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(NBC News)   Scotland to vote on independence. This is a repeat from 1296   (worldnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 92
    More: Interesting, Scotland, First Minister Alex Salmond, British Parliament, Scottish Parliament, independence, Scottish National Party, independence referendum, Ryder Cup  
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3748 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Mar 2013 at 8:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-22 09:19:29 AM

orbister: The standard Scottish answer is that that is a matter for the people of England. Nobody here would care if Scottish MPs lost the vote on England-only matters, and indeed the SNP MPs never vote on such things, as a matter of principle.


Bullshiat.
 
2013-03-22 09:20:00 AM
storage.canoe.ca


What it means is more of this in the land of the over priviliged loud mouthed asshles.
 
2013-03-22 09:21:19 AM

mudesi: [www.erasofelegance.com image 232x364]

Prima Nocte. If we can't get them out, we breed them out.


Every thing I've read about that since the movie says that's bullshiat. Hard to believe, I know.
 
2013-03-22 09:27:47 AM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: orbister: The standard Scottish answer is that that is a matter for the people of England. Nobody here would care if Scottish MPs lost the vote on England-only matters, and indeed the SNP MPs never vote on such things, as a matter of principle.

Bullshiat.


That vote was on the tuition fees in English universities paid - inter alia - by the many Scots who go south of the border to study. Marginal, perhaps, but certainly not an England-only issue.
 
2013-03-22 09:28:49 AM

mudesi: Prima Nocte.


Made up for the film. Sorry.
 
2013-03-22 09:32:07 AM

cynicalbastard: Do some research on family backgrounds. Not so sure about the Aussies, but Canucks are practically Scottish themselves. They like curling, drinking and bagpipe music.


Well that could describe the Irish Canucks also ...except for the bagpipes and curling...LOL
 
2013-03-22 09:34:20 AM
I just thought of something regarding Braveheart....

William Wallace is told that if he submits to the king, his public torture session will end and he will be swiftly executed. Instead, he cries out freedom. Yet the executioner just goes ahead and kills him anyway. It's like he was daydreaming and just assumed Wallace screamed out for mercy.

Did I just find a plot hole or do I need to get some sleep? I honestly can't tell at this point.
 
2013-03-22 09:38:36 AM
While I think it would be monumentally stupid for Scotland to vote for independence, all sorts of hilarity would follow if it happened. Scottish nationalists are pro-EU while England nationalists are anti-EU so there is huge potential for a rift right there. And Great Britain could forget about the whole "Great" part, or having a voice in Europe, or of being the United State's best friend, or in maintaining a role in international peace keeping. It would transform itself from a regional super power into an economic and political backwater.

The Germans and French would be laughing their asses off the whole time.
 
2013-03-22 09:44:25 AM

orbister:  

That vote was on the tuition fees in English universities paid - inter alia - by the many Scots who go south of the border to study. Marginal, perhaps, but certainly not an England-only issue.


By that logic there is no issue that is "English only" or "Scottish only" as large numbers of people from both countries reside in the other and hence any laws passed affect English people in Scotland and Scottish people in England.

The vote affected matters in England and Wales only, affecting nobody living north of the border.
 
2013-03-22 09:45:17 AM

orbister: mudesi: Prima Nocte.

Made up for the film. Sorry.


Not much was accurate in that film.     The battle of Stirling Bridge doesn't bear much resemblance to reality other than it being a victory for Wallace.   The spear defense on the heavy cavalry didn't occur in that battle and when it was used at Falkirk, it was a complete failure.
 
2013-03-22 09:48:54 AM

Gortex: Umm...I thought that was a given. But how do local issues for England get dealt with? Do only the English MP's in Westminster vote on them, or does the whole Parliament do so? (E.g. the members from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, etc., even though it's an England-only matter)


Well, actually, England proper has a multi-tiered system of government that's similar to the American system, but much more stratified when it comes to issues that can be addressed. You can think of the Scottish and Welsh parliaments deal with their local issues because their population is much smaller than England's. The issues that are addressed in those parliaments are usually dealt with at the parish or council level in England, except for a few extras that were tacked on for the Scots - like fishing rights, police, and a separate legal system. So, for instance, if Angus MacDonnegal wants to get up a petition to force all the sheep in Scotland to be paraded through the streets of Glasgow on the third fortnight after Easter, that would be heard by the Scottish Parliament. But if Bertram St. John Smythe wants to get up a petition to force all cucumber sandwiches to be cut into squares instead of triangles, that would probably be heard by his local parish council, which consists of the vicar, some councilors hand-picked for docility by the three richest bastards in the county elected by all voting members of the public, and possibly a mayor or lord of the manor, depending on geographical location (I think, my info might be out of date).

The local council level has a number of variations depending primarily on geography and history. For example, London is a unitary authority, which means that it has a Lord Mayor and reports directly to Parliament. Some other counties however, like Buckinghamshire and Worcestershire are "shire" counties, which means that they have a two-tiered system where a local or parish council handles things like festivities, parks, taxes, and cemeteries, while the upper council handles things like fire and schools. The makeup of the councils is different, too - think of Tolkien when you think of the shire counties - Gandalf meets both with the commanders of the major military forces and with the dwarven raiding party on Smaug's lair, but while the dwarves in the Hobbit are just after some treasure and employ a thief, the major military forces employ armies and are after complete annihilation of their enemies. Much of the same principles apply in English local government, with the lower council being the dwarves (no pun intended) and the upper council the elves/humans/etc.

Of course, it's the differences between local governments that really explain the system. For example, England, unlike the U.S., has never really bothered to truly unite and standardize its areas of government, thinking somehow that this would be too efficient and logical, attributes commonly associated with the Germans, and therefore quite inappropriate to the governance of the Isles. Instead, through various insane rulers, rights of conquest, personal privilege, naked avarice, popular causes, and, when all else failed, smacking someone upside the head until they said 'uncle', they've managed to more or less create a government that resembles their architecture - antiquated, interesting, ornate, and horribly impractical. Much like English buildings, whenever something ceased to work, repairs were attempted through the laziest path of least resistance, while serious flaws were papered over and ignored. When additional capacity was needed, great big wodging holes were knocked into whatever structure happened to be handy and a hasty and ill-thought-out addition was whacked into place. Attempts at standardization and any sort of rational exploration were defeated by a lack of funds and willpower.

So, anyway, hope that answered some of your questions. If you're attempting to figure out how government in England works from any sort of rational standpoint, you're doomed to failure. You need a degree in history from somewhere that's ridiculously expensive and a lifetime's experience to figure out which sonofabiatch to blame when you get fined for having your wheelie bins to close to the kerb. Just try to remember that Tories are all rich bastards who want to smother you with money, Labour are all rich bastards who want to smother you with government, and the Liberal Democrats are all poor bastards who are what's left of the hippies after the Tories robbed them and Labour arrested them. Any other party is some rich bastard who can only keep one idea in his head at a time.
 
2013-03-22 09:54:15 AM
Yeah right.  And Puerto Rico becomes a State and Hawaii becomes an independent nation.  Please.
 
2013-03-22 10:02:04 AM

drxym: And Great Britain could forget about the whole "Great" part, or having a voice in Europe, or of being the United State's best friend, or in maintaining a role in international peace keeping. It would transform itself from a regional super power into an economic and political backwater.


What, just because they lost 10% of their population and a bit of largely uninhabited land to the north?
 
2013-03-22 10:04:52 AM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: The vote affected matters in England and Wales only, affecting nobody living north of the border.


It is arguable that the higher education system in England (and Scotland) is as much of a whole-UK issue as the Royal Mail or the Patent Office. I am not by any means a fan of the SNP, but I think it's safe to assume that if the measure had left the fees paid by Scots unchanged they would not have voted on it.

As it is the effect has been to reduce the number of Scots studying in England by something like 90%.
 
2013-03-22 10:09:00 AM

phyrkrakr: Well, actually, England proper has a multi-tiered system of government that's similar to the American system, but much more stratified when it comes to issues that can be addressed. You can think of the Scottish and Welsh parliaments deal with their local issues because their population is much smaller than England's. The issues that are addressed in those parliaments are usually dealt with at the parish or council level in England, except for a few extras that were tacked on for the Scots - like fishing rights, police, and a separate legal system.


Rubbish. The issues which are dealt with by local councils in England are dealt with by local councils in Scotland. Holyrood deals with a significant subset of the matters dealt with by Westminster.

Incidentally, we don't have parish councils, but since they are a trivial irrelevance to most people, that's not a particularly big difference. We have a system of community councils, which is practically moribund.

Finally, our separate legal system was hardly "tacked on" - it has been continuously in existence since long before the Act of Union.
 
2013-03-22 10:11:32 AM

phyrkrakr: For example, London is a unitary authority, which means that it has a Lord Mayor and reports directly to Parliament.


And to continue ...

London does not have a Lord Mayor. London has a Mayor, currently Boris Johnson. The City of London has a Lord Mayor, but that's a ceremonial position and has nothing to do with the city's governance.

What's different about London is that it has, like a few other places, a directly elected mayor who has significant powers. In most places, whether unitary to two-levl, the mayor is simply the name given to the majority leader in the council.
 
2013-03-22 10:24:09 AM

dryknife: Why do Scotsmen wear kilts?


So that the sheep won't run off when they hear a fly being unzipped.
Classic.

/half Scot myself
 
2013-03-22 10:24:34 AM

orbister: What, just because they lost 10% of their population and a bit of largely uninhabited land to the north?


That largely uninhabited land which has large oil and natural gas reserves, huge fish stocks, other natural resources, is host to various industrial centres including hi-tech manufacturing and is a huge tourism destination.
 
2013-03-22 10:36:36 AM

Wade_Wilson: cynicalbastard:Do some research on family backgrounds. Not so sure about the Aussies, but Canucks are practically Scottish themselves. They like curling, drinking and bagpipe music. Nuff said.

Wonder how politeness got into the mix. Ever been cursed at by a Scotsman? You will hear vowel sounds found nowhere else in human language. I'm pretty sure some of it is actually the Black Speech of Mordor in reverse.

Add in the French influence, and you'd think Canadians would be the rudest people on the planet.


We just ignore the french for the most part. Most of 'em stay in quebec anyhow, though there are still pockets in New Brunswick here and there, mostly in the north. NB is the only officially french/english bilingual province, but the signage varies depending on where you are.
 
2013-03-22 10:36:40 AM

drxym: orbister: What, just because they lost 10% of their population and a bit of largely uninhabited land to the north?

That largely uninhabited land which has large oil and natural gas reserves, huge fish stocks, other natural resources, is host to various industrial centres including hi-tech manufacturing and is a huge tourism destination.


Meh. They survived the loss of Ireland; they'll survive the loss of Scotland.

Incidentally, the oil is running out, the gas is mostly in England, the fisheries are near collapsed, there is little capacity for hydro left, high-tech manufacturing is dying and London gets around ten times as many overseas tourists each year as the whole of Scotland. Apart from that, you're spot-on.
 
2013-03-22 10:58:54 AM

CeroX: Well... if they left, then they feasibly could be kicked out of the EU as well, then there would be no welfare to keep them going and they would slowly collapse on themselves like a flan on a cupboard...


Nope, because Scotland isn't an EU member state. They can't be kicked out.

An newly independent Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, that has all ready been made clear (though, that ought to be fairly obvious. Why would they be?).
 
2013-03-22 11:01:50 AM
So what are they thinking?  Republic?  Monarchy?  Didn't the Stuarts turn into Wittelsbachs or something?  They're all nuts, you know.
 
2013-03-22 11:06:21 AM
Well, they already have their own language.
 
2013-03-22 11:11:44 AM
So what does the SNP plan on doing if Scotland becomes independent? It seems like a long-shot, but still...
 
2013-03-22 11:21:03 AM

spawn73:

An newly independent Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, that has all ready been made clear (though, that ought to be fairly obvious. Why would they be?).

It isn't at all clear. The only person in any position of power who has said so is the Spanish prime minister who (a) is not a constitutional lawyer and (b) does not want the Catalans and Basques getting any funny ideas. Scotland is in the EU and Scots are EU citizens - why should domestic government arrangements change that?

verbaltoxin: So what does the SNP plan on doing if Scotland becomes independent? It seems like a long-shot, but still...


Historically the SNP position was "Give us a majority at Westminster and we will negotiate independence and then dissolve". That has softened now to "Give us a majority at Holyrood and we'll delay as long as we possibly can before having a plebiscite on independence" and if they win I think they plan to stay in business as a soft-left party.

Remember, though, that is Salmond resigns or falls under a bus the SNP will collapse within days or weeks. Any part which offers Sturgeon as its second best is in deep, deep trouble.
 
2013-03-22 11:23:06 AM

rnatalie: The spear defense on the heavy cavalry didn't occur in that battle and when it was used at Falkirk, it was a complete failure.


No, the spear defense held against the English knights. It was the English longbow that Wallace had no answer for
 
2013-03-22 11:29:19 AM

orbister: Rubbish.


Yeah, I was pretty much talking out of my ass. Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff I didn't understand, though.
 
2013-03-22 11:34:52 AM

phyrkrakr: orbister: Rubbish.

Yeah, I was pretty much talking out of my ass. Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff I didn't understand, though.


You're a gent, sir. Thanks for taking my snark so well.

You're absolutely right about one thing, though - the structure of government in England is a complete mess. We may not be better run in Scotland, but at least we are most consistently run.
 
2013-03-22 11:40:18 AM

orbister: It isn't at all clear. The only person in any position of power who has said so is the Spanish prime minister who (a) is not a constitutional lawyer and (b) does not want the Catalans and Basques getting any funny ideas. Scotland is in the EU and Scots are EU citizens - why should domestic government arrangements change that?


No, citizens of the UK are also citizens of the EU. All the treaties are signed by the UK, not Scotland. There is no provision in any of the treaties that make up the EU for any region that leaves a member to automatically become a member. So if it doesn't state in black and white that Scotland will be member then Scotland will have to negatiate to be a member of the EU.

Simples.
 
2013-03-22 11:41:01 AM

Shanghai_Flyer: rnatalie: The spear defense on the heavy cavalry didn't occur in that battle and when it was used at Falkirk, it was a complete failure.

No, the spear defense held against the English knights. It was the English longbow that Wallace had no answer for


The English knights cleaned up once the schilltrom got thin enough, but they couldn't beat it without the longbow.
 
2013-03-22 11:48:21 AM

orbister: spawn73:

An newly independent Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, that has all ready been made clear (though, that ought to be fairly obvious. Why would they be?).

It isn't at all clear. The only person in any position of power who has said so is the Spanish prime minister who (a) is not a constitutional lawyer and (b) does not want the Catalans and Basques getting any funny ideas. Scotland is in the EU and Scots are EU citizens - why should domestic government arrangements change that?


Other than Barroso of Spain. England, Latvia, the Czech Republic and Ireland has said Scotland wont. 3 coutries have said there need to be more clarity of the rules, whilst the remaining 14 said "no comment".

No EU member state has said Scotland would be a member automaticly, and I am sure the vast majority would state that they wouldn't, but won't now as to not interfere with the internal politics of the UK.


That's not a domestic government arrangement. If Scotland gains independence, that's a new country that hasn't negotiated terms for their EU membership, and hasn't been accepted as member on any terms either.

Futhermore, it seems fairly obvious that an independent Scotland will amongst other things, decide whether they want to seek membership of EU, NATO, OECD etc. Anything else would be very undemocratic.

I'm not really seeing why Scotland couldn't gain membership to the EU, as I am sure the UK and Ireland wouldn't veto such a thing (?)?. If you have knowledge of any economic reasons or such that would prevent Scotland from gaining membership, then that's perhaps a very good reason to not seek independence.
 
2013-03-22 12:05:08 PM
I lived in Scotland once when I was a wee lad.  My guess is that the English view this similarly to how most folks would view it if Texas seceded.  And the Scots likely view it the exact same way Texans would.

/would make a true Scotsman joke, but the thread opened with that.  Which is good.
 
2013-03-22 12:22:09 PM

orbister: Meh. They survived the loss of Ireland; they'll survive the loss of Scotland.


You could probably survive the loss of your legs. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to remove them or that your quality of life would be better off if you did.
 
2013-03-22 12:27:30 PM

Norfolking Chance: No, citizens of the UK are also citizens of the EU. All the treaties are signed by the UK, not Scotland. There is no provision in any of the treaties that make up the EU for any region that leaves a member to automatically become a member. So if it doesn't state in black and white that Scotland will be member then Scotland will have to negatiate to be a member of the EU.

Simples.


It's not simple at all, because there are no provisions the other way either. It's simply not considered. I have in front of me my EU passport - by what legal mechanism do you think that would be withdrawn from me?

If the UK splits in two, why should England get to stay in? Remember that we are not talking about a region separating, we are talking about a union of two countries dissolving.
 
2013-03-22 12:40:30 PM

spawn73: If Scotland gains independence, that's a new country that hasn't negotiated terms for their EU membership, and hasn't been accepted as member on any terms either.


Precisely the same goes for England. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a member of the EU. England, Wales and Northern Ireland isn't.

It's a completely undefined area, and really quite surprisingly so given that two EU countries were formerly one, that another EU country is perpetually on the point of splitting into two equal halves and that a third EU country has two significant regions who would like to break away.

My own view is that EU membership after independence, if it happens, should be a matter for the people of Scotland and that if we wanted to stay in a fudge would be found to allow it. The EU is far more scared of the Catalans or the Walloons leaving the Euro than it is of Spain or Belgium splitting up.
 
2013-03-22 12:43:39 PM

drxym: You could probably survive the loss of your legs. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to remove them or that your quality of life would be better off if you did.


I really don't think England would be adversely affected by Scottish independence. The effects, one way or another, will or would apply overwhelmingly to Scotland.

I suspect that the split of Namibia from South Africa may be the closest model to what would happen here, since South Africa still supplies many functions, like Civil Aviation regulation, to their northern neighbour and the Namibian dollar has parity with the rand.
 
2013-03-22 12:59:31 PM
Counter proposal:
Instead of gaining independence, both parties agree that William ****ing Cromwell was an arse.
 
2013-03-22 01:02:32 PM

orbister: spawn73: If Scotland gains independence, that's a new country that hasn't negotiated terms for their EU membership, and hasn't been accepted as member on any terms either.

Precisely the same goes for England. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a member of the EU. England, Wales and Northern Ireland isn't.

It's a completely undefined area, and really quite surprisingly so given that two EU countries were formerly one, that another EU country is perpetually on the point of splitting into two equal halves and that a third EU country has two significant regions who would like to break away.

My own view is that EU membership after independence, if it happens, should be a matter for the people of Scotland and that if we wanted to stay in a fudge would be found to allow it. The EU is far more scared of the Catalans or the Walloons leaving the Euro than it is of Spain or Belgium splitting up.


The United Kingdom would just retain its membership sans Scotland.

It's not the United Kingdom splitting up and ceasing to exist (such as what happened to Yugoslavia), it's Scotland leaving the union, so it's Scotland that has to be dealt with and Scotland that has to start from scratch. Right down to pleading the United Nations to be recognised as a nation (surely a matter of formality, but still, that's Scotland, not something the United Kingdom would have to do).


Why would the EU be scared of the Catalans or the Walloons doing anything? The only people who gives a shiat are people native of Spain and Belgium. The former could be why Barosso felt he had to be vocal about his views on the subject, but EU, uh, why?
 
2013-03-22 01:31:14 PM

orbister: Norfolking Chance: No, citizens of the UK are also citizens of the EU. All the treaties are signed by the UK, not Scotland. There is no provision in any of the treaties that make up the EU for any region that leaves a member to automatically become a member. So if it doesn't state in black and white that Scotland will be member then Scotland will have to negatiate to be a member of the EU.

Simples.

It's not simple at all, because there are no provisions the other way either. It's simply not considered. I have in front of me my EU passport - by what legal mechanism do you think that would be withdrawn from me?

If the UK splits in two, why should England get to stay in? Remember that we are not talking about a region separating, we are talking about a union of two countries dissolving.




The UK isn't splitting apart its just loosing part of itself that's only around 10% of its population. The UK will still exist, just sans Scotland. If Wales and Northern Ireland joined Scotland then the UK will be dissolved but again that isn't happening.

Your passport will depend on what citizenship you decide on. If you want to keep your UK passport then you will have to be a citizen of the UK. If you want to be a citizen of the newly independent Scotland then your UK passport will be revoked and you will have to replace it with a Scottish passport. That will all be decided in the laws and treaties that will come into effect after a hypothetical independence vote.

The point is that Scotland won't automatically a member of the EU as there is no provision for it. So Scotland would have to negotiate its status with the EU and its members.
 
2013-03-22 01:31:23 PM

Novart: I just thought of something regarding Braveheart....

William Wallace is told that if he submits to the king, his public torture session will end and he will be swiftly executed. Instead, he cries out freedom. Yet the executioner just goes ahead and kills him anyway. It's like he was daydreaming and just assumed Wallace screamed out for mercy.

Did I just find a plot hole or do I need to get some sleep? I honestly can't tell at this point.


They wanted Wallace to say "Mercy". He wouldn't, so he died. Nothing complicated at all.
 
2013-03-22 03:10:36 PM

Gortex: An independent Scotland is about as viable as an independent Quebec, perhaps even less so.


Any particular reason you say that or are you just randomly spouting complete bollocks? I'd say any landmass with self contained oil and water, a separate well established legal and healthcare system and a 149 billion pounds a year GPD could stand on its own two feet perfectly well. Is there some magic thing that England, Wales and NI somehow provide Scotland with that we are missing?

I await the detailed explanation of your reasoning with baited breath.
 
2013-03-22 08:32:07 PM
www.loud-mouse.com
 
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