4WD) is better for power.

I talked to a couple of BLM rangers once about trucks.  They loved, just loved 2WD F150 pickup trucks.  Great great truck. goes anywhere you'd want to go, and unlike the 4WD units won't go where you do not want to go.  Plus you can stick a dead deer in the back.

They hated the Hummers homeland security forced on them.  First off, you cannot stick a dead deer in the back of a Hummer. The hummers wheel base is too wide for narrow dirt roads, One of them said he felt embarrassed driving them, 'yep just me, driving along in this fool thing wasting your tax dollars'.  And unfortunately management thinks a hummer will go places a 4WD F150 won't go.


To be fair, the only place an F150 is really suited towards going to after about 4 years is the junkyard.  But I still take your point about a pickup being better than a hummer for most BLM uses.

/Former state employee
//Large fleet of Ford trucks
///cannot count the number of times I've heard the "knock of death" on some F*50 truck
 
2013-03-24 04:59:05 PM

yukichigai: gibbon1: Jim_Callahan: AWD is better for traction, single-axle drives are better for efficiency, completely fixed differential (4WD) is better for power.

I talked to a couple of BLM rangers once about trucks.  They loved, just loved 2WD F150 pickup trucks.  Great great truck. goes anywhere you'd want to go, and unlike the 4WD units won't go where you do not want to go.  Plus you can stick a dead deer in the back.

They hated the Hummers homeland security forced on them.  First off, you cannot stick a dead deer in the back of a Hummer. The hummers wheel base is too wide for narrow dirt roads, One of them said he felt embarrassed driving them, 'yep just me, driving along in this fool thing wasting your tax dollars'.  And unfortunately management thinks a hummer will go places a 4WD F150 won't go.

To be fair, the only place an F150 is really suited towards going to after about 4 years is the junkyard.  But I still take your point about a pickup being better than a hummer for most BLM uses.

/Former state employee
//Large fleet of Ford trucks
///cannot count the number of times I've heard the "knock of death" on some F*50 truck


My dad's 03 is still running strong and looking great.
 
2013-03-24 05:17:03 PM
it's very important to understand that Four Wheel Drive is NOT All Wheel Drive

and that both have different characteristics on road surfaces.

4WD has locking differentials

AWD does not and also utilizes computer controlled wheel-spin/slip braking to help distribute even torque to each 4 of the wheels

The author is caught up on "handling" and then brings up "snow"  -   bullshiat, the two are like Oil and Water

AWD undeniably give better "overall" performance in snow and ice, however only with proper shoes on.  Not unlike the assclown wearing cowboy boots in the snow.  4WD in snow is also not an ideal choice as the locking front diff often encounters solid road on turning radius and will crunch up them spider gears.

The SUV's in the ditch...  anyone driving by them in fwd does have an "mechanical" advantage, they're just more in tune with the capability of their vehicles.  Trust me anyone that's gone AWD in snowshoes, would never go back to FWD or RWD by choice.

Nothing works better than good ole common sense, slow and steady wins he race.

/owns a luxury awd and has logged multiple 200+ mile snow/ice covered road trips, maintaining a 45 mph average.
 
2013-03-24 05:19:24 PM
The SUV's in the ditch...  anyone driving by them in fwd does NOT have an "mechanical" advantage,
 
2013-03-24 05:47:59 PM
Picture from Lancashire today.

www.allartnews.com
 
2013-03-24 05:50:14 PM

Slutbucket: The SUV's in the ditch...  anyone driving by them in fwd does NOT have an "mechanical" advantage,


They're moving, the SUVs are not...I'd say they do.
 
2013-03-24 07:41:16 PM
For all the people claiming a FWD with snows won't make it up a hill, wtf are you trying to drive up? Denali? I've never once in my life gotten stuck on a hill, and I've driven all over NY/New England for 15 years of winters.
 
2013-03-24 07:42:57 PM

Publikwerks: Happy Hours: I've heard people proclaim that Subaru's are great in snow so much that I almost believe it, but I've never driven one. I'm not sure why that is other than I think they're all made with AWD, I don't believe they can defy the laws of physics though. If you're driving on a sheet of ice or there's very little friction you'd best slow down and avoid heavy braking.

You also can't floor it when the light turns green, I don't care how many wheels are fighting to gain traction. And be careful when cornering too.

My guess is that they are lower to the ground than alot of other AWDs.


Opposite.

There's "handling" AWD that you find in Mercedes/Audi/etc. and there's "go places awd". Subaru's AWD have more ground clearance and tend to be biased to act more like a 4x4 in high range.

Biases differ based on driveline and model, but that's why subaru awd tends to do well in snow.
 
2013-03-24 07:47:09 PM

Ker_Thwap: My favorite winter hobby is counting the AWD/4WD cars off the side of the highway.  It's a nice slow speed tool, but does squat otherwise.


It also helps if you're moving between lanes and hit a 6" deep pile of slush. The other day I was merging from one highway to another and when I hit the slush I felt the AWD kick in hard, if I had been in a FWD car I probably would have spun into the wall.
 
2013-03-24 08:37:40 PM
So, paid for by Les Schwab?
 
2013-03-24 08:38:05 PM
Was sold on AWD back in HS.  Mom got a Subaru after dad died and it was quite useful in the mountains where we lived.

Later on I drove my Eagle Talon TSi AWD to SLC for skiing, on the way back there was a foot of snow on I-15 near St. George.  Powered through it with no problems while everyone else was pulled over putting on chains.

My current ride:

www.automotiveaddicts.com

Modded to give me 263 whp. :)
 
2013-03-24 09:17:02 PM
My Audi S4 Avant Quattro FTW!

sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-03-24 09:21:47 PM
AWD: Yes.  Snow Tires: Not Exactly.

i1240.photobucket.com">
 
2013-03-24 09:48:14 PM

The Muthaship: AWD: Yes.  Snow Tires: Not Exactly.

[i1240.photobucket.com image 850x637]">


drooooooooooooooooooooooooool
 
2013-03-24 09:54:00 PM

Girion47: The Muthaship: AWD: Yes.  Snow Tires: Not Exactly.

[i1240.photobucket.com image 850x637]">

drooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Love yours, too.
 
2013-03-24 10:09:17 PM
AWD has its advantages and disadvantages.  I have had all three drive configurations and prefer them in this order: RWD, AWD, FWD.  One of my current rides is a Subaru legacy spec b.  Whether due to the tires (Potenza RE-11), or the AWD, the thing grips the road like a hooker grabbing her $20 bill.  Around corners its great.  At some other things, not so much.  I cant do donuts in it worth a damn.  It wont smoke the tires on launch no matter how hard I try and is nearly impossible to launch well.  The engine pretty much always bogs if you try to come off the line quickly.
 
2013-03-24 10:42:14 PM

Ima4nic8or: AWD has its advantages and disadvantages.  I have had all three drive configurations and prefer them in this order: RWD, AWD, FWD.  One of my current rides is a Subaru legacy spec b.  Whether due to the tires (Potenza RE-11), or the AWD, the thing grips the road like a hooker grabbing her $20 bill.  Around corners its great.  At some other things, not so much.  I cant do donuts in it worth a damn.  It wont smoke the tires on launch no matter how hard I try and is nearly impossible to launch well.  The engine pretty much always bogs if you try to come off the line quickly.


You need to learn how to use that Spec B properly ... it should do donuts beautifully if done right ... I loved my WRX and it would do axis spins all night long.

Also, launching an AWD car isn't about revving and dropping the clutch, you need to use your clutch pedal to get motive force AND not bog the engine.  It's something you can improve on and never worry about how to launch an AWD car (if done right, your 60 foots will be faster than even the best RWD cars).
 
2013-03-24 11:20:16 PM
Safety factors involved in driving in snowy/icy conditions, ranked in order of importance:

1) The skill of the driver behind you
2) The tires on the car behind you
3) The number of wheels driven on the car behind you
  .
  .
  .
69,105) Your skill as a driver
69,106) Your tires
69,107) The number of wheels driven on your car

Any questions?
 
2013-03-25 01:47:44 AM

Man On Pink Corner: Safety factors involved in driving in snowy/icy conditions, ranked in order of importance:

1) The skill of the driver behind you
2) The tires on the car behind you
3) The number of wheels driven on the car behind you

  .
69,105) Your skill as a driver
69,106) Your tires
69,107) The number of wheels driven on your car

Any questions?


0) Whether the driver behind/next to you is even paying attention.

Friend of mine on a rainy morning on HWY17 came around a downward corner and there was stopped traffic, which on that road is bad, cause there are no shoulders.  But he braked hard pumping his brakes and for a second thought, yeah I got this, before he got a glance at the lady in the Quaalude next to him and was like, nope I ain't got this, right before she spun into him.

Two things.

No AWD is not 4WD.  AWD is good for road surfaces with uneven traction at speed. 4WD is good for uneven or slippery surfaces at low speed.  2WD is just fine for puttering aroind on good roads. 2WD with a limited slip differential is a good way to die.
 
2013-03-25 07:41:15 AM

Kimpak: QFT!  Its hard to find a decent new car with a proper manual.  Flappy paddles do not count.  I miss my jeep, but it became too expensive to feed.


I love my manual FJ, smoothest manual transmission I've ever driven and I can go anywhere any time. Best non AWD vehicle I ever had in the snow, 86 Fiero. It was RWD but the engine was essentially right on top of the rear axle.
 
2013-03-25 08:17:15 AM

yukichigai: To be fair, the only place an F150 is really suited towards going to after about 4 years is the junkyard.  But I still take your point about a pickup being better than a hummer for most BLM uses.


My '96 F150 is doing just fine.  It does go to the junkyard...but only to haul junk to it.  Its been one of the most solid vehicles I've owned.
 
2013-03-25 02:39:00 PM
Can we all at least agree that people who don't clean the snow off their cars before going on the highway are jerks?
 
Displayed 185 of 185 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report