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(Miami Herald)   Neil Gaiman to bring his character Angela to Marvel Comics. Fanboys confused as to whether their slavish love and devotion to Gaiman trumps their hate for 1990s Image Comics   (miamiherald.com) divider line 52
    More: Interesting, Image Comics, Neil Gaiman, Marvel Comics, Marvel Entertainment, Brian Michael Bendis, Todd McFarlane  
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2063 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 Mar 2013 at 6:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-22 07:26:47 AM
Fark that, where's Miracleman?
 
2013-03-22 07:27:12 AM
media.miamiherald.com

I have no idea what's going on in this picture. It is worse than Rob Leifeld's Captain America cover.
 
2013-03-22 07:40:24 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: [media.miamiherald.com image 316x480]

I have no idea what's going on in this picture. It is worse than Rob Leifeld's Captain America cover.


Giant Tentacle Robot. That's... Japanesque.
 
2013-03-22 07:41:18 AM
Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.
 
2013-03-22 07:44:19 AM

mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.


I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.
 
2013-03-22 07:47:16 AM
How about my hate for Neil Gaiman? Where does that fit into this?
 
2013-03-22 07:50:26 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.


The trick to having sex with a cat is the cowboy boot. Stuff the cat head-first into the boot. Not only will the leather boot protect you from claws, but the cat will continue to force its way backwards, providing that much desired sense of reciprocation. (see sheep and cliff.)
 
2013-03-22 08:03:34 AM
Will he bring Tony, Samantha, Mona, and Jonathan too?
 
2013-03-22 08:04:25 AM

mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories?


I actually have to say, I tend to prefer his television work. Classic example: the BBC version of "Neverwhere" is superior to the novel  Neverwhere. I never got into his comic book stuff. His short stories can be pretty good.  Good Omens is hilarious, but he had a lot of help from Terry Prachett on that one.
 
2013-03-22 08:10:04 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.


Not saying your grasp of the material is shallow... but I've seen deeper mirrors
 
2013-03-22 08:15:56 AM

2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

Not saying your grasp of the material is shallow... but I've seen deeper mirrors


If you think American Gods is substantive, you're probably better off reading comic books.
 
2013-03-22 08:23:05 AM

KiplingKat278: AverageAmericanGuy: 2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy:

If you think American Gods is substantive, you're probably better off reading comic books.

Read Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, then read American Gods. Maybe then you understand the theme which was incredibly obvious in every page.

Karl Jung would have been having a flippin' party over that book.


Carl Jung?
 
2013-03-22 08:24:42 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.


Give ANANSI BOYS a try, especially the audio book version read by Lenny Henry.  I found it much more
focussed than AMERICAN GODS.

Apparently, when Gaiman was writing ANANSI BOYS, the voice he kept hearing for the narrator was
Lenny's (best known as the lead on the TV show CHEF here in America), and he told the publisher to
get Henry to record the audio book.

Henry is a huge comic fan, and would only do it for a complete run of first-printing SANDMAN, which
Gaiman had on hand, oddly enough.
 
2013-03-22 08:26:35 AM

DjangoStonereaver: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

Give ANANSI BOYS a try, especially the audio book version read by Lenny Henry.  I found it much more
focussed than AMERICAN GODS.

Apparently, when Gaiman was writing ANANSI BOYS, the voice he kept hearing for the narrator was
Lenny's (best known as the lead on the TV show CHEF here in America), and he told the publisher to
get Henry to record the audio book.

Henry is a huge comic fan, and would only do it for a complete run of first-printing SANDMAN, which
Gaiman had on hand, oddly enough.


There was one passage in American Gods that I thought was well-written, well-paced, and attention grabbing. That was the story of the migrants to America from the "old country". Is Anansi Boys like that?
 
2013-03-22 08:35:34 AM
I posted this yesterday from bleeding cool...admittedly your headline was better subby.

I was a die hard McFarlane fan even after Spawn kinda fell off in quality, but time has revealed that the guy is a narcissistic douchebag.

Gaimann is certainly no saint either, but now that Marvel has the character hopefully they can use her in a really cool way.
 
2013-03-22 08:39:23 AM

KiplingKat278: Read Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, then read American Gods. Maybe then you understand the theme which was incredibly obvious in every page


That's probably why I found  American Gods unsatisfying. Way too many people take Cambpell as gospel and then abuse the shiat out of his conclusions.
 
2013-03-22 08:54:44 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: DjangoStonereaver: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

Give ANANSI BOYS a try, especially the audio book version read by Lenny Henry.  I found it much more
focussed than AMERICAN GODS.

Apparently, when Gaiman was writing ANANSI BOYS, the voice he kept hearing for the narrator was
Lenny's (best known as the lead on the TV show CHEF here in America), and he told the publisher to
get Henry to record the audio book.

Henry is a huge comic fan, and would only do it for a complete run of first-printing SANDMAN, which
Gaiman had on hand, oddly enough.

There was one passage in American Gods that I thought was well-written, well-paced, and attention grabbing. That was the story of the migrants to America from the "old country". Is Anansi Boys like that?


I don't remember that particular passage in AG (its been a long while since I read it).  AB doesn't have
the tangle of sub-plots and characters, though.
 
2013-03-22 08:59:54 AM

KiplingKat278: it's about that Jungian approach to the collective subconscious and symbolism


Fine, I'll direct my ire at the sibling of Campbell abuse: Jung abuse. The third bastard is Chomsky abuse, but that doesn't apply here at all.

My basic objection still stands: we're talking about original thought that's obvious-after-the-fact, but continues to be viewed as a deep and earth shattering insight half a century later. Ideas which, in retrospect, probably aren't an accurate model of how things work anyway, but are a good  stab in the right direction, but have now become so oversimplified and embedded in the zeitgeist that they've ascended to lofty urban legends and are unlikely ever to be toppled.
 
2013-03-22 09:00:44 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.


Stick to the Bible, the deviant sex is probably more your style.
 
2013-03-22 09:08:34 AM

KiplingKat278: It's a fiction. I'm sorry it does not match the latest sociological. anthropological and psychological theory.


It's not about matching the latest theory. It's about not being trite. It's about being inventive, not retreading ideas that are older than the author. I haven't read  American Gods in years, nor really thought about it, but finally I'm putting into context why I was so unmoved by it. It's trite and derivative. I mean, let's be honest, gods coping with a changing world was done better many times over, including in Adams  The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul (which I also didn't like, but more for structural reasons).
 
2013-03-22 09:11:50 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: KiplingKat278: AverageAmericanGuy: 2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy:

If you think American Gods is substantive, you're probably better off reading comic books.

Read Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, then read American Gods. Maybe then you understand the theme which was incredibly obvious in every page.

Karl Jung would have been having a flippin' party over that book.

Carl Jung?


No, Karl.  I think he's a cable repair man or something.

blog.earnmydegree.com
 
2013-03-22 09:18:10 AM

foo monkey: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

The trick to having sex with a cat is the cowboy boot. Stuff the cat head-first into the boot. Not only will the leather boot protect you from claws, but the cat will continue to force its way backwards, providing that much desired sense of reciprocation. (see sheep and cliff.)


Wow. I can't believe how farked up, and at the same time useful that paragraph is.  I did not want to know this, but now I do.
 
2013-03-22 09:22:04 AM

t3knomanser: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories?

I actually have to say, I tend to prefer his television work. Classic example: the BBC version of "Neverwhere" is superior to the novel  Neverwhere. I never got into his comic book stuff. His short stories can be pretty good.  Good Omens is hilarious, but he had a lot of help from Terry Prachett on that one.


Oh, yea. I forgot he wrote that one episode of Doctor Who that everyone loved last year.

/it was good
/it wasn't the best
 
2013-03-22 09:30:08 AM

KiplingKat278: I can't believe you just called Neil Gaiman not inventive


I'm speaking directly in the context of  American Gods, which was not inventive, but was trite. I'm not making a broader statement on his corpus.
 
2013-03-22 09:36:26 AM

KiplingKat278: and lacking the deeper themes


Neither contains any deep themes, but  Neverwhere creates a more interesting setting. Mind you, my first exposure to the setting wasn't through  Neverwhere- it was through  Underworld, an RPG. And also, the book was no where as good as the BBC serial. Which was good, but not great.
 
2013-03-22 09:56:23 AM
child_god:  Wow. I can't believe how farked up, and at the same time useful that paragraph is.  I did not want to know this, but now I do.

I think you mean "informative" rather than "useful."

/Dear god, I hope you mean "informative" rather than useful...
 
2013-03-22 10:09:13 AM

t3knomanser: KiplingKat278: it's about that Jungian approach to the collective subconscious and symbolism

Fine, I'll direct my ire at the sibling of Campbell abuse: Jung abuse. The third bastard is Chomsky abuse, but that doesn't apply here at all.

My basic objection still stands: we're talking about original thought that's obvious-after-the-fact, but continues to be viewed as a deep and earth shattering insight half a century later. Ideas which, in retrospect, probably aren't an accurate model of how things work anyway, but are a good  stab in the right direction, but have now become so oversimplified and embedded in the zeitgeist that they've ascended to lofty urban legends and are unlikely ever to be toppled.


What about Freud abuse, and Nietzsche abuse?
 
2013-03-22 10:13:10 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: 2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

Not saying your grasp of the material is shallow... but I've seen deeper mirrors

If you think American Gods is substantive, you're probably better off reading comic books.


If you can't grasp that there are themes worth exploring in AG perphaps you should stick with James Joyce, Victor Hugo, and Moliere.
 
2013-03-22 10:38:26 AM
Angela moves to Earth-616?  I'm groovy with that.
 
2013-03-22 10:53:23 AM
www.gangstersaysrelax.com

Pictured: 90% of the farkers in this thread.

Holy shiat.
 
2013-03-22 10:55:55 AM
"The Graveyard Book" Is quite good, all in all. It's likely my favorite book of Mr. Gaiman's. "Stardust" was also excellent, with a much more effective ending than the movie, I felt. Beyond those two, his works are all over the place. "Neverwhere" had some great moments that weren't all that well tied together, "Anasasi Boys" had some great ideas and a terrific ending, but the purpose of the book never really emerged for me. It was a concept in need of a better plot to be hung upon. "American Gods" was just... yeah... I never finished it either.

Christopher Moore is another writer who works in much the same "vein" as Neil Gaiman, and seems better at pacing and plot construction. His ideas never seem to get quite as mythological as Gaiman, but they are funny, witty and well done fiction. I suggest them to people who might not have otherwise heard of him, or avoided him due to his more mainstream appeal. "The Gospel of Biff" is especially humorous.
 
2013-03-22 11:05:51 AM
Gaiman's books are a lot like Bethesda games. The enjoyment is in exploring a strange, fascinating while the main plot is there mainly as an excuse for exploration.

I liked Aimerican Gods, but never looked at it as anything more than an inetersting fiction book. I never could understand the big deal people make about it.
 
2013-03-22 11:14:44 AM

KiplingKat278: deeper


KiplingKat278: trite


If I think something is trite, then I do not think it is deep. These words are not exactly antonyms, but being trite pretty much precludes any hope of being deep. I mean, sure,  American Gods has deeper themes than  Neverwhere, which is like comparing a pothole with a puddle.
 
2013-03-22 11:15:12 AM

2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy: 2wolves: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

Not saying your grasp of the material is shallow... but I've seen deeper mirrors

If you think American Gods is substantive, you're probably better off reading comic books.

If you can't grasp that there are themes worth exploring in AG perphaps you should stick with James Joyce, Victor Hugo, and Moliere.


What are three authors I haven't read, Alex?

Actually, I've tried to get through Hugo, but I just couldn't get through the translation.

I prefer Nabokov, Rushdie, and Vidal.
 
2013-03-22 11:21:02 AM

mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.


"The Sandman" is good, but it hasn't aged well.  Particularly the use of a Nagel Girl to represent the avatar of Desire.  The art is also horrid in the first few issues.
 
2013-03-22 11:58:49 AM

t3knomanser: It's about not being trite. It's about being inventive, not retreading ideas that are older than the author.


I am sure bestselling and critically acclaimed multi-discipline author Neil Gaiman will take your criticism to heart and try to raise his game to re-engage you. It seems to me that ideas that are older then he is is sort of his thing. But what do I know.
 
2013-03-22 12:06:11 PM
I'm about halfway through Neverwhere,and I'm enjoying it. I just like a good story and it's going good so far.
 
2013-03-22 12:38:22 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: There was one passage in American Gods that I thought was well-written, well-paced, and attention grabbing. That was the story of the migrants to America from the "old country". Is Anansi Boys like that?



Your mileage will always vary with these kinds of things - I know I enjoyed a lot of Gaiman's works a lot more than some others in this thread did - but for me, Anansi Boys was less 'high concept' and more fun than American Gods was, while still indulging in the usual Gaiman-y things like peeks into a reality behind reality and how stories change the tellers. Here's one of my favorite passages from the book that I love copying & pasting:


"You want to hear a story?" asked the old man.
"Not really," she admitted.
He helped her to her feet, and they walked out of the Garden of Rest.
"Fair enough. Then I'll keep it short. Not got too long. You know, I can tell one of those stories so it lasts for weeks. It's all in the details -- what you put in, what you don't. I mean, you leave out the weather and what people are wearing, you can skip half the story. I once told a story --"
"Look," she said, "if you're going to tell a story, then just tell it to me, all right?" It was bad enough walking along the side of the road in the gathering dusk. She reminded herself that she wasn't going to be hit by a passing car, but it did nothing to make her feel more at ease.
The old man started to talk in a gentle sing-song. "When I say 'Tiger'", he said, "You got to understand it's not just the stripy cat, the India one. It's just what people call big cats -- the pumas and the bobcats and the jaguars and all of them. You got that?"
"Certainly."
"Good. So . . . a long time ago," he began, "Tiger had all the stories. All the stories there ever were was Tiger stories, all the songs were Tiger songs, and I'd say that all the jokes were Tiger jokes, but there weren't no jokes told back in the Tiger days. In Tiger stories all that matters is how strong your teeth are, how you hunt and how you kill. Ain't no gentleness in Tiger stories, no tricksiness, and no peace."
Maeve tried to imagine what kind of stories a big cat might tell. "So they were violent?"
"Sometimes. But mostly what they was, was bad. When all the stories and the songs were Tiger's, that was a bad time for everyone. People take on the shapes of the songs and the stories that surround them, especially if they don't have their own songs. And in Tiger times all the songs were dark. They began in tears, and they'd end in blood, and they were the only stories that the people of this world knew.
"Then Anansi comes along. Now I guess you know all about Anansi --"
"I don't think so," said Maeve.
"Well, if I started to tell you how clever and how handsome and how charming and how cunning Anansi was, I could start today and not finish until next Thursday," began the old man.
"Then don't," said Maeve. "We'll take it as said. And what did this Anansi do?"
"Well, Anansi won the stories -- won them? No. He earned them. He took them from Tiger, and made it so Tiger couldn't enter the real world no more. Not in the flesh. The stories people told became Anansi stories. This was, what, ten, fifteen thousand years back.
"Now, Anansi stories, they have wit and trickery and wisdom. Now, all over the world, all of the people they aren't just thinking of hunting and being hunted anymore. Now they're starting to think their way out of problems -- sometimes thinking their way into worse problems. They still need to keep their bellies full, but now they're trying to figure out how to do it without working -- and that's the point where people start using their heads. Some people think the first tools were weapons, but that's all upside down. First of all, people figure out the tools. It's the crutch before the club, every time. Because now people are telling Anansi stories, and they're starting to think about how to get kissed, how to get something for nothing by being smarter or funnier. That's when they start to make the world."
"It's just a folk story," she said. "People made up the stories in the first place."
"Does that change things?" asked the old man. "Maybe Anansi's just some guy from a story, made up back in Africa in the dawn days of the world by some boy with blackfly on his leg, pushing his crutch in the dirt, making up some goofy story about a man made of tar. Does that change anything? People respond to the stories. They tell them themselves. The stories spread, and as people tell them, the stories change the tellers. Because now the folk who never had any thought in their head but how to run from lions and keep far enough away from rivers that the crocodiles don't get an easy meal, now they're starting to dream about a whole new place to live. The world may be the same, but the wallpaper's changed. Yes? People still have the same story, the one where they get born and they do stuff and they die, but now the story means something different to what it meant before."
"You're telling me that before the Anansi stories the world was savage and bad?"
"Yeah. Pretty much."
She digested this. "Well," she said cheerily, "it's certainly a good thing that the stories are now Anansi's."
The old man nodded.
And then she said, "Doesn't Tiger want them back?"
He nodded. "He's wanted them back for ten thousand years."
"But he won't get them, will he?"
The old man said nothing. He stared into the distance. Then he shrugged. "Be a bad thing if he did."
 
2013-03-22 12:56:51 PM

KiplingKat278: It was Shakespeare's thing too, and Tolkien. Salman Rushdie, Umberto Eco, It's the thing for a lot of writers.


Well, that shiat don't fly with T3knomanser. He's looking for new ideas.
 
2013-03-22 01:55:49 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.


So, that must mean you made it past the part where the prostitute sucks the john into her vagina entirely, and kept reading. Interesting.
 
2013-03-22 01:59:59 PM

Farker Soze: AverageAmericanGuy: mat catastrophe: Are his "adult" works better than his children's stories? Because, you know, I snagged one or two of them for the library in a vain attempt at making my little dudes into little hipsters and we all agreed that they pretty well sucked.

I got to the point in American Gods where some Middle Eastern schlub ended up having gay sex with a New York cab driver who was actually a djinn, then the main character had sex with a cat. That's when I gave up on the book and Gaiman in general.

So, that must mean you made it past the part where the prostitute sucks the john into her vagina entirely, and kept reading. Interesting.


Yes. There was that too.
 
2013-03-22 02:47:28 PM

JohnBigBootay: But what do I know.


Well, I know that no matter how much you white knight him, he still isn't going to sleep with you.

I don't dislike Gaiman or his work. I think he's heavily overrated by a certain class of people. I rank him around the same place I rank JMS: their career is a long chain of hits and misses, a little heavier in the misses, but when they hit, they're swinging for the fences.
 
2013-03-22 02:56:21 PM

KiplingKat278: It was Shakespeare's thing too, and Tolkien. Salman Rushdie, Umberto Eco, It's the thing for a lot of writers.


Bullshiat. All four of those writers were incredibly inventive, and each said incredibly original things and expressed original ideas. The fact that these original ideas were very similar and even based on old ideas is a little interesting, certainly, but these weren't "old ideas presented in new ways".

Let's just look at Shakespeare, who made a career out of taking the hoariest old plots and reinventing them for an entirely new medium. The amount of invention that went into this process, the use of completely invented forms of language, it's just staggering. We remember Shakespeare for a reason, and that reason is in his  inventiveness. No one had ever done anything like what Shakespeare did, and our relationship with language has changed such that no one ever will repeat that again.
 
2013-03-22 03:27:58 PM
Wake me up when there is a comic/short film adaptation of this:

http://www.neilgaiman.com/mediafiles/exclusive/shortstories/emerald. pd f
 
2013-03-22 03:55:23 PM

t3knomanser: Well, I know that no matter how much you white knight him, he still isn't going to sleep with you.


That's actually a plus. I think it's fantastic that some dudes enjoy sleeping with other dudes but it's not my thing.

I don't dislike Gaiman or his work. I think he's heavily overrated by a certain class of people.

Not much of a rater of writers myself. If it seems interesting I'll pick it up and give it a shot. If I like it, I'll finish it. I've enjoyed several of his but I'm not going build a matrix and rank him vs other writers. It just seems so.... pointless.
 
2013-03-22 04:09:57 PM

KiplingKat278: Will you make up your mind?


I have been very consistent.

KiplingKat278: so it was not for a entirely new medium


For English speakers, it was. The core invention of Shakespeare was his use of language- he did things with it not done by anyone before. Theater dates back to time immemorial, but Shakespeare essentially invented modern English theater whole cloth*.

JohnBigBootay: It just seems so.... pointless.


We agree on something.

*Okay, so that isn't actually true, but it's "true enough" for our purposes here. It's less that Shakespeare invented it, and more that he crystalized it into the form we know today. A subtle, but important difference.
 
2013-03-22 04:35:11 PM

KiplingKat278: you say he did not work from old themes


I did not say that. I said he was incredibly inventive. I said that his ideas borrowed from the old.

KiplingKat278: The play was not a new "medium:" for English speakers


Having performed plays in Middle English, I'm quite aware. But this gets into the deeper changes going on at the time, so we'll just leave it aside.

KiplingKat278: Marlow was paving the way for him. And many others shaped theater


I know footnotes are generally ignored, but hey, it's true enough for the purposes at hand, which is a thread about a popular writer who is mostly okay.

KiplingKat278: but he did borrow from old sources to retell stories in a new way


Highlighted my point for you. Shakespeare was incredibly inventive, doing things with language that nobody else really did- not even Marlow. Each play was chockful of something new, even when he was at his hackiest.
 
2013-03-23 06:57:42 AM

KiplingKat278: Sgt Otter: "The Sandman" is good, but it hasn't aged well. Particularly the use of a Nagel Girl to represent the avatar of Desire. The art is also horrid in the first few issues.

The art has not aged well, but the stories have aged well considering the very era-specific nature of works like V for Vendetta and The Watchmen. Sandman is not dependent on an era, the stories are more universal.


To quote the Joe Pesci pigeon from "GoodFeathas":  "That's it!!!"

V for Vendetta was era-specific?  Really?  It was published in anthology form between 1982-1985; it certainly applied to the era of Thatcher and Regan governments.  It certainly applies now (c.f. Anonymous movement).

But you're right.  It really only applies to that era when there have been governments that try to enforce beliefs upon the governed.
 
2013-03-23 07:11:14 AM

t3knomanser: No one had ever done anything like what Shakespeare did, and our relationship with language has changed such that no one ever will repeat that again.


Congrats, t3kno, you've just invented a new kind of sophistry, hereinafter referred to as "Billy Pilgrimism" since your arguments are unstuck in time.  No one ever did what Willy boy did?  Paging Chaucer, please report to FARK thread 7658897.  No one will ever repeat that again?  Interesting opinion, but entirely impossible to prove; all it reveals is that Shakespeare and Gaiman are evidently at opposite ends of your literary scale.
 
2013-03-23 01:32:34 PM

KiplingKat278: docmattic: Paging Chaucer, please report to FARK thread 7658897.

Thank you. I should have thought of that.

For someone who accused people of "white knighting" t3knomanser engages in it to a rather rabid degree here. Shakepeare was an amazing writer who contributed much, but he is not the end all be all of the English language or theatre.


"..to a rather rabid degree" is putting it mildly... he evidently loves Shakespeare so much, his favourite character is probably Fellatio.
 
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