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(Chattanooga Times Free Press)   GOP governors for the last few years: lets slash taxes on businesses and the wealthy to show how "business friendly" we are" GOP governors now: We're broke and businesses are complaining our roads are crap-so let's double the gas tax   (timesfreepress.com) divider line 287
    More: Asinine, GOP, gasoline taxes, Republican governors, Michigan, third rail, Rick Snyder, vehicle registrations, sales taxes  
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2836 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Mar 2013 at 12:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-21 01:31:22 PM

Gulper Eel: But gasoline taxes, some Republican officials say, are a lesser evil because the money traditionally doesn't wind up in general spending, but rather in building infrastructure, which helps boost economic development.

Long as the gas tax money stays out of the general fund and really does go to the roads, I'm okay with this.

And envious. New York's gas tax money goes into the general fund, and if you don't pay appropriate homage to the bosses you don't get jack shiat done in your district - and even then, the NYC Democratic machine gets first dibs.


Cripes are you a one track mind whiner.
 
2013-03-21 01:31:28 PM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: skullkrusher:

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

Heh - A guy I know believes the federal highways program was one of the most useless and wasteful government programs in history. See - he has a jeep and if he wants to drive to Texas (from DC) he could just go off road the whole way so why should he be forced to pay for roads between his house and Florida, let alone all the roads that go to places he doesn't intend to visit.

/CSB


your friend sounds like a dummy but that also sounds awesome.
 
2013-03-21 01:32:52 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Gulper Eel: But gasoline taxes, some Republican officials say, are a lesser evil because the money traditionally doesn't wind up in general spending, but rather in building infrastructure, which helps boost economic development.

Long as the gas tax money stays out of the general fund and really does go to the roads, I'm okay with this.

And envious. New York's gas tax money goes into the general fund, and if you don't pay appropriate homage to the bosses you don't get jack shiat done in your district - and even then, the NYC Democratic machine gets first dibs.

Cripes are you a one track mind whiner.


NYC DEMONCRATIC MACHINE APPEASER!
 
2013-03-21 01:33:30 PM

jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?


I wish someone would tell the Governor of NC this. Alas he seems to believe that the way forward is to copy the ideas of the broke states. After all who needs infrastructures when your buddies who paid for the campaign can get a nice pay rise right now.
 
2013-03-21 01:34:48 PM
So once again the tax burden has been shifted to the middle/low income people that are trying to eek out a living by going to and from their 9-5 jobs?  Why am I not surprised?
 
2013-03-21 01:35:16 PM

skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: TheGogmagog: jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?

I was told private industry would pay for the roads.  They don't need government help for anything.

who told you that?

[progressivemetrowestsouth.files.wordpress.com image 450x435]

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

You should look into who owns the I-90 toll road here in Indiana.  I'll give you a hint: It's not even an American operation.

but it's basically run as a utility, isn't it? Under lease from the state with restrictions on fees and requirements for condition?


Sure, they do need to use some of the money for upkeep and operational costs, but it is still privately owned and operating to make a personal profit for the company that owns it.

It's also operated horribly with, oftentimes, no toll attendants on duty and really shoddy maintenance.
 
2013-03-21 01:35:37 PM
Time for the Republicans to fark the poor and middle class again.  It must be a Thursday.
 
2013-03-21 01:35:52 PM
Or they can take the IL approach and increase taxes, have crumbling infrastructure, have employers run away like that girl you have been stalking and still not come close to a ballanced budget.
 
2013-03-21 01:36:03 PM

PsyLord: So once again the tax burden has been shifted to the middle/low income people that are trying to eek out a living by going to and from their 9-5 jobs?  Why am I not surprised?


Because you still won't respect your betters, plebe!
 
2013-03-21 01:37:24 PM
Turn 696 and I-75 in Wayne County into a speed-limit-free toll road - everyone is driving 90+ anyway and the city can't afford patrols there as it is.

Charge a "user fee" for bullets, lighters and matches in Wayne County.
Lower Murder rate
Lower Arson rate
Profit

Sell Ambassador Bridge
*ducks*

Leave the UP and Onaway the hell alone.
 
2013-03-21 01:37:31 PM

skullkrusher: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: skullkrusher:

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

Heh - A guy I know believes the federal highways program was one of the most useless and wasteful government programs in history. See - he has a jeep and if he wants to drive to Texas (from DC) he could just go off road the whole way so why should he be forced to pay for roads between his house and Florida, let alone all the roads that go to places he doesn't intend to visit.

/CSB

your friend sounds like a dummy but that also sounds awesome.


You should tell him to try it just for the lulz.  I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't get halfway to FL before he is either stuck, his suspension destroyed, tires blown, or engine overheats.
 
2013-03-21 01:37:55 PM

Magorn: What did Granholm do that was equivalent?


She had a mole on her face
 
2013-03-21 01:38:35 PM
As a mid Michigan resident I'd like to know one thing:  Will that be enough money?  Cause some of these roads are bad.  Like, really, really bad.  I've lived in a number of states and I think MI has the worse roads I've ever been in.
 
2013-03-21 01:39:29 PM
The important thing is that a Pledge isn't broken.
 
2013-03-21 01:39:44 PM

Lumpmoose: xanadian: They also like the simple idea behind it. "It's a user fee," Snyder said. "If you use the roads more, you should pay more. If you use the roads less, you should pay less."

...

Ok, that actually makes some sense.  Doesn't take into account the poor slobs who *have* to commute an hour each day because their job is so f*cking far from home.

It's practically the definition of a regressive tax.  There's nothing wrong with supporting regressive taxation--you just have to live with the economy, government and social structure that results.


Sort of.  If you are so poor you don't have a car, you don't pay it.  That is, it hurts the "upper lower class" the most, but the very, very poor are spared.
 
2013-03-21 01:40:31 PM

G. Gordon Libbie: Sell Ambassador Bridge
*ducks*


Ummm....  Isn't that bridge already privately owned?
 
2013-03-21 01:41:05 PM

Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: TheGogmagog: jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?

I was told private industry would pay for the roads.  They don't need government help for anything.

who told you that?

[progressivemetrowestsouth.files.wordpress.com image 450x435]

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

You should look into who owns the I-90 toll road here in Indiana.  I'll give you a hint: It's not even an American operation.

but it's basically run as a utility, isn't it? Under lease from the state with restrictions on fees and requirements for condition?

Sure, they do need to use some of the money for upkeep and operational costs, but it is still privately owned and operating to make a personal profit for the company that owns it.

It's also operated horribly with, oftentimes, no toll attendants on duty and really shoddy maintenance.


I don't have much of an issue with major roads being run as utilities by private entities as long there are sensible restrictions in place and enforced. If it can make fiscal sense for a state to do it, then do it. Purely private major roads would be a terrible, terrible idea.
 
2013-03-21 01:43:43 PM

Saiga410: Or they can take the IL approach and increase taxes, have crumbling infrastructure, have employers run away like that girl you have been stalking and still not come close to a ballanced budget.


No joke. I tell my wife they should charge a tax to move out, they'd make millions.

/and then promptly embezzle it
//or prioritize some other stupid think they can find like that parking meter fiasco
///amazed the state is blue honestly
 
2013-03-21 01:44:04 PM

jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?


That might be true on occasion  and might have been true years ago, but your average business today will move a company because of the massive tax breaks and those tax breaks typically end up in the hands of a few.

"Big Business" these days is more about finding creative ways to line the pockets of a few with money from the 98% than it is about running a company well.
 
2013-03-21 01:45:28 PM

Magorn: verbaltoxin: Magorn: //// S'why most days I take a commuter bus that is $7 a day each way -cheaper than driving (no gas costs) and they at least get to use the carpool lanes

If there's any place that needs more mass transit and less PMV's, it's the beltway.

which is why I am a big fan of the Silver Line metro expansion that McDonnell has done his level best to kill- and why I'm pretty bitter about his creation of privaely-owned "HOT" lanes on the Beltway where you get to use the special lanes so long as you are willing to pony up a toll that varies by how bad the traffic is in the plebian lanes (and the fact that contract has a 'non-compete clause that forbid the state from adding any more free lanes to the beltway to ease congestion)


Whoa, deja vu.  Same exact thing happened in Southern California along the 91 freeway in Orange County (heading from Riverside County) about a decade ago, complete with the non-compete clause.  Eventually some government agency took over the lanes when the private company went out of business, although they still have a toll.
 
2013-03-21 01:51:26 PM
Republicans raise regressive taxes to pay for breaks on the wealthy? I'm shocked.
 
2013-03-21 01:52:38 PM

skullkrusher: more toll roads is probably a better solution


Which would then basically be a mileage tax.  You'd have to go beyond the freeways to make that a solution.
 
2013-03-21 01:52:56 PM

PsyLord: skullkrusher: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: skullkrusher:

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

Heh - A guy I know believes the federal highways program was one of the most useless and wasteful government programs in history. See - he has a jeep and if he wants to drive to Texas (from DC) he could just go off road the whole way so why should he be forced to pay for roads between his house and Florida, let alone all the roads that go to places he doesn't intend to visit.

/CSB

your friend sounds like a dummy but that also sounds awesome.

You should tell him to try it just for the lulz.  I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't get halfway to FL before he is either stuck, his suspension destroyed, tires blown, or engine overheats.


I read about a couple that did that from the canadian border to the mexican border, using no paved roads. Took them more than 3 weeks. Your friend has no clue what he'd be up against...
 
2013-03-21 01:57:27 PM

12349876: skullkrusher: more toll roads is probably a better solution

Which would then basically be a mileage tax.  You'd have to go beyond the freeways to make that a solution.


mileage tax based on vehicle size makes more sense than a fuel tax anyway
 
2013-03-21 01:57:31 PM

Psylence: PsyLord: skullkrusher: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: skullkrusher:

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

Heh - A guy I know believes the federal highways program was one of the most useless and wasteful government programs in history. See - he has a jeep and if he wants to drive to Texas (from DC) he could just go off road the whole way so why should he be forced to pay for roads between his house and Florida, let alone all the roads that go to places he doesn't intend to visit.

/CSB

your friend sounds like a dummy but that also sounds awesome.

You should tell him to try it just for the lulz.  I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't get halfway to FL before he is either stuck, his suspension destroyed, tires blown, or engine overheats.

I read about a couple that did that from the canadian border to the mexican border, using no paved roads. Took them more than 3 weeks. Your friend has no clue what he'd be up against...


If Horatio Jackson can do it why not that guy?
 
2013-03-21 02:00:35 PM
"They also like the simple idea behind it."

That is the crux of every GOP motive!

When does life begin?  "Conception" keeps it simple.
When does rape occur? "Only when it leaves obvious wounds" keeps it simple.
What should government do? "As little as possible" keeps it simple.
Where is moral authority? "In one book" keeps it simple.
 
2013-03-21 02:00:59 PM

skullkrusher: 12349876: skullkrusher: more toll roads is probably a better solution

Which would then basically be a mileage tax.  You'd have to go beyond the freeways to make that a solution.

mileage tax based on vehicle size makes more sense than a fuel tax anyway


Would we all end up getting "taxed" for that because truck transportation expenses would go up?
 
2013-03-21 02:02:46 PM
G. Gordon Libbie:
Sell Ambassador Bridge
*ducks*



Somehow I doubt Matty Moroun would be interested.
 
2013-03-21 02:05:00 PM
"A hundred and twenty bucks is a lot, especially for minimum-wage people," said April Steen, 28, a Lansing nurse who said potholes had bent her rims three times.

Seems to me $10 a month would be a pretty good investment to not have the road destroy your car.  That is if you can actually trust the State to properly use the funds, but that is a different argument.
 
2013-03-21 02:05:07 PM

Mr_H: As a mid Michigan resident I'd like to know one thing:  Will that be enough money?  Cause some of these roads are bad.  Like, really, really bad.  I've lived in a number of states and I think MI has the worse roads I've ever been in.


I would agree that Michigan has the worst roads in the nation... Possibly world.
 
2013-03-21 02:06:15 PM
Republican ideas always end up costing more in the long run, ask Rick Parry.

On the other end of the spectrum, the increased unplanned births resulting from Texas' cuts are expected to cost taxpayers an estimated additional $273 million in medical expenses and Medicaid coverage. Link
 
2013-03-21 02:07:06 PM

zarberg: skullkrusher: 12349876: skullkrusher: more toll roads is probably a better solution

Which would then basically be a mileage tax.  You'd have to go beyond the freeways to make that a solution.

mileage tax based on vehicle size makes more sense than a fuel tax anyway

Would we all end up getting "taxed" for that because truck transportation expenses would go up?


possibly but trucks do more damage to roads so it makes sense for them to pay more
 
2013-03-21 02:07:38 PM
How are the jobs going in WI Mr. Walker........farking potato.
 
2013-03-21 02:08:15 PM

skullkrusher: 12349876: skullkrusher: more toll roads is probably a better solution

Which would then basically be a mileage tax.  You'd have to go beyond the freeways to make that a solution.

mileage tax based on vehicle size makes more sense than a fuel tax anyway


Yup, use the gross weight of the vehicle as some sort of multiplier on the mileage.  Heavier vehicles cause more road wear.  Would not be very popular with the I need a Caddy Escalade EXT for soccer practice pick up folks.
 
2013-03-21 02:08:44 PM
"We understand the difference between investing in an asset that has value and adds value to economic activity as opposed to general spending," said Rich Studley, president of the Michigan Chamber of Commerce.

What the fark do they think general spending is? It goes to teachers, firemen, police and infrastructure. It's not just thrown into a farking ditch.
 
2013-03-21 02:09:00 PM

wingnut396: "A hundred and twenty bucks is a lot, especially for minimum-wage people," said April Steen, 28, a Lansing nurse who said potholes had bent her rims three times.

Seems to me $10 a month would be a pretty good investment to not have the road destroy your car.  That is if you can actually trust the State to properly use the funds, but that is a different argument.


At this point in time I would trust the state - even having worked for state government - to actually use the funds more than I would trust a private company to not find every which way to bilk the taxpayers and funnel the funds as efficiently as possible to the few that run said private company.
 
2013-03-21 02:10:32 PM
Now if people/companies  paid for the CO2 they are releasing into the atmosphere instead of having the general tax payer pay for it.
 
2013-03-21 02:12:43 PM
This is just a liberal plot from Kenyan mathematics
 
2013-03-21 02:13:00 PM

Mr_H: As a mid Michigan resident I'd like to know one thing:  Will that be enough money?  Cause some of these roads are bad.  Like, really, really bad.  I've lived in a number of states and I think MI has the worse roads I've ever been in.


You have clearly never visited WV.

Farking overloaded coal trucks farking up the roads and bridges.
 
2013-03-21 02:14:40 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: Fun part is the news that came out showing ALL of Wisconsin's counties have budget issues now and their unemployment went UP. How's life for all of you Koch suckers?



3.bp.blogspot.com

Job Growth, Wisconsin (red) and nationwide (blue).

Walker's planning lots of road building projects. Walker's planning on paying for road building projects by not raising taxes but selling a few things the State currently owns, instead.

The assets he wants to sell? Those power plants that he was going to sell to the Kochs a year or two ago, plus a few $billion in unspecified "other assets" since the power plants aren't quite worth $6,400,000,000.00 by themselves. I'm not aware of anything else the State owns that would fetch a big pile of cash on the open market right now, unless he's thinking of selling half the Southern Kettle Moraine to home builders. Or maybe office buildings which we'll then have to lease from a landlord henceforth, which strikes me as making absolutely no financial sense.

/the Kettle Moraine theory is purely speculation on my part
 
2013-03-21 02:15:06 PM

zarberg: wingnut396: "A hundred and twenty bucks is a lot, especially for minimum-wage people," said April Steen, 28, a Lansing nurse who said potholes had bent her rims three times.

Seems to me $10 a month would be a pretty good investment to not have the road destroy your car.  That is if you can actually trust the State to properly use the funds, but that is a different argument.

At this point in time I would trust the state - even having worked for state government - to actually use the funds more than I would trust a private company to not find every which way to bilk the taxpayers and funnel the funds as efficiently as possible to the few that run said private company.


I don't disagree with that.
 
2013-03-21 02:17:22 PM

Corvus: "We understand the difference between investing in an asset that has value and adds value to economic activity as opposed to general spending," said Rich Studley, president of the Michigan Chamber of Commerce.

What the fark do they think general spending is? It goes to teachers, firemen, police and infrastructure. It's not just thrown into a farking ditch.


I think the point is that the fuel tax is specifically earmarked for infrastructure development which has a direct impact on economic development. You invest the money in a tangible asset which boosts commerce while getting the benefit of the expenditure on the economy in general.
Please, do try to remain calm.
 
2013-03-21 02:18:26 PM

Citrate1007: How are the jobs going in WI Mr. Walker........farking potato.


Jobs?? We're number 44! Six states are lousier than we are! Yay!
 
2013-03-21 02:20:34 PM

skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: TheGogmagog: jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?

I was told private industry would pay for the roads.  They don't need government help for anything.

who told you that?

[progressivemetrowestsouth.files.wordpress.com image 450x435]

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

You should look into who owns the I-90 toll road here in Indiana.  I'll give you a hint: It's not even an American operation.

but it's basically run as a utility, isn't it? Under lease from the state with restrictions on fees and requirements for condition?

Sure, they do need to use some of the money for upkeep and operational costs, but it is still privately owned and operating to make a personal profit for the company that owns it.

It's also operated horribly with, oftentimes, no toll attendants on duty and really shoddy maintenance.

I don't have much of an issue with major roads being run as utilities by private entities as long there are sensible restrictions in place and enforced. If it can make fiscal sense for a state to do it, then do it. Purely private major roads would be a terrible, terrible idea.


The way we did it in Illinois, we took a lump sum payment in return for a 99 year lease.  It's the equivalent of taking the lump sum lottery payment instead of the installments.  But it sure looked great for the politicians who balanced the budget that one year.  It's not about making fiscal sense, it's about making political sense.  It's politicians who want a huge wad of cash to lower taxes and put up pretty buildings now and who cares what happens 50 years from now when the state has tens or hundreds of millions of dollars less in revenue.  Let those politicians deal with it.
 
2013-03-21 02:21:46 PM

lennavan: skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: Vodka Zombie: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: TheGogmagog: jake_lex: Wait, what, you're telling me that a decent infrastructure and functional government services might be a factor in getting business to locate in your state, not just tax breaks? What kind of voodoo economics is this?

I was told private industry would pay for the roads.  They don't need government help for anything.

who told you that?

[progressivemetrowestsouth.files.wordpress.com image 450x435]

heh good one. Still, I haven't heard of many people talking about the privatization of roads except the more ideologically driven right libertarians

You should look into who owns the I-90 toll road here in Indiana.  I'll give you a hint: It's not even an American operation.

but it's basically run as a utility, isn't it? Under lease from the state with restrictions on fees and requirements for condition?

Sure, they do need to use some of the money for upkeep and operational costs, but it is still privately owned and operating to make a personal profit for the company that owns it.

It's also operated horribly with, oftentimes, no toll attendants on duty and really shoddy maintenance.

I don't have much of an issue with major roads being run as utilities by private entities as long there are sensible restrictions in place and enforced. If it can make fiscal sense for a state to do it, then do it. Purely private major roads would be a terrible, terrible idea.

The way we did it in Illinois, we took a lump sum payment in return for a 99 year lease.  It's the equivalent of taking the lump sum lottery payment instead of the installments.  But it sure looked great for the politicians who balanced the budget that one year.  It's not about making fiscal sense, it's about making political sense.  It's politicians who want a huge wad of cash to lower taxes and put up pretty buildings now and who cares what happens 50 years from now when the state has tens or hu ...


the hazards of having a government run by people I suppose
 
2013-03-21 02:22:06 PM
Quick summary; Tax cuts enacted to spur job growth, job growth did not happen instead massive job losses mostly due to an over-leveraged housing market that collapsed, tax revenues decreased leaving less money for infrastructure projects and maint. now they want to raise taxes on gas which will primarily impact the folks who can least afford it. Seems like a series of bad ideas coming together as one big gang-bang on the middle class.
 
2013-03-21 02:22:21 PM

Corvus: Now if people/companies  paid for the CO2 they are releasing into the atmosphere instead of having the general tax payer pay for it.


A flat tax on a unit of carbon based fuel should take care of that.
 
2013-03-21 02:22:51 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: So, Snyder has to fix 8 yrs. of Ganholm's ineptitude.  Or does 0bama own exclusive rights to that excuse?


Because John Engler left things in such great shape.

Vodka Zombie: G. Gordon Libbie: Sell Ambassador Bridge
*ducks*

Ummm....  Isn't that bridge already privately owned?


[thatsthejoke.jpg]
 
2013-03-21 02:27:19 PM
Also, from recent meetings I've had with the FHWA, seems that the upper weight limit for trucks is being moved to 100,000lbs from 80k. So if you think roads are taking a beating now, juuuust wait. Not sure who exactly is lobbying the FHWA to get this thru but its happening...
 
2013-03-21 02:29:40 PM

BarkingUnicorn: "They also like the simple idea behind it."

That is the crux of every GOP motive!

When does life begin?  "Conception" keeps it simple.
When does rape occur? "Only when it leaves obvious wounds" keeps it simple.
What should government do? "As little as possible" keeps it simple.
Where is moral authority? "In one book" keeps it simple.


I think you're on to something
 
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