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(Gallup)   On the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war, 53% of Americans say the war was a mistake. The other 47% are still deciding between disaster, debacle or catastrophe   (gallup.com ) divider line 174
    More: Obvious, Iraq, Americans, United States, Iraq War, attitude change, the leaner, double coverage, John McCain  
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1332 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Mar 2013 at 8:13 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-21 09:54:17 AM  
What are al-Qaeda up to these days? Haven't heard much from them, certainly not a 9/11.

How many Scuds has Iraq lobbed at Israel lately? It seems they've shut down their WMD program for good this time, instead of re-starting it every decade. Wonder how that happened.

How much funding do terrorists get from Iraq these days? I see... they seem underfunded of late. Maybe there's a connection.
 
2013-03-21 09:54:43 AM  

jso2897: "stop the spread of communism", you are beyond any intellectual help I can provide you.

well they seem to do stupid fanatical shiat back in the day.  See McCarthyism.

jso2897: 1. Read "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler.


thank you.  I don't know how it relates to Vietnam yet, but it could.

jso2897: I'm an old man who is tired of wars, and the lies that are told to trick people into them. Go pester somebody else.


funny you keep coming to these threads to say your opinion, then don't try to explain it.  I hope you see how silly and ironic that is for someone who's too old and tired of wars.  If you have wisdom, impart it.  You want to yell at clouds, and expect us to not ask why?  Well then you can fark off too.
 
2013-03-21 09:56:38 AM  

DamnYankees: I mean, I could go down the list and continue on, but you get the point. I was wrong about EVERY. GOD. DAMNED. THING. It is amazing I could tie my shoes in 2001-2004. If you took all the wrongness I generated, put it together and compacted it and processed it, there would be enough concentrated stupid to fuel three hundred years of Weekly Standard journals. I am not sure how I snapped out of it, but I think Abu Ghraib and the negative impact of the insurgency did sober me up a bit.

War should always be an absolute last resort, not just another option. I will never make the same mistakes again.


Let's face facts.  We, the American People, were conned by our government.  We were lied to by our government.  In the wake of 9/11, we were living in fear that something like that could happen again, and it opened us up for the lies.  I admit I bought into them.  I was wrong to do so.

I know many people have pointed out that the Democrats were in on this, that they also believed the WMDs existed well before Bush got into power.  The difference is they didn't throw American lives and trillions of dollars down the toilet to force the regime change.

There has been enough evidence presented that Bush II had his sights set on Saddam when he took office, and that 9/11 and Afghanistan were distractions to that goal.  And believe me, is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein and his sons in power?  Yes.  Was the price we paid and continue to pay worth that?  I don't believe so.

We can't fall for this again.

And despite John McCain insisting that this has all been properly investigating, we need to fully investigate the intelligence failures that led us into this war.  Enough with the Benghazi dog whistle already.
 
2013-03-21 09:57:41 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: It's obvious that they wanted to get rid of Saddam since the first Gulf War, they just had an opportunity finally after 9/11. Did he have WMDs? Maybe, probably not. Was he going to try to get them? Probably at some point. It's more obvious that we wanted free access to oil, which I kind of don't have a problem with as long as we're 1) honest about it and 2) the goddamn prices actually go down. Saddam was an issue though in that region and we eventually would have had to deal with him but we rushed it way too soon and without a proper plan.


I once read an article about the build up to the Iraq war. I think it was in Newsweek or some other US news magazine. They talked about how Saddam was in a really weird position. I mean he kept having to tell most of the world that he didn't have WMD's as to not piss off the US, as well as the UN and their weapons inspectors. But he was also still neighbors with Iran, and they weren't really on peaceful terms so as far as that goes, so with respect to them he kind of had to play up the fact that he did have WMD's.
 
2013-03-21 10:04:47 AM  
53% of Americans are right 100% of the time.
 
2013-03-21 10:05:59 AM  

thecpt: jso2897: "stop the spread of communism", you are beyond any intellectual help I can provide you.

well they seem to do stupid fanatical shiat back in the day.  See McCarthyism.

jso2897: 1. Read "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler.

thank you.  I don't know how it relates to Vietnam yet, but it could.

jso2897: I'm an old man who is tired of wars, and the lies that are told to trick people into them. Go pester somebody else.

funny you keep coming to these threads to say your opinion, then don't try to explain it.  I hope you see how silly and ironic that is for someone who's too old and tired of wars.  If you have wisdom, impart it.  You want to yell at clouds, and expect us to not ask why?  Well then you can fark off too.


Thank you for finally listening - and since I wouldn't wipe my ass with your opinion, whatever you want to say about me is fine by me.
 
2013-03-21 10:08:22 AM  
I'm leaning heavily towards debacle.
 
2013-03-21 10:09:20 AM  

jso2897: thecpt: jso2897: I don't tell war stories, and I never will. Sorry to disappoint you.

definitely not asking for war stories, just why you don't think it was to stop the spread of communism.  (seriously, every history book tries to say that.  not saying you're wrong, just asking what kind of racket you think it was)

You seem to have very poor reading comprehension. I thought I made it clear that I perceive you as a troll, who is trying to draw me into a conversation that had already bored me to tears by the late 1960s.
If you really believe in the veracity of meaningless strings of bullshiat like "stop the spread of communism", you are beyond any intellectual help I can provide you. I can recommend two things to you:
1. Read "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler.
2. Kindly have the good manners to f**k off, and leave me alone, as I have already made it clear that I wish you to do. I'm an old man who is tired of wars, and the lies that are told to trick people into them. Go pester somebody else.


When Gen Butler earned the two Medals of Honor, it was for fighting in Veracruz Mexico and Haiti. I wonder how many people alive today even knew we had troops fighting in those areas?
 
2013-03-21 10:10:13 AM  

EvilEgg: I fail to see how anyone cannot regard this adventure as a mistake. We went to find WMDs, we didn't find any. That is a mistake.

The only real question, if there is one, is what kind of mistake was it? Was a intelligence mistake, a diplomatic mistake, or a political mistake.


Yes.

It was an intelligence mistake: we built a war on shaky, poorly sourced intelligence.

It was a diplomatic mistake: we completely threw out diplomacy in a mad rush to war.

It was a political mistake: The Shrub wanted to prove he was better than daddy and actually get Hussein, and wanted to bang the war drums and be the Wartime President. . .never mind we were already fighting in Afghanistan.

It was a goddamn trillion dollar mistake.  If we'd taken that trillion dollars and spent it on other things we could have had a farking moonbase, men on Mars, a vastly updated and upgraded transportation and communications infrastructure, totally overhauled and upgraded public schools, and the best healthcare system on the planet. . .instead we got debt, a looted war-torn crater where Iraq was, defense contractors lining their pockets, and thousands upon thousands of bodies.
 
2013-03-21 10:14:49 AM  
"Fiasco?"

"No, it isn't really a fiasco until someone has been set on fire..."

"Uh, I think probably a few people have been set on fire here..."

(Sorry, PA applies to everything...)
 
2013-03-21 10:16:28 AM  

The Muthaship: Got rid of Saddam, and gave them a chance to have a country governed in whatever way the people want.  Awful.


Yes, so far it has turned out to be pretty awful.  Saddam wouldn't let the shiates kill the Sunis and vice versa, or let both of them kill the Christians.  Now, there is nothing stopping them.  The oldest Christian community in the world is gone, and far more Iraqis have been killed since Saddam was removed from power than he ever managed to kill.  I don't know if the Kurds are doing better or not--so far as I know, neither the shiates nor the Sunis are fond of them, either.
 
2013-03-21 10:17:24 AM  

purdeyisa10: jso2897: thecpt: jso2897: I don't tell war stories, and I never will. Sorry to disappoint you.

definitely not asking for war stories, just why you don't think it was to stop the spread of communism.  (seriously, every history book tries to say that.  not saying you're wrong, just asking what kind of racket you think it was)

You seem to have very poor reading comprehension. I thought I made it clear that I perceive you as a troll, who is trying to draw me into a conversation that had already bored me to tears by the late 1960s.
If you really believe in the veracity of meaningless strings of bullshiat like "stop the spread of communism", you are beyond any intellectual help I can provide you. I can recommend two things to you:
1. Read "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler.
2. Kindly have the good manners to f**k off, and leave me alone, as I have already made it clear that I wish you to do. I'm an old man who is tired of wars, and the lies that are told to trick people into them. Go pester somebody else.

When Gen Butler earned the two Medals of Honor, it was for fighting in Veracruz Mexico and Haiti. I wonder how many people alive today even knew we had troops fighting in those areas?


Anyway - if these comic-book-reading little snotnoses want to learn - they should go fight in a war themselves - there'll always be one.
The "stop the spread of communism" hustle is old and busted, as is the "yellow peril". The new one is the "war on Terror". I mean, who wouldn't want to join up for the "War on Terror", right? I mean, "terror" is bad, right?
There will always be another generation of young, stupid assholes willing to go bleed and die for whatever horseshiat some preacher or politician sells them. It's Darwin's way.
 
2013-03-21 10:18:05 AM  

jso2897: Also, there's the direct knowledge factor - I , for instance, got drafted in 1968. Nobody will ever be able to fool me that the Vietnam war was anything but a racket.


Thing is, the Vietnamese snookered everyone.

1941 -- Vietnam is an unhappy colony of Vichy France, and is dealing with the Japanese occupation. Annam (north) is more unhappy than Cochinchina (south). Supported by US, USSR, and "China".

It all rolls back to WWII, where the Viet Minh were part of the French Resistance, staying loyal to the Allies, such as it was, and fighting the Vichy government and the Japanese. They win, more or less, although it's a deferred win brokered by a phase-in treaty with France, Nationalist China, and Vietnam. Vietnam gets the French back, at least temporarily, but kicks the Chinese out.

1945 - Japanese out, Nationalist Chinese in.
1946 - French back in, Nationalist Chinese out.

Come 1946, de Gaulle and the "macquis" want to hear none of it, and decide to reimpose colonial government. This worked about as well in Vietnam as it did everywhere else outside of France -- this is to say, poorly. Vietnam eventually wins the 1st Indochina War, after getting the support of newly communist China. This results in the temporary state of a communist North Vietnam and a nominally imperial South Korea.

1954 - French out; communist Chinese have influence; USA in in South.

Now things get sticky. WWII has begotten the Cold War, and the various regional disputes about communism versus democracy. As poorly run as the South is, the North has just conducted a purge (as communisms were prone to do), and the Viet Minh are in tatters.

The US sees this as encroaching Russo-Chinese communism. As such, they back the South Vietnamese. Somewhat unappreciated is that the Soviets and the Chinese don't much care for each other. The US is involved in a low-level war of various heats from 1955 to 1975. Vietnam is primarily supported by the Russians, which the Chinese do not appreciate.

1975; US out, North Vietnam seizes and purges South Vietnam; communist Chinese out; Soviets have influence.

1978: Vietnam invades Cambodia, kicks out Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. This precipitates the Sino-Vietnamese war. Both sides claim victory. End result: Chinese out, Russians out, Vietnam remains independent, China and Russia nearly at state of war.

Basically, the Vietnam war did end up breaking communism, but only indirectly and accidentally, and it required the deaths and repudiations of both Stalin and Mao.

What everyone missed is that Vietnam saw all of these as colonial wars -- they fought against both Frances, the US, Cambodia, and China. They kicked out both the Kuomintang and the communist Chinese. They remained allies with the USSR because Russia didn't want a colony -- Russia wanted an asian Cuba. Unlike the others, Vietnam wasn't fighting ideological wars, it was fighting a very long war for independence. But no one really appreciated that until 1980.
 
2013-03-21 10:21:30 AM  

This text is now purple: What everyone missed is that Vietnam saw all of these as colonial wars -- they fought against both Frances, the US, Cambodia, and China. They kicked out both the Kuomintang and the communist Chinese. They remained allies with the USSR because Russia didn't want a colony -- Russia wanted an asian Cuba. Unlike the others, Vietnam wasn't fighting ideological wars, it was fighting a very long war for independence. But no one really appreciated that until 1980.


Exactly - my basic take on it was simple - they hated us, and wanted us gone, just like we would want foreign occupiers gone if they were in America. They found out that if they said some Marxist crap, the Russkis would give them guns - and not send troops. And believe me - man, woman, and child they hated us, and wanted us gone.
 
2013-03-21 10:24:30 AM  

sodomizer: What are al-Qaeda up to these days? Haven't heard much from them, certainly not a 9/11.


What does that have to do with Iraq?  There was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq until we invaded, and they took advantage of the recruiting opportunity we created.

How many Scuds has Iraq lobbed at Israel lately? It seems they've shut down their WMD program for good this time, instead of re-starting it every decade. Wonder how that happened.

Were they lobbing and Scuds at Israel at any time other than when we were fighting a war with them?

How much funding do terrorists get from Iraq these days? I see... they seem underfunded of late. Maybe there's a connection.

The big funding was coming from Saudi Arabia, our alleged ally.
 
2013-03-21 10:28:22 AM  
Meh, everybody is looking back and saying "How could we have been so stupid, well we won't do that again.", just like they said after Vietnam. Guess what, in another 20-30 years the US will probably be stupid and make exactly the same mistake again, it is inevitable.

The problem is we are the biggest baddest military force on the planet and the urge to use that force to accomplish goals set by politicians who don't have to pay the price is irresistible.  So, sure you farkers are saying now that it was a mistake and we won't do that again, but just like after Vietnam you will forget, you will think you can win, and will continue to spend this countries blood and resources in third world shiat holes. It is inevitable.
 
2013-03-21 10:29:51 AM  

DamnYankees: To quote from John Cole, since it sums me up as well:

I see that Andrew Sullivan was asked to list what he got wrong about Iraq for the five year anniversary of the invasion, and since I was as big a war booster as anyone, I thought I would list what I got wrong:

Everything.

And I don't say that to provide people with an easy way to beat up on me, but I do sort of have to face facts. I was wrong about everything.

I was wrong about the Doctrine of Pre-emptive warfare.
I was wrong about Iraq possessing WMD.
I was wrong about Scott Ritter and the inspections.
I was wrong about the UN involvement in weapons inspections.
I was wrong about the containment sanctions.
I was wrong about the broader impact of the war on the Middle East.
I was wrong about this making us more safe.
I was wrong about the number of troops needed to stabilize Iraq.
I was wrong when I stated this administration had a clear plan for the aftermath.
I was wrong about securing the ammunition dumps.
I was wrong about the ease of bringing democracy to the Middle East.
I was wrong about dissolving the Iraqi army.
I was wrong about the looting being unimportant.
I was wrong that Bush/Cheney were competent.
I was wrong that we would be greeted as liberators.
I was wrong to make fun of the anti-war protestors.
I was wrong not to trust the dirty smelly hippies.

I mean, I could go down the list and continue on, but you get the point. I was wrong about EVERY. GOD. DAMNED. THING. It is amazing I could tie my shoes in 2001-2004. If you took all the wrongness I generated, put it together and compacted it and processed it, there would be enough concentrated stupid to fuel three hundred years of Weekly Standard journals. I am not sure how I snapped out of it, but I think Abu Ghraib and the negative impact of the insurgency did sober me up a bit.

War should always be an absolute last resort, not just another option. I will never make the same mistakes again.


Don't worry about, you and 90% of the US were wrong. Don't beat your self up about it, because in 20-30 years we will have forgotten the lesson of Iraq, just like we forgot the lesson of Vietnam and we will do this shiat all over again.
 
2013-03-21 10:29:57 AM  

Silverstaff: EvilEgg: I fail to see how anyone cannot regard this adventure as a mistake. We went to find WMDs, we didn't find any. That is a mistake.

The only real question, if there is one, is what kind of mistake was it? Was a intelligence mistake, a diplomatic mistake, or a political mistake.

Yes.

It was an intelligence mistake: we built a war on shaky, poorly sourced intelligence.

It was a diplomatic mistake: we completely threw out diplomacy in a mad rush to war.

It was a political mistake: The Shrub wanted to prove he was better than daddy and actually get Hussein, and wanted to bang the war drums and be the Wartime President. . .never mind we were already fighting in Afghanistan.

It was a goddamn trillion dollar mistake.  If we'd taken that trillion dollars and spent it on other things we could have had a farking moonbase, men on Mars, a vastly updated and upgraded transportation and communications infrastructure, totally overhauled and upgraded public schools, and the best healthcare system on the planet. . .instead we got debt, a looted war-torn crater where Iraq was, defense contractors lining their pockets, and thousands upon thousands of bodies.


Ahh, you miss the "good news" Shrub and his loose cannon frat bros PROFITED in the $Billions.
Farkin' week ass GOP and McCain had their lunch stolen and all we got in return is the poison pill, Palin.
 
2013-03-21 10:33:10 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: Meh, everybody is looking back and saying "How could we have been so stupid, well we won't do that again.", just like they said after Vietnam. Guess what, in another 20-30 years the US will probably be stupid and make exactly the same mistake again, it is inevitable.

The problem is we are the biggest baddest military force on the planet and the urge to use that force to accomplish goals set by politicians who don't have to pay the price is irresistible.  So, sure you farkers are saying now that it was a mistake and we won't do that again, but just like after Vietnam you will forget, you will think you can win, and will continue to spend this countries blood and resources in third world shiat holes. It is inevitable.


USA, the best war machine money can buy.

/for rent, highest bidder, oil, opium, pipelines, gold, what you need?
 
2013-03-21 10:34:04 AM  

dr_blasto: Bravo Two: Unfortunately, when you have people that control the sources of information, and feed bad intel to the president, the president isn't going to go out of his way to go around them and fact-check what his advisers are spouting. It's their job to, you know, get it right.

I recall that efforts to produce contradictory intelligence to the whole WMD thing were roundly dismissed by the administration. Was it Cheney or Bush that refused to see anything that showed Iraq to be a non-threat? Who really knows. In the end, between the WMD lie and the allusions to 9/11 support that were non-existent showed the administration was going in regardless of reason, logic or conscience. Tenet gets a medal for contributing to the fiasco, thousands of Americans die, tens of thousands have their lives destroyed and nearly one million Iraqis freed from their existence.

At this point, it would take a pretty big leap for me to believe Bush was fed bad intelligence and is this sort of child-like innocent in the fiasco. We went to war; we should not have--if it was because he was legitimately misinformed, that is still on him.


I don't doubt that Bush wanted to show the world he had balls bigger than his father, and thought it was the right thing to do, despite whatever reasons it was pushed in the first place.

I guess my point is that the whole thing was a cluster from the top down, and no one, except maybe bush, was really honest about wanting to go to war, even if doing so was the wrong thing.
 
2013-03-21 10:34:35 AM  

Silverstaff: It was a goddamn trillion dollar mistake.  If we'd taken that trillion dollars and spent it on other things we could have had a farking moonbase, men on Mars, a vastly updated and upgraded transportation and communications infrastructure, totally overhauled and upgraded public schools, and the best healthcare system on the planet. . .instead we got debt, a looted war-torn crater where Iraq was, defense contractors lining their pockets, and thousands upon thousands of bodies.


SIX trillion, by the time it's all totted up, according to a new study.

so yeah - there's education, universal healthcare, infrastructure (and the jobs that go with it) all down the farking tubes. no republican should EVER be allowed to speak on an economic issue again after this war.
 
2013-03-21 10:36:18 AM  

gja: dr_blasto: The question that remains is "why?"

Three words:
Follow......the........money.


Three letters:
O....I.....L
 
2013-03-21 10:41:14 AM  
What's wrong with some people? Iraq and Afghanistan have sucked the life blood out of our economy and worn down our military. What have we gained from it? We killed Bin Laden I guess, but thousands of American lives for this on guy, how good a deal was that?
 
2013-03-21 10:43:10 AM  
It's funny how the Republicans had their big nominating convention and their most recent two term President was nowhere to be seen, and was never mentioned.  He's a pariah in the party now.  I think they're afraid to put him in front of a crowd with an open mike, he might break down crying, or worse, start telling the truth.  I'd LOVE to hear GWB go off on a thirty minute rant about his time in office, with no one able to interrupt him.
 
2013-03-21 10:44:33 AM  

cirrhosis_and_halitosis: Three letters:
O....I.....L


This phrase is a useful trigger for determining who in the thread is part of the derp brigade.

What country do you think trades internationally for Iraqi oil the most?
 
2013-03-21 10:45:18 AM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I'd LOVE to hear GWB go off on a thirty minute rant about his time in office, with no one able to interrupt him.


There's always this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-21 10:47:40 AM  
purdeyisa10:

When Gen Butler earned the two Medals of Honor, it was for fighting in Veracruz Mexico and Haiti. I wonder how many people alive today even knew we had troops fighting in those areas?

Hell, I just found out the other day we had U.S. troops in Siberia during the Bolshevik Revolution.
 
2013-03-21 10:54:32 AM  

Close2TheEdge: The Muthaship: Got rid of Saddam, and gave them a chance to have a country governed in whatever way the people want.  Awful.

Which likely would have happened by itself without the cost of BILLIONS TRILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS more soldiers have come home to commit suicide than were killed in battle of lives.

Yes, it was awful


Fixed that for everyone
 
2013-03-21 10:57:16 AM  

FlashHarry: Silverstaff: It was a goddamn trillion dollar mistake.  If we'd taken that trillion dollars and spent it on other things we could have had a farking moonbase, men on Mars, a vastly updated and upgraded transportation and communications infrastructure, totally overhauled and upgraded public schools, and the best healthcare system on the planet. . .instead we got debt, a looted war-torn crater where Iraq was, defense contractors lining their pockets, and thousands upon thousands of bodies.

SIX trillion, by the time it's all totted up, according to a new study.

so yeah - there's education, universal healthcare, infrastructure (and the jobs that go with it) all down the farking tubes. no republican should EVER be allowed to speak on an economic issue again after this war.


You still call Bush a Republican?
I think not.
He and Rove did give us a lesson on how to steal the whole shiateree, so there is that.
I do not buy into the crap about you only have the two choices.
It can be beaten.
 
2013-03-21 10:57:31 AM  
By the way - it is not to say that America could have avoided every single war we've ever gotten into. I have trouble seeing any way we could have avoided the two wars against British occupation. The Civil War, tragically, seems like it would have been nearly impossible to avoid, the way things went down. And I can even give us a pass for getting into WWII - the world was on fire, and our house was going to burn one way or the other.
But that's about it. I can't think of any other wars we've fought that were anything but rackets to enrich and empower a wealthy and powerful few. And we never, ever,ever seem to learn.
 
2013-03-21 11:00:37 AM  

whyRpeoplesostupid: Close2TheEdge: The Muthaship: Got rid of Saddam, and gave them a chance to have a country governed in whatever way the people want.  Awful.

Which likely would have happened by itself without the cost of BILLIONS TRILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS more soldiers have come home to commit suicide than were killed in battle of lives.

Yes, it was awful

Fixed that for everyone


Thank you, but you forgot to point out that the Bush administration gutted veterans benefits to pay for the war and the Obama administration has not increased funding enough. I know we are in hard financial times but our soldiers deserve to be taken care of and if that means we have to raise tax to do it then by GOD it is our Patriotic duty to raise taxes.
 
2013-03-21 11:04:45 AM  

The Irresponsible Captain: What's wrong with some people? Iraq and Afghanistan have sucked the life blood out of our economy and worn down our military. What have we gained from it? We killed Bin Laden I guess, but thousands of American lives for this on guy, how good a deal was that?


Except Bin Laden was killed for relatively little money (no idea how much that kind of thing costs, but other than some wear-and-tear on equipment, the only big ticket item would be 1 trashed helicopter, right?) by a few people and some good old-fashioned intelligence work. It had nothing to do with Iraq whatsoever. Also, it was done under Obama.
 
2013-03-21 11:10:19 AM  
Thousands of Americans volunteered to go kill the men who murdered thousands of Americans on 9-11. Instead they were sent by oil men to fight an oil war.

I'd call that a crime. And America let those rich oil men do it. I'd call that a crime, too.
 
2013-03-21 11:18:25 AM  
I was raised a Republican and both I and my very conservative father thinks it was a mistake.
 
2013-03-21 11:20:51 AM  
That's why they sent our guys over there under equipped, with out enough body armor or plating and other supplies.  Because not utilizing the military industrial complex supply store draws attention away from the conspiracy.
 
2013-03-21 11:22:47 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: Thank you, but you forgot to point out that the Bush administration gutted veterans benefits to pay for the war and the Obama administration has not increased funding enough. I know we are in hard financial times but our soldiers deserve to be taken care of and if that means we have to raise tax to do it then by GOD it is our Patriotic duty to raise taxes.


I agree we need to raise taxes, and I agree we need to take better care of our returning veterans.

But Obama can't just snap his fingers and increase funds.  We need Congress to do that and the GOP-led House doesn't give a damn about increasing this funding.
 
2013-03-21 11:24:08 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Thousands of Americans volunteered to go kill the men who murdered thousands of Americans on 9-11. Instead they were sent by oil men to fight an oil war.

I'd call that a crime. And America let those rich oil men do it. I'd call that a crime, too.


It's always been a double lie. Back in me and my dad's day, the bosses told us that the Russians were coming to get us, and if we didn't get our asses shot off in irrelevant shiatholes like Korea and Vietnam, they'd be marching up Fifth Avenue and Wilshire Blvd. any day now. meanwhile, the same lying asshole were telling poor, starving Ivan that all he had to do was starve, live under the threat of nuclear annihilation , and get HIS ass shot off in some shiathole like Afghanistan (while meanwhile trying to scratch a living out of his shabby beet-patch) and the capitalist running dogs would be defeated forever, and the Worker's Paradise would come to be. And all those bums, in Washington, Moscow and Wall street lved high, while poor men died and got crippled for their wealth, power, and comfort.
Today, we convince poor dumb Cletus. Trayvonne, and Ricardo that they need to go fight "terrorism" in some other shiathole on the other side of the planet, unless they want to wake up living under Sharia law tomorrow, and have Taylor Swift put into some Imam's harem and forced to wear a veil (probably not a bad idea, but that's for the "Entertainment" tab).Meanwhile, of course, poor broke, unlaid Achmed is being preached to by some smelly Mulah that all he has to do is strap some dynamite on and blow himself to hell enough times,and the infidel dogs and the modernism they represent will magically vanish from the world, and Allah's eternal paradise will be ushered in. And the liars get rich and powerful, and the little assholes die.
So it goes, and so it WILL go until we all wise the f**k up.
 
2013-03-21 11:24:15 AM  

This text is now purple: cirrhosis_and_halitosis: Three letters:
O....I.....L

This phrase is a useful trigger for determining who in the thread is part of the derp brigade.

What country do you think trades internationally for Iraqi oil the most?


The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were a means for establishing more military bases in the Middle East  to secure the area for western oil companies.  Just as old British Empire military adventures were a means of opening and securing areas for their corporate interests so it is in the age of American Empire.

Do you think that the US would give a flying Fark about the Middle East if they didn't have large oil reserves?  Have you also noticed that the only African countries that our government has taken an interest in also coincidentally have large undeveloped oil reserves?

Our economy is entirely based on oil, and it will be obtained by any means necessary...
 
2013-03-21 11:27:37 AM  
I was opposed from the start enough to write to both my senators and congressman. I still have their lame assed replies.
 
2013-03-21 11:39:17 AM  

dr_blasto: EvilEgg: I fail to see how anyone cannot regard this adventure as a mistake. We went to find WMDs, we didn't find any. That is a mistake.

The only real question, if there is one, is what kind of mistake was it? Was a intelligence mistake, a diplomatic mistake, or a political mistake.

It wasn't a mistake. It was completely intentional and the administration knew what it was doing. The administration misled Congress and the general population intentionally. I think they even lied to themselves at various stages. The question that remains is "why?"


Was arguing about Iraq on another forum; one of the Freepers there said that the invasion was a just cause to free the Iraqi people, and that Saddam really had chemical weapons that he covertly shipped to Syria so we couldn't find them. Then he went on to say that the war was a failure because Obama and the 'leftist Democrats' withdrew the troops and let the US be a failure in front of the world.

I replied that whatever he's smoking must be good quality.
 
2013-03-21 11:41:06 AM  
It's only a mistake if you didn't profit from it.
 
2013-03-21 12:05:56 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I was raised a Republican and both I and my very conservative father thinks it was a mistake.


Unquestioning allegiance is a big mistake.
'Course, It took 30-40 years to figure that out myself.
Took my Dad 50-60, so I take that as progress.

The second big mistake is not prosecuting the falsifiers, like a rabid dog, hunt and destroy.
 
2013-03-21 12:23:15 PM  
Here is a great article, from CNN no less, detailing the entire Iraq farce.

I must also expose myself to inevitable ridicule by stating that I am a 9/11 truther.  It took me a lot of reading, watching, and wrestling with my conscience to finally be convinced but now there is no doubt in my mind that Cheney and cohorts got the ball rolling to enable their agenda.
 
2013-03-21 12:26:09 PM  
 
2013-03-21 12:33:10 PM  
Third time is the charm...
 
2013-03-21 12:33:11 PM  
Seemed appropriate for the helping select the right word.  Fiasco is still in the running.art.penny-arcade.com
 
2013-03-21 12:47:50 PM  
My college roommate once said he, "would probably be a liberal if [he] wasn't planning on making a lot of money." It's been awhile, but I believe that was the exact quote. Of course that required him to abandon everything that would have made him the least bit liberal. It was college and I guess he was figuring things out. Unfortunately it involved him running around laughing and cheering in the common room as my entire floor watched that first news coverage of war raging in the background. I'd never been so disgusted.
 
2013-03-21 01:09:53 PM  

cirrhosis_and_halitosis: This text is now purple: cirrhosis_and_halitosis: Three letters:
O....I.....L

This phrase is a useful trigger for determining who in the thread is part of the derp brigade.

What country do you think trades internationally for Iraqi oil the most?

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were a means for establishing more military bases in the Middle East  to secure the area for western oil companies.  Just as old British Empire military adventures were a means of opening and securing areas for their corporate interests so it is in the age of American Empire.

Do you think that the US would give a flying Fark about the Middle East if they didn't have large oil reserves?  Have you also noticed that the only African countries that our government has taken an interest in also coincidentally have large undeveloped oil reserves?

Our economy is entirely based on oil, and it will be obtained by any means necessary...


You're leaving out the war for oil in Libya.

It's no coincidence that Wikileaked State Department cables show that Gaddafi had been threatening to throw western oil firms out of his nation just before we invaded and forced a regime change.
 
2013-03-21 01:10:22 PM  

Terrydatroll: bulldg4life: Terrydatroll: If it was a mistake then it was a mistake by all of America. No one that I personally know was against it when it started and it was all but lauded by the entire country, even hard core democrats in Washington. Now after 10 years...sure..hindsight says we could have done more good by spending that money and effort in Afghanistan, but at the time it seemed the right thing to do. Second guessing it now is nothing more than self destruction. The problem with Iraq was that once it was started then it had to be finished regardless of the right/wrong of the war. Some wars a re justifiable, some are not, but they can all be classified as mistakes if examined closely enough.

Sure, other than the dozens and dozens of anti-war protests for the several months between September and March in the run up to the invasion.

You personally knew some goddamn idiots.

Either that or you were surrounded by idiots. I think the latter.


To be fair "scared idiot" was the order of the day. Scared of "the terr-wrists" scared of being called "unpatriotic" if you spoke out. There was plenty of idiocy to go around and it wasn't just the uneducated and war mongers.

We need to learn how to do things outside of spastically trying to stave off the fear du jour. we let fear drive us and that drives us to do some very idiotic things.
 
2013-03-21 01:28:42 PM  
OK, so what are we little folk gonna do about Mr Bush?
 
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